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Both sides making quiet voucher moves
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Teacher | 1:19 p.m. Sept. 23, 2007
It is sad that some do not treat teachers like trained professionals. Would the
same be true of a doctor, electrician or lawyer? Perhaps this is why fewer and
being directed into the field, not the lower salaries.
The rules governing certification and recertification are present to ensure quality education for the students. Teaching requires technical training from a four-year University or college program to begin with, and continual training thereafter.
I for one insist that a Private school teacher has at least the minimal level of professional training that a Public school educator has. I also insist that criminal background checks be performed on those working with children. At least Vouchers required the background check, but leaving professional accreditation off is unacceptable. If I am to vote for Vouchers I expect accountability for them. These Vouchers seem to miss the basic litmus test, and therefore will not be getting my vote.
The rules governing certification and recertification are present to ensure quality education for the students. Teaching requires technical training from a four-year University or college program to begin with, and continual training thereafter.
I for one insist that a Private school teacher has at least the minimal level of professional training that a Public school educator has. I also insist that criminal background checks be performed on those working with children. At least Vouchers required the background check, but leaving professional accreditation off is unacceptable. If I am to vote for Vouchers I expect accountability for them. These Vouchers seem to miss the basic litmus test, and therefore will not be getting my vote.
oldy but goody | 2:47 p.m. Sept. 23, 2007
So many keep talking about how vouchers for private schools will give public
schools much needed competition. The public schools are NOT in competition with
private schools. How can they be? Private schools do not have to meet the same
criteria as public schools. They are not bound by NCLB, or AYP, etc. Taking
more money from public schools is not going to make them better...
Comments continue below
John Brown | 2:52 p.m. Sept. 23, 2007
When an organization fails to meet the needs of my kids, then I want the option
to take them to another organization that can.
When we lived in Ohio our two oldest girls were put in a public school that was awful. The second was in kindergarten. The curriculum of the kindergarten was coloring pictures. But my daughter could read. We tried working with the teacher. We tried working with the school. After a number of months with no action it became clear that my daughter would waste a year of her life trying to "work inside the system."
We were not rich and could not afford to take her to a school that would help her. So my wife homeschooled. It was a great experience for all. But I would have loved to have had the choice to take my daughter to a school that would work!!
Great teachers and administrators will ALWAYS be in demand. They should embrace vouchers.
When we lived in Ohio our two oldest girls were put in a public school that was awful. The second was in kindergarten. The curriculum of the kindergarten was coloring pictures. But my daughter could read. We tried working with the teacher. We tried working with the school. After a number of months with no action it became clear that my daughter would waste a year of her life trying to "work inside the system."
We were not rich and could not afford to take her to a school that would help her. So my wife homeschooled. It was a great experience for all. But I would have loved to have had the choice to take my daughter to a school that would work!!
Great teachers and administrators will ALWAYS be in demand. They should embrace vouchers.
evensteven | 2:58 p.m. Sept. 23, 2007
Can someone please specify what "accountability" standard they would
like the private schools to be held to? I hear that word thrown around alot but
what does it really mean? Contrast that with the "accountability"
standard public schools allow themselves to be held to. NCLB doesn't
count, its a federal mandate.
I wish someone would also address how vouchers would financially harm the public school system. My research indicates it would be a net win for most districts, in both the short and long terms. And especially so for growing districts.
Without some facts in the discussion, we are all just blowing hot air.
I wish someone would also address how vouchers would financially harm the public school system. My research indicates it would be a net win for most districts, in both the short and long terms. And especially so for growing districts.
Without some facts in the discussion, we are all just blowing hot air.
John Brown | 3:01 p.m. Sept. 23, 2007
Credentials, certification, and education mean nothing because they do not test
or demonstrate success in teaching. The demonstrate success in learning. Two
very different things.
What matters is what a teacher can do in the classroom and the results he or she is able to consistently produce.
Look at current public education vs homeschooling statistics. The students of parents without any background in education consistently outperform public schools on national tests.
The key is results, NOT certifications. Certification and other continuing ed programs are means to an end. Not the end themselves. The end is the measured results.
Results, results, results. Show me results (what the results should be is another question) and I don't care what your educational background is.
What matters is what a teacher can do in the classroom and the results he or she is able to consistently produce.
Look at current public education vs homeschooling statistics. The students of parents without any background in education consistently outperform public schools on national tests.
The key is results, NOT certifications. Certification and other continuing ed programs are means to an end. Not the end themselves. The end is the measured results.
Results, results, results. Show me results (what the results should be is another question) and I don't care what your educational background is.
John Brown | 3:14 p.m. Sept. 23, 2007
Someone up the thread said that vouchers will only give money to the rich and
diminish the great equalizer (the public schools).
The argument makes no sense.
If the rich are already taking their kids elsewhere, then we already in a state of un-equal education. Vouchers don't affect it. Besides, the vouchers are structured to provide the most money to poorer families.
For someone in my case, making the median income, vouchers will make it possible for me to go shopping for the best service provider.
When people compete they have incredible incentives to cut costs and improve quality. They innovate. We'll have better teachers, better run schools, better results.
Why is education a special case? In every other service sector in the nation we get better quality, value, and price when folks know that if they don't perform they lose their customers.
The argument makes no sense.
If the rich are already taking their kids elsewhere, then we already in a state of un-equal education. Vouchers don't affect it. Besides, the vouchers are structured to provide the most money to poorer families.
For someone in my case, making the median income, vouchers will make it possible for me to go shopping for the best service provider.
When people compete they have incredible incentives to cut costs and improve quality. They innovate. We'll have better teachers, better run schools, better results.
Why is education a special case? In every other service sector in the nation we get better quality, value, and price when folks know that if they don't perform they lose their customers.
gary | 3:15 p.m. Sept. 23, 2007
Does it seem that somewhere there are some people involved with the pro voucher
side that are hoping to make a lot of money off of this whole deal? It would
help if you could follow the money a little more closely.
John Brown | 3:34 p.m. Sept. 23, 2007
What if they DO make a lot of money? Who cares as long as the service levels
improve. In fact, they should be paid more if they deliver better service.
And the current teachers who deliver great service should go where they can be paid more. As demand rises for this so will their pay. And they deserve it.
And the current teachers who deliver great service should go where they can be paid more. As demand rises for this so will their pay. And they deserve it.
Chuck | 3:53 p.m. Sept. 23, 2007
Whether the service WILL improve with vouchers is the big question. And despite
what the voucher people are saying that it's best for kids, they are hiding
a lot. That makes me VERY suspicious.
RJMOM | 3:55 p.m. Sept. 23, 2007
The truth about vouchers:
Increases Parental Choice by giving Parents more options to find the best school for their child when the public school isn�t working for them.
Reduces public school class size by decreasing enrollment growth.
Increases per Student Spending in Public Schools (without raising taxes): The average voucher is under $2,000. Next year, Utah public schools will spend over $7,500 per student. Each time a student leaves a public school with a voucher, the state saves thousands of dollars. A 2004 USU study found that this could save Utah over $1 BILLION in 13 years.
Makes schools more accountable because they�ll have to answer to PARENTS & not just bureaucrats.
As a parent whose children have not always fit into the public education system, my options are 1)homeschool 2)allow my kids to continue failing in the public school system because the teachers aren't able to give them the time they need with their overcrowded classes. 3)Vote for the vouchers!
Increases Parental Choice by giving Parents more options to find the best school for their child when the public school isn�t working for them.
Reduces public school class size by decreasing enrollment growth.
Increases per Student Spending in Public Schools (without raising taxes): The average voucher is under $2,000. Next year, Utah public schools will spend over $7,500 per student. Each time a student leaves a public school with a voucher, the state saves thousands of dollars. A 2004 USU study found that this could save Utah over $1 BILLION in 13 years.
Makes schools more accountable because they�ll have to answer to PARENTS & not just bureaucrats.
As a parent whose children have not always fit into the public education system, my options are 1)homeschool 2)allow my kids to continue failing in the public school system because the teachers aren't able to give them the time they need with their overcrowded classes. 3)Vote for the vouchers!
SRD | 4:43 p.m. Sept. 23, 2007
I think we should find out what lobbists are donatating money for the
legislature to "educate" the voters. It would be very interesting to
see what bills or tax "incintives" were given to gain this support.
Both sides need to disclose who supports their cause. These groups need to be "transparent" and quite frankly we as voters have the right to know, loopholes or no loopholes. What are they afraid of.
I also believe that there should be some public debates where both sides are allowed to present there sides so tha we can compare and contrast the two sides.
If the schools are as bad as they say, whose fault is it? The Republicans, the very people who are complaining about the schools have been in charge for the last 20+ years. If the schools are not up to par, I submit that it is the Republicans fault.
Both sides need to disclose who supports their cause. These groups need to be "transparent" and quite frankly we as voters have the right to know, loopholes or no loopholes. What are they afraid of.
I also believe that there should be some public debates where both sides are allowed to present there sides so tha we can compare and contrast the two sides.
If the schools are as bad as they say, whose fault is it? The Republicans, the very people who are complaining about the schools have been in charge for the last 20+ years. If the schools are not up to par, I submit that it is the Republicans fault.
SRD | 4:44 p.m. Sept. 23, 2007
I think we should find out what lobbists are donatating money for the
legislature to "educate" the voters. It would be very interesting to
see what bills or tax "incintives" were given to gain this support.
Both sides need to disclose who supports their cause. These groups need to be "transparent" and quite frankly we as voters have the right to know, loopholes or no loopholes. What are they afraid of.
I also believe that there should be some public debates where both sides are allowed to present there sides so tha we can compare and contrast the two sides.
If the schools are as bad as they say, whose fault is it? The Republicans, the very people who are complaining about the schools have been in charge for the last 20+ years. If the schools are not up to par, I submit that it is the Republicans fault.
Both sides need to disclose who supports their cause. These groups need to be "transparent" and quite frankly we as voters have the right to know, loopholes or no loopholes. What are they afraid of.
I also believe that there should be some public debates where both sides are allowed to present there sides so tha we can compare and contrast the two sides.
If the schools are as bad as they say, whose fault is it? The Republicans, the very people who are complaining about the schools have been in charge for the last 20+ years. If the schools are not up to par, I submit that it is the Republicans fault.
Lorraine | 4:52 p.m. Sept. 23, 2007
Corky B. Poppenhafer
I also looked at the rates of other private schools, and yes, they were much less expensive, but still a burden as you put it. Why should some rich kids be enabled to attend Waterford? If the money was only going to the poor who were in schools that were not up to par, it would be different. One school in my area is about $5,000. It is also a religious school. I object to my tax money going to subsidize a religious institution. One other thing you don't know as you are probably not a teacher. I won't work for a private or even charter school. The pay is much less, the benefits are lacking. All teachers that I know who teach at a private school want to work for my school district. I have one kid who has fetal alcohol syndrome, two with ADHA, three with emotional problems. Others with home lives that are disasters. Private schools would not be required to take these children. They can be selective. Stop putting down public teachers and go help out at your local P.T.A. They need people who care and they make such a difference.
I also looked at the rates of other private schools, and yes, they were much less expensive, but still a burden as you put it. Why should some rich kids be enabled to attend Waterford? If the money was only going to the poor who were in schools that were not up to par, it would be different. One school in my area is about $5,000. It is also a religious school. I object to my tax money going to subsidize a religious institution. One other thing you don't know as you are probably not a teacher. I won't work for a private or even charter school. The pay is much less, the benefits are lacking. All teachers that I know who teach at a private school want to work for my school district. I have one kid who has fetal alcohol syndrome, two with ADHA, three with emotional problems. Others with home lives that are disasters. Private schools would not be required to take these children. They can be selective. Stop putting down public teachers and go help out at your local P.T.A. They need people who care and they make such a difference.
QOTU | 4:52 p.m. Sept. 23, 2007
I laughed out loud when I read that the Informed Voter PIC is a "grass
roots effort." Since when is a "grass roots effort" led by
legislative leaders, lobbyists, and corporate CEO's? Sounds like political
backscratching with something to be politically gained by someone. Very fishy!
JWC | 4:52 p.m. Sept. 23, 2007
Being from Southern Utah I have decided that since I do not drive like I-80 and
do not plan to drive on it I would like the government to issue me a voucher so
that my highway tax dollars can be used for the roads that I actually use.
Why should I have to pay for roads that I don't even use.
RJMOM you assume that because Utah public schools spend over $7500 per student that they will save $7500 with each child that is taken out of the system. The $7500 is portion of a whole you can't just remove it piece by piece and save money. The difference between educating 30 students and educating 25 students is the cost of materials because the number of teachers is not affected. So in reality the cost per student will actually increase by removing students from the public system. It's basic economics.
Why should I have to pay for roads that I don't even use.
RJMOM you assume that because Utah public schools spend over $7500 per student that they will save $7500 with each child that is taken out of the system. The $7500 is portion of a whole you can't just remove it piece by piece and save money. The difference between educating 30 students and educating 25 students is the cost of materials because the number of teachers is not affected. So in reality the cost per student will actually increase by removing students from the public system. It's basic economics.
Disillusioned | 5:14 p.m. Sept. 23, 2007
For the person who had the question about accountability, there are many
different levels.
STATE/TAXPAYER ACCOUNTABILITY:
Every year, schools take the Utah Criterion Referenced Test (CRTs). Based on these results, schools are compared to how they did the year before.
Because of No Child Left Behind, schools must reach their Adequate Yearly Progress (AYP) in 40 different areas- test scores being one of them. If they do not make it, they are put on probation for one year. The State Department of Education steps in and oversees that necessary changes are made to improve AYP the following year.
ACCOUNTABILITY WITH STATE/NATIONAL STANDARDS:
STATE/TAXPAYER ACCOUNTABILITY:
Every year, schools take the Utah Criterion Referenced Test (CRTs). Based on these results, schools are compared to how they did the year before.
Because of No Child Left Behind, schools must reach their Adequate Yearly Progress (AYP) in 40 different areas- test scores being one of them. If they do not make it, they are put on probation for one year. The State Department of Education steps in and oversees that necessary changes are made to improve AYP the following year.
ACCOUNTABILITY WITH STATE/NATIONAL STANDARDS:
jackhp | 5:26 p.m. Sept. 23, 2007
The truth about RJMOM's post: she is wrong on every count.
Vouchers will not increase parental choice. Parents already have every choice available to them. Most private tuition is more than $3000/year, not to mention the extra costs associated with private schools (uniforms, transportation, lunches, etc.) Low income parents, who are supposedly set to gain "choices" with vouchers, will not gain any true measure of "choice" with only a $3000 voucher.
Vouchers will not reduce class sizes. Class sizes are set according to a formula. If too many students leave a school, then a teacher will be cut as well. In some cases, class sizes will actually go UP because of vouchers.
cont'd below . . .
Vouchers will not increase parental choice. Parents already have every choice available to them. Most private tuition is more than $3000/year, not to mention the extra costs associated with private schools (uniforms, transportation, lunches, etc.) Low income parents, who are supposedly set to gain "choices" with vouchers, will not gain any true measure of "choice" with only a $3000 voucher.
Vouchers will not reduce class sizes. Class sizes are set according to a formula. If too many students leave a school, then a teacher will be cut as well. In some cases, class sizes will actually go UP because of vouchers.
cont'd below . . .
Disillusioned | 5:27 p.m. Sept. 23, 2007
STANDARDS ACCOUNTABILITY:
Most every field has some kind of standards to which they must perform. Teaching is no different.
National organizations have established standards for what to teach in Math, English, Science, History, etc. States and school districts have standards, also. (Hopefully, they align with national standards.)
TEACHING CERTIFICATE STANDARDS:
This is set at the state level. Each state may have slightly different requirements. Most agree that you must have a four year, college degree in Education. If you teach in secondary education, you must teach within your field of study. For example, if you majored in math, you can teach math. If you majored in English, you may not teach math.
In addition, most states require new teachers to pass two exams. One is the Praxis Content Knowledge and the Praxis Teaching and Learning. If you do not pass these test, you do not get a teaching license.
Teachers may retain their license by taking more classes (either through a university or school district).
Finger printing and background checks are mandatory.
Also, if a teacher does not meet their annual goals or prove student learning, the principal will put them on probation and/or be fired.
Most every field has some kind of standards to which they must perform. Teaching is no different.
National organizations have established standards for what to teach in Math, English, Science, History, etc. States and school districts have standards, also. (Hopefully, they align with national standards.)
TEACHING CERTIFICATE STANDARDS:
This is set at the state level. Each state may have slightly different requirements. Most agree that you must have a four year, college degree in Education. If you teach in secondary education, you must teach within your field of study. For example, if you majored in math, you can teach math. If you majored in English, you may not teach math.
In addition, most states require new teachers to pass two exams. One is the Praxis Content Knowledge and the Praxis Teaching and Learning. If you do not pass these test, you do not get a teaching license.
Teachers may retain their license by taking more classes (either through a university or school district).
Finger printing and background checks are mandatory.
Also, if a teacher does not meet their annual goals or prove student learning, the principal will put them on probation and/or be fired.
jackhp | 5:29 p.m. Sept. 23, 2007
cont'd response to RJMOM,
Vouchers, in general, do not increase per student spending in public schools. The exception is for the first five years when mitigation money will be available. But the mitigation money is estimated to amount to about $25 per student for those remaining in public schools statewide. $25 on top of the $7500 we already spend is HARDLY a windfall for public schools. The only other way public school funding will be increased is if the Legislature actually votes to increase the funding. Vouchers have nothing to do with it.
I cannot comment on the methodology of the USU study, but in order to save money with vouchers there has to be a relatively high switch rate (students going to private schools BECAUSE of the vouchers). The Legislature's own fiscal analysis has determined that switch rate to be about 14.5% relative to the current population of private school students. In order for this voucher program to just BREAK EVEN, the switch rate needs to be about 36%.
cont'd below . . .
Vouchers, in general, do not increase per student spending in public schools. The exception is for the first five years when mitigation money will be available. But the mitigation money is estimated to amount to about $25 per student for those remaining in public schools statewide. $25 on top of the $7500 we already spend is HARDLY a windfall for public schools. The only other way public school funding will be increased is if the Legislature actually votes to increase the funding. Vouchers have nothing to do with it.
I cannot comment on the methodology of the USU study, but in order to save money with vouchers there has to be a relatively high switch rate (students going to private schools BECAUSE of the vouchers). The Legislature's own fiscal analysis has determined that switch rate to be about 14.5% relative to the current population of private school students. In order for this voucher program to just BREAK EVEN, the switch rate needs to be about 36%.
cont'd below . . .
jackhp | 5:39 p.m. Sept. 23, 2007
cont'd response to RJMOM,
Unfortunately, parents aren't always the best stewards of the public's tax money. Voucher programs have historically been wrought with fraud and abuse and the parents have done little, if anything, about it (probably because they didn't realize it was going on.) The current voucher law has very little accountability so that we may be confident that our tax dollars are being used wisely.
You missed several options that you ALREADY have: 1) choose a charter school, 2) open a charter school, 3) choose a private school (yes you ALREADY have that option), 4) Quit whining! You can vote for Legislators who WILL increase funding to public schools so that they can hire more teachers and decrease class sizes.
Unfortunately, parents aren't always the best stewards of the public's tax money. Voucher programs have historically been wrought with fraud and abuse and the parents have done little, if anything, about it (probably because they didn't realize it was going on.) The current voucher law has very little accountability so that we may be confident that our tax dollars are being used wisely.
You missed several options that you ALREADY have: 1) choose a charter school, 2) open a charter school, 3) choose a private school (yes you ALREADY have that option), 4) Quit whining! You can vote for Legislators who WILL increase funding to public schools so that they can hire more teachers and decrease class sizes.
Master's of Business | 5:59 p.m. Sept. 23, 2007
Thanks RJMOM, I did not want to take the time to dig up numbers. But I always
cringe when I see the unsupported statements saying vouchers will hurt
financially in the underfunded and overcrowded school system.
How will it hurt the system to take kids away at less of a cost then leaving them in? People bring up the fixed costs whether kids are their or not. But that argument does not hold water in the long run because Utah schools are continually growing and less kids in the system means less need for more buildings, teachers, buses, lunches, etc.
How can it not help the overcrowded 35 kid classrooms if we spread the burden out. Isn't the overcrowding only going to be more of a problem in the future?
How will it hurt the system to take kids away at less of a cost then leaving them in? People bring up the fixed costs whether kids are their or not. But that argument does not hold water in the long run because Utah schools are continually growing and less kids in the system means less need for more buildings, teachers, buses, lunches, etc.
How can it not help the overcrowded 35 kid classrooms if we spread the burden out. Isn't the overcrowding only going to be more of a problem in the future?
WOW | 6:05 p.m. Sept. 23, 2007
Why would someone donate $1000's of dollars to support something that might
not save them a dime???
I'll bet you see THEM open up the school and collect the vouchers. They are business men plain and simple.
Parents, YOU hold the teachers accoutable. Go and give some time. Read with your kids. If the teachers ins;t doing the job, go to the principal and on up to the school board. Just try to go over something more than you kid not playing. It seems that what really is important now days. Letting home school kids play sports (haveing the benifits of PUBLIC SCHOOL) or running of the coach for not giving your offspring a fair shake.
GIVE ME A BREAK!!!
I'll bet you see THEM open up the school and collect the vouchers. They are business men plain and simple.
Parents, YOU hold the teachers accoutable. Go and give some time. Read with your kids. If the teachers ins;t doing the job, go to the principal and on up to the school board. Just try to go over something more than you kid not playing. It seems that what really is important now days. Letting home school kids play sports (haveing the benifits of PUBLIC SCHOOL) or running of the coach for not giving your offspring a fair shake.
GIVE ME A BREAK!!!
Middle income | 6:06 p.m. Sept. 23, 2007
This debate seems similar to Health Savings Accounts which allow me to use
pretax dollars to save and spend for my choice in health care. So in effect I
am getting gov't help to supplement my hard earned dollars for my choice in
care. How terrible...
They work great because it is money in my control and I use it wisely because I have control and personal incentive to maximize my dollars. If I argue like the anti vouchers statements above, it could be said that the gov't is subsidizing my private health care? So what is better, Socialist gov't health care for the masses that has continually proven in Canada and Europe to offer poor service and is abused to the max just like every other handout socialist program that takes away personal responsibility, self reliance, and freedom.
This is similar to vouchers. Parents will have some of what is generally their tax money refunded to personally try to get the most bang for the buck with. Isn't giving people more responsibility always the best way to get the best results. I pay alot of taxes but can't afford private schools at this point. Vouchers would help.
They work great because it is money in my control and I use it wisely because I have control and personal incentive to maximize my dollars. If I argue like the anti vouchers statements above, it could be said that the gov't is subsidizing my private health care? So what is better, Socialist gov't health care for the masses that has continually proven in Canada and Europe to offer poor service and is abused to the max just like every other handout socialist program that takes away personal responsibility, self reliance, and freedom.
This is similar to vouchers. Parents will have some of what is generally their tax money refunded to personally try to get the most bang for the buck with. Isn't giving people more responsibility always the best way to get the best results. I pay alot of taxes but can't afford private schools at this point. Vouchers would help.
Ogrepete | 6:09 p.m. Sept. 23, 2007
Vouchers mainly allow kids who were already slated to go to private school to go
there cheaper... This equates mainly to subsidized private schools. Can you
hear the "giant sucking sound" from the state budget as private
schools sprout up around the state?
Public funds should be used on public education, period. If you can't afford to send your kids to private school, but want to afford it, work 3 jobs, borrow the money, live in a trailer instead of a house, but don't hold out your hand asking others to help pay.
In the meantime, work on making public school education better.
Public funds should be used on public education, period. If you can't afford to send your kids to private school, but want to afford it, work 3 jobs, borrow the money, live in a trailer instead of a house, but don't hold out your hand asking others to help pay.
In the meantime, work on making public school education better.
A few facts | 6:22 p.m. Sept. 23, 2007
I don't have the facts in front of me so correct me if I am off on
anything, but when I investigated vouchers
I saw that high income folks will not be benefiting because the more you make the less of a voucher credit you get down to nothing. And folks who already have their kids in a private of homeschool will not benefit because the voucher is only for kids who are taken from a public school to attend a private.
So what is the big deal, if we are lessening the burden on the overcrowded system and spending less tax dollars to educate more people? If we spend $10,000 per year to educate a tax paying citizen's kid now, but with vouchers only spend $$500 to $3000 to help the tax paying citizen educate their kid, how are we losing financially as a state? I know the school people gripe because for every kid that does not sign up, they get less money allocated for their district. But that is ignoring the big picture entirely. Aren't we trying to lessen the burden on the system as a whole?
I saw that high income folks will not be benefiting because the more you make the less of a voucher credit you get down to nothing. And folks who already have their kids in a private of homeschool will not benefit because the voucher is only for kids who are taken from a public school to attend a private.
So what is the big deal, if we are lessening the burden on the overcrowded system and spending less tax dollars to educate more people? If we spend $10,000 per year to educate a tax paying citizen's kid now, but with vouchers only spend $$500 to $3000 to help the tax paying citizen educate their kid, how are we losing financially as a state? I know the school people gripe because for every kid that does not sign up, they get less money allocated for their district. But that is ignoring the big picture entirely. Aren't we trying to lessen the burden on the system as a whole?
rj | 7:08 p.m. Sept. 23, 2007
Anytime a national union (the NEA) pumps hundreds of thousands or millions of
dollars into a local issue, or a local campaign; you can go to the bank that the
people need, desperately need, whatever the big national union is opposing
(vouchers).
Their actions beg the question, what is the NEA so concerned about? It's definitely not education, education has never been the priority or focus of the NEA, they are a political organization, education is secondary. So what does the NEA fear? They fear choice, they fear freedom, they fear competion--the NEA cannot deal with any of those.
Let's wake up and kick the NEA out of Utah. If education were under local control, the feds were out of the picture, and the NEA did not exist; Utah would not even be considering vouchers!
Their actions beg the question, what is the NEA so concerned about? It's definitely not education, education has never been the priority or focus of the NEA, they are a political organization, education is secondary. So what does the NEA fear? They fear choice, they fear freedom, they fear competion--the NEA cannot deal with any of those.
Let's wake up and kick the NEA out of Utah. If education were under local control, the feds were out of the picture, and the NEA did not exist; Utah would not even be considering vouchers!
Jared | 7:10 p.m. Sept. 23, 2007
While no longer living in Utah, I still follow Utah news closely. It is sad that
many inside Utah are so misinformed concerning the voucher legislation. It would
be of some benefit to read the actual legislation instead of the pro and anti
propaganda.
The issue is really about allowing parents to choose the best form of education for each of their children. Wealthy individuals that are not satisfied with public schools can already send their children to private schools. Vouchers benefit those lower and middle income parents that make great sacrifices to provide their children with the best education for their children.
We already have a nationally run voucher program that, I am sure, many voucher opponents used to partially fund their college education; the Federal Pell Grant Program. Pell Grants can be used to attend private or public universities anywhere in the nation. I would hope that those that oppose the current voucher legislation would also take up arms against Pell Grants.
We homeschool our children because we are not satisfied with the public schools in our area yet cannot afford private school tuition. I long for similar voucher legislation to be passed in our current state.
The issue is really about allowing parents to choose the best form of education for each of their children. Wealthy individuals that are not satisfied with public schools can already send their children to private schools. Vouchers benefit those lower and middle income parents that make great sacrifices to provide their children with the best education for their children.
We already have a nationally run voucher program that, I am sure, many voucher opponents used to partially fund their college education; the Federal Pell Grant Program. Pell Grants can be used to attend private or public universities anywhere in the nation. I would hope that those that oppose the current voucher legislation would also take up arms against Pell Grants.
We homeschool our children because we are not satisfied with the public schools in our area yet cannot afford private school tuition. I long for similar voucher legislation to be passed in our current state.
YES to vouchers | 7:10 p.m. Sept. 23, 2007
Teaching certification standards "Disillusioned" are not sorting out
good from bad teachers. How come there are teachers abusing children in their
classroom in the news every day?
It is a bit different than doctors or lawyers if you ask me because having knowledge about teaching doesn't make you a good teacher. There is now way to test how much you "love" the students or your subject matter. Private school teachers are usually more motivated than public school teachers. I know, I taught in a public school. Standards are good but how do you make sure someone is a good teacher by just looking at their grades? Obviously hasn't worked so far and even background checks don't pull out the bad apples. I'd take a great teacher over a certified teacher for my children anytime and support vouchers.
It is a bit different than doctors or lawyers if you ask me because having knowledge about teaching doesn't make you a good teacher. There is now way to test how much you "love" the students or your subject matter. Private school teachers are usually more motivated than public school teachers. I know, I taught in a public school. Standards are good but how do you make sure someone is a good teacher by just looking at their grades? Obviously hasn't worked so far and even background checks don't pull out the bad apples. I'd take a great teacher over a certified teacher for my children anytime and support vouchers.
ProsCons | 7:13 p.m. Sept. 23, 2007
After reading all these comments today, it is quite obvious that there could be
great things or not. There could bad things or not. I can't seem to
forget or reject the idea that no matter what, I can do better when I have the
choice, the power, the incentive, the control. I have learned by very
successful business associates that you always plan on the positive. Its
obvious that it isn't always that way, but you don't plan on every
thing being doom and gloom. When we plan for positive, then we make positive.
I hear way too many horrible stories coming from the public school system. It
is posible that there are horrible stories coming from the private ones too.
Sadly, the public system just doesn't have my confidence any more. I
expect a lot out of my tax dollars. Alot! I'm tired of poor management,
poor administration, and poor results. I hope that we have the power to use our
vouchers where ever, possibly at the better run public schools even.
Not a Teacher | 7:23 p.m. Sept. 23, 2007
I had some thoughts. Teachers don't always get a fair shake. They put up
with some really horrible kids. They have some pretty mean parents to deal
with. I do feel for you. It seems though when ever change is in the wind,
everyone in the establishment freaks out. Listen, for all we know, it is the
best thing that ever happened to your industry. Who knows, even if public needs
less teachers, then you find a job that doesn't involve bad kids, bad
parents, politics, and the rest. It might be refreshing. We don't need to
spend more money, we need to spend it better. And nobody spends it as wisely as
the ones who earn it.
Certificates | 7:40 p.m. Sept. 23, 2007
I wish all those that have to get certificates the best. They are a kind of
license. But I have a gripe about the whole weight of their value. I had to
get B.S. My major required 128 credit hours. That meant in real world hours
1872 hours in class. My point, I have friends that have to get certificates and
they go up to SLC and for a day, they spend 4-6 hours in a class and come back
saying they have been trained and have a handy dandy certificate. Ok...I
actually think that is better than no certificate. But when folks beat us over
the head that you have to get certified, you have to get certificates, and the
lot, I guess I just don't put you at the same measure as those that had to
spend agillion hours becoming engineers, doctors, and accountants. Now, when
you chose the Education industry, you didn't pick the harder degrees for a
reason. Trust me, there are times I wish I went to school for 76 credit hours
instead of 128.
No kids | 7:46 p.m. Sept. 23, 2007
I am a DINK (double income no kids). My wife and I claim M zero on our taxes and
still have to pay a hefty amount on april 15. Plus we own property so we
contribute that way as well.
We are both voting against vouchers because we feel parents should pay for their kids. If they want a choice in their kids education and want society to pay for it, then they should forgo their child tax credit for their children so more money is in the pot.
Until people with children do this I dont think they should complain. They are getting complete strangers to pay to educate their children, but get a tax refund check.
In addition, if your child can not read or add then you are to blame. If your kid doesn't graduate high school then you are to blame. If your kid is having trouble with passing classes or test year after year and you are not helping them with their homework or getting them a tutor you are a terrible parent.
We are both voting against vouchers because we feel parents should pay for their kids. If they want a choice in their kids education and want society to pay for it, then they should forgo their child tax credit for their children so more money is in the pot.
Until people with children do this I dont think they should complain. They are getting complete strangers to pay to educate their children, but get a tax refund check.
In addition, if your child can not read or add then you are to blame. If your kid doesn't graduate high school then you are to blame. If your kid is having trouble with passing classes or test year after year and you are not helping them with their homework or getting them a tutor you are a terrible parent.
Give Vouchers A Chance | 8:28 p.m. Sept. 23, 2007
My children started out in the public system where we were unsatisfied for years
before moving them, at great sacrifice, to a private school. I work full-time
to keep them there, and vouchers will not help us.
I shake my head at the people who think they can solve the public schools problems by getting involved in the PTA or talking to the principal or even going to the district. Been there, done that. My actions resulted in new training for teachers, funding for special programs, and an amazing Red Ribbon Week. None of that changed the type of education my kids were getting.
There are big problems in public education and they need big solutions. The legislature has appropriated millions more dollars to public education this last session. Directing more money to the system may help; it seems we're all willing to see how it works out. Vouchers is another big solution to public education's problems. It may not be the perfect solution, but why not give it a shot?
I shake my head at the people who think they can solve the public schools problems by getting involved in the PTA or talking to the principal or even going to the district. Been there, done that. My actions resulted in new training for teachers, funding for special programs, and an amazing Red Ribbon Week. None of that changed the type of education my kids were getting.
There are big problems in public education and they need big solutions. The legislature has appropriated millions more dollars to public education this last session. Directing more money to the system may help; it seems we're all willing to see how it works out. Vouchers is another big solution to public education's problems. It may not be the perfect solution, but why not give it a shot?
Back In Utah | 8:55 p.m. Sept. 23, 2007
Dear RJ Mom, as I understand the voucher system if a low income student leaves
the Public School system their new school gets the $3,000, but the additional
$4500 stays in the school system. How does that save the state 1 billion
dollars. The state is still putting out the same amount of money.
Also as I understand, the first five years the voucher money comes out of the general fund and the schools still get the $7500 dollars for each student that leaves the public schools. Then the legislature will decide what will happen with funding after those five years.
As I see the problem the schools will see they have fewer students, so they will then reduce the number of teachers and keep the teacher/pupil ratio high. That is the way District Superintendents and Boards of Education think. That is not how the school administrators think, but they don't control the money.
I left California and moved back to Utah to get away from wacko legislators and they all followed me to Utah.
Also as I understand, the first five years the voucher money comes out of the general fund and the schools still get the $7500 dollars for each student that leaves the public schools. Then the legislature will decide what will happen with funding after those five years.
As I see the problem the schools will see they have fewer students, so they will then reduce the number of teachers and keep the teacher/pupil ratio high. That is the way District Superintendents and Boards of Education think. That is not how the school administrators think, but they don't control the money.
I left California and moved back to Utah to get away from wacko legislators and they all followed me to Utah.
jackhp | 9:04 p.m. Sept. 23, 2007
I'm sick and tired of debunking the same stupid "facts" every
time a new voucher thread is started.
Therefore, I'm just going to say that the commenter named "A few facts" has actually provided no facts. Every "fact" he has stated is in fact wrong. If you don't believe me, then YOU prove it.
Therefore, I'm just going to say that the commenter named "A few facts" has actually provided no facts. Every "fact" he has stated is in fact wrong. If you don't believe me, then YOU prove it.
mike | 9:14 p.m. Sept. 23, 2007
I send my daughter to a private University. She could go to a state school but
has chosen a private University. I would no more ask the general public to pay
for that as I would if she were in a private high school or Jr High. Rumor has
it that some of our legislators are financially connected to some of these
private schools they are supporting.
jackhp, bipartisan fact checker | 9:44 p.m. Sept. 23, 2007
Back in Utah,
You've somewhat confused the mitigation money issue. Your first statement is closer to how it will work, but only for the first five years. Your second statement concerning the schools getting $7500 for each student that leaves public schools is simply not true.
Here's how the mitigation money will work. Basically, each school district will receive money for each student that leaves their schools and receives a voucher. The mitigation money will be equal to the per pupil funding (ostensibly $7500) less the average statewide voucher amount (estimated to be about $2008). Therefore the mitigation money is estimated to be approximately $5492/student.
Now, what the pro-voucher folks won't tell you is that based on the Legislature's own fiscal analysis, the mitigation money is estimated to be less than $25 per student remaining in public schools state wide. $25 on top of the $7500 we already spend is hardly a windfall for public schools.
Your second statement is not
You've somewhat confused the mitigation money issue. Your first statement is closer to how it will work, but only for the first five years. Your second statement concerning the schools getting $7500 for each student that leaves public schools is simply not true.
Here's how the mitigation money will work. Basically, each school district will receive money for each student that leaves their schools and receives a voucher. The mitigation money will be equal to the per pupil funding (ostensibly $7500) less the average statewide voucher amount (estimated to be about $2008). Therefore the mitigation money is estimated to be approximately $5492/student.
Now, what the pro-voucher folks won't tell you is that based on the Legislature's own fiscal analysis, the mitigation money is estimated to be less than $25 per student remaining in public schools state wide. $25 on top of the $7500 we already spend is hardly a windfall for public schools.
Your second statement is not
jwinkel | 10:20 p.m. Sept. 23, 2007
Dear Anonymous,
"they are only going to make it more affordable for the people who are already going there"
If you already have kids in private schools, they are ineligible.
"public schools (the great equalizer)"
Public schools are the great equilizer at the lowest denominator. You must think communism is great.
"give more money to the priviledged upper class."
The upper middle class doesn't get jack in this bill. It is based on pay scale.
READ before you speak!
"they are only going to make it more affordable for the people who are already going there"
If you already have kids in private schools, they are ineligible.
"public schools (the great equalizer)"
Public schools are the great equilizer at the lowest denominator. You must think communism is great.
"give more money to the priviledged upper class."
The upper middle class doesn't get jack in this bill. It is based on pay scale.
READ before you speak!
jackhp | 10:31 p.m. Sept. 23, 2007
jwinkel,
"If you already have kids in private schools, they are ineligible."
Yeah, but that's only half the story. Every year, a new grade's worth of private school students, including those who would have never set foot in a public school, become eligible to receive vouchers.
After 13 years the program is fully implemented and the taxpayers will be subsidizing the private education of thousands of kids who would have gone to private schools anyway.
Can you please tell me how this is an appropriate use of TAXPAYER money?
"If you already have kids in private schools, they are ineligible."
Yeah, but that's only half the story. Every year, a new grade's worth of private school students, including those who would have never set foot in a public school, become eligible to receive vouchers.
After 13 years the program is fully implemented and the taxpayers will be subsidizing the private education of thousands of kids who would have gone to private schools anyway.
Can you please tell me how this is an appropriate use of TAXPAYER money?
jwinkel | 10:32 p.m. Sept. 23, 2007
Reading these comments is infuriating. "Silver spoons, privileged, rich,
exclusive rich."
This bill doesn't give money to the rich. It is designed for the poor and middle class. Read the bill.
This bill doesn't give money to the rich. It is designed for the poor and middle class. Read the bill.
jackhp | 10:33 p.m. Sept. 23, 2007
Oh, and jwinkel, could you and your buddies please lay off the red-baiting. The
Cold War is over . . . just so you know.
:) | 10:37 p.m. Sept. 23, 2007
Expect a lot of misinformation as the vote gets nearer. It is quite obvious to
me that plenty of paid lobbyists have been hitting the boards today. I have
been following the debate for months now (non-union teacher) and this thread
reeks of paid lobbyists spam. The question is how much are they paying you?
Hopefully minimum wage because that is the quality of your arguments.
Bill Gates | 10:53 p.m. Sept. 23, 2007
I have read both bills JTwinkle (you have not apparently). Poor people like me
can't make up the 1.5 K PER child to make up for the average cost of a
Private education. I am still out in the cold. However If I was Bill Gates and
living in Utah, I'd get half a grand back as a voucher. Does that seem to
help the rich or the poor more?
Consider that Utah has more kids per family than you out of state lobbyists. We can't afford with five kids the extra $7,500 plus the costs of uniforms and transportation to send them to a private school.
Consider that Utah has more kids per family than you out of state lobbyists. We can't afford with five kids the extra $7,500 plus the costs of uniforms and transportation to send them to a private school.
Ethan | 11:22 p.m. Sept. 23, 2007
A comment like "system is failed" is just ignorant. Im not a teacher, not involed in any union that supports teacher. I attended Utah public schools and I happen to think that I received a good education. I learned the things I needed to learn and had the help at home that I needed to get me through it. The system is not failed. It is not perfect (like every other government funded program isn't) but it is ok. We should try to make it better and I think that money that could be spent to help it should not go towards private help.
The other thing is saying that the bill is designed to help the poor and middle class. It sounds pretty and great, but reading the bill and looking at costs of private school is funny. People that can't afford to send their kids now, will not be sending them after receiving a little bit of kickback. It's a good thought and I think that competition is ok for the educators but this is not why this bill is being passed. It is all about money, not education.
L | 11:35 p.m. Sept. 23, 2007
OK you have convinced me, public schools are bad & private schools are
better therefore maybe we should abandon public schools altogether and make them
all private.
I don't know, would we then collect tax money to run these private schools or should they just compete against each other (and make each other better).
In addition we won't need a State Board of Education etc. and can save even more money + everyone will get a better education.
HOW ABOUT THAT?
I don't know, would we then collect tax money to run these private schools or should they just compete against each other (and make each other better).
In addition we won't need a State Board of Education etc. and can save even more money + everyone will get a better education.
HOW ABOUT THAT?
rob | 12:26 a.m. Sept. 24, 2007
This has been very interesting to me. I live in Idaho and Republicans are in a
mood to bring in a voucher system/merit pay etc.. I am middle income and have my
child in a public charter school (home school model)with my 3rd grader. The
issues for me are safety, crowded classrooms, teachers having to spend most of
their time teaching to the middle/giving very little time for more gifted
students, a bus system that takes a child 45 minutes to get a child to a school
that is 5 minutes away and that has to pick them up at 7:00 a.m. and that means
getting them up at 6:15 a.m.. I am tired of having to reteach my child manners
that are obliterated by kids that have so few. Why is it that teachers put rude
kids next to my child so that they can help fix them? How would you like to have
to sit next to a disfunctional behavior problem day in and day out. IF a person
is suppose to become informed on something as important as vouchers why
don't you have a place to read the whole bill for yourselves?
John M responds | 3:21 a.m. Sept. 24, 2007
For the record, I am not a teacher. I have no connection whatsoever to either
side of the issue, so please don't assume what I am or am not.
I am a father and a citizen who worries about the education of my children, grandchildren and all children who need quality education in this state. I am seeing a widening disparity which is making that quality education less accessible to growing numbers of our state's children. I do not believe that a state voucher program is any kind of a solution to this problem.
I was educated in Utah and California, and managed to survive them both - just barely! I did, however, learn to think.
Anyone can take facts and numbers and make them say whatever they choose. You can put a dress and lipstick on a pig and call it whatever you want for as long as you want. You can rant, rave, belittle, demean and use whatever tactics you choose to cloud the air and muddy the waters. In the end, it's still a pig and will never be anything else.
I am a father and a citizen who worries about the education of my children, grandchildren and all children who need quality education in this state. I am seeing a widening disparity which is making that quality education less accessible to growing numbers of our state's children. I do not believe that a state voucher program is any kind of a solution to this problem.
I was educated in Utah and California, and managed to survive them both - just barely! I did, however, learn to think.
Anyone can take facts and numbers and make them say whatever they choose. You can put a dress and lipstick on a pig and call it whatever you want for as long as you want. You can rant, rave, belittle, demean and use whatever tactics you choose to cloud the air and muddy the waters. In the end, it's still a pig and will never be anything else.
rural | 4:23 p.m. Sept. 24, 2007
I live in very rural utah and my kids are raised but the public schools my kids
went to were so bad im amazed they were able to read at all. With vouchers just
maybe a private school will open and make it better for my grand kids(one can
only hope) but there is another answer, send all the illegals back home class
size goes way down, cost goes way down, education goes way up make english the
only language tought in our schools, bring prayer and god back too school in
fact thats the main reason i will vote for voucers and every god fearing parent
should also vote that way couse in private schools you the parent choose what
school they go too and whats in it for your kids. And after all arent the kids
what this is all about?
To Rural | 5:06 p.m. Sept. 24, 2007
Rural,
I am perplexed. Our rural schools aren't overcrowded and don't have a lot of access to Private schools. Vouchers would not benefit your grandkids. Those Private Schools that may exist (though I am aware of none) would likely be under the forty student requirement or be run out of a residence so they could not accept vouchers from the state anyway.
If vouchers DO pass in Utah, I expect a private school will open in Hilldale run by the FLDS and the public one to be closed down. Is that the type of bringing God back to the schools that you want from Vouchers?
I am perplexed. Our rural schools aren't overcrowded and don't have a lot of access to Private schools. Vouchers would not benefit your grandkids. Those Private Schools that may exist (though I am aware of none) would likely be under the forty student requirement or be run out of a residence so they could not accept vouchers from the state anyway.
If vouchers DO pass in Utah, I expect a private school will open in Hilldale run by the FLDS and the public one to be closed down. Is that the type of bringing God back to the schools that you want from Vouchers?
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if i am pro-life, does that mean i am anti-voucher?
can any one vouch for either?