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My view: Do the math — vote against vouchers
48 comments | Read story
Shocked | 12:45 a.m. Sept. 27, 2007
I thought vouchers were supposed to save money. What gives? If what Rep. Allen
is saying is true, I cannot offer my support to the voucher program. Are we
being sold a bill of goods?
You know exactly who I am | 1:56 a.m. Sept. 27, 2007
Sounds like millions more dollars for education to me. Isn't that what
they've been crying for? Now, when it goes to schools outside their
union's control, they don't want more funding for education. I think
the best thing we could do for public education is introduce an alternative if
they fail.
FRK | 6:41 a.m. Sept. 27, 2007
It appears that the assumption here is that all that is required to make
education better is money. The real problem is there is a fundamental need for
basic structural changes in education. Changes that the current educational
establishment is unwilling to consider. If those fighting the voucher system
would spend more time trying to convince us why public education is working (if
it really is) and how they would make it better I might be more inclined to
support their position. Instead all I see is a rusted and decaying
establishment trying to defend the old failing ways.
Comments continue below
James | 7:34 a.m. Sept. 27, 2007
This is a game of symantics.
All income tax in Utah goes to the Uniform School fund, the primary source for education in Utah. Most of your property tax goes to education.
Between those two, and Fed money, etc let's say a Union school receives $6,000 per CURRENT student.
With the voucher the Union school receives $3,000 per CURRENT student they do not educate. Savings, $3,000 per.
For FUTURE students, it is true the system will kick out $3,000 per. And since that student never enrolled they don't generate a 'savings' by this basic formula. They still generate a savings.
How you ask?
You have 100 students and $600,000, or $6,000 per student. One student never goes to the Union school, takes $3,000 and goes to a private school. You now have $597,000 divided by 99 students.
Do the math: $600,000 divided by 100 students is $6,000 per student. $597,000 divided by 99 students is $6,030.30.
Each FUTURE student will generate a small savings. Multiply that by 10,000 students state wide and the savings is even larger. What if 10% of future students take the voucher? The Union doesn't have to build schools for them. More savings.
Vouchers save money!
All income tax in Utah goes to the Uniform School fund, the primary source for education in Utah. Most of your property tax goes to education.
Between those two, and Fed money, etc let's say a Union school receives $6,000 per CURRENT student.
With the voucher the Union school receives $3,000 per CURRENT student they do not educate. Savings, $3,000 per.
For FUTURE students, it is true the system will kick out $3,000 per. And since that student never enrolled they don't generate a 'savings' by this basic formula. They still generate a savings.
How you ask?
You have 100 students and $600,000, or $6,000 per student. One student never goes to the Union school, takes $3,000 and goes to a private school. You now have $597,000 divided by 99 students.
Do the math: $600,000 divided by 100 students is $6,000 per student. $597,000 divided by 99 students is $6,030.30.
Each FUTURE student will generate a small savings. Multiply that by 10,000 students state wide and the savings is even larger. What if 10% of future students take the voucher? The Union doesn't have to build schools for them. More savings.
Vouchers save money!
Anonymous | 7:49 a.m. Sept. 27, 2007
Also, if I'm not mistaken, the Gov insisted on some "hold
harmless" language in the bill that will take money lost from the general
fund and NOT the school districts, at least for the first several years. They
will lose nothing, except the opportunity to cry about funding. The legislature
just funded them more than they ever have, and districts still asked for more.
THAT'S why your property taxes went up! Throwing money at this flawed
system hasn't worked. Let's try something new, like good old free
market competition!
A Jones | 8:03 a.m. Sept. 27, 2007
The real issue is that if the Education system in this country was fixed --
locally and nationally --- there would be no need to even be looking at vouchers
as opposed to the public schools. Everyone would unquestionably be willing to
attend public schools.
A Jones | 8:05 a.m. Sept. 27, 2007
The real issue is that if the Education system in this country was fixed --
locally and nationally --- there would be no need to even be looking at vouchers
as opposed to the public schools. Everyone would unquestionably be willing to
attend public schools.
James | 8:12 a.m. Sept. 27, 2007
And let me add that the $30.30 additional per student is huge!
Ask any teacher what they would do if they received an extra $30.30 per student?! For a class of 30 kids that is almost a $1,000 worth of classroom supplies. That is 50 or so books to a classroom library, software for computers, complete grammar curriculum for the class, etc, etc, etc.
Then figure we are talking not about 100 kids but 500,000 with upwards of 10% of them taking the voucher. And in so doing leaving a chunk of money behind per FUTURE student!
And imagine not bonding for 50,000 FUTURE students? To house 50,000 students you are looking at building: 31 brand new elementary schools ($7.5 million each), 8 middle schools ($10-12 million each), 8 Junior Highs ($15-20 million each), and 6 high schools ($30-40 million each.) On the low end that is a savings of over $600 million!
How many kids are in Alpine School District, about 54,000? Imagine not bonding/building the entire Alpine School District.
That is real savings! And that money is spread among the remaining 39 Districts.
And of course, only the Union book keeper is going to claim poverty.
Ask any teacher what they would do if they received an extra $30.30 per student?! For a class of 30 kids that is almost a $1,000 worth of classroom supplies. That is 50 or so books to a classroom library, software for computers, complete grammar curriculum for the class, etc, etc, etc.
Then figure we are talking not about 100 kids but 500,000 with upwards of 10% of them taking the voucher. And in so doing leaving a chunk of money behind per FUTURE student!
And imagine not bonding for 50,000 FUTURE students? To house 50,000 students you are looking at building: 31 brand new elementary schools ($7.5 million each), 8 middle schools ($10-12 million each), 8 Junior Highs ($15-20 million each), and 6 high schools ($30-40 million each.) On the low end that is a savings of over $600 million!
How many kids are in Alpine School District, about 54,000? Imagine not bonding/building the entire Alpine School District.
That is real savings! And that money is spread among the remaining 39 Districts.
And of course, only the Union book keeper is going to claim poverty.
Instereo | 8:28 a.m. Sept. 27, 2007
I don't believe in Reganomics, I don't believe in Trickle Down
Economics, I don't believe that vouchers will save tax payers or school
districts any money, I don't believe our public schools in Utah are
failing. I do believe that vouchers are an entitlement for the rich. I believe
that Utah public schools are doing a great job even though they are the least
funded in the nation. I believe that the way to make better schools is to get
involved in education and not to pull your children out of the schools. I
believe pro-voucher supports really want to destroy public education and make it
a for profit enterprise and I believe that is WRONG. I believe that public
school is the best education option to serve the needs of students, as well as
of the community and gives the best value for your tax dollar. I know that
I'm going to vote NO on referendum 1 because I belive vouchers are not in
the best interest of Utah Students or Utah communities and particually Utah
Families. With vouchers, it's not about the money, it's about the
concept and the concept is wrong for Utah.
willie | 8:57 a.m. Sept. 27, 2007
It appears that the people that are pushing for the voucher program have a
strong religious bias. To me it appears that they want to create a parochial
school on tax dollars. If they really want private schools, they can go to them,
but not on my dime.
Deena | 9:10 a.m. Sept. 27, 2007
To A. Jones:
No, not everyone would be willing to go to public schools. There's no fix that's going to make a one size fits all program actually fit all students. The real problem here is the majority trying to force their system down the throat of the minority - in this case - the majority for whom public education does work, vs. the minority for whom it does not. All the public schoolers gripe that the private schools will cherry pick students - baloney. The kids who are leaving the public schools are the ones who NEED something different. After all, if your kid is doing great there, why would you want to leave? Yes, there are some programs for gifted - but not for profoundly gifted, or just above average. There are special education programs, but not for kids who struggle in a couple areas but overall test ok. You can get an aide for your student if they have severe health or mobility issues, but not if they have a minor problem that nevertheless impacts their school performance. Smaller schools with smaller classes without all the bureaucracy have more ability to serve individual needs.
No, not everyone would be willing to go to public schools. There's no fix that's going to make a one size fits all program actually fit all students. The real problem here is the majority trying to force their system down the throat of the minority - in this case - the majority for whom public education does work, vs. the minority for whom it does not. All the public schoolers gripe that the private schools will cherry pick students - baloney. The kids who are leaving the public schools are the ones who NEED something different. After all, if your kid is doing great there, why would you want to leave? Yes, there are some programs for gifted - but not for profoundly gifted, or just above average. There are special education programs, but not for kids who struggle in a couple areas but overall test ok. You can get an aide for your student if they have severe health or mobility issues, but not if they have a minor problem that nevertheless impacts their school performance. Smaller schools with smaller classes without all the bureaucracy have more ability to serve individual needs.
bob | 9:34 a.m. Sept. 27, 2007
The union has never said that public education is perfect. That is why they are
up on the hill every year lobbying. What the union is saying is let's fix
the system instead of giving up on the system. They have been trying to change
it for years. Look at the fight againts NCLB. If voucher supporters would put
the same energy, time and money into changing the current system to imporve it
for ALL students then perhaps we would see some results. Heaven forbid the
legislature listen to the teachers in the classrooms as to what they need.
James | 9:34 a.m. Sept. 27, 2007
Willie, if we are talking philosophy as part of instruction that opens up an
entirely different level of debate.
The Supreme Court has placed the parameters on religions discussion in both the public square and in the use of public dollars in education, two different areas of case law.
Utah vouchers will comply with those standards so you don't need to worry about creating a religious Private school, won't happen.
Now, let's talk about the values and principles taught in education.
What if a parent doesn't want their child taught daily the evils of man called environmentalism?
Or, America is evil?
Or, all manner of values and principles they disagree with when it comes to human sexuality?
Or, that the 2nd Amendment is bad?
I could go on and on. These are not religious principles but certain issues a parent should have a say in. Private schools offer different environments, values and principles and that do not cross the Supreme Courts legal line.
Your concern is valid but not an issue with this voucher. You don't want to be forced to pay for religious instruction; we feel the same. A voucher serves everyone. We pay taxes, too.
The Supreme Court has placed the parameters on religions discussion in both the public square and in the use of public dollars in education, two different areas of case law.
Utah vouchers will comply with those standards so you don't need to worry about creating a religious Private school, won't happen.
Now, let's talk about the values and principles taught in education.
What if a parent doesn't want their child taught daily the evils of man called environmentalism?
Or, America is evil?
Or, all manner of values and principles they disagree with when it comes to human sexuality?
Or, that the 2nd Amendment is bad?
I could go on and on. These are not religious principles but certain issues a parent should have a say in. Private schools offer different environments, values and principles and that do not cross the Supreme Courts legal line.
Your concern is valid but not an issue with this voucher. You don't want to be forced to pay for religious instruction; we feel the same. A voucher serves everyone. We pay taxes, too.
JotaB | 9:40 a.m. Sept. 27, 2007
First of all, there is no such thing as a union school. It is a label used to
elicit a negative emotion.
Second, your property tax did not just go up because school districts asked for more. Property taxes go up for various reasons. One is if a taxing entity goes through the truth-in-taxation process. The other way is through increased valuation of your property. This is what has most recently happened. Any taxing entity cannot automatically reap that windfall without going through the truth-in-taxation process. A school district would have to lower their rate to be revenue neutral or go through the process.
Last, the big assumptions on any savings are:
1. that there are enough switchers, right now there is no where near enough space to accommodate the necessary number and
2. the Legislature would have to put the savings into public education. The Income Tax does go into prek-12 AND Higher ED. What is to prevent the legislature from just giving another income tax cut with the savings?
Second, your property tax did not just go up because school districts asked for more. Property taxes go up for various reasons. One is if a taxing entity goes through the truth-in-taxation process. The other way is through increased valuation of your property. This is what has most recently happened. Any taxing entity cannot automatically reap that windfall without going through the truth-in-taxation process. A school district would have to lower their rate to be revenue neutral or go through the process.
Last, the big assumptions on any savings are:
1. that there are enough switchers, right now there is no where near enough space to accommodate the necessary number and
2. the Legislature would have to put the savings into public education. The Income Tax does go into prek-12 AND Higher ED. What is to prevent the legislature from just giving another income tax cut with the savings?
Anonymous | 9:43 a.m. Sept. 27, 2007
The point is that the additional money going to kids already in private schools
will outweigh the savings generated from additional kids leaving the public
school system.
Mom | 10:05 a.m. Sept. 27, 2007
I did the math. Then, I had my kids do the math. They could not. They are in
classes with teachers teaching only to test. I'd like a tad more
individial attention for my kids, short of home school.
I'll be voting yes on vouchers. Give ME the choice.
I'll be voting yes on vouchers. Give ME the choice.
FRK | 10:08 a.m. Sept. 27, 2007
Bob - You are correct. The union has never said that schools are perfect, and
they do lobby to make them better. And how do we make them better (in their
minds)? Stay the course (heard that one before) and spend more money. Oh, and
don't hold us accountable in a way that shows - like making it possible for
students to leave.
TTPT | 10:32 a.m. Sept. 27, 2007
Removing students from the system WILL result in lost revenue. For example:
Universities in this state are funded on an full time equivalent basis. Based on
demographic info from BYU about 8000 Utah resident FTEs, are being lost by the
UofU and USU. At an estimated $10000 in funding per FTE, Univ. Wahsington
comparison of peer institutions, that translates to approximately $80,000,000
not going to the state universities. This lost revenue has negatively impacted
everything from faculty quality to library access.
Vouchers would introduce competition and remove the per pupil funding. Oh, initially it wouldn't but there is no way the UTA will let 600 million in savings go by without cutting it out of the taxes. Eventually, as with the higher ed system, a fTE model will be used by the legislature and public schools lacking the funding and with the most expensive students to educate, will rapidly fall behind their private competitors.
The only ones who will benefit are those rich enough to put their students in top private schools and who will receive a disproportionate amount of the inevitable tax cut.
Vouchers would introduce competition and remove the per pupil funding. Oh, initially it wouldn't but there is no way the UTA will let 600 million in savings go by without cutting it out of the taxes. Eventually, as with the higher ed system, a fTE model will be used by the legislature and public schools lacking the funding and with the most expensive students to educate, will rapidly fall behind their private competitors.
The only ones who will benefit are those rich enough to put their students in top private schools and who will receive a disproportionate amount of the inevitable tax cut.
Brad | 10:33 a.m. Sept. 27, 2007
The voucher proponents should fire their marketing people. What was once a good
idea has turned into a war between public and private school. The radio adds
are nauseating. Spend your money telling us about the benefits of vouchers and
forget the Hillary Clinton, Move on dot org nonsense. Stop insulting the public
school teachers and the parents who send their kids to public schools. We do
have a choice and we have choosen to send our kids to public schools. My bet,
is that vouchers will be defeated by a large margin. Next time, avoid the
public vs private debate and stick to the issue of whats best for taxpayers.
James | 10:34 a.m. Sept. 27, 2007
And JotaB, what is to stop the legislature from taking the savings and buying
another soccer stadium?
A great BIG reason that the savings will not be spent on a tax cut is where the savings will occur. The savings take place in the Uniform School Fund. When is the last time a tax cut was funded from this fund?
And for those who don't follow the minutia, the Uniform School Fund is just for education. The rest of the state (roads, health, parks, etc) come from the General Fund. The soccer stadium came from the General Fund. The School Fund remains HARMLESS.
As for Higher Ed taking your money, that is the Unions fault. Most conservatives fought AGAINST the ballot issue in the 90's that gave Higher Ed the ability to raid your money. The Union fought for it and called all those who opposed them "anti-education" just as they do now; poor choice on their part.
The savings do not need some sort of balance of "switchers." The savings are realized with the first child. The Union schools immediately discover they have one less of set of books, curriculum, fee waivers, etc to deal with.
A great BIG reason that the savings will not be spent on a tax cut is where the savings will occur. The savings take place in the Uniform School Fund. When is the last time a tax cut was funded from this fund?
And for those who don't follow the minutia, the Uniform School Fund is just for education. The rest of the state (roads, health, parks, etc) come from the General Fund. The soccer stadium came from the General Fund. The School Fund remains HARMLESS.
As for Higher Ed taking your money, that is the Unions fault. Most conservatives fought AGAINST the ballot issue in the 90's that gave Higher Ed the ability to raid your money. The Union fought for it and called all those who opposed them "anti-education" just as they do now; poor choice on their part.
The savings do not need some sort of balance of "switchers." The savings are realized with the first child. The Union schools immediately discover they have one less of set of books, curriculum, fee waivers, etc to deal with.
Fredd | 11:11 a.m. Sept. 27, 2007
James--I bet you are very into multi level marketing. If I have 30 students in
my class at $6000 per student I get $180,000 per classroom. If I have 29
students times $6030.30 I have $174,878.70 per classroom. That's a loss of
over $5000 per classroom. Maybe you can sell your neighbors AMWAY with that
math but not me. And by the way, I've lived in 5 states and went to
catholic school (my parents paid for it) and public school. Utah schools are not
failing. They are excellent. And economical.
MEB | 11:48 a.m. Sept. 27, 2007
Fredd - Since the DMN didn't screen your belittling comments, I'll
respond to defend James' comments. This in no way resembles MLM. For
years the UEA has been hitting us over the head with the statistic that we are
last in the nation in per pupil spending. Are you now saying you think we
should calculate it as per classroom spending? If so, we'll look really
good, since we have some of the largest classrooms in the country. For the sake
of round numbers, if we are spending $6000 per studend today, and 3%
(today's estimate of students who attend private school) leave, that would
increase per pupil spending to $6093. If the estimated 10% leave, that's
$6333 per student.
If the UEA doesn't want to grade funding on per pupil dollars, they should quit asking for it!
If the UEA doesn't want to grade funding on per pupil dollars, they should quit asking for it!
James | 12:08 p.m. Sept. 27, 2007
Fredd, personally attacking the messenger works well for some. Have at it. The
fact is we are talking about system reform and the savings are quite real.
Why in the world can't a Union class manage on $180,000 per classroom?!? The possibilities are amazing!
This is a perfect example of massive bureaucracy at work, which is why they struggle financially.
I would LOVE it if public schools went to site based financing. Send all of the money to each public Union school, let them hire out the services they need. And if they perform at certain levels of expectation they can start handing out the money as bonuses to high performing teachers based on realistic criteria.
Oh wait, Unions killed any attempt at that idea as well.
I spoke with one Principal and played out a scenario for her. She could create a small school with 5 classes of 25 kids each. Take the voucher and have $375,000 to operate it on. Could she make it work? She knew of a facility she could rent for $3500/mo, throw in utilities, etc - purchase curriculum, desks, hire teachers, insurance, etc. All on $3k/yr.
She is quietly hoping vouchers pass!
Why in the world can't a Union class manage on $180,000 per classroom?!? The possibilities are amazing!
This is a perfect example of massive bureaucracy at work, which is why they struggle financially.
I would LOVE it if public schools went to site based financing. Send all of the money to each public Union school, let them hire out the services they need. And if they perform at certain levels of expectation they can start handing out the money as bonuses to high performing teachers based on realistic criteria.
Oh wait, Unions killed any attempt at that idea as well.
I spoke with one Principal and played out a scenario for her. She could create a small school with 5 classes of 25 kids each. Take the voucher and have $375,000 to operate it on. Could she make it work? She knew of a facility she could rent for $3500/mo, throw in utilities, etc - purchase curriculum, desks, hire teachers, insurance, etc. All on $3k/yr.
She is quietly hoping vouchers pass!
kerrybishop54 | 12:30 p.m. Sept. 27, 2007
James, you really, really dislike the "union" (I assume that you mean
NEA/UEA). I wonder why.
MEB | 1:48 p.m. Sept. 27, 2007
You wonder why? Look at his numbers! The district gets about $180,000 per
classroom, and that's not enough? Is it because they are building $45M
high schools? Is it because their administration costs are too top heavy, and
there is no incentive to reign those costs in? The "union" (NEA/UEA)
fights to keep all of that, and refuses to give reasonable consideration to any
real change for the better. They are fixated on status quo. NCLB is not the
answer, but it's there because school districts across the country - as a
whole - have failed to provide us with the answer.
I get a kick out of the anti voucher argument that you can't have public funds to go private schools because there is no accountability. No accountability? I've got a great example for you of a school system with no accountability.
In short, I've finally reached the point where I am for anything the UEA is against, and vice versa.
I get a kick out of the anti voucher argument that you can't have public funds to go private schools because there is no accountability. No accountability? I've got a great example for you of a school system with no accountability.
In short, I've finally reached the point where I am for anything the UEA is against, and vice versa.
Fredd | 2:07 p.m. Sept. 27, 2007
I didn't belittle James--I belittled his math by comparing it to MLM. The
point is you don't get $6000 per student. Numbers can be twisted and turned
any number of ways to support any arguement. James math does not pass my logic
test. The per pupil funding does not go into each classroom. It is spread out
over the entire states education infrastructure and beaurecracy (sp). Any
reform that reduced those costs would increase the classroom share of the
budget. But taking money out of the bottomline, without those reforms, takes
the money out of the classroom. Now if your arguement is to starve the beast
and force reforms that's one thing. We can underfund the school system
until the pain is so bad in the classroom we force reform. But you are stating
there will be more money if we go to a voucher system. Sorry, that's not
true. Unless you raise taxes to pay for the vouchers. FYI, your use of
"union" schools instead of public schools is belittling to the fine
teachers.
kerrybishop54 | 3:11 p.m. Sept. 27, 2007
MEB -- Google private schools utah. Then pick some at random and look at the
cost of tuition. Private schools cost more than public schools. If we use
figures provided by Parents for Choice in Education website (a pro-voucher
group), public schools cost $7500 per student per year. Private school tuition
averages $9000.00 per student per year. Look at the numbers. Public schools
are a good deal. To claim they are more expensive and wasteful than private
schools is a lie.
MEB | 3:21 p.m. Sept. 27, 2007
Fredd - Do you mean those fine teachers who go on strike as a union? They
behave as a union, so 'if it walks like a duck and quacks like a
duck...'
Don't get me wrong, I have a high degree of respect for teachers. I hope to be able to spend the last half of my career as a high school teacher (after I have made enough money to be able to afford it). The problem is not with the good teachers in the school system. In my mind, it's in the top heavy bureaucracy (had to look that one up) and expense of building new, expensive schools that is the problem. Since you don't like James' math, just think through this one for a minute. On average, it costs $180K per classroom. How much are you paying the teacher? What portion of the school's overall cost is that one classroom? Materials? How in the world do you come up with $180K? Could you be more efficient in some areas, hire more teachers, pay them more, and get more for the $180K per classroom than we are currently getting?
Don't get me wrong, I have a high degree of respect for teachers. I hope to be able to spend the last half of my career as a high school teacher (after I have made enough money to be able to afford it). The problem is not with the good teachers in the school system. In my mind, it's in the top heavy bureaucracy (had to look that one up) and expense of building new, expensive schools that is the problem. Since you don't like James' math, just think through this one for a minute. On average, it costs $180K per classroom. How much are you paying the teacher? What portion of the school's overall cost is that one classroom? Materials? How in the world do you come up with $180K? Could you be more efficient in some areas, hire more teachers, pay them more, and get more for the $180K per classroom than we are currently getting?
bob | 3:29 p.m. Sept. 27, 2007
FRK & Mom- The "union" has never said stay the course (did you
miss that when I said they contend public education is not perfect). They are
asking for reform. They are asking to not be accountable to a test that they
have to teach to but be able to the things that the students need. Teachers and
parents are asking to invest that money into smaller class sizes. Your right,
it isn't about more money but money that is put in the right place. The
money only stays in the public school system for 5 years. If a kid takes the
voucher in 1st grade the potential jr high never sees a penny. You want your
kids to be taught math so they know it than start fighting the correct war and
ask for the standardized tests not to be the litmus test for schools but come up
with a better way to make them accountable. You can complain about how bad they
are but vouchers are not where the problems are solved. According to you the
system is broken. How about we fix it for everyone. I guess you are only
concerned about you.
MEB | 3:36 p.m. Sept. 27, 2007
KB54 - Some private schools cost more than public schools. You are not looking
at an apples to apples comparison. Some have smaller class sizes by design, and
they charge for it. Others have about the same size of classroom, and
they're less expensive.
Fredd | 3:45 p.m. Sept. 27, 2007
What's wrong with going on strike? What's wrong with unions? Some
unions have behaved stupidly and damaged their industry. But the idea of
unionization and organized labor has done more for the working man then any
republican ever did. Teachers are under paid for the training they are required
to have. The only leverage they have is to strike. I live in a right to work
state (am a former Utah resident) and wages are unbelievably low. My
wife's co-worker was fired after 18 years with the firm because a new
partner didn't like her. Schools are much, much worse here. I long for
the good Utah schools with high morals and parent involvement.
Rural | 4:01 p.m. Sept. 27, 2007
Lets see maybe im confused a little but if you flush $6000 down the public
school toilet per student or $6030.30 doen't it all end up in the same
place? A failed system with no competition is still a failed system. Most of the
working peaple in the wold compete for there jobs, why not the public schools?
It's not about rich verses poor or teachers verses parents IT'S FOR
THE KIDS, IT'S FOR THE FUTURE OF OUR NATION. Teachers get a grip, for the
first time there will be other choices for the parents. Parents remember if you
take the private school choice you get that quality time with the kids driving
them to school every day look at the homework options there. Bottom line is
teachers are scared that the gifted students will go to better schools and leave
them with lower test scores which of course is how it should be.Maybe like this
(land of the free home of the brave) I can,t say (in god we trust) couse it will
offend public schools everywere.
MEB | 4:17 p.m. Sept. 27, 2007
I don't know, Fredd, you are the one who said the use of Union was
'belittling to fine teachers.' Make up your mind, is it belittling or
not?
Floyd | 5:27 p.m. Sept. 27, 2007
MEB,
Actually the UEA has asked the board of Education to investigate the Top heavy, pork barrell projects of the big school districts. There seems to be no accountability on the board for this.
The UEA (or the term Union as some would prefer) really wants MORE money to get down to the school level and to the teachers.
The UEA has fought with the school districts about the funding not reaching the indiviual schools. They believe the money gets lost between the board and the schools.
Actually the UEA has asked the board of Education to investigate the Top heavy, pork barrell projects of the big school districts. There seems to be no accountability on the board for this.
The UEA (or the term Union as some would prefer) really wants MORE money to get down to the school level and to the teachers.
The UEA has fought with the school districts about the funding not reaching the indiviual schools. They believe the money gets lost between the board and the schools.
Anonymous | 6:08 p.m. Sept. 27, 2007
So James, Where were you when the environmentals first started their campaining
or started teaching these things? Where were you when Madeline Murray
O'Hare started waging all out war against any form of religion in school
and now in our society? Where were you when the Anti-American movement started
preaching their American Hatered? Where were you when all these things first
started? WE have only our selves to blame for all of this. You want to compound
the problem by enabling the government to stick its hands into another private
entity. What happens when the government EVER funds a new program. They begin
putting restrictions upon it. Public shools are the generally accepted bations
for liberalisim, because WE DID NOTHING!!!!!! We sat back and said, " Oh,
that's such a shame, but what can I do? Oh, know, Matlock is on, gotta
go." We let the government know loud and clear that we can't be
bothered with these "little things." Next thing you know, the
revisionist historians are teaching that our founding fathers were just a bunch
of homophobic, racist, bigots who stole the land away from the poor innocent
indians. Had we been more vigilant, this wouldn't be true.
Davis County Resident | 6:14 p.m. Sept. 27, 2007
1- Why is it the loudest voices against vouchers are from career Education
employees, like Kim Burningham and Sheryl Allen?
2- The teachers we know would love to get certain kids OUT of their classrooms, who are faster or slower or learn differently, and need more individual attention than they have time to provide.
3- Utah has near the highest per-capita taxation yet we will never able to afford all the teachers we need because the Catholics (many of them Spanish) and LDS and other conservatives believe in BIG families. One more reason to encourage non-rich families to make the several sacrifices necessary to send their kids to the other schools.
2- The teachers we know would love to get certain kids OUT of their classrooms, who are faster or slower or learn differently, and need more individual attention than they have time to provide.
3- Utah has near the highest per-capita taxation yet we will never able to afford all the teachers we need because the Catholics (many of them Spanish) and LDS and other conservatives believe in BIG families. One more reason to encourage non-rich families to make the several sacrifices necessary to send their kids to the other schools.
James | 7:27 p.m. Sept. 27, 2007
So I go to a Board meeting (for a corporation) and come back to see the crud has
hit the fan.
Anonymous, in the legal profession you learn to not ask rhetorical questions that you do not know the answer to when hammering someone. When you violate that one, you risk getting a massive facial. I will spare you details but I will say that I cut my teeth on advocacy during high school years in the 1980's.
And what you are describing about Govt takeover is generally accurate. In this case vouchers are deregulating. And many private schools will not accept vouchers, good for them, their curriculum, focus and principles. For those willing to provide an affordable education, with the voucher - complying with law, our students and the system will only benefit for it.
Anonymous, in the legal profession you learn to not ask rhetorical questions that you do not know the answer to when hammering someone. When you violate that one, you risk getting a massive facial. I will spare you details but I will say that I cut my teeth on advocacy during high school years in the 1980's.
And what you are describing about Govt takeover is generally accurate. In this case vouchers are deregulating. And many private schools will not accept vouchers, good for them, their curriculum, focus and principles. For those willing to provide an affordable education, with the voucher - complying with law, our students and the system will only benefit for it.
James | 7:35 p.m. Sept. 27, 2007
Fredd, you are right you don't get $6,000 per student. In fact, it is more
than that. And since the Districts do not do site based financing it will never
show that way.
I have helped set the budgets for about a dozen charter schools. They work with less though it seems more because they focus on costs per student. They skip multiple levels of administration and do quite well. And they truly focus on costs per student for the most part because that is how they are funded. If they cannot please the clients, they lose students and there goes the budget.
If a Union school loses 100 students the District will make them whole. If a charter school loses 100 they face being shut down; read Liberty Academy in Salem just last week.
Just because the Union system has a big government way of setting and operating budgets, that is not our problem.
And the math works. Please, explain to me why a classroom generating $180,000 cannot make it. Or why a school with 750 kids, or $4,500,000 cannot pay their teachers more, purchase books for all kids, etc. Charter schools have been doing it all along.
I have helped set the budgets for about a dozen charter schools. They work with less though it seems more because they focus on costs per student. They skip multiple levels of administration and do quite well. And they truly focus on costs per student for the most part because that is how they are funded. If they cannot please the clients, they lose students and there goes the budget.
If a Union school loses 100 students the District will make them whole. If a charter school loses 100 they face being shut down; read Liberty Academy in Salem just last week.
Just because the Union system has a big government way of setting and operating budgets, that is not our problem.
And the math works. Please, explain to me why a classroom generating $180,000 cannot make it. Or why a school with 750 kids, or $4,500,000 cannot pay their teachers more, purchase books for all kids, etc. Charter schools have been doing it all along.
kerrybishop54 | 8:31 p.m. Sept. 27, 2007
MEB & James: I still disagree with the math. How is my comparison not
"apples to apples?" I took the AVERAGE cost per student per year for
both systems. I took it from the same website. I took it from a pro-voucher
website. And the results were: public education is a better deal. Public ed
does it cheaper than the private sector. We are talking average dollars here
for both systems. As you mentioned for the private sector. Costs vary. Some
students are more expensive for the public sector. Some are cheaper. Average
dollars are, well, averaged. And James, the private sector is not cheaper in
costs. They are, on average, more expensive. And they tend to pay their
teachers the same wages, or less. Many private school teachers WANT to move to
the public schools. So what's your point?
Where is the Research? | 9:03 p.m. Sept. 27, 2007
I am opposed to vouchers for one reason...because our legislature felt compelled
to pass the bill without justification. Where was the research? What are the
estimates on the number of students that will leave the system?
Someone opening a private school would have to provide a detailed business case in order to secure a small business loan, and get a piece of those $3000 vouchers. Yet our legislators made the multi-million dollar voucher decision with no business case, and against public demand. Seems a little ironic considering their 'conservative' base. Actions like this cause ethical folks to question the underlying motives.
In addition, the numbers that are being thrown around on this board are of little value. Of all the calculations posted, not one has considered the increase in administrative costs that will take place to manage the revolving door of students into and out of the public schools. Whether at a governmental or school administration level, someone will have to shuffle the papers and keep track of it all.
It's possible that vouchers have a place in the education solution, but until our state leaders can prove vouchers stand on their own, I vote no.
Someone opening a private school would have to provide a detailed business case in order to secure a small business loan, and get a piece of those $3000 vouchers. Yet our legislators made the multi-million dollar voucher decision with no business case, and against public demand. Seems a little ironic considering their 'conservative' base. Actions like this cause ethical folks to question the underlying motives.
In addition, the numbers that are being thrown around on this board are of little value. Of all the calculations posted, not one has considered the increase in administrative costs that will take place to manage the revolving door of students into and out of the public schools. Whether at a governmental or school administration level, someone will have to shuffle the papers and keep track of it all.
It's possible that vouchers have a place in the education solution, but until our state leaders can prove vouchers stand on their own, I vote no.
oldy but goody | 9:10 p.m. Sept. 27, 2007
To Davis resident---
I am a teacher, and yes that would be nice to lose "certain" kids out of my classroom, but what makes you think that the private schools would take them? Private schools can pick and choose the students who attend their schools. Public schools have no choice. We take the good, the bad, etc. etc.
I am a teacher, and yes that would be nice to lose "certain" kids out of my classroom, but what makes you think that the private schools would take them? Private schools can pick and choose the students who attend their schools. Public schools have no choice. We take the good, the bad, etc. etc.
Missing the true point. | 10:45 p.m. Sept. 27, 2007
This whole blog is missing the point of the anti-voucher proponents. We are not
against competition or choice. We simply don't believe that the current
bill addresses either.
The fact of the matter is: vouchers only benefit the rich.
Even if a student gets $3000 to go to a private school (which only the poorest of students will get), this will only cover, on average, 75% of the student's private education (average price of private school education in Utah is $4200).
The people who need the "choice" don't have the $1200 to make up the difference, therefore, it only benefits those that already have the choice: the rich.
Whether the public school gets $3000 or not is really irrelevant. (especially when if the student were in the public school they would get $6000). On average, it would only be likely that class sizes would shrink by 1-2 students.
Be honest with yourself... isn't school kinda like a pot of soup... add a little water and you feed an extra without much problem... but even then you have $6000 more per class rather than $3000.
Get your heads out of your economics book and look at reality.
The fact of the matter is: vouchers only benefit the rich.
Even if a student gets $3000 to go to a private school (which only the poorest of students will get), this will only cover, on average, 75% of the student's private education (average price of private school education in Utah is $4200).
The people who need the "choice" don't have the $1200 to make up the difference, therefore, it only benefits those that already have the choice: the rich.
Whether the public school gets $3000 or not is really irrelevant. (especially when if the student were in the public school they would get $6000). On average, it would only be likely that class sizes would shrink by 1-2 students.
Be honest with yourself... isn't school kinda like a pot of soup... add a little water and you feed an extra without much problem... but even then you have $6000 more per class rather than $3000.
Get your heads out of your economics book and look at reality.
James | 11:05 p.m. Sept. 27, 2007
KerryBishop54, sorry but I missed your "apples to apples" post, so I
can't comment on it.
As for the private sector being cheaper. The best example we have is that of charter schools. On the average they operate on less and provide roughly the same to increased benefit.
This past year the legislature increased funding for charter schools, which I opposed. So now they are likely pretty close to equal, depends on district as the state provides to all charter schools at one rate to compensate for certain district expenses.
I have been around two private schools. Their administration costs are lower, they spend far less on facilities, and instructional material. They are more innovative in the use of technology. This of course reflects two schools, and cannot represent all private schools. And they charged about $6500/yr.
The public system is inherintly ineffecient. Even on this board poster have mentioned how the Union has asked for audits of the District offices. The state does audits showing districts cannot even find money appropriated to them specifically to purchase text books, classize.
While both lines of thought are anecdotal, there is certainly no evidence that public schools are less expensive to operate.
As for the private sector being cheaper. The best example we have is that of charter schools. On the average they operate on less and provide roughly the same to increased benefit.
This past year the legislature increased funding for charter schools, which I opposed. So now they are likely pretty close to equal, depends on district as the state provides to all charter schools at one rate to compensate for certain district expenses.
I have been around two private schools. Their administration costs are lower, they spend far less on facilities, and instructional material. They are more innovative in the use of technology. This of course reflects two schools, and cannot represent all private schools. And they charged about $6500/yr.
The public system is inherintly ineffecient. Even on this board poster have mentioned how the Union has asked for audits of the District offices. The state does audits showing districts cannot even find money appropriated to them specifically to purchase text books, classize.
While both lines of thought are anecdotal, there is certainly no evidence that public schools are less expensive to operate.
Hal | 5:56 a.m. Sept. 28, 2007
Well, let's follow the case of the Milwaukee school system. They started
offering vouchers for $1900 per year in1990; now they're up to $5100 per
kid per year. Where did that extra $3000 plus come from? Read my lips: NEW
TAXES. Puts an ironic twist on that whole idea of a tax break, doesn't
it?
But not all that money came from new taxes, right? Surely the fine legislators in Wisconsin re-apportioned the budget? Actually, the money that did not come from new taxes was taken from existing school programs. According to Paulette Copeland, head of the Milwaukee Teachers' Education Association, "They have cut reading teachers, music teachers, gym teachers, and educational assistants."
Oh, I know what you're thinking. Let them cut up the public schools. We're trying to get rid of them eventually anyway. Let's privatize the entire system of education in America.
Not so fast, partner. Consider these facts. Private schools can exclude anyone they want. Most private schools won't accept kids who score low on standardized tests, ditch class, act up, have learning disabilities, have low grades, or weren't born speaking English. A voucher may help a student pay for school, but it doesn't get her in.
But not all that money came from new taxes, right? Surely the fine legislators in Wisconsin re-apportioned the budget? Actually, the money that did not come from new taxes was taken from existing school programs. According to Paulette Copeland, head of the Milwaukee Teachers' Education Association, "They have cut reading teachers, music teachers, gym teachers, and educational assistants."
Oh, I know what you're thinking. Let them cut up the public schools. We're trying to get rid of them eventually anyway. Let's privatize the entire system of education in America.
Not so fast, partner. Consider these facts. Private schools can exclude anyone they want. Most private schools won't accept kids who score low on standardized tests, ditch class, act up, have learning disabilities, have low grades, or weren't born speaking English. A voucher may help a student pay for school, but it doesn't get her in.
DD | 7:57 a.m. Sept. 28, 2007
I still haven't seen the poor quality of Utah schools. I have looked at
many school scores from around the country, and ours are looking pretty good.
It would be nice if classrooms saw more of the money that is spent on them.
That is a 'trim the fat' issue.' Private schools might not have
all the fat, but then they don't put all their money in the classroom
either. My kids have attended public school, and one even went to a charter
school. I have no complaint with the excellent teachers they have had.
As to the person from Davis County. Don't hate the fact that I have a large family. We pay taxes into the system too, and I spend a lot of time working with my children in the schools. I am sure that when you are ready to draw on social security, you will not cry as loudly that my large number of children are the ones helping to pay for you. We are all in this together.
There are many states with fewer children per household that pay almost double of what Utah does for schools. High taxes doesn't equal money to large families.
As to the person from Davis County. Don't hate the fact that I have a large family. We pay taxes into the system too, and I spend a lot of time working with my children in the schools. I am sure that when you are ready to draw on social security, you will not cry as loudly that my large number of children are the ones helping to pay for you. We are all in this together.
There are many states with fewer children per household that pay almost double of what Utah does for schools. High taxes doesn't equal money to large families.
Cleopatra | 2:05 p.m. Sept. 28, 2007
Vouchers are a solution to a long standing problem. The monopoly of the UEA/NEA
determining our children's education is due for termination! Vouchers
promote free market and choice in the matter of our children and their
schooling. It doesn't matter if future children never enter the public
school arena. Better for them!!! In fact better for our state and communities!
We will have children from day one who's parents were given the choice to
send them to higher achieving schools. These students will benefit from our
courage today!!! Vote for vouchers because the current school system has been
given millions of dollars over the years and has done little to improve their
system.
JPH | 12:11 p.m. Sept. 29, 2007
Rep. Sheryl Allen well defends her socialist view in Do the math-vote against
vouchers. However, the issue is not whether students will be leaving public
schools to use their tax money for education; it is really about choice and
fairness. The legislature already did the math. Utah has long enjoyed the
reduced costs gained by the load carried on the backs of private and
homeschoolers. It is time for those who choose private education to share in
the taxes raised for schooling. When the teachers finally get a chance at what
they have been clamoring for for so long, namely more money for less students,
they then distort the subject. Before, parents who chose alternatives were
simply good riddance. Now they are either ignorant or disloyal. Once again the
UEA wants to make it about �their�
money. We all have an interest in education. We all have an investment
through our taxes. The freely elected state legislature finally got it right,
including special advantages for the less fortunate. This is now a matter of
fairness and choice. UEA greed and power have no place in a free society.
DJS | 2:36 a.m. Oct. 3, 2007
To those of you who said there is no solution to fix all schools you are
wrong... privatize our schools... bring back responsibility and create a system
where teachers and schools must perform or they will no longer be in business.
Isn't that how most of us are judged in our jobs and with our companies?
Why should our schools be any different? A recent investigative report by Jon
Stossel of 20/20 showed that our public school system has dropped our education
standards out of the top twenty first-rate nations... with the money we have
shouldn't we be number one?
It's sad, but the teacher's union is way too strong and while vouchers may not solve every problem, it's a start towards changing a very broken and CORRUPT system.
It's sad, but the teacher's union is way too strong and while vouchers may not solve every problem, it's a start towards changing a very broken and CORRUPT system.
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