Deseret News | Separation of church and dance

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Separation of church and dance

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Complainers | 1:22 a.m. Oct. 6, 2007

Seems like some people will find a reason to complain about anything. I'm sure that in heavily predominant Catholic areas of the country, student activities are scheduled around the needs of its population, and the smaller LDS community is left out of the decision making. Oh well, big deal. Life moves forward. High School students could care less about when dances are held, only that they are held. It's the hyper-sensitive parents that cause the concerns, and stir the pot.

Murrays BigD | 1:27 a.m. Oct. 6, 2007

Find me the spot where it says separation of church and state. It is not written in the constitution. It simply states that the state will have no say in determining a religion. I think it was a smart move and for someone to say that they are livid about it is just taking it too far. Chill out and learn to get along. I'm sure the school will change upcoming activities should they conflict with a major other religious events. It really ticks me off when people start saying "separation of church and state," this is simply not possible, 90% of our country claims to be religious. In this case it was not a religious favoring just a smart move on the schools part to pay the bills. Minority rights never supercede the majorities. Read and understand your constitution before you start quoting from it words that are not in there.

JC | 1:47 a.m. Oct. 6, 2007

To complainers You are absolutely right I could not have said it any better. Bet this story is gonna stir up all those, hyper sensitive LDS haters here in Utah. It will it just give them another thing to complain about, even though they really don't need one.

Comments continue below

Anonymous | 3:31 a.m. Oct. 6, 2007

rock on murray high!

Problem? | 3:35 a.m. Oct. 6, 2007

I'm sorry but it seems to me like the school did exactly what it should have. It listened to the students and parents and met their needs.

What is the problem?

Wow | 3:38 a.m. Oct. 6, 2007

As an MHS alum I'm saddened by this. However, this only proves to me that putting my daughter in private school is the right thing to do.

Boston Terry | 3:39 a.m. Oct. 6, 2007

You are right, in heavily Catholic areas accomodations are made for the predominate religion and the LDS don't get livid about it. I suppose it is best to choose your battles. This one is pretty minor.

Reality Check | 4:51 a.m. Oct. 6, 2007

Sorry, "Complainers", but that was pretty lame. Please point specifically to the heavily predominant Catholic areas of the country that behave similarly before making such an audacious, pathetic knee-jerk defense. This is a local issue, not a national one. As well, my child who attends Murray is neither LDS or Catholic and was very bothered by the way Murray student officers and staff mandated that change without even a pretense of inviting commentary or suggestions from non-LDS students. I heard student complaints weeks ago. So, you are wrong that it is "hyper sensitive parents" that cause the concern. If such parents are hyper sensitive at all it is because certain adults condone and defend such behavior, insuring that such boorish, selfish, and inconsiderate traits continue through generations. As for the story itself, the excuse that restaurant reservations had to be made, etc, is a poor diversion. Kids dine all over the valley and make day long events of high school dances throughout the area as well. Accept it MHS--you show little regard for the minorities among you.

Craig | 6:28 a.m. Oct. 6, 2007

Don't you get sick and tired of complaints about separation of church and state in the schools? Another reason we need vouchers! Go vouchers!!

Rick | 6:30 a.m. Oct. 6, 2007

I agree. This isn't about separation of church and state--it's a DANCE, for crying out loud--It's about economics pure and simple. They knew they wouldn't get enough people tonight because of Conference. I agree they should be sensitive when possible to other faiths' major activities as well, and I think parents who really think about it honestly will find that our communities and schools usually are.

Mr. T | 6:42 a.m. Oct. 6, 2007

Interesting that state girls' tennis tournament has been held on conference for as many years as I can remember. Don't the UHSAA leaders realize that "when the Mormons meet, the heavens weep" and it's hard to play tennis in the rain? Maybe they need to take another look at their scheduling.

nottyou | 7:09 a.m. Oct. 6, 2007

I seem to remember observing Good Friday every year and I never complained about it being a Catholic event. Please get a freakin' clue.

Oh Well! | 7:11 a.m. Oct. 6, 2007

Let them go ahead and have the dance when they want, they just won't have as many there and it might save some of the kids money on the expense of those kinds of activities.

Dude | 7:43 a.m. Oct. 6, 2007

Mrs. Smart,

Are you listening to yourself?! Of course the dance would be rescheduled if there was a big Catholic conference, or Lutheran conference, etc..... It just so happens that there are a large part of the student body happens to be LDS and the school is trying to make sure that the majority of the students who want to be involved, can be involved. These crazy parents, (obviously whom are strongly opposed to the LDS church) seem to be so conceded and wanting to make this a story, that they don't care about their children's friends, who happen to be LDS who want to attend this dance. Most of the students don't even care about the change.

Mom/Teacher | 7:43 a.m. Oct. 6, 2007

This is not a "separation of church and state" issue. It is about a large number of students who could not attend a school event. The same consideration would be given to an athletic conference or other program which involves many students in the school. If the date of a school dance for students (not parents) is a serious problem for Mrs. Smart, perhaps she would be happier elsewhere.

suttonhoo | 7:45 a.m. Oct. 6, 2007

Lighen up. When I was a boy, school lunches always included fish on Fridays to accomodate Catholic dietary practices. This was in a predominantly LDS community, and no one complained. When I lived in Texas, the schools often arranged schedules around Baptist activities and plans, and no one complained. All over the country schools plan activity schedules around religious activities to allow students to avoid conflicts. There is no state/religion conflict in doing so.

Jamie | 7:50 a.m. Oct. 6, 2007

I praise those officials that recognize those traditions and make accomidations for those students. This is a big deal for those families that are LDS and rearrainging the schedule to accomdate them is wonderful! Thank you!

Truer words... | 7:52 a.m. Oct. 6, 2007

Echoing the words of complainer above, in New York they close a bunch of things on Saint Patrick's day, have a huge parade that has catholic overtones but other groups are not left out. What do the LDS and other religious groups do there? They attend the parade! School is out, they don't whine that they'd rather be there, do they?

Taylor Newser | 7:59 a.m. Oct. 6, 2007

In our Texas town, no town events are scheduled on Wednesday nights as that is Baptist youth activity and adult sunday school night. Also, the Fourth of July celebration (at Sheppard Air Force Base) was moved to Saturday when it fell on Sunday... No cries for church/state separation that I am aware of.

Jim | 8:29 a.m. Oct. 6, 2007

I applaud Murray High's student leaders for for their sensitivity toward those of the predominant religion in the Salt Lake Valley and hope they would similarly respect the religious practices of all students at Murray High. Unfortunately, some think that "Separation of Church and State" means that decisions in public institutions cannot be made by people who have religious beliefs--a shallow and bigoted perspective. Thank God we live in a country where we can be respectful of the beliefs of all!

Too much | 8:30 a.m. Oct. 6, 2007

It is one thing to accommodate a majority religion; it is entirely different to cater to it! This decision was wrong, the the LDS school authorities who made the decision should have abstained because they have a fundamental conflict of interest.

Majority rules | 8:35 a.m. Oct. 6, 2007

While our society has tried to accommodate the wishes of minority groups, it remains that when an event conflicts with another major event in which the majority of participants want to attend, then changes almost always occur.
If 80% of the school kids were avid deer hunters, then I'm sure if the dance conflicted with the annual deer hunt, it would be changed. If nearly everyone was a huge opera fan, they would move it if a "chance in a lifetime" opera was in town for a one-night show.
It's not a separation of church and state issue. It is an issue of an event that the majority of students see as a conflict.

A Mormon in Massachusetts | 8:37 a.m. Oct. 6, 2007

My family and I lived in a small community in Western Mass. Prom, School plays, team practices, etc., took place on Sunday afternoon and evening to accomadate the Catholic community who preferred Saturday evening Mass. To the women who was "livid" that this is something that only happens in Utah - get real. Sometimes, just sometimes, the majority rules. Get used to it - my family and I sure had to!

mimi | 8:46 a.m. Oct. 6, 2007

The dance wasn't cancelled, just rescheduled. BIG DEAL. Get hold of yourselves, people! Conference is the SAME weekend in October every year. Keep that in mind when scheduling homecoming. And for all non-LDS parents so actively concerned with your kids' social and athletic activities, why not take advantage of quiet Mondays to stay home with them and spend the evening together as a family.

Why Don't They Like Us? | 8:52 a.m. Oct. 6, 2007

Our State, Our Religion, Our Way or NO WAY.

Non-Mormon | 8:54 a.m. Oct. 6, 2007

If you want events moved for your schedule realize there are strength in numbers. This wasn't an LDS thing, this was a school realizing that they would lose half of the attendance to the dance. Just another group of STUPID people living in Utah and complaining about the Mormons.

Dave | 8:59 a.m. Oct. 6, 2007

Abby Smart if it was a different faith that delaid the dance you would have said noting about it.

RE | 9:00 a.m. Oct. 6, 2007

Oh come on people, let's get a grip on life!!

Kitenoa | 9:07 a.m. Oct. 6, 2007

Obviously those who complain about such routine decisions have "never" planned a dance in their life.

And if you did plan such a dance, no one came!

MEB | 9:14 a.m. Oct. 6, 2007

Separation of Church and State or not, wouldn't you want to plan the dance on a night when a majority of the students can attend? Knowing that more than half of the boys in your student body will likely be indisposed that night, wouldn't you want to take that into consideration so that you have a decent attendance?

Whaaaaa! | 9:17 a.m. Oct. 6, 2007

What a bunch of whiners! If you don't like it, LEAVE!

Reality | 9:18 a.m. Oct. 6, 2007

Like the first poster mentioned, this is common practice around the US. If an area is primarily Baptist, like in the south, many activities are planned around the church. It just happens that this area is primarily LDS. It's usually only a few in the minority that are really upset, usually not the kids.

Ken | 9:22 a.m. Oct. 6, 2007

Just example #46521893 of the tyranny of the majority.

Whatever | 9:42 a.m. Oct. 6, 2007

I agree with Oh Well! Have it when you will and let the chips fall. When I was engaged a shower had intially been scheduled the same Saturday of a RS broadcast. Some of the sister screamed about that so we changed the date. I can tell you with a certainty that those that complained and argued for the shower date to be changed DID NOT go to that broadcast. So I would be interested in knowing in how many of the students actually will go to conference.

Anonymous | 9:50 a.m. Oct. 6, 2007

I grew up in an area in the midwest where 99% of the people are Catholic. I was not LDS, but, yes, activities WERE scheduled around religious holidays that the Catholics celebrate. It did not bother me at all. As a matter of fact, I couldn't have cared less. We had Catholic High Schools, and no, games were not played on days of Catholic ovservances. Quit thinking that the LDS church is out to get you. Get a life and enjoy it. This is the way that life works. If the mojority of the people in the area are of one faith, or belief, of course the majority of the people are going to think the same, no matter what faith it is.

It's a dance | 10:07 a.m. Oct. 6, 2007

It's a dance! Let's all be livid over it! "My daughter and her date couldn't get reservations at Denny's because they changed the date! This is horrible! Who can I sue?" Choose something more important to cry about!

Murray | 10:07 a.m. Oct. 6, 2007

When you live somewhere and a majority of the students are not able to attend an event, it would be smart to change the event. As a coach in Oklahoma, you better believe that we did nothing on Wednesday night after 6:00 p.m. and we also had prayer before every activity. No one screamed about religion or preference, it was an understood principal of the community where we all tried to get along for the good of everyone. I had a lot of respect to the people there and the commitment they had. It did not matter to me and I had no desire to flame anyone else. i have great respect for the Oklahoma people. That is how it works with good people in good communities. No one has to move from communities nor do we want anyone to. Just work together for everyones benifit. With all good things come big challenges where everyone has to give.

Fred | 10:07 a.m. Oct. 6, 2007

How is this news? A school changes the date of a dance to accomodate the majority of its students. This is not newsworthy at all. It happens all the time. Why would anyone care when the dance is held?

Been around | 10:10 a.m. Oct. 6, 2007

I was raised in predominantly Mormon Utah, have lived in a predominantly Catholic area of Mass and a predominantly Jewish part of Boston. In my present neighborhood in suburban Chicago, Hinduism is probably the biggest religious block. In my experience, I have found that Catholics and Jews insist that their holy days be respected. Mormons don't have any holy days on weekdays, which is unique, but they are hyper-sensitive about Sunday. The predominant group that is least imposing on others is Hinduism. But honestly, how big of an imposition is it to honor a few holy days every year? In the places I have lived, I have never seen the 'minority' group gripe as loud as the non-LDS in Utah. This is a good example of the intolerance I'm talking about--people becoming "livid" over moving the date of a HS dance.

Hey Ken | 10:12 a.m. Oct. 6, 2007

Not just example "#46521893 of the tyranny of the majority" but the opinion of one and most especially not the opinion of the LDS if you know anything of the LDS Doctrine. In fact, your association on Whaaaaa to the "majority" is offensive as Whaaaaa does not represent the opinion of the majority. Besides, many people live here because of the so called majority and the great community.

David | 10:16 a.m. Oct. 6, 2007

It is not about accomodating a religion. It is about accomodating a significant portion of the students. Why schedule a dance at a time they know many will not attend.
When I lived in the North Shore of Chicago, Similar accomodations were made for the Jewish faith.

David | 10:29 a.m. Oct. 6, 2007

Having lived in an area that was predominantly Jewish, I know that schools in the Norht Shore of Chicago make similar scheduling choices. Why choose a date you now will conflict with many?

Far North | 10:33 a.m. Oct. 6, 2007

Just to put light on this - in the 80's in a very rural part of ND is where I grew up. We literally had a 2 room school house.... In our school there was a total of 28 elementary students. 26 were Lutheran and 2 were Catholic. We had fish on Fridays. I hate fish. I've always hated fish. I still hate fish. But for the 7 years I attened there, we had fish during lent on Fridays. Where were all you whiners then!?!

I think the word I was taught was TOLERANCE of other faiths. It's too bad the world has become him vs. me instead of being tolerant.

Eh. | 10:41 a.m. Oct. 6, 2007

i am as big of an antagonist of the LDS clones around here as much as anyone, and to me, this is a non issue.

Its about scheduling a non-critical, social event for when most of the target audience can come. And since a large portion of the students are Mo's, it only makes sense to schedule it around conference.

There are plenty of battles to pick, for those who feel that Mormons are smothering our community. This is a silly one however.

To Whaaaaa! | 11:00 a.m. Oct. 6, 2007

I guess maybe that's what was said in Illinois?

Finally | 11:02 a.m. Oct. 6, 2007

I thank you guys. Finally out in the open about how you guys feel about Catholics

JN | 11:21 a.m. Oct. 6, 2007

Good job Murray High. You made a good decision to allow students to both go to the dance and their religious services. This had nothing to do with "the separation of church and state". This was letting the kids do both. C'mon people- get a life!

David | 11:24 a.m. Oct. 6, 2007

When I was a kid, I didn't have the option to NOT attend an LDS conference session. My parents MADE ME go. I didn't go to high school in Utah, but I would imagine the numbers of attendees would be very low should the school proceed without a sizeable number of the predominant faith. It only seems prudent to postpone the dance. It would have been even MORE prudent to schedule their homecoming events separate from LDS conference since the church holds it at the SAME TIME EVERY YEAR. It's really no surprise.

As far as person who expressed a deep resentment for the fact the homecoming dance coordinators hadn't offered even a pretense of inviting commentary or suggestions from the non-LDS students, would it have been preferable for them to have pretended? Doesn't it show MORE respect by being forthright about their intentions?

Fred | 11:36 a.m. Oct. 6, 2007

What is the deal with all the Catholic comments? I think the point is that schools and communities tend to plan around the religious activities of the majority. It is not tyranny. It is reality. I could understand complaints if they decided not to have a dance at all, but the dance was merely rescheduled.

I question why the media would choose to stir the pot. This dialog certainly does not improve discourse. It makes it more divisive.

John | 12:03 p.m. Oct. 6, 2007

really, it wasnt so much a religious thing, but a money thing. If the majority of high schoolers weren't able to attend the dance, the school would have lost some of its money because a far greater number of youth would not have been able to attend. I am glad it happened though. Although I do remember one year when I went to a homecoming dance scheduled on a conference date. It was a great experience. Most of the young men had gone to the priesthood session, and then went to the dance, and they treated the young women with much more respect and were able to bridal their passions a whole lot better. Either way, I think it was a great idea. And the separation of church and state only means a church can't run the country politicaly speaking and not with how or where or when we worship.

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