Deseret News | Both sides making quiet voucher moves

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Both sides making quiet voucher moves

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Rural | 8:23 p.m. Sept. 24, 2007

Yes it is and of course your right the flds folks don't deserve schooling do they and ill bet they pray in school every day now! and i'll bet they don't have to pay extra teachers that speak spanish to the illegals kids do they? GET REAL perplexed public schools have been wanting more and more money for years and quality never goes up, same old tax and flush school system. Lets try somthing else.As far as i can tell teachers union is about the only one fighting this thing dues money well spent so keep up the good work utah teachers and don't forget to flush.

To Rural | 9:14 p.m. Sept. 24, 2007

Of course Public Schools are asking for money. If you consider that more kids enter the system and inflationary costs rise we have been so off the mark on funding the Public system for so many years, it may take another three years of increases akin to last year in order to get to where we once were. The sad state of affairs with Public education has been for a long time one of under-funding. That is why this whole voucher idea is laughable--we aren't funding the current system and now we want to subsidize a different one.

Rural | 10:27 p.m. Sept. 24, 2007

Good money after bad my favorite!!!!!

Comments continue below

taxpayer | 10:35 p.m. Sept. 24, 2007

Rural, I for one don't want our tax dollars to be used to teach the FLDS, LDS, RLDS, or Catholic religions. And, I happen to consider myself a religious person. The public system is not failing in Utah. Get a grip.

To Certificates | 11:31 p.m. Sept. 24, 2007

I can't believe all the trash that I am hearing in this discussion about teachers. I have seen a number of conservative individuals go into the classroom, thinking that they could do a better job. But when they actually did what teachers do, and try to live up to the unreal expectations placed on teachers, they changed their views. Everyone talks about accountability for the public school system - making sure that teachers are doing their jobs, but we are not even considering all sides of the equation in accountability. Students are not widgets produced in a factory. What most people don't think about when they lament about how bad the schools are getting compared to "the good old days" is that we are no longer living in "the good old days". The student's attention is diverted from the classroom to a myriad of other distractions such as cell phones (even in the classroom), computers, and entertainment in general. What about holding parents accountable for students not doing their homework or studying for a test. Make receiving that $1000 child tax credit dependent upon their student getting 90% of their homework assignments done.

John Brown | 1:34 a.m. Sept. 25, 2007

I don't think anybody is saying parents and students have no responsibility. Did anyone say that? I didn't see that anywhere.

What's being said is that there's a very simple way to improve the value we're already receiving.

Let me ask something. I live in a Utah school district where the students can take university courses during High School. The classes count for both college and HS credit. Half of the students graduate with an associates degree a month before they graduate with their HS diploma. These students go on to get their BA's just fine.

Think about that for a second. What that means is that either the first two years of college or the last two years of HS are NON-ESSENTIAL. And if there's that much waste in the last two years I wonder how much waste is in the first 10.

To John Brown | 8:19 a.m. Sept. 25, 2007

No one is saying that parents and students have no responsibility. But no one is talking about parental accountability and many are talking about how bad the schools are. No one is talking about REAL solutions to the "problems" in education because they are not holding everyone accountable that is accountable (especially legislators!). Many, especially the pro-voucher crowd, are talking about taking money away from a public education system, that no matter how much rhetoric about how much money is being poured into the "black hole" of education there is - Public education is underfunded. Until teachers are paid a wage that is competitive with industry, schools will not have a large enough pool of qualified teachers for "competition" (this seems to be a very popular catch phrase in this discussion)to flourish.

What about a gifted student? | 2:13 p.m. Sept. 25, 2007

I was labeled a "Gifted" student from the time I entered public school. That meant that I spent my timing grading other kids papers and tutoring other students. The great leveler that is public school! Coming from a middle income family private school was not an option.

The first time I actually remember learning and feeling educated was when I was accepted into an accelerated program during 5th and 6th grade that was set aside for some of the top test scoring students in the district. In the 6th grade I learned 180 coutries and capitals, diagramming sentences, algrebra, and computers. Unfortunately, when this 2 year program was over I went back to regular classes and learned maybe another year's worth of information in the next 6 years! It was horribly boring.

I would vote for vouchers as I see a potential solution to help students like myself have opportunity to excel and not be held back by others by getting the attention they need.

John Brown | 11:41 p.m. Sept. 25, 2007

Amen, to the gifted student comment.

So the solution is to pay teachers more so you attract better talent? That's the key? There are many implications you make by saying that about the current set of teachers.

If you actually free up the market, then the best teachers will be sought after becasue they produce results. And they WILL be paid more automatically. Parents will say: I want Susize in Mr. X's class. I want Jimmy in Y school because they deliver. And the schoool admins will know that if they don't keep teacher X their enrollments will suffer. The teachers who are excellent will be paid more because they will have more options.

The current system keeps the best teachers from being paid what they're worth. It keeps the innovation low. The BEST system would allow free choice of all public and private schools. And let the teachers sign contracts and shop their talent.

123 | 9:19 p.m. Sept. 28, 2007

I appreciate reading all these comments. Ultimately the pro-voucher group has helped me decide which way to vote. I'm voting against vouchers.

Parent Choice? It's their choice but our money. Vouchers don't even begin to cover the cost of private school tuition. You still have to be rich to afford it even with vouchers.

More money for public schools? In twelve years all of the students in private school will be subsidized under this bill. Right now we pay nothing. We will be paying for millionaires to send their kids to private schools we can't send our kids to.

This isn't a Parent Choice Bill. Its a tax subsidy for the wealthy.

Some Choice.

Good one | 9:26 p.m. Sept. 28, 2007

The quality of our education have steadly declined since the unions were allowed in our schools I think during the Kennedy administration.Test scores have dropped.It seems the emphatus has been more on our teachers rather than the Students.I know God has completly disappeared from our socialist schools.I believe without competition the schools will never improve.The Teachers and there familys have led the fight to get rid of vouchers encouraged by there unions who doesnt believe in free enterprise.

vouch! | 9:28 p.m. Sept. 28, 2007

These "vouchers" are unconstitutional. They would take my money (at threat of imprisonment if I try not to pay) and give it to private sectarian schools. That's forcing me to endorse religious instruction and it's as clear a violation of both the Utah State and U.S. Constitutions as you're likely to ever see.

People who want to send their kids to private religious schools are welcome to do so - but not with public taxes.

gone fishin | 9:34 p.m. Sept. 28, 2007

I am disappointed that some of our state legislators think they have the power and authority to change our laws to suit themselves with the belief that they know what is best for all of us. Our Republican form of government is based on the belief that individuals have the right, ability, and responsibility to think for themselves and make right decisions. I am almost persuaded to become a democrat! (I believe they often listen to the people.) I am very disappointed in the representative from my area and will definitiely vote against him in the next election. Power begets power. It's time to vote down these powerful Republican leaders!

vhr | 9:35 p.m. Sept. 28, 2007

My wife and I have no children. I am happy to have money go towards vouchers, even if it means a little more taxes. As far as the accountability issue, point me to a specific, non-biased source that supports the notion that a "certified" teacher does a better job that a non-certified one, or that private education centers do not use certified teachers. In a free market, would I not send my children to a school where all teachers are certified if it was proven to me they did a better job?

Anonymous | 9:37 p.m. Sept. 28, 2007

un | 9:41 p.m. Sept. 28, 2007

You need to make sure people know that voting for is voting for vouchers. I know it is backwards. I didn't want the referendum to have enough signatures. I want the voucher bills to stay, but I need to vote for the referendum because the way it is worded, voting for keeps the current bills. I guess the writer of this didn't read the voters guide or listen to the ads.

un | 9:43 p.m. Sept. 28, 2007

Amused | 9:49 p.m. Sept. 28, 2007

Good One,

Since when has the teacher been the focus in schools? The focus has been on the student and testing not on teachers.

The fight against vouchers was spearheaded by the PTA, the parent organization that exists in most Utah schools. Perhaps they have something in your state (maybe even the PTA)?

Vouchers are opposed by parents and teachers because the belief that they will harm children's education. When you allow Private enterprise to make a buck off the government with children involved, there must be accountability to protect the kids. This voucher bill had only one shred of protection--mandating a background check at Private schools which had to be added as a later amendment. Unscrupulous people are going to make a quick buck, and children are going to suffer.

Anonymous | 11:04 a.m. Sept. 29, 2007

The 'have to be a good Mormon and Republican' comes from this article and the Sutherland report on vouchers. I don't buy into either myself. I can be a good Mormon, Democrat, Catholic, Republican or whatever and still object to vouchers.

yup | 11:05 a.m. Sept. 29, 2007

Vouchers will not reduce class sizes. Class sizes are set according to a formula. If too many students leave a school, then a teacher will be cut as well. In some cases, class sizes will actually go UP because of vouchers.

Anonymous | 11:32 a.m. Sept. 29, 2007

It's nice to be thousands of miles away now where some bigot isn't always dragging the LDS church into every issue at hand.

Anonymous | 11:57 a.m. Sept. 29, 2007

Have the Parents for Choice and Greg Curtis forgotten the Dan Jones Poll that showed 78% of the people of Utah did NOT want school vouchers. They voted against "the will of the people" the first time and seem determined to spend milions of dollars so they can do it again. We used to work together to educate our youth. Now it appears our legislature is determined to pass a bill that reinforces "education by the rich for the rich".

Carol B | 11:58 a.m. Sept. 29, 2007

WHO ever said the Republican efforts to coerce the very lobbyists who NEED their votes on various issues to "assist" them in the pro-voucher effort was QUIET?!? Utah Public Employees/Officers Ethics Act that forbids public officials from using their positions for gain?

Yep! | 11:58 a.m. Sept. 29, 2007

Many of the other private school tuition rates are much, much lower. My kids go to private school and the tuition rate per child is not too much more than that $3K you mentioned. We have poor families attending the school that are just barely able to do so. They sacrifice to be there. We have even had kids pay their own way. Some families leave because they can't afford a $100 per year tuition increase. The voucher credit would significantly help many poor families at many private schools in the state.

Pay Up | 11:58 a.m. Sept. 29, 2007

I had some thoughts. Teachers don't always get a fair shake. They put up with some really horrible kids. They have some pretty mean parents to deal with. I do feel for you. It seems though when ever change is in the wind, everyone in the establishment freaks out. Listen, for all we know, it is the best thing that ever happened to your industry. Who knows, even if public needs less teachers, then you find a job that doesn't involve bad kids, bad parents, politics, and the rest. It might be refreshing. We don't need to spend more money, we need to spend it better. And nobody spends it as wisely as the ones who earn it.

Anonymous | 1:17 p.m. Sept. 29, 2007

We want vouchers. We want great public schools. We want great students and teachers. We want..

The public does want vouchers. The NEA, UEA, school boards, and anyone that listens to them don't want vouchers. Can you say monopoly and power?

Go read the voter info pamplet - the fair review. It will be a good thing, if not for the education system, just because the UEA doesn't want it.

Let's make schools better. Lets get rid of the UEA and the NEA.

Anonymous | 1:18 p.m. Sept. 29, 2007

Vouchers mainly allow kids who were already slated to go to private school to go there cheaper... This equates mainly to subsidized private schools. Can you hear the "giant sucking sound" from the state budget as private schools sprout up around the state?

Public funds should be used on public education, period. If you can't afford to send your kids to private school, but want to afford it, work 3 jobs, borrow the money, live in a trailer instead of a house, but don't hold out your hand asking others to help pay.

In the meantime, work on making public school education better.

arc | 1:25 p.m. Sept. 29, 2007

I don't want to get rid of the teachers - just the union. It has done more harm than good. Any time we want to improve the schools the UEA and NEA block it.

Most teachers only sign up for the liability insurance.

Yes someone said something stupid and the anti-vouchers are looking for blood pounced on it.

pro | 1:27 p.m. Sept. 29, 2007

The pro-voucher and anti-voucher sides both come up with some very bogus claims to support their side. I'm not sure which side is worse.

While I think there are some legitimate reasons to oppose vouchers, I think they provide are more benefits than not so I will be supporting them.

help out 88 | 1:39 p.m. Sept. 29, 2007

This overwhelming attitude from the voucher proponents that "we should be able to choose how OUR tax money is spent is ludicrous!

Anonymous | 1:41 p.m. Sept. 29, 2007

I believe that one way to fix our public schools is for parents to actually be a parent and play a part in their childs education. There are some very poor teachers out there and we need to get rid of them, but there are also some phenomenal teachers out there that dedicate their lives to our kids. I think that if parents would help those teachers, and demand more from those poor teachers, that would be a good start.

Randy Swearengin | 9:30 a.m. Nov. 9, 2007

The Radical Teachers Unions are the most corrosive organizations in America today.

They want more money for less work and they want lifetime employment for all but a few convicted pedophiles. (Yes, it almost takes a sexual pedophile conviction to terminate a radical,unionized and tenured public school teacher)! The Radical Teachers Unions that are the Foxes running the school systems....are not about kids.

They are about protecting Radical Unionized School Teachers. It is an American Disgrace! And, the results are very clear. Public Education, just like public housing costs more and the reslults are miserable.

All parents of school aged children and all Americans need to shut off funding for the bloated, disfunctional and Radical American Public School System.

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