Comments about ‘Do the math — vote against vouchers’

I thought vouchers were supposed to save money. What gives? If what Rep. Allen is saying is true, I cannot offer my support to the voucher program. Are we being sold a bill of goods?

Sounds like millions more dollars for education to me. Isn't that what they've been crying for? Now, when it goes to schools outside their union's control, they don't want more funding for education. I think the best thing we could do for public education is introduce an alternative if they fail.

It appears that the assumption here is that all that is required to make education better is money. The real problem is there is a fundamental need for basic structural changes in education. Changes that the current educational establishment is unwilling to consider. If those fighting the voucher system would spend more time trying to convince us why public education is working (if it really is) and how they would make it better I might be more inclined to support their position. Instead all I see is a rusted and decaying establishment trying to defend the old failing ways.

This is a game of symantics.

All income tax in Utah goes to the Uniform School fund, the primary source for education in Utah. Most of your property tax goes to education.

Between those two, and Fed money, etc let's say a Union school receives $6,000 per CURRENT student.

With the voucher the Union school receives $3,000 per CURRENT student they do not educate. Savings, $3,000 per.

For FUTURE students, it is true the system will kick out $3,000 per. And since that student never enrolled they don't generate a 'savings' by this basic formula. They still generate a savings.

How you ask?

You have 100 students and $600,000, or $6,000 per student. One student never goes to the Union school, takes $3,000 and goes to a private school. You now have $597,000 divided by 99 students.

Do the math: $600,000 divided by 100 students is $6,000 per student. $597,000 divided by 99 students is $6,030.30.

Each FUTURE student will generate a small savings. Multiply that by 10,000 students state wide and the savings is even larger. What if 10% of future students take the voucher? The Union doesn't have to build schools for them. More savings.

Vouchers save money!

Also, if I'm not mistaken, the Gov insisted on some "hold harmless" language in the bill that will take money lost from the general fund and NOT the school districts, at least for the first several years. They will lose nothing, except the opportunity to cry about funding. The legislature just funded them more than they ever have, and districts still asked for more. THAT'S why your property taxes went up! Throwing money at this flawed system hasn't worked. Let's try something new, like good old free market competition!

The real issue is that if the Education system in this country was fixed -- locally and nationally --- there would be no need to even be looking at vouchers as opposed to the public schools. Everyone would unquestionably be willing to attend public schools.

The real issue is that if the Education system in this country was fixed -- locally and nationally --- there would be no need to even be looking at vouchers as opposed to the public schools. Everyone would unquestionably be willing to attend public schools.

And let me add that the $30.30 additional per student is huge!

Ask any teacher what they would do if they received an extra $30.30 per student?! For a class of 30 kids that is almost a $1,000 worth of classroom supplies. That is 50 or so books to a classroom library, software for computers, complete grammar curriculum for the class, etc, etc, etc.

Then figure we are talking not about 100 kids but 500,000 with upwards of 10% of them taking the voucher. And in so doing leaving a chunk of money behind per FUTURE student!

And imagine not bonding for 50,000 FUTURE students? To house 50,000 students you are looking at building: 31 brand new elementary schools ($7.5 million each), 8 middle schools ($10-12 million each), 8 Junior Highs ($15-20 million each), and 6 high schools ($30-40 million each.) On the low end that is a savings of over $600 million!

How many kids are in Alpine School District, about 54,000? Imagine not bonding/building the entire Alpine School District.

That is real savings! And that money is spread among the remaining 39 Districts.

And of course, only the Union book keeper is going to claim poverty.

I don't believe in Reganomics, I don't believe in Trickle Down Economics, I don't believe that vouchers will save tax payers or school districts any money, I don't believe our public schools in Utah are failing. I do believe that vouchers are an entitlement for the rich. I believe that Utah public schools are doing a great job even though they are the least funded in the nation. I believe that the way to make better schools is to get involved in education and not to pull your children out of the schools. I believe pro-voucher supports really want to destroy public education and make it a for profit enterprise and I believe that is WRONG. I believe that public school is the best education option to serve the needs of students, as well as of the community and gives the best value for your tax dollar. I know that I'm going to vote NO on referendum 1 because I belive vouchers are not in the best interest of Utah Students or Utah communities and particually Utah Families. With vouchers, it's not about the money, it's about the concept and the concept is wrong for Utah.

It appears that the people that are pushing for the voucher program have a strong religious bias. To me it appears that they want to create a parochial school on tax dollars. If they really want private schools, they can go to them, but not on my dime.

To A. Jones:

No, not everyone would be willing to go to public schools. There's no fix that's going to make a one size fits all program actually fit all students. The real problem here is the majority trying to force their system down the throat of the minority - in this case - the majority for whom public education does work, vs. the minority for whom it does not. All the public schoolers gripe that the private schools will cherry pick students - baloney. The kids who are leaving the public schools are the ones who NEED something different. After all, if your kid is doing great there, why would you want to leave? Yes, there are some programs for gifted - but not for profoundly gifted, or just above average. There are special education programs, but not for kids who struggle in a couple areas but overall test ok. You can get an aide for your student if they have severe health or mobility issues, but not if they have a minor problem that nevertheless impacts their school performance. Smaller schools with smaller classes without all the bureaucracy have more ability to serve individual needs.

The union has never said that public education is perfect. That is why they are up on the hill every year lobbying. What the union is saying is let's fix the system instead of giving up on the system. They have been trying to change it for years. Look at the fight againts NCLB. If voucher supporters would put the same energy, time and money into changing the current system to imporve it for ALL students then perhaps we would see some results. Heaven forbid the legislature listen to the teachers in the classrooms as to what they need.

Willie, if we are talking philosophy as part of instruction that opens up an entirely different level of debate.

The Supreme Court has placed the parameters on religions discussion in both the public square and in the use of public dollars in education, two different areas of case law.

Utah vouchers will comply with those standards so you don't need to worry about creating a religious Private school, won't happen.

Now, let's talk about the values and principles taught in education.

What if a parent doesn't want their child taught daily the evils of man called environmentalism?

Or, America is evil?

Or, all manner of values and principles they disagree with when it comes to human sexuality?

Or, that the 2nd Amendment is bad?

I could go on and on. These are not religious principles but certain issues a parent should have a say in. Private schools offer different environments, values and principles and that do not cross the Supreme Courts legal line.

Your concern is valid but not an issue with this voucher. You don't want to be forced to pay for religious instruction; we feel the same. A voucher serves everyone. We pay taxes, too.

First of all, there is no such thing as a union school. It is a label used to elicit a negative emotion.

Second, your property tax did not just go up because school districts asked for more. Property taxes go up for various reasons. One is if a taxing entity goes through the truth-in-taxation process. The other way is through increased valuation of your property. This is what has most recently happened. Any taxing entity cannot automatically reap that windfall without going through the truth-in-taxation process. A school district would have to lower their rate to be revenue neutral or go through the process.

Last, the big assumptions on any savings are:
1. that there are enough switchers, right now there is no where near enough space to accommodate the necessary number and
2. the Legislature would have to put the savings into public education. The Income Tax does go into prek-12 AND Higher ED. What is to prevent the legislature from just giving another income tax cut with the savings?

The point is that the additional money going to kids already in private schools will outweigh the savings generated from additional kids leaving the public school system.

I did the math. Then, I had my kids do the math. They could not. They are in classes with teachers teaching only to test. I'd like a tad more individial attention for my kids, short of home school.

I'll be voting yes on vouchers. Give ME the choice.

Bob - You are correct. The union has never said that schools are perfect, and they do lobby to make them better. And how do we make them better (in their minds)? Stay the course (heard that one before) and spend more money. Oh, and don't hold us accountable in a way that shows - like making it possible for students to leave.

Removing students from the system WILL result in lost revenue. For example: Universities in this state are funded on an full time equivalent basis. Based on demographic info from BYU about 8000 Utah resident FTEs, are being lost by the UofU and USU. At an estimated $10000 in funding per FTE, Univ. Wahsington comparison of peer institutions, that translates to approximately $80,000,000 not going to the state universities. This lost revenue has negatively impacted everything from faculty quality to library access.

Vouchers would introduce competition and remove the per pupil funding. Oh, initially it wouldn't but there is no way the UTA will let 600 million in savings go by without cutting it out of the taxes. Eventually, as with the higher ed system, a fTE model will be used by the legislature and public schools lacking the funding and with the most expensive students to educate, will rapidly fall behind their private competitors.

The only ones who will benefit are those rich enough to put their students in top private schools and who will receive a disproportionate amount of the inevitable tax cut.

The voucher proponents should fire their marketing people. What was once a good idea has turned into a war between public and private school. The radio adds are nauseating. Spend your money telling us about the benefits of vouchers and forget the Hillary Clinton, Move on dot org nonsense. Stop insulting the public school teachers and the parents who send their kids to public schools. We do have a choice and we have choosen to send our kids to public schools. My bet, is that vouchers will be defeated by a large margin. Next time, avoid the public vs private debate and stick to the issue of whats best for taxpayers.

And JotaB, what is to stop the legislature from taking the savings and buying another soccer stadium?

A great BIG reason that the savings will not be spent on a tax cut is where the savings will occur. The savings take place in the Uniform School Fund. When is the last time a tax cut was funded from this fund?

And for those who don't follow the minutia, the Uniform School Fund is just for education. The rest of the state (roads, health, parks, etc) come from the General Fund. The soccer stadium came from the General Fund. The School Fund remains HARMLESS.

As for Higher Ed taking your money, that is the Unions fault. Most conservatives fought AGAINST the ballot issue in the 90's that gave Higher Ed the ability to raid your money. The Union fought for it and called all those who opposed them "anti-education" just as they do now; poor choice on their part.

The savings do not need some sort of balance of "switchers." The savings are realized with the first child. The Union schools immediately discover they have one less of set of books, curriculum, fee waivers, etc to deal with.