Deseret News | Reader comments: Panel brainstorming benefits to keep teachers in classroom

Reader comments
Panel brainstorming benefits to keep teachers in classroom

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Steph Rogalski | 3:16 a.m. Sept. 28, 2007

I am a long-serving teacher (over 20 years)in Australia. I am about to leave my profession because of the lack of promotional positions, limited pay relative to other professions, and lack of recognition. If there were ways to improve the resources I have to work with (instead of having to supply my own materials and transportation - I am a peripatetic teacher of instrumental music), and the facilities that are available to work in, then, MAYBE, I would consider staying on. Yes, a pay increase is long overdue. Administrators and legislators talk about the value of education, but then don't value it themselves (evidenced by the poor pay and conditions).

We have the same problems here in Australia that you do in Utah! When will legislators wake up? When it is too late!!

Anonymous | 4:44 a.m. Sept. 28, 2007

Absolutely. Especially in a state where many families raise four or more children. A $10,000+ raise would definitely make teaching much more attractive.

While you're at it, making the profession not so "flat" might help. Some teachers leave because they need variety. Kitty (Catherine) Boles of Harvard has some ideas about how to do this. Google her.

Tim | 5:41 a.m. Sept. 28, 2007

I'm a science teacher that just moved from Utah to Idaho Falls. My salary went up and living expenses went down. What a bargain! To all Utah teachers out there--I highly recommend the move :)

Comments continue below

Simple answer to the problem | 6:42 a.m. Sept. 28, 2007

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Steve Belnap | 7:16 a.m. Sept. 28, 2007

I am one of those former Utah teachers who left the state because I could not make ends meet. To let you know how bad it is, I was offered aproximately $27,000 a year from Provo School District to teach and I have a masters. At the time of that job offer I was making about the same amount working part time while going to graduate school. I wanted to cry. I went overseas and now make about 3 times what I would be paid in the great state of Utah. Some of my former and current colleagues are also former Utah teachers. Teachers are leaving for other states not because they want to but because they have to. They have no other choice. I once heard an assistant superintendent say, "Utah spends less then any other state on education but scores in the top ten in every academic category. So why should we pay teachers more?" I say, think of where you could be if you had teachers who were allowed to make a living at the profession. Wake up Utah legislature!! And stop paving Highway 6 every summer. That may help free up some money.

vidar | 7:26 a.m. Sept. 28, 2007

With this kind of money being paid the compeition for teaching positions will go up as well.
You would see many professionals leaving their jobs to go teach.
I am not sure how the system would deal with this.
Many current teachers will be forced out of their jobs to make way for better qualified canidates.
Teachers from other states would start coming here.
With more money being paid comes a greater demand for accountability.
And of course we have to factor in the very generous benefit package that comes with being a government employee.

Chuck | 7:54 a.m. Sept. 28, 2007

If they could just get the feds and the big-district curriculum telling-us-how-to-do-our-jobs people out of our hair, maybe then teachers would stay. We already have enough who start teaching. They just get fed up with it and leave.

A decent size school would help a great deal to empowering teachers and making them successful as well. Schools being built right now are at least twice the optimum size.

What are they thinking? | 7:55 a.m. Sept. 28, 2007

Did I just read that they want science and math teachers to work year round? Yeah that is going to make them happier...

Most teachers I know really need that couple of months away from the students to reload and get their sanity back. They don't want to work even more hours than they are working now. It is already overwhelming for most of them. Adding a bigger work load isn't going to get more people into the profession.

What the legislators need to see is that we have a shortage. We need to pay them a lot more for the work they are already doing.

$10,000 - $15,000 is a big step in the right direction. I really think that would do it.

But don't make the already stressful work load even bigger. Of course our legislators are going to have a hard time doing that.

We can only hope.

Adam | 8:01 a.m. Sept. 28, 2007

Turning to a trimester system doesn't seem to be the solution. Prospective teachers will then look at the situation and see that the pay has been raised to be competitive with the surrounding states, but the number of contract day will be higher in Utah. So, we would be back at square one where teachers are getting paid less per contractual day then in surrounding states. The other problem is that Utah spends less per student than every other state in the country. Teachers need an increase in pay AND better resources in the classroom to keep up with other states. The legislature needs to stop looking to skirt around the issue and simply give the money to education the way it is. This will help to keep teachers and create a competitive market so the best teachers stay.

JD | 8:10 a.m. Sept. 28, 2007

I want to be a teacher so bad. I am just finishing up my degree as a communication major at the University of Utah. I had a child and spent most of my free time as a volunteer in the schools. After a few years I felt that it was time for me to consider becoming a teacher. I registered for school and discovered that I was drawn to communication. I was lured there because of the need to make more money. Money is at the heart of the issue and so is the amount of time it takes to become a teacher. I still am interested. Where do I go from here. I am so sick of school and need a break and would love to teach right away. I am nearly broke with all my school loans so spending more money on school is not an option. I would like to start teaching anything and then go back for more school later.

Tony Pellegrini | 8:14 a.m. Sept. 28, 2007

Hallelujah! Finally someone is paying attention to the needs of kids! Our children and grandchildren are best served by educators who don't have to work evenings and weekends at WalMart and McDonalds to make ends meet. The article was deceptive in that the $47,000 starting salary is not an idea from the legislature, but from the creative minds of Rex Wilkey and Lyle Cox of the Washington County School District. Why can't we get them to replace Bill Hickman and Steve Urquhart?! We might get some productive action from the legislature then for our most valuable state asset...our children and grandchildren!

teacher | 8:25 a.m. Sept. 28, 2007

Giving a teacher more days to work in exchange for increased pay may cut into teacher efficency and increase burnout. I, for one, need summers to regain my sanity and prepare for the coming year.

Teachers work in a high stress environmnet created by state and federal mandates,unruly students, and larger than manageable class sizes. Remove some of the stress and teachers will consider the job as a permanent career.

teacher2 | 8:50 a.m. Sept. 28, 2007

As a teacher, my summers are convalescent time. I would not teach without them, rather, I would be in a rubber room.

Teacher Father | 8:56 a.m. Sept. 28, 2007

How idiotic can we be? We say our children are our future then we pay our teachers like laborers. The state legislaturers should follow a teacher around for a year and see how many hours he/she really puts in for the meager pay he/she gets. Then we budget money for soccer stadium. I realize there are bad teachers that give all teachers a bad reputation. But the vast majority of our teachers are excellent educators that are entrusted with the safety and education of our children for most to the day during the school year. You get what you pay for!!! It's time we did something substantial to keep quality teachers in our State.

Always a Teacher | 8:57 a.m. Sept. 28, 2007

Most of the people I knew when a teacher in Utah Schools have been forced by economic necessities to find other better paying employment.

There are many thousands of good trained teachers who would love to teach if they could afford the luxury. Better pay and less interference from the teachers union would bring many of them back to the classroom. . .. .

Thumper | 9:05 a.m. Sept. 28, 2007

Other Western states offer: 1) Reduced class sizes, 15 per class through 3rd grade. 2)Specialized teachers, PE, ART and Music, which give the teacher a 1 hour break each day to do paperwork, correct homework etc, while their class is involved in the other activities. and 3)Increased pay.

We moved from Nevada and knew we would take a financial hit but it was a shock. My wife had 16 years expirience teaching, the school district in Utah gave her 7. Nevada you don't pay state taxes and the school district has its own retirement system so there is no Social Security taxes. Her salary was cut by 40%.
In order for Utah to compete it has to increase salaries at least 25% and I think hiring specialized teachers will be of benefit to not only the teachers but to the children as well.

E | 9:13 a.m. Sept. 28, 2007

More money would be great, it would definitely ease some financial stresses of being a teacher. I feel a bigger issue is something needs to be done to hire administrators who actually care about teachers and who treat teachers with respect. As a teacher I hear more complaints about incompetent, overpaid administrators than I do about teacher pay.

Robo | 9:30 a.m. Sept. 28, 2007

Teachers certainly don't need more hours in the classroom or even more salary per se. My wife would gladly retain her current salary if she could actually TEACH during the day instead of do government mandated testing and paperwork, and actually get home by 6:00 p.m. instead of 8 or 9 or even 10. She would also gladly retain her salary if she could either always have an aid in the classroom or have a significantly reduced class size. 24 to 26 2nd graders is outrageous, especially when they read from Kindergarten up to 4th grade level. The school district won't let the grade teams divide up students by capability level to teach reading, so here is one teacher in each and every classroom trying to help basically illiterate children learn to read while at the same time challenging the more advanced students. So, each teacher ends up preparing 3, 4, or 5 different lesson plans each day rather than just 1. My experience is that more money is fine for awhile, but it doesn't solve the problem long term. That takes improved working conditions. RESPECT is right on the money (no pun intended).

Tod | 9:30 a.m. Sept. 28, 2007

My student teacher from last year told me that the University of Utah has many openings for their teaching program that are unfilled. She said they had 3 cohorts last year and have only one this year. Salaries must increase substantially to attract college students into the teaching programs and, once trained, keep them in Utah.

I cringe when I see plans to pay science, math and technology teachers more than other disciplines. Selective pay hikes will serve to demoralize already undervalued teachers from other areas of study.

Ed U. Kater | 9:47 a.m. Sept. 28, 2007

Great idea, legislators. Don't pay teachers what they are worth; let them work more hours if they want more money. Yeah. That'll fix the problem. and $10K raise? A college grad should get more than $37K starting out, but beginning teachers in our district get $28K. No respect.

FMH | 9:53 a.m. Sept. 28, 2007

I'm a former High School and Jr. High math and science teacher. I'm sick of hearing the "teachers need to be paid better" mantra of the teachers' unions. When I left teaching, I was making $22,000 working 9 months. I took a job in government making $23,000 working 12 months. Some day when you want to know what a teacher makes, figure their hourly salary based on a 180 (+/-) day year. And don't tell me how many extra hours they put in on their own time. So do the rest of us.

Teachers need to be able to teach, not babysit somebody's mama's boy who can't behave. That is where the burnout comes in. WHen a teacher is allowed to teach, there isn't a better job in the world. Unfortunately, in public education, you have to take the riff-raff too.

Kyle | 10:05 a.m. Sept. 28, 2007

At 18 credits from Graduating with an English degree from BYU, I have recently decided to make the crazy change of major to English Teaching. At my recent interview for admittance to the program I found out that out of 50 current students in the program, I will be 1 of 3 males.

I am fairly unique among my peers. I have only decided to become a teacher because of the studies I have done as an undergraduate related to the philosophy of education and pedagogy.

In the essay for application I wrote, "I know that making the decision to become a teacher is like making the decision to live a life of poverty... my studies, however, have taught me that the education of children is more important than wealth. Therefore, I have decided to become a teacher when I know very well that I could be very successful elsewhere."

It took most of the last year for me to convince my wife (a second grade teacher) that I need to do this. She cried when she realized that she would have to work while our kids are young.

It's sad that we've had to make these decisions.

Joe | 10:10 a.m. Sept. 28, 2007

I really wish that teachers earned more, that would be great. The truth is, if you want to earn more, you need to work more. Plenty of other professions deal with difficult clients, kids, stress etc. No one else gets the summer off to rest. Social workers, nurses, counselors and many other people deal with the same low pay and stress, but work year round. Everyone is underfunded and underpaid, not just teachers. I had to leave the state for adequate pay, and I am not a teacher.

cs | 10:23 a.m. Sept. 28, 2007

Legislature approved raises were a great idea. Lets put it in the paper and on the news. Lets not really give them to the teachers but it sounds great. Have you heard anything about the big joke on the news about how they arent gettng the raise or bonuses? Wonder why?

C | 10:31 a.m. Sept. 28, 2007

A teacher has the future of our children in their hands. Those children turn into tomorrow's adults. Wouldn't it be worth every penny to attract AND retain the most competent, professional teachers that we can? More attractive paychecks would save costs (more than just dollars) in the end. There would be less turnover and all of those associated costs. Teachers could actually focus on their job of teaching rather than looking for somewhere else to go to get a salary they can live on and support their own families. Less stress for administrators constantly having to find replacements for those who left, etc. Having excellent, focused, teachers with good morale benefits everyone in our society- from the children on up.

Ellsworth | 11:16 a.m. Sept. 28, 2007

Incentives only deal with the symptoms of an inherently flawed system. Stress causes burnout. I taught in Utah for eight years. Money will never change the level of stress that our school system puts on teachers who are often powerless to eliminate the problem situations in the classrooms. As long as schools are politically driven entities they will never function well. Long live vouchers and freedom to choose. Only that freedom of choice will strangle a public school system into change.

Cecil Ellsworth | 11:22 a.m. Sept. 28, 2007

Flexible schedules | 11:24 a.m. Sept. 28, 2007

Not every ex-teacher quits to make more money elsewhere. Utah needs to make better use of the resources available to them-- the 50% of teachers who leave the profession within 5 years.

If Utah offered half-time "job sharing" where teachers could work either mornings or afternoons, or just a couple of hours per day, they might attract some of those (thousands of) teachers who would love to teach but choose to stay home with the kids instead of teaching full time.

Ann | 11:57 a.m. Sept. 28, 2007

Maybe teachers don't get a lot of money, but do they have a great schedule. They get Summers, weekends, holidays, and Christmas and Easter breaks. And teachers get great benefits from the state. Teachers knew they wouldn't have a high salary when they chose their profesesion, so they should stop complaining. I agree with Joe. There are plenty of other underpaid professions, but we don't constantly hear them complaining.

well duh | 12:39 p.m. Sept. 28, 2007

Also need to pay teachers on what they are teaching, not just their tenure. If Chemestry teachers are in more demand than an art pe teacher, they should be paid more. that is how the real world works.

How about performance based pay. No I don't mean the amount of "A"s in a class because that will punish teachers who work with special needs students. Set goals and measure based on goals. That is how the rest of the world works.

Oh yeah, that requires that UNIONS change their mentality.

Jeff | 12:40 p.m. Sept. 28, 2007

I wish I could take the summer off to recharge from my stressful job. But then again I knew what I was getting into when I went to college and chose my profession. Not only that, but I wouldn't make very much money. Of course if somebody offers me a $10-15,000 raise, I'll take that in a second. It would also be nice to have a job I know I can never lose because of tenure.

Good call, Ann | 12:43 p.m. Sept. 28, 2007

Great comment, Ann. But unless you are planning on teaching those classes, maybe you should consider supply and demand instead of trolling on about complaining. Nobody is complaining. We just need more teachers here.

Benefits? | 12:43 p.m. Sept. 28, 2007

Anybody that thinks teachers still get great benefits doesn't know what they are talking about. Dental? NOPE. Vision? NOPE. Health care? Yes but only after paying a big portion of the premium and having huge out of pocket deductibles. I realize that other professions have the same employee costs. I'm just making the point that they aren't GREAT benefits like ignorant people claim.

The only great benefit is retirement and a VAST majority of teachers don't make it that far. It is cheaper for the districts to burn out the old teachers and keep hiring new teachers at lower pay and no experience. Don't worry about what it does to the school or kids. Just keep the revolving door going....

a REAL Republican | 12:50 p.m. Sept. 28, 2007

Here's the actual reality from a TRULY REPUBLICAN point of view.

Market forces of supply and demand drive the engine of our free market economy.

If the state of Utah refuses to pay teachers a livable wage, they will leave the state or quit the profession. If the so called "Republican" legislature tries to incentivize teachers by giving them pay equal to that of the surrounding states but requiring more labor than the surrounding states, the teachers will leave the state or quit the profession. This is actual factual reality - no politics, no unions. The laws of supply and demand can't be negotiated.

Our so called "Republican" legislature needs to stop spending time and money on the subsidy of private enterprise and start doing what they were elected to do, manage the affairs of the state. Howard Stephenson and his pro-voucher crowd are as republican as the FDR New Dealers.

When they fund a living wage for educators, the labor shortage will end.

Anonymous | 1:10 p.m. Sept. 28, 2007

So Ann what your saying is we should ignore the problem? Anyone foolish enough to choose teacher as an occupation should accept reality.

I digress.

Hopefully I never have to teach your kids Ann.

This comes back to the whole point of RESPECT. Ann doesn't give it, and many other parents as well.

evensteven | 1:09 p.m. Sept. 28, 2007

Teachers, through their blind towing of the union line, have sacrificed financial rewards for guaranteed employment. At every turn, they decry the proposal of changes that would allow for the increased salaries they so vocally seek. In short, this is a problem largely of their own creation.

There are few, if any, other 'professions' which rely on union muscle. Attorney's don't. Engineers don't. CPAs don't. Doctors don't. If teachers want respect and to be treated like professionals, they should act like professionals and break their chains to the educational-industrial complex.

Allow competition by schools and teachers. Quit allowing a small number of unruly, undisciplined kids to ruin it for the rest. Provide flexiility in work schedules. Allow for easier transfers between districts without losing seniority and benefits. Get rid of the poor performers in your ranks.

Teachers do deserve more. The free market is sometimes scary but if they want the rewards, teachers must let go of their guaranteed jobs and actually be professionals.

Vaughn Marietta | 1:22 p.m. Sept. 28, 2007

The common misconception is that the legislature gave Utah teachers a $2500 raise; first it wasn't
$2500, it was $1960 before taxes, and it was a
one time bonus. Next year our salaries go down
again.

Robo | 1:37 p.m. Sept. 28, 2007

These things seem to always get off topic. The point is there is a SHORTAGE of teachers and therefore YOUR CHILDREN are not in the best learning environment. Every profession has to balance between making the job profitable and enjoyable enough to retain employees while still controlling costs. The point isn't teachers complaining, or how much they do or don't work, or do or don't get paid. The point is not enough are going into or staying in the profession in its current situation to teach YOUR KIDS in the best learning environment. Does society want to change that or not is the question, and if so, how? Teaching gets more public discussion simply because it is a publicly funded social program.

Darren | 1:44 p.m. Sept. 28, 2007

Everyone needs to understand how technical science and math careers work. We have to put ourselves through continual learning to stay competitive in our industry. The nature of our jobs requires continual learning. If I, having 15 years experience in a professional science field were to start teaching I would give up over two thirds of my salary and I would still not be a "qualified" teacher in the eyes of professional educators even though I own a masters degree and 15 years of real life science and business leadership experience.

Why do you think folks in the science industry don't want quit and become teachers. I have thought many times I would like to teach but I know the financial and educational reality of it. When the legislature and school districts and the teachers union get off their high horse and enable experienced individuals like me to have starting salaries in the 70,000$ range for a 10 month contract. Then and only then will you start to make progress on getting folks to come over from private or government industry. Also starting salaries need to be in the 40-50,000$ range or industry will continue to win out.

College Student 101 | 1:51 p.m. Sept. 28, 2007

I am currently in my 3rd year of college in Utah and I am planning to teach at a secondary level. However I am not planning to teach in Utah because I cant afford to. I believe that teachers make a very large impact on the future of young people. It seems to me that Utah should put their money where their mouth is when it comes to education. Teachers do make a difference, in EVERY content area and often the most underfunded programs such as physical ed, drama, art and music provide the greatest self-esteem for students. Utah, promote high morale amoung your teachers!!!

Anonymous | 1:56 p.m. Sept. 28, 2007

Define Teacher. It seems in Utah that include janitors and secretaries and school lunch workers. My daughter works in the Jordan District and has never seen the money promised by the last legislative session due to the fact the district cannot define teacher. Maybe the legislature should define the term before they throw out tax payer money.

EVERYONE MISSING THE POINT! | 2:04 p.m. Sept. 28, 2007

This article is hilarious! We have all become so brainwashed that Public Schooling is the only way to go that we spend all our time trying to fix an inherintly bad system. Trying to put band-aids and throw money at Public Schools is like a flu-shot to a heart attack victim! Public Schooling is Socialism and socialism NEVER works, no matter how many committees and bright people you throw at it, it simple cannot work!
We should all get signs in our yards that read, " Enough Excuses, Privatize Public School"

A.K | 2:14 p.m. Sept. 28, 2007

No offense but those people reprimending teachers for not being grateful for their jobs and their salaries because they get summers off, benefits, etc., never were teachers. Teachers enter the profession because they are concerned with the welfare and growth of our children. Unfortunately, a lack of resources, overcrowded classrooms, and ridiculous rules and paperwork is far too taxing on anyone to bear and especially over a long period of time. In the three years I taught my husband was amazed at the stress level and requirements of my job. He has a very demanding job where he works late and even all night at times, but he felt my job was far more difficult and impossible to meet the needs of my students-which is disheartening for a teacher. It's no wonder many teachers have to stop teaching after a few years. Seriously, if it really is just a whining ingratitude problem with the teachers of Utah then why do the other 49 states feel differently. Why do they bother paying their educators far higher salaries if it's because their just selfish? Is it the teachers that don't get it or Utah's government? Increase salaries and classroom environment and requirements.

Simple Answer | 2:21 p.m. Sept. 28, 2007

Teachers are ungrateful and whine about their great jobs with lots of holidays and benefits. What! That's funny it must only be in Utah because the other 49 states' goverments seem to think differently about their educators.

Retiref Teacher | 2:23 p.m. Sept. 28, 2007

After reading the comments I see that very few understand the problem. Society has changed, but the perceptions of teachers and education have not. This year Utah school districts were scraping the bottom of the barrel to such an extent that the governor helped them hire elementary teachers from Mexico. (I guess Mexico is doing so well that they didn't need them). Teacher availability is product of supply and demand, which can only be cured by higher wages and benefits. Utah is not only in competition with other states, but other professions as well. Now that society fully accepts women into all professions, and has become child friendly with those with families, women no longer see teaching as the only profession available to them. Dedication gets a little thin (burnout) when teachers see others doing much better financially and with less stress. Perceptions of teachers, parents, and taxpayers are going to have to under go considerable change before there will be any improvement to the teacher shortage. It will get much worse before it gets better.

tongue and Cheek | 2:30 p.m. Sept. 28, 2007

I agree with EVERYONE IS MISSING THE POINT. If we can get rid of Public Education it will solve the Immigration issue and stabilize our economy. Instead of having to choose Non-speaking low wage workers, we can instead choose Utah natives at half the cost. Of course once Mexico builds a fence to keep us from slipping over to their country for the higher paying jobs we might have a new problem. Until then by your gum from my kid on the corner.

Anonymous | 2:32 p.m. Sept. 28, 2007

I'd like to see a study done why teachers leave the field in Utah. I suspect a fair number have a baby.

Yes to trimesters | 2:37 p.m. Sept. 28, 2007

I say yes to trimesters, and yes to vouchers. Let teachers get paid more, and bring in the competition. Let the best teachers be picked out of a handful, and make them keep being good to keep their jobs.

Buckeye Ute | 2:38 p.m. Sept. 28, 2007

I am finishing my M.Ed at Ohio State this year. I had thought about moving back to Utah to teach, but after looking into the situation in the State of Utah I have decided to look elsewhere for employment. Utah needs to realize that cost of living in the state is high and teacher salaries are lowest in the nation. Add to that the fact that there is a nationwide teacher shortage and salaries in other states are increasing (not to mention that Ohio and other states have lower cost of living.) So the Utah legislature's brilliant idea to have teachers work more hours for the same pay will increase the shortage. Also the fact that Utah has the highest teacher to student ratio in the country makes it impossible to be a competent teacher and get to know your students. As a student teacher in an underfunded district in Ohio I only have 15 to 22 students per class not 25 to 30 per class I would have in Utah. Wake up Utah and this well trained teacher may think about coming there to teach.

ex teacher | 2:39 p.m. Sept. 28, 2007

Hey lets flush more money down Utahs public school toilet that will fix it. Fix the bloated top heavy school districts, Stop the waste,Teach the kids and when the schools do rank in the top 10 then talk about a raise.

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