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Voucher 'threat' sparks debate
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Dick | 11:18 a.m. Sept. 25, 2007
I agree with "no longer". We the people should be able to choose how
to spend the general tax money. And, on November 6, we will make that
decision.
That's how it's supposed to work.
That's how it's supposed to work.
m | 11:31 a.m. Sept. 25, 2007
I was 'hit up' at a church meeting to sign the anti voucher petition.
When I refused and explained that I support vouchers; the other mom was
dumbfounded and tried to convince me how our local schools would be hurt. She
really didn't know what she was talking about, but was paroting what she
had been told in her public school associations.
My two children go to a private school for a miriad of reasons. The vouchers will not affect our family either way because we earn too much money to qualify for them anyway. I continue to support them as a matter of principle.
I just can't understand why the Public Ed. supporters are so afraid. The public schools will net more $$ per student when they don't have to educate those children who leave their system. Aren't they always complaining about class size? It's a win- win for everyone except those who are all about power and control.
LET PARENTS CHOOSE!!!!!
My two children go to a private school for a miriad of reasons. The vouchers will not affect our family either way because we earn too much money to qualify for them anyway. I continue to support them as a matter of principle.
I just can't understand why the Public Ed. supporters are so afraid. The public schools will net more $$ per student when they don't have to educate those children who leave their system. Aren't they always complaining about class size? It's a win- win for everyone except those who are all about power and control.
LET PARENTS CHOOSE!!!!!
Comments continue below
Get Smart -Get Educated | 11:32 a.m. Sept. 25, 2007
Seriously you sound lime a commercial. I imagine you have been to a school but
maybe not.
Every college freshman knows unless they cite a source their "facts" are only opinions.
And you are a little silly to believe that certified teachers means good teachers.
Every college freshman knows unless they cite a source their "facts" are only opinions.
And you are a little silly to believe that certified teachers means good teachers.
Craig | 11:34 a.m. Sept. 25, 2007
Dick, when financial support is only given to those who choose to attend
government schools, then there is no real choice in the sense of what we are
dicusssing.
The choice you describe is "our way or the highway". If I walk into a store I have a choice to purchase a product or not. But if I am forced to pay for the product whether I purchase it or not, it is not a free "choice".
When pressed on the lack of political freedom in Iran, their ruling council (which must approve all candidates) replied that people in Iran enjoy complete political freedom, they can vote for the candidates the ruling council provides or not. That is the type of choice that you are describing, a misuse of the word for this discussion.
The choice you describe is "our way or the highway". If I walk into a store I have a choice to purchase a product or not. But if I am forced to pay for the product whether I purchase it or not, it is not a free "choice".
When pressed on the lack of political freedom in Iran, their ruling council (which must approve all candidates) replied that people in Iran enjoy complete political freedom, they can vote for the candidates the ruling council provides or not. That is the type of choice that you are describing, a misuse of the word for this discussion.
Tired | 11:38 a.m. Sept. 25, 2007
The article claims that the private schools get the voucher money. I wonder how
many legislators have business ties to private schools? I know of one senator
for sure and given the comments of David Clark I�d mortgage
the house and bet it all that there are more.
I�m tired of the politics in this state and our elected officials always getting a free pass just because they are somebody who knows someone who has an uncle that knows they are in the same ward or stake as their sisters next door neighbor. It�s beyond sickening and I�m of the predominant faith here.
This much is for sure, public education in Utah is in the toilet and since our legislators can�t seem to do anything about it they might as well profit from it. Looks to me like Dave hasn�t figured out how to profit from health care yet and is buying time.
Lord I can�t for the life of me figure out how these people keep getting reelected. What is wrong with you people down there in Santa Clara and St. George?
I�m tired of the politics in this state and our elected officials always getting a free pass just because they are somebody who knows someone who has an uncle that knows they are in the same ward or stake as their sisters next door neighbor. It�s beyond sickening and I�m of the predominant faith here.
This much is for sure, public education in Utah is in the toilet and since our legislators can�t seem to do anything about it they might as well profit from it. Looks to me like Dave hasn�t figured out how to profit from health care yet and is buying time.
Lord I can�t for the life of me figure out how these people keep getting reelected. What is wrong with you people down there in Santa Clara and St. George?
Me thinks... | 11:58 a.m. Sept. 25, 2007
Craig,
I must applaud your reasoning and your response to L. You took the words right out of my mouth. I think you make several points I myself would make. I do however want to see if I can't add to what I see as a flaw in your previous arguement. Your arguement can also lead to others who don't have children making the claim that they should not have to pay for schooling because they don't have children there. It is for the betterment of society that everyone pays into the system. Therefore, everyone should contribute, whether to public or private. I'm sure you know this but I just wanted to add it.
I'am pro voucher but I also think that we were all created equal in the sight of God and think that each child should get an equal share of the tax money. Therefore, I don't agree with the fluxuation in how much one will receive.
KC,
Many do want vouchers, if not, why would we be here discussing it?
I must applaud your reasoning and your response to L. You took the words right out of my mouth. I think you make several points I myself would make. I do however want to see if I can't add to what I see as a flaw in your previous arguement. Your arguement can also lead to others who don't have children making the claim that they should not have to pay for schooling because they don't have children there. It is for the betterment of society that everyone pays into the system. Therefore, everyone should contribute, whether to public or private. I'm sure you know this but I just wanted to add it.
I'am pro voucher but I also think that we were all created equal in the sight of God and think that each child should get an equal share of the tax money. Therefore, I don't agree with the fluxuation in how much one will receive.
KC,
Many do want vouchers, if not, why would we be here discussing it?
My thoughts | 12:17 p.m. Sept. 25, 2007
Pro-voucher people:
I see that the main sentiment to your argument is that "you pay taxes, therefore you should get something back." I understand your sentiments. The problem is, the voucher bill is flawed.
We anti-voucher people are not against people getting something back from their tax dollars, what we are against is only a certain portion of the population getting anything back.
The way that the current law is set up a person wanting to put their child into a private school will receive 500-3000 dollars to do so. I recently saw an article saying that the average cost per year of a private school in Utah was right around 4200 dollars. What this means, is that if you want to have the 'choice' you are talking about, then you will need to make up the difference.
In most cases, those who have the $1200-3700 to make up the difference are those who already have a choice.
I will not vote for a law that only benefits the rich... I will however vote for a law that only benefits the poor. Especially when the only reason they are poor is because they are kids.
I see that the main sentiment to your argument is that "you pay taxes, therefore you should get something back." I understand your sentiments. The problem is, the voucher bill is flawed.
We anti-voucher people are not against people getting something back from their tax dollars, what we are against is only a certain portion of the population getting anything back.
The way that the current law is set up a person wanting to put their child into a private school will receive 500-3000 dollars to do so. I recently saw an article saying that the average cost per year of a private school in Utah was right around 4200 dollars. What this means, is that if you want to have the 'choice' you are talking about, then you will need to make up the difference.
In most cases, those who have the $1200-3700 to make up the difference are those who already have a choice.
I will not vote for a law that only benefits the rich... I will however vote for a law that only benefits the poor. Especially when the only reason they are poor is because they are kids.
Mark | 12:18 p.m. Sept. 25, 2007
How can voucher supporters claim they are conservative? They are trying to
create another expense for the state by subsidizing private education! Will the
needs of public education decrease? I doubt it. How unconservative is that?
How can these people call themselves fiscal conservatives? Our tax burden will
eventually increase under this voucher plan.
Dick | 12:24 p.m. Sept. 25, 2007
Craig. There is still choice. If the government outlawed alternate forms of
education (private, home school, etc), then the choice would cease to exist. As
it is, the choice exists for all parents of where to educate their children.
So, I repeat, this issue is about money, not choice.
All of society pays into the public education system for the good of society. In fact, those without children pay more than those with children due to the income tax structure. Shouldn't they be getting a voucher/credit because their choice reduced the stress on the system?
So, I repeat, this issue is about money, not choice.
All of society pays into the public education system for the good of society. In fact, those without children pay more than those with children due to the income tax structure. Shouldn't they be getting a voucher/credit because their choice reduced the stress on the system?
Charles H | 12:26 p.m. Sept. 25, 2007
Just a few things to consider about our current government schools.
95% of all Utah students attend government schools.
National average is 90%.
25% of high school seniors are failing one or more of the basic competency tests required for a full diploma. Students get FOUR chances to take these tests: once in 10th grade, once in 11th, twice in 12th.
Our AVERAGE test scores are higher than other States ONLY when you combine all racial groups together. We have fewer "under represented" minorities in Utah than other States. When adjusted by race, our averages are lower than other States. Quick example of how:
Utah has ten students: 9 from group A, 1 from group B.
A scores: 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5.
B scores: 2.
Average of all scores: 4.7.
NY State has ten students: 5 from each group.
A scores: 6, 6, 6, 6, 6.
B scores: 3, 3, 3, 3, 3.
Average of all scores: 4.5.
And we have seen Utah's AVERAGE test scores decline each year the last few years as our student population becomes more diverse.
It is time to trust parents with vouchers. Some kids need them.
95% of all Utah students attend government schools.
National average is 90%.
25% of high school seniors are failing one or more of the basic competency tests required for a full diploma. Students get FOUR chances to take these tests: once in 10th grade, once in 11th, twice in 12th.
Our AVERAGE test scores are higher than other States ONLY when you combine all racial groups together. We have fewer "under represented" minorities in Utah than other States. When adjusted by race, our averages are lower than other States. Quick example of how:
Utah has ten students: 9 from group A, 1 from group B.
A scores: 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5.
B scores: 2.
Average of all scores: 4.7.
NY State has ten students: 5 from each group.
A scores: 6, 6, 6, 6, 6.
B scores: 3, 3, 3, 3, 3.
Average of all scores: 4.5.
And we have seen Utah's AVERAGE test scores decline each year the last few years as our student population becomes more diverse.
It is time to trust parents with vouchers. Some kids need them.
Craig | 12:37 p.m. Sept. 25, 2007
KC,
I actually believe that the cumpulsory funding of education is one of the reasons our current education system does not respond well to change.
Accordingly I would exempt the ~20% of adults who fit into that category from the taxes earmarked for education.
Some of those adults would choose to pay into the education budget anyway so I think the cost increase from exempting them would be affordable when offset with the savings from children leaving the government schools.
For me, the "benefit to society arguement" can often be misused. Home-schooling my children benefits society, but that in no way gives me the right to send my neighbors a bill for the cost. I simply recognize that most states have chosen that line of reasoning to justify compulsory funding and I'm trying to be reasonable within that framework.
I'm curious if the UEA would allow 2-3 districts to go all voucher and completely free of bureaucratic regulation as an experiment for 15 years? Then we could really analyze and compare the merits, as well as the response of parents. Would they ever go back after getting used to it?
I actually believe that the cumpulsory funding of education is one of the reasons our current education system does not respond well to change.
Accordingly I would exempt the ~20% of adults who fit into that category from the taxes earmarked for education.
Some of those adults would choose to pay into the education budget anyway so I think the cost increase from exempting them would be affordable when offset with the savings from children leaving the government schools.
For me, the "benefit to society arguement" can often be misused. Home-schooling my children benefits society, but that in no way gives me the right to send my neighbors a bill for the cost. I simply recognize that most states have chosen that line of reasoning to justify compulsory funding and I'm trying to be reasonable within that framework.
I'm curious if the UEA would allow 2-3 districts to go all voucher and completely free of bureaucratic regulation as an experiment for 15 years? Then we could really analyze and compare the merits, as well as the response of parents. Would they ever go back after getting used to it?
A pox on both your houses | 12:49 p.m. Sept. 25, 2007
The pro-voucher and anti-voucher sides both come up with some very bogus claims
to support their side. I'm not sure which side is worse.
While I think there are some legitimate reasons to oppose vouchers, I think they provide are more benefits than not so I will be supporting them.
I think we should be funding education, not schools, with our tax money. Whatever institution can provide the best education (public school, private school, home school) for the best value should be paid the money.
While I think this voucher bill is little more than a band-aid solution in that it does not go nearly far enough (only new private school students get the voucher, the rich are excluded, no home schools need apply, etc.), I think it is better than nothing.
Competition for my dollar has worked wonderfully well in the consumer markets to improve product quality, provide better service, and reduce inefficiencies. It works for colleges and universities and I think it is worth a try in the K-12 education system.
While I think there are some legitimate reasons to oppose vouchers, I think they provide are more benefits than not so I will be supporting them.
I think we should be funding education, not schools, with our tax money. Whatever institution can provide the best education (public school, private school, home school) for the best value should be paid the money.
While I think this voucher bill is little more than a band-aid solution in that it does not go nearly far enough (only new private school students get the voucher, the rich are excluded, no home schools need apply, etc.), I think it is better than nothing.
Competition for my dollar has worked wonderfully well in the consumer markets to improve product quality, provide better service, and reduce inefficiencies. It works for colleges and universities and I think it is worth a try in the K-12 education system.
Mike | 12:58 p.m. Sept. 25, 2007
My concern about private schools is that they are not really competition.
Competition implies a level playing field between public and private schools.
Now, if you want my vote for private schools, here's all you have to do:
mandate that your private school HAS to take every student that applies to their
school and cannot get rid of them regardless of what they do or don't do
until they graduate. If you do this and make them meet every federal mandate
that public schools have, then its a level playing field and then its
competition. By the way, I really don't like the library because the books
don't look as nice as they do in the bookstore. My tax dollars go to
support the library which is a government entity completing with private
enterprise. Can I make the govt. cough up a $20 Barnes and Noble gift card
every year for my "book voucher"" Also since I don't use
the UTA can I get a voucher for my car payment?
Education Choice | 1:02 p.m. Sept. 25, 2007
Our society is better with an educated population making decisions and paying
taxes. That is why we have public education.
When my daughter did not get along as well with her teacher as I thought she should, I put her in private school for a year. I paid for my decision with money that I earned. It was my choice. After that, she went back to public school. One thing I learned in public school, is that in a free market, the consumer can make their own economic decisions which is what I did.
For those of you who feel the state owes you, I have two kids and only get writeoffs for two kids. Many people I see have six to ten kids, pay minimun taxes, and complain about public education and want me to pay for their economic choice of education.
I don't think so. Send your kids wherever you want, just don't ask me to pay for it. Too many people feel they deserve to live off of the government teet.
When my daughter did not get along as well with her teacher as I thought she should, I put her in private school for a year. I paid for my decision with money that I earned. It was my choice. After that, she went back to public school. One thing I learned in public school, is that in a free market, the consumer can make their own economic decisions which is what I did.
For those of you who feel the state owes you, I have two kids and only get writeoffs for two kids. Many people I see have six to ten kids, pay minimun taxes, and complain about public education and want me to pay for their economic choice of education.
I don't think so. Send your kids wherever you want, just don't ask me to pay for it. Too many people feel they deserve to live off of the government teet.
Freedom Rocks | 1:04 p.m. Sept. 25, 2007
If you want to vote for a law that benefits the poor, you should vote FOR the
vouchers. For every $3000 that the state pays for vouchers, another $3000 is
left over for the remaining students (including the poor). Right now the state
pays about $6000 per student per year. I don't care if the rich or the
poor take advantage of the voucher, but every one that does makes it better for
all of us.
Bob | 1:07 p.m. Sept. 25, 2007
I think we all should be able to decide how our tax dollars are spent. I do not
have kids in school so I want to pay less then the folks with six kids. Why
should should we have deduction and not usage taxes. If you choose to home
school you get your bonus and hand out. What a concept. You pay for what you
use..
Charles H | 1:19 p.m. Sept. 25, 2007
Your imaginary numbers fly in the face of your argument that parents should be
trusted with vouchers. Using made up evidence does not add anything to this
discussion.
Solomon | 1:38 p.m. Sept. 25, 2007
So many generalizations - so much I, me, my...
This overwhelming attitude from the voucher proponents that "we should be able to choose how OUR tax money is spent is ludicrous!
How many other things do we pay for with OUR taxes that we get to decide how it's spent. Do we each get to choose which road our tax $$ will build or rehabilitate? Do we each get to choose which countries our military will protect or invade? Do we each determine which industries will be regulated? Do we each choose which countires will receive aid?
We all pay into the kitty, we all benefit from an education (some more than others). But clearly, we don't all put the same amount of effort into OUR children's education.
If you can afford a private education - more power to you. If you can't, maybe you should get rid of cable and spend more time with your children. Maybe their grades will improve. Surprising how much better their teacher is when you put in a little more effort at home.
We all make trade-offs for the choices we make - just stay away from the public trough when you make yours!
This overwhelming attitude from the voucher proponents that "we should be able to choose how OUR tax money is spent is ludicrous!
How many other things do we pay for with OUR taxes that we get to decide how it's spent. Do we each get to choose which road our tax $$ will build or rehabilitate? Do we each get to choose which countries our military will protect or invade? Do we each determine which industries will be regulated? Do we each choose which countires will receive aid?
We all pay into the kitty, we all benefit from an education (some more than others). But clearly, we don't all put the same amount of effort into OUR children's education.
If you can afford a private education - more power to you. If you can't, maybe you should get rid of cable and spend more time with your children. Maybe their grades will improve. Surprising how much better their teacher is when you put in a little more effort at home.
We all make trade-offs for the choices we make - just stay away from the public trough when you make yours!
Craig | 1:42 p.m. Sept. 25, 2007
Dick, the voucher issue is all about providing a meaningful choice. The choice
you say that people have is not meaningful to most parents and the UEA/NEA knows
it.
Real and meaningful educational choice would unlock millions of dollars from UEA/NEA control so perhpas to them it is about money, but not to parents.
Utah's only compelling interest is providing "for" the education of children, not providing it. However, the UEA is focused on limiting the providers to one, themselves, to preserve their lock on the money.
It is about choice of providers, and that is what the UEA fears. If we take down the UEA walls and give parents meaningful choices some parents will leave, then more and more and more will do the same.
Real and meaningful educational choice would unlock millions of dollars from UEA/NEA control so perhpas to them it is about money, but not to parents.
Utah's only compelling interest is providing "for" the education of children, not providing it. However, the UEA is focused on limiting the providers to one, themselves, to preserve their lock on the money.
It is about choice of providers, and that is what the UEA fears. If we take down the UEA walls and give parents meaningful choices some parents will leave, then more and more and more will do the same.
June | 1:48 p.m. Sept. 25, 2007
Dear Fundnig for Education & others:
The proof that vouchers will cost public dollars rather than save dollars is found in the Utah Voter Information Pahphlet which is legally required to be impartial.
Read the fiscal impact statement. It proves that vouchers, when fully implemented will cost somewhere between $43 and $60 million per year.
It's another entitlement program -- that is not needed.
The proof that vouchers will cost public dollars rather than save dollars is found in the Utah Voter Information Pahphlet which is legally required to be impartial.
Read the fiscal impact statement. It proves that vouchers, when fully implemented will cost somewhere between $43 and $60 million per year.
It's another entitlement program -- that is not needed.
ron | 2:18 p.m. Sept. 25, 2007
thank you craig for putting some really good information forward in these blogs.
you who want proof about figures should pay attention and become learned. you
who think it is the local people that run the unions need to have some
come-uppance in union education. I have many good friends who are teachers and I
want to remain friends with them, but I hope they will understand that I have
some expertise in what unions represent. have an open mind about what you are
reading, and don't be afraid to ask pertinent questions. good luck on your
decision making. I hope after the final vote is tallied we can all still remain
friends.
Dick | 2:21 p.m. Sept. 25, 2007
Craig, you say the government should provide for the education of children.
And, that parents should have a "meaningful" choice.
Thus, shouldn't government provide the total cost of education whether it be private, homeschool, or private? By giving a partial credit or voucher, it just helps those in the upper middle or upper class to get a "meaningful" choice.
What about the kid whose family makes 20K a year. Should his parents have a "meaningful" choice in his education? The partial voucher still won't allow his parents to send him to the best private school in the area.
So, does "meaningful" choice only apply to those that make your income and above or should it extend to the bottom tier of incomes also?
Thus, shouldn't government provide the total cost of education whether it be private, homeschool, or private? By giving a partial credit or voucher, it just helps those in the upper middle or upper class to get a "meaningful" choice.
What about the kid whose family makes 20K a year. Should his parents have a "meaningful" choice in his education? The partial voucher still won't allow his parents to send him to the best private school in the area.
So, does "meaningful" choice only apply to those that make your income and above or should it extend to the bottom tier of incomes also?
FreeCapitalist | 2:21 p.m. Sept. 25, 2007
It is a simple economic principle that competition brings better products- when
competition is introduced into the education system, the product improves. Look
at the American university system- it's one of the best in the world
entirely because of competition, and because the state sponsors (through Pell
grants and other means) the CONSUMER not the PRODUCER.
As far as whether or not teachers will be "licensed" in private schools, big whoop- the whole premise is that I can CHOOSE which school to send my kid to, so if the teachers at a private institution aren't up to my standards, I can CHOOSE to send them elsewhere. The only people that should be afraid of the voucher bill are teachers that have lost their passion to teach, those that will be (and should be) priced out of the market. And that is really what the NEA and others are fighting for- their pensions. NOT our children!
As far as whether or not teachers will be "licensed" in private schools, big whoop- the whole premise is that I can CHOOSE which school to send my kid to, so if the teachers at a private institution aren't up to my standards, I can CHOOSE to send them elsewhere. The only people that should be afraid of the voucher bill are teachers that have lost their passion to teach, those that will be (and should be) priced out of the market. And that is really what the NEA and others are fighting for- their pensions. NOT our children!
Jon | 2:21 p.m. Sept. 25, 2007
I wish the vouchers would be offered for home schoolers. Home schooling is just
like private schooling and should be allowed to be covered under voucher. It
sure would be nice to direct money into my home to teach my children instead of
paying it out to the state for a system I no longer believe in. Heck I
can't even write off any expenses incurred by home schooling, how fair is
that.
The public school system has failed, and is continuing to fail the children of the country. It's turned into state(federally) funded day care. That is dumbing down America. They (the government) keeps the saying "Please think of the children" alive and well but fails in actually doing anything about it. No child left behind is a sham and being perpetuated by Bush's little brother Niel in his no bid contracts for educational tools. Maybe vouchers are just thing to wake up the populace into doing something about the sad state of public schools.
The public school system has failed, and is continuing to fail the children of the country. It's turned into state(federally) funded day care. That is dumbing down America. They (the government) keeps the saying "Please think of the children" alive and well but fails in actually doing anything about it. No child left behind is a sham and being perpetuated by Bush's little brother Niel in his no bid contracts for educational tools. Maybe vouchers are just thing to wake up the populace into doing something about the sad state of public schools.
Just say NO | 2:31 p.m. Sept. 25, 2007
To Vouchers
Doug | 2:46 p.m. Sept. 25, 2007
My biggest issue is the one that seems to be passed over most often. I live in
a low income area. Many of my neighbors would like "Choice in
Education". The problem is that even with the tax credit they would not be
able to afford a private school. I do not like elitism. Many times the only
difference between the 'haves' and the 'have nots' is
opportunity and this bill does not adequately address this issue.
I appreciate Mike's comments. What would public school's test scores look like if they could pick and choose their students.
One extreme view. Most Utahn's that I have talked to seem to like vouchers because they let religion (both Mormon and Catholic)back in to the curriculum. I am not against that (to a certain extent). However, how will you feel when your money finances a 'Zionist', skin head, hate mongering school? (BTW 'Zionist' does not refer to Mormons, but to groups in Southern Utah and Northern Idaho that espouse the superiority of the Aryan race.) I know this is an extreme view, but I would like to know if this issue has been adressed.
I appreciate Mike's comments. What would public school's test scores look like if they could pick and choose their students.
One extreme view. Most Utahn's that I have talked to seem to like vouchers because they let religion (both Mormon and Catholic)back in to the curriculum. I am not against that (to a certain extent). However, how will you feel when your money finances a 'Zionist', skin head, hate mongering school? (BTW 'Zionist' does not refer to Mormons, but to groups in Southern Utah and Northern Idaho that espouse the superiority of the Aryan race.) I know this is an extreme view, but I would like to know if this issue has been adressed.
Union Faillure | 2:52 p.m. Sept. 25, 2007
Its very true that the union has caused the students to be less imporant than
the teachers.While helping the teachers to get more money.It seems to have made
the student scores on the imporant subjects decline.I am not sure why all you
have to go back to that time and you will see a difference.Sorry I dont have the
stats now but have seen them in the past
re:-Free Capitalist | 3:14 p.m. Sept. 25, 2007
You have the right to CHOOSE!!! Send your kids to a private school!!! Stand up
and CHOOSE with your pocketbook!!! Don't expect me to pay for what you
CHOOSE.
Schools and teachers have no "CHOICE" in the matter. They MUST educate everyone who walks through that door. That is why we require them to have certificates. If your child comes into their classroom with any type of learning problem, the teacher cannot CHOOSE to remove your child like at a private school. If your child is in high school and cannot use the restroom by themself, the teachers and the school cannot CHOOSE not to educate them like a private school. Instead of complaining and crying foul, call your students teacher tomorrow and leave a message thanking them for CHOOSING to care enough to leave behind the money and CHOOSING to make a difference in the life of a child that others would CHOOSE not to have in "their private" classroom.
Remember, someone CHOSE to take the time to teach you.
Schools and teachers have no "CHOICE" in the matter. They MUST educate everyone who walks through that door. That is why we require them to have certificates. If your child comes into their classroom with any type of learning problem, the teacher cannot CHOOSE to remove your child like at a private school. If your child is in high school and cannot use the restroom by themself, the teachers and the school cannot CHOOSE not to educate them like a private school. Instead of complaining and crying foul, call your students teacher tomorrow and leave a message thanking them for CHOOSING to care enough to leave behind the money and CHOOSING to make a difference in the life of a child that others would CHOOSE not to have in "their private" classroom.
Remember, someone CHOSE to take the time to teach you.
Socialism | 4:15 p.m. Sept. 25, 2007
Pure and simple. Government subsidies of private enterprises is socialism. If
you like subsidies and government interference in private schools, vote for
vouchers. Every state that has implemented vouchers has also gradually
increased their accountability standards due to abuses. Every state that has
enacted vouchers all started like Utah with very little accountability, but
ended with a different animal. Look at Minnesota as an example. Independent
studies have shown the Minnesota Private School system to be no better than the
public, yet public dollars are finding their way just a few individuals pockets.
There is a big pot of education money that private enterprise is salivating
over. All vouchers are is a way for private school investors to funnel tax
dollars to their own pockets. Is it possible that some of the legislators
pushing this agenda will personally profit? At least with public schools, the
public owns the buildings, land, and equipment. You own nothing with vouchers.
Again, government subsidy money is socialism. Sadly, some of our Republican
leaders have found a way to create a socialist program in the name of
capitalism.
Friend Of Education | 4:27 p.m. Sept. 25, 2007
I believe that one way to fix our public schools is for parents to actually be a
parent and play a part in their childs education. There are some very poor
teachers out there and we need to get rid of them, but there are also some
phenomenal teachers out there that dedicate their lives to our kids. I think
that if parents would help those teachers, and demand more from those poor
teachers, that would be a good start.
Craig | 4:51 p.m. Sept. 25, 2007
Home-schoolers and private schoolers would be fine not asking for money, if
government schoolers would do the same in return. Will you do that?
I'd love to see government schools send bills to parents for the cost of their childrens education. Districts might get more parental involvement if they did! Education budgets should pay for all kids or no kids, not some kids based on the source of their education.
As for the praise to caring teachers who have made a difference in the lives of children, they also exist in private and home-schools, and would continue to exist in a free-choice educational renaissance.
As for taking children all children with special needs, their needs would be met in a free system as well. Many of the most ardent voucher supporters have kids with special needs who want non-government al school options.
There is no reason that anybody should be afraid of more educational options. The UEA sounds like candlemakers afraid of the light bulb. Society has outgrown the need for monopolized government schools and it's time they gave in to change and progress. This bill is not perfect, but it's a start.
I'd love to see government schools send bills to parents for the cost of their childrens education. Districts might get more parental involvement if they did! Education budgets should pay for all kids or no kids, not some kids based on the source of their education.
As for the praise to caring teachers who have made a difference in the lives of children, they also exist in private and home-schools, and would continue to exist in a free-choice educational renaissance.
As for taking children all children with special needs, their needs would be met in a free system as well. Many of the most ardent voucher supporters have kids with special needs who want non-government al school options.
There is no reason that anybody should be afraid of more educational options. The UEA sounds like candlemakers afraid of the light bulb. Society has outgrown the need for monopolized government schools and it's time they gave in to change and progress. This bill is not perfect, but it's a start.
Teacher | 5:14 p.m. Sept. 25, 2007
I see a problem with some of the comments above. What is a good teacher?
I've had parents who think the sun shines out of me, and I'm sure,
some who have not been too impressed. It is so subjective that it is truly
something that is different for every individual. I work very hard, and do my
best. I love and like all of my students. Every teacher has their own teaching
style. Each child has their own learning style. I find that most of my
children who don't succeed come from dysfunctional homes. I had a parent
tell me that "He didn't believe in computers." He hates his
ex-wife so much that he refuses to allows his son to get help with emotional
problems. He says "Nothing is wrong." Believe me, after 23 years of
teaching, something is very wrong with this child. He needs love and support.
As for the evil UEA. If they hadn't helped me, I would have had to stop teaching. I have Multiple Sclerosis and must have an air conditioned room or I become extremely sick. They made sure the district obeyed the law and accommodated me.
As for the evil UEA. If they hadn't helped me, I would have had to stop teaching. I have Multiple Sclerosis and must have an air conditioned room or I become extremely sick. They made sure the district obeyed the law and accommodated me.
Teacher Again! | 5:23 p.m. Sept. 25, 2007
The reason math and science teachers were not given extra money was because of
the rift that could occur in implying that math and science teachers are more
valuable than teachers in different areas. I am an elementary school teacher
with a Level 3 Math Endorsement. I could teach Junior High math. I would feel
very uncomfortable making more money than my colleagues.
Also, why shouldn't I get a raise. Am I unworthy? In the business world, most people with seniority get bigger raises than those with less seniority. I've worked long and hard to get where I am. A few years ago, the newer teachers were given an increase that those of us who had more seniority were denied. I agreed with this. A new teacher is appalling under paid. I started at $15,000 a year. I wouldn't have stayed in the profession if I hadn't been given incentive. If I've made a spelling or grammar mistake, please forgive me. My M.S. tires me out by the end of the day. I use all of my strength to teach my beloved students whom I love and care for from the bottom of my heart.
Also, why shouldn't I get a raise. Am I unworthy? In the business world, most people with seniority get bigger raises than those with less seniority. I've worked long and hard to get where I am. A few years ago, the newer teachers were given an increase that those of us who had more seniority were denied. I agreed with this. A new teacher is appalling under paid. I started at $15,000 a year. I wouldn't have stayed in the profession if I hadn't been given incentive. If I've made a spelling or grammar mistake, please forgive me. My M.S. tires me out by the end of the day. I use all of my strength to teach my beloved students whom I love and care for from the bottom of my heart.
Random | 5:36 p.m. Sept. 25, 2007
Did anyone else read the Voter Information Pamphlet distributed in newspapers
over the weekend?
Under the heading "Impartial Analysis" it says vouchers will cost "$71 million during the Program's 13th year, after all private school students in Utah have become eligible..."
And schools will save "$11-28 million during the Program's 13th year..."
So, once the voucher program is up and running, net cost is $43-60 million per year! How is this a cost savings? PLEASE read the information. Become informed. The current voucher proposal is NOT what it's touted to be by some legislators.
Under the heading "Impartial Analysis" it says vouchers will cost "$71 million during the Program's 13th year, after all private school students in Utah have become eligible..."
And schools will save "$11-28 million during the Program's 13th year..."
So, once the voucher program is up and running, net cost is $43-60 million per year! How is this a cost savings? PLEASE read the information. Become informed. The current voucher proposal is NOT what it's touted to be by some legislators.
DJ | 5:39 p.m. Sept. 25, 2007
The problem I'm seeing with many comments is public eduation has been
termed a "product" in a "free-market" system. The original
purpose of public education was to create an educated populace--providing for
the poor and challenged in our society an equal opportunity for an education.
When we look at education as a "product" that can be changed through
competition, then what we are saying is that those providing the
"product" can compete in a free market system. Public education takes
ALL children. Not all children cost the same to education. Special education,
severe-diabled, English language learners all cost more to educate than your
average or above average student. When we talk about an average of $6500 per
student, it's obvious that there are those who cost $2500 and those who
cost $10,000. Which ones leave for private schools? Private schools have the
ability to "choose" their "raw material". That is NOT a
level playing field.
As a society we pay taxes sometimes for the good of the whole. Your share of taxes is not YOURS to use as you see fit.
By the way, as shown in Milwaukee and Cleveland, not all parents make good "choices."
As a society we pay taxes sometimes for the good of the whole. Your share of taxes is not YOURS to use as you see fit.
By the way, as shown in Milwaukee and Cleveland, not all parents make good "choices."
Concerned Citizen | 5:42 p.m. Sept. 25, 2007
Mr. Bernick, why don't you just stamp the following across your forehead,
"I hate Republican legislators, I hate Parents for Choice in Education, and
I hate vouchers!" Your bias is sickening and your agenda is transparent.
You apparently did not become a journalist to inform and educate your readers on
the facts. You are drunk with your imaginary power. I don't place a
single ounce of merit in anything you say. You taint the credibility of the
Deseret News. If I want the truth and a fair and balanced story, I never turn
to Bob Bernick. I only read your column to see what the latest flavor of
koolaid you're serving up happens to be.
Craig | 5:49 p.m. Sept. 25, 2007
If you find people who all they want is a bill that "isn't perfect,
but it's a start", then you all will probably get what you deserve.
(Boy, you almost sold me with that endorsement). I don't see it as a
cornerstone for an "educational renaissance". Check out the Bill and
Melinda Gates Foundation, read some Willard Dagget, Alfie Kohn and other experts
in educational reform and let's get something going that helps kids in the
classrooms and doesn't dump more government $$$ into corporate America and
their "educational consultants". You sound like a lightbulb maker
afraid of the sunshine. (I know, it sounds as stupid as your metaphor).
Steve Jarvis | 6:06 p.m. Sept. 25, 2007
Craig,
What the UEA fears is the undermining of children and their educational needs. [I]Your bosses paying for you to post all day on these boards[/I] want our tax money to go into their private ventures without the least thought of accountability. When parents pull their child and put them into Private, those same parents may forget to check up on their child's progress. They may fall behind and that child is put into crises.
While I won't ever belong to the UEA, I see the harm this sort of vouchers will bring to our children. Many businesses will spring up to funnel money and babysit kids, and will not have accountability when the child cannot function due to this educational neglect. The Milwaukee Voucher disaster should not be replicated in Utah. The Legislature failed to safeguard the children without placing accountability into the law.
What the UEA fears is the undermining of children and their educational needs. [I]Your bosses paying for you to post all day on these boards[/I] want our tax money to go into their private ventures without the least thought of accountability. When parents pull their child and put them into Private, those same parents may forget to check up on their child's progress. They may fall behind and that child is put into crises.
While I won't ever belong to the UEA, I see the harm this sort of vouchers will bring to our children. Many businesses will spring up to funnel money and babysit kids, and will not have accountability when the child cannot function due to this educational neglect. The Milwaukee Voucher disaster should not be replicated in Utah. The Legislature failed to safeguard the children without placing accountability into the law.
Choice | 6:10 p.m. Sept. 25, 2007
I know people who make good money who CHOOSE to drive a Lexus and others who
aren't doing as well that CHOOSE not to own a car.
Public education is about educating the public. People make good CHOICES, and poor CHOICES. People who want the Lexus of education are free to pay for it.
Public education is about educating the public. People make good CHOICES, and poor CHOICES. People who want the Lexus of education are free to pay for it.
Steve Jarvis | 6:16 p.m. Sept. 25, 2007
One thing that gets my Ire up by all the paid posters on here is that they use
so much misinformation. M for instance claims she makes too much to get a
voucher. That is a dead-on indictment that she is a paid out-of-state board
poster. I think most citizens are quite tired of the debate and just want to
vote it off the media one way or another by now. We are educated on at least
the basics of the bill and the amended one.
I have been hitting heads for months with "real" Utahns over this issue. They kept to facts, used the same core of 'valid' arguments and I the counters, and provided a lively debate. I am not seeing that with a great deal of these posts. Where are the real Utah Voucher Supporters?? Bring back the real ones who know the facts about Utah!!!
I have been hitting heads for months with "real" Utahns over this issue. They kept to facts, used the same core of 'valid' arguments and I the counters, and provided a lively debate. I am not seeing that with a great deal of these posts. Where are the real Utah Voucher Supporters?? Bring back the real ones who know the facts about Utah!!!
Steve Jarvis | 6:19 p.m. Sept. 25, 2007
Since I don't have TV watching time (and those owls moved the antennae
making PBS my exclusive 'choice'), can anyone give me a rough estimate
of how many commercials during an hour of viewing time are Pro and how many Anti
Voucher ones are on? I am curious because of all the hype that the
'NEA' and its minions are pumping the most money into the campaign.
Steve Jarvis | 6:37 p.m. Sept. 25, 2007
We all receive the benefit from our taxes in Public Education whether we have
children or not, whether those children are enrolled or not. The benefit is
having a literate society able to function and grow economically.
Moving away from Public Education towards a Private system should enforce a stronger class system than what presently exists (akin to segregation). Those wealthy will be able to afford the highest level of education, and those that are the most vulnerable will receive the least. This is the competition that vouchers will create, setting a great divide between the Upper, Middle and Poor of our society not only in financial wealth but the quality of education.
At least with Public Education, all have an equal right/access. Private Schools have barriers. For starters they have entrance exams at many existing schools. They can take the top scholars and refuse others based on previous academic achievement and/or these test results. The Private Schools--not the parents will get the ultimate say whether a child is admitted. This is the ultimate irony in the argument that Vouchers are about the right for Parents Choice. Vouchers give the choice to the Private Schools.
Moving away from Public Education towards a Private system should enforce a stronger class system than what presently exists (akin to segregation). Those wealthy will be able to afford the highest level of education, and those that are the most vulnerable will receive the least. This is the competition that vouchers will create, setting a great divide between the Upper, Middle and Poor of our society not only in financial wealth but the quality of education.
At least with Public Education, all have an equal right/access. Private Schools have barriers. For starters they have entrance exams at many existing schools. They can take the top scholars and refuse others based on previous academic achievement and/or these test results. The Private Schools--not the parents will get the ultimate say whether a child is admitted. This is the ultimate irony in the argument that Vouchers are about the right for Parents Choice. Vouchers give the choice to the Private Schools.
research | 8:09 p.m. Sept. 25, 2007
Research of Chile's voucher through the eyes of a Stanford economist shows
little, if any, benefit.
Choice? | 8:15 p.m. Sept. 25, 2007
If we are going to send public money to private schools let's introduce
some REAL choices and competition to education.
If private schools can choose their studentbody then shouldn't public schools be able to CHOOSE the same selection methods?
If private schools can choose to have parents sign a waiver and have their student not receive extremely expensive Special Education services shouldn't public schools be able to offer the same CHOICE?
If private schools can choose not to provide costly special services (ESL, bilingual, counseling, lock down, remedial, behavioral, etc.) then why shouldn't the public schools be able to CHOOSE likewise?
If private schools can choose to sidestep NCLB, UPASS, and other unfunded government education mandates then why can't the public schools be able to make a similar CHOICE?
The money would be coming from the same funding source so shouldn't the "choices" for private and public schools be the same?
And as far as the UEA/NEA goes--isn't it a TEACHERS union funded by teacher dues? Does the pilots union look out for anyone except themselves? I don't remember the pilot being very helpful the last time I was bumped from my flight.
If private schools can choose their studentbody then shouldn't public schools be able to CHOOSE the same selection methods?
If private schools can choose to have parents sign a waiver and have their student not receive extremely expensive Special Education services shouldn't public schools be able to offer the same CHOICE?
If private schools can choose not to provide costly special services (ESL, bilingual, counseling, lock down, remedial, behavioral, etc.) then why shouldn't the public schools be able to CHOOSE likewise?
If private schools can choose to sidestep NCLB, UPASS, and other unfunded government education mandates then why can't the public schools be able to make a similar CHOICE?
The money would be coming from the same funding source so shouldn't the "choices" for private and public schools be the same?
And as far as the UEA/NEA goes--isn't it a TEACHERS union funded by teacher dues? Does the pilots union look out for anyone except themselves? I don't remember the pilot being very helpful the last time I was bumped from my flight.
Teacher | 8:30 p.m. Sept. 25, 2007
Choice?:
Parents are allowed in public education to sign a waiver to not have their children receive Special Education services.
Parents are allowed in public education to sign a waiver to not have their children receive Special Education services.
Trapped in Huskerland | 8:43 p.m. Sept. 25, 2007
The education union would do anything to avoid competition with the vouchers.
They fall all over themselves with charters and they predictably do the same
with vouchers. The teachers union, like the auto union, will drive things to
ruin for power, influence and money. Never trust these big unions. They are
not for kids, they are for union first! Vouchers, like charters, will force
teachers and administrators to perform better. While I can't vote for
vouchers, I can only hope that Utahns will see the benefits, vote yes to
vouchers, and take control of your schools. Remember parents, you are not
stupid. Teachers and principals don't know what's best for your kids.
You do.
Educator | 8:48 p.m. Sept. 25, 2007
The difference Teacher is that with the Private School, if that waiver
isn't signed, the student isn't admitted. Waterford as an example
with Special Ed. tests potential children with a learning disability with
trained personnel from the local school district. If the child qualifies for
services that child is released from the school at the best time for student and
school. Waterford simply does not have the staff to service special needs
children while some/most Public schools do. The Private School is not required
by law to offer such services either.
In the Public School, parents often waive special education testing, meaning their child cannot receive assistance beyond what the general student population receives, not waiving services once the child has established a right to it. Parents do this because they often feel a label on their child will either effect themselves or their child negatively. We had two children at the school I worked at two years ago whose children needed testing. The parent withdrew her children when approached with our data that their children needed help. Fortunately, not all parents wish to hide their children and welcome additional assistance.
In the Public School, parents often waive special education testing, meaning their child cannot receive assistance beyond what the general student population receives, not waiving services once the child has established a right to it. Parents do this because they often feel a label on their child will either effect themselves or their child negatively. We had two children at the school I worked at two years ago whose children needed testing. The parent withdrew her children when approached with our data that their children needed help. Fortunately, not all parents wish to hide their children and welcome additional assistance.
Steve Jarvis | 9:05 p.m. Sept. 25, 2007
Huskerland,
Vouchers are fought by parents more so than our local teachers union. They have a very small voice in Utah politics and go largely ignored by politicians and the general populace. This is why I expect a very high turnout in this years' election, Utah voters care a great deal about the education of children in Utah. I expect the issue to go down soundly in most areas of the state as Voucher supporters haven't assuaged concerns nor have given any concrete support of why the program would be needed.
What vouchers is all about is simply MONEY. It isn't about children in this case. Vouchers are too small for the poor and middle class families to take advantage of. The average private school tuition in Utah is over $4,500. The voucher will cover maximum $3,000. The upper-middle and wealthy can and likely will be the vast majority of users.
The developers make money building schools. That is why someone paid you and a few others to take time posting on our board. They stand to generate billions of dollars in construction costs, let alone if any child receives an actual education.
Vouchers are fought by parents more so than our local teachers union. They have a very small voice in Utah politics and go largely ignored by politicians and the general populace. This is why I expect a very high turnout in this years' election, Utah voters care a great deal about the education of children in Utah. I expect the issue to go down soundly in most areas of the state as Voucher supporters haven't assuaged concerns nor have given any concrete support of why the program would be needed.
What vouchers is all about is simply MONEY. It isn't about children in this case. Vouchers are too small for the poor and middle class families to take advantage of. The average private school tuition in Utah is over $4,500. The voucher will cover maximum $3,000. The upper-middle and wealthy can and likely will be the vast majority of users.
The developers make money building schools. That is why someone paid you and a few others to take time posting on our board. They stand to generate billions of dollars in construction costs, let alone if any child receives an actual education.
Steve Jarvis | 9:22 p.m. Sept. 25, 2007
Huskerland,
Competition would not be generated by Vouchers. That just isn't how the system is set up. The Private schools don't compete either. At least not in Utah. We have two mutually exclusive educational systems in the State (some could argue three with Charters), and they aren't readily comparable.
For competition to exist the Private schools would need to have comparable standards and testing to that of Public schools. The Public Schools and Private schools wouldn't be comparable at that point because composition of students would also be vastly different. You don't see a lot of ESL, special education or low income kids in the Private schools, and vouchers will only make any such disparities larger. The systems will never likely compete.
Since Vouchers cannot achieve such an aim how do we bolster Public Education?
1. Recruit and Retain
2. Reduce class size
3. Increase specialized education in Primary grades (Music, Science, Math, Reading, etc.) Have specialists work alongside the primary class educator.
4. Finish setting up the on-line K12 education system
5. FULLY fund the current system
6. No EXCUSES
Competition would not be generated by Vouchers. That just isn't how the system is set up. The Private schools don't compete either. At least not in Utah. We have two mutually exclusive educational systems in the State (some could argue three with Charters), and they aren't readily comparable.
For competition to exist the Private schools would need to have comparable standards and testing to that of Public schools. The Public Schools and Private schools wouldn't be comparable at that point because composition of students would also be vastly different. You don't see a lot of ESL, special education or low income kids in the Private schools, and vouchers will only make any such disparities larger. The systems will never likely compete.
Since Vouchers cannot achieve such an aim how do we bolster Public Education?
1. Recruit and Retain
2. Reduce class size
3. Increase specialized education in Primary grades (Music, Science, Math, Reading, etc.) Have specialists work alongside the primary class educator.
4. Finish setting up the on-line K12 education system
5. FULLY fund the current system
6. No EXCUSES
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Realization #2: Choice already exists.
Realization #3: Vouchers subsidize private agendas. The large number of Catholic schools stand a lot to gain from our tax $$$.
Realization #4: Our schools doing very.
Realization #5: Our schools take all comers. We do not refuse an education to anyone. We keep all the apples, even the ones that keep scores lower.
Realization #6: Our schools and teachers are held to high standards, not required by private.
Realization #7: My vote will go against vouchers.