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Both sides making quiet voucher moves
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Blaine | 1:33 a.m. Sept. 23, 2007
My children are grown, so I have no dog in this fight -- except my
grandchildren. Our government schools desperately need competition. When
taxpayers are required to cough up money to run government schools, it reduces
their ability to send their children to other schools that give better results
without the socialist indoctrination imposed by NEA teachers. Vouchers are a big
step in the right direction. My big complaint is the income-based sliding scale
the legislature imposed. If a taxpayer pays $3000 in taxes to support government
schools, he should get that money back if he choses to send his family to
non-government schools. He should not be required to still send a part of his
income to support a school system that is crippled by the NEA.
John M | 1:55 a.m. Sept. 23, 2007
Silly me! I have always thought that our legislators are in place to listen to
their constituents and then act on their behalf. I must have been absent or
sleeping in my government & political science classes when they taught us
the part about our elected officials working in collusion with small segments of
special interest groups to defeat and/or circumvent the will of the majority.
The legislators in the last session passed the voucher bill in spite of the outcry of large segments of the people of this state. If they were so confident that they acted on behalf of, and in the best interest of the majority at that time, why do they now feel the need to band together to defeat the lawful efforts embodied by the referendum?
Given these examples of the attitudes of our representatives in this matter and their recent decisions to limit public access to the chambers, offices, hallways and stairway of OUR government buildings, it is ever more evident that these folks are most at ease to have us out of sight and out of mind - leaving them free to do their own will, not ours.
The legislators in the last session passed the voucher bill in spite of the outcry of large segments of the people of this state. If they were so confident that they acted on behalf of, and in the best interest of the majority at that time, why do they now feel the need to band together to defeat the lawful efforts embodied by the referendum?
Given these examples of the attitudes of our representatives in this matter and their recent decisions to limit public access to the chambers, offices, hallways and stairway of OUR government buildings, it is ever more evident that these folks are most at ease to have us out of sight and out of mind - leaving them free to do their own will, not ours.
Comments continue below
Tiny | 5:04 a.m. Sept. 23, 2007
To tongue in cheek: What does being a good Mormon have to do with this article?
The LDS Church isn't even mentioned in it.
My kids go to public school, but I feel it's the right of every parent to decide where they want their kids to go. If I could I would put my kids in a private school, but I can't afford it.
My kids go to public school, but I feel it's the right of every parent to decide where they want their kids to go. If I could I would put my kids in a private school, but I can't afford it.
Simple Response to John M | 6:57 a.m. Sept. 23, 2007
Why would it be wrong for legislators to try to educate people on why they
support this program? When people understand the voucher scholarship program,
they tend to support it. Those who don't have the details tend to oppose
it. So - big vote coming up - why not explain the program? I think they owe it
to us to make an effort to do that.
Jack | 6:58 a.m. Sept. 23, 2007
Silly me John M, using your logic then the legislature would pass legislation
that fires bad teachers (overwheliming support), provides teachers with merit
pay (overwhelming support), implementing more money for classrooms in the form
of .65 percent solution (overwhelming support), passes paycheck protection
(which is ovrwhelmingly supported by voters but held up due to unoin lawsuits),
etc. There are more support for these public school reform measures then there
are people opposed to vouchers. So using your logic, hopefully you will be on
Capitol Hill this winter pushing these wildly popular and important public
school reform measures. Because you have a special interest group who has a
personal financial self interest of a teacher's union does not qualify for
as a "large segment" opposing vouchers. Apparently you did sleep in
your political science class.
John | 7:20 a.m. Sept. 23, 2007
Good to see these politicians willing to stand up on principle for a change.
Taking on the powerful teachers' union takes guts as well as brains. They
have a big challenge as the power hungry union bosses have been very deceptive
in misrepresenting what vouchers will (and will not) do to help our kids.
Let's all invest in quality education by donating to support vouchers!
Dave | 7:26 a.m. Sept. 23, 2007
Apparently it's not enough for all the multikid families out there to ask
me, being single, to pay more in taxes to educate their multitudes while they
get a bigger tax break for having even more kids. Now they want me to pay more
so they can have a "better" education.
They say our schools need competition. Guess what? Competition already exists. Just don't ask me to foot the bill for you. I don't ask for a tax refund when I use Fedex or UPS to avoid the massive blob of incompetence known as the US Postal Service - that would be ludicrous. But that's the logic the pro-voucher folks are using.
Lastly, I don't know why our legislators are bothering to organize and defeat this. The sad thing about referendums is they last only as long as the Legislature wishes. Remember the referendum to put drug forfeiture funds into the general revenue base to ensure cops aren't biased to abuse the system in order to enrich them and their department? The referendum passed overwhelmingly. Soon after, the legislature overturned the people's vote by eradicating that law. Amazingly, no one seemed to care.
Trust me, they'll do it again.
They say our schools need competition. Guess what? Competition already exists. Just don't ask me to foot the bill for you. I don't ask for a tax refund when I use Fedex or UPS to avoid the massive blob of incompetence known as the US Postal Service - that would be ludicrous. But that's the logic the pro-voucher folks are using.
Lastly, I don't know why our legislators are bothering to organize and defeat this. The sad thing about referendums is they last only as long as the Legislature wishes. Remember the referendum to put drug forfeiture funds into the general revenue base to ensure cops aren't biased to abuse the system in order to enrich them and their department? The referendum passed overwhelmingly. Soon after, the legislature overturned the people's vote by eradicating that law. Amazingly, no one seemed to care.
Trust me, they'll do it again.
C me vote no | 7:40 a.m. Sept. 23, 2007
Put your kids in private schools just don't ask for a government handout.
And don't tell me about how unfair it is to pay taxes when your kids are in
private school. I don't have any kids.
Anonymous | 7:48 a.m. Sept. 23, 2007
Quite frankly, vouchers are a bad idea. They are not going to allow anyone who
already can't afford to go to a private school to go to one, they are only
going to make it more affordable for the people who are already going there. My
main gripe with vouchers is that they are going to take more money away from
public schools (the great equalizer) and give more money to the priviledged
upper class. How is this supposed to be a good thing?
Pete | 7:50 a.m. Sept. 23, 2007
It concerns me when supposedly neutral legislators or legislators that should be
listening to the people are engaged in such obviously one sided campaigning
against this referendum.
Mike A. | 8:16 a.m. Sept. 23, 2007
Communities for Quality Education, the organization mentioned in the article,
also gets its funding from NEA and the union's state affiliates. It was
formed in 2004 by NEA and is run entirely by current and former NEA staff and
officers.
dyc | 8:27 a.m. Sept. 23, 2007
I've said this before and I'll say this again. I wouldn't have a
problem with vouchers if private schools were held to the same standards as
public schools. Why should private schools be able to have public money, but
not have to take the special needs children? Why should private schools not
have to take and pass the same Core tests that public schools do? Why should
private schools be able to "cherry pick" which children they want to
admit, or keep in their schools. Accepting public money means you should be
held to the same standards as public schools.
A Republican | 8:35 a.m. Sept. 23, 2007
It's really very surprising that our legislators are more interested in
convincing us that they were right to vote in vouchers, even though the majority
of their constituents are against them.
More surprising still is the arguments that they use. For most people the biggest problem with vouchers is accountability when spending public money. Under the voucher bill private schools are not required to pass state accreditation or use certified teachers.
The legislators well orchestrated response to this concern is that accreditation and certification don't mean anything.
If you get a chance, ask them about accreditation and certification. Then when they say "it's only a piece of paper," (I actually heard one say this - I am not making this up. I'm just not that funny or imaginative.) - when they say "it's only a piece of paper and doesn't matter," ask them about certification for doctors, lawyers, plumbers and truck drivers. My so called "conservative" representative told me those people didn't need state licensing either.
It's pure cognitive dissonance and money is driving the process.
More surprising still is the arguments that they use. For most people the biggest problem with vouchers is accountability when spending public money. Under the voucher bill private schools are not required to pass state accreditation or use certified teachers.
The legislators well orchestrated response to this concern is that accreditation and certification don't mean anything.
If you get a chance, ask them about accreditation and certification. Then when they say "it's only a piece of paper," (I actually heard one say this - I am not making this up. I'm just not that funny or imaginative.) - when they say "it's only a piece of paper and doesn't matter," ask them about certification for doctors, lawyers, plumbers and truck drivers. My so called "conservative" representative told me those people didn't need state licensing either.
It's pure cognitive dissonance and money is driving the process.
:P | 8:40 a.m. Sept. 23, 2007
Blaine,
I have no kids in school. Why not give me back 'my' tax money too since it is 'my' tax money and I am not using 'my' tax on public education.
Your argument doesn't hold any water. It isn't an individuals money once tax is paid. It is the State or local municipalities revenue to be used for the public benefit. Breaking down the taxation system would end or reduce such services as roads and free public education, and that is what vouchers presently do.
Then consider that many families with children pay much less tax then is used for their child's education. I doubt there are many families that pay more in tax then the benefits they receive because of the child tax credit. We ALL shoulder the costs of education in Utah. I just see vouchers as a way for the few elite who are able to go to a private school to be able to opt out on their responsibility to pay for the education of others.
I have no kids in school. Why not give me back 'my' tax money too since it is 'my' tax money and I am not using 'my' tax on public education.
Your argument doesn't hold any water. It isn't an individuals money once tax is paid. It is the State or local municipalities revenue to be used for the public benefit. Breaking down the taxation system would end or reduce such services as roads and free public education, and that is what vouchers presently do.
Then consider that many families with children pay much less tax then is used for their child's education. I doubt there are many families that pay more in tax then the benefits they receive because of the child tax credit. We ALL shoulder the costs of education in Utah. I just see vouchers as a way for the few elite who are able to go to a private school to be able to opt out on their responsibility to pay for the education of others.
David Styvaert | 8:41 a.m. Sept. 23, 2007
Wow. "John M" and "tongue in Cheek" ... spoken like true
teachers union members, as only a teacher would be against competition in a
completely failed public school system.
THE ONLY THING THAT MATTERS HERE is to note that teachers unions are dumping MILLIONS of dollars into this anti-voucher cause. Why in the world does a teachers union have that much money? I thought all teachers were so underpaid. What are they afraid of, that kids might get well educated enough to see how terrible public schools are?
A vote against vouchers is a vote against parents rights because you believe that teachers know better than parents. And that's just silly.
THE ONLY THING THAT MATTERS HERE is to note that teachers unions are dumping MILLIONS of dollars into this anti-voucher cause. Why in the world does a teachers union have that much money? I thought all teachers were so underpaid. What are they afraid of, that kids might get well educated enough to see how terrible public schools are?
A vote against vouchers is a vote against parents rights because you believe that teachers know better than parents. And that's just silly.
BigAl | 8:51 a.m. Sept. 23, 2007
Looks like the BIG BUCKS are all coming from a single out-of-state source, the
NEA. Why would that be? Is the leadership of this organization so terrified of
competition that they'll spend such a large amount of teacher's union
dues to prevent parent's choice in seeking the best education for their
children? Aren't these some of the same people who demand
"Pro-Choice" in other areas of our lives? Throughout our history,
competition has proved to be beneficial in every aspect of our lives. Why not
this one?
stevo | 8:53 a.m. Sept. 23, 2007
Cheek nails it, there is no reason to approve vouchers. Look for big time
revenge from our beloved legislators when their bill is chrushed by the informed
voters. I would even look for them to try to get rid of the referendum process,
you just can not leave law to the silly voters.
Lewis B | 8:55 a.m. Sept. 23, 2007
The problem with Blaine's logic is that most people don't pay enough
taxes to support even one child in public schools for a year. Many people who
will take advantage of vouchers are doing so on someone else's dime. And
what about childless people. Should they even have to pay taxes to support
other people's children?
What is most ironic of all, is that government subsidies of private entities is socialism. Everyone keeps touting vouchers as leading to competition, but I view it as government interference in private schools. Vouchers are simply socialism. I will make sure my children will remain in a private school that doesn't accept vouchers, not in a hybrid private school with the state government calling the shots as time progresses and abuses begin to happen.
What is most ironic of all, is that government subsidies of private entities is socialism. Everyone keeps touting vouchers as leading to competition, but I view it as government interference in private schools. Vouchers are simply socialism. I will make sure my children will remain in a private school that doesn't accept vouchers, not in a hybrid private school with the state government calling the shots as time progresses and abuses begin to happen.
Concerned | 8:56 a.m. Sept. 23, 2007
The quality of our education have steadly declined since the unions were allowed
in our schools I think during the Kennedy administration.Test scores have
dropped.It seems the emphatus has been more on our teachers rather than the
Students.I know God has completly disappeared from our socialist schools.I
believe without competition the schools will never improve.The Teachers and
there familys have led the fight to get rid of vouchers encouraged by there
unions who doesnt believe in free enterprise.
JGolden | 8:59 a.m. Sept. 23, 2007
Seems to me that the very people bankrolling this folly are those who 1. Are
recent transplants from California and elsewhere, and 2. For the most part
don't have children in elementary or secondary schools in Utah. Folks,
catch a clue...Utah public education isn't the road to perdition...say like
in LA Unified, or SF Unified. If Mr. Park City Corporate Raider was really
concerned about the future of education, where was he in the fight to improve
education in his former home state of California.
Is there room for improvement in Utah...You bet. Are vouchers the answer?...not at this time.
Don't let the same political philosphy that delivered us massive public debt...and endless body bags from Iraq...not "surge" into our classrooms!!!
Is there room for improvement in Utah...You bet. Are vouchers the answer?...not at this time.
Don't let the same political philosphy that delivered us massive public debt...and endless body bags from Iraq...not "surge" into our classrooms!!!
Matt | 9:04 a.m. Sept. 23, 2007
I think the voucher program is good. It should help improve the overall quality
of public education in Utah, since it would give the regular schools more
competition, thus benefiting the average student.
arc | 9:10 a.m. Sept. 23, 2007
You need to make sure people know that voting for is voting for vouchers. I know
it is backwards. I didn't want the referendum to have enough signatures. I
want the voucher bills to stay, but I need to vote for the referendum because
the way it is worded, voting for keeps the current bills. I guess the writer of
this didn't read the voters guide or listen to the ads.
Hold on here | 9:15 a.m. Sept. 23, 2007
Tongue in cheek and the rest of you who claim to be the majority, you are
missing the primary issue in this argument. This is all about the right to
spend your dollars in an alternate fashion if you are not pleased with the
results of the public education system. Not only will it make private schools
better, it will also make public schools rethink their priorities and will
result in a better public school system.
Take the religious undertones out of the argument and lets use logical thinking. Do we want the freedom to choose where to spend our tax dollars ear marked for education or not? As a parent who has raised 9 children in a total of 5 different states, having observed the public education system in many different localities and environments, I have to say that our public education system leaves much to be desired. All you have to do is take a look at how the US stacks up compared to results in other countries. We are now second rate when it comes to education and falling farther behind. There is no real discipline in our current public education system.
Take the religious undertones out of the argument and lets use logical thinking. Do we want the freedom to choose where to spend our tax dollars ear marked for education or not? As a parent who has raised 9 children in a total of 5 different states, having observed the public education system in many different localities and environments, I have to say that our public education system leaves much to be desired. All you have to do is take a look at how the US stacks up compared to results in other countries. We are now second rate when it comes to education and falling farther behind. There is no real discipline in our current public education system.
S Holm | 9:19 a.m. Sept. 23, 2007
I am disappointed that some of our state legislators think they have the power
and authority to change our laws to suit themselves with the belief that they
know what is best for all of us. Our Republican form of government is based on
the belief that individuals have the right, ability, and responsibility to think
for themselves and make right decisions. I am almost persuaded to become a
democrat! (I believe they often listen to the people.) I am very disappointed
in the representative from my area and will definitiely vote against him in the
next election. Power begets power. It's time to vote down these powerful
Republican leaders!
D. Farr | 9:25 a.m. Sept. 23, 2007
Have the Parents for Choice and Greg Curtis forgotten the Dan Jones Poll that
showed 78% of the people of Utah did NOT want school vouchers. They voted
against "the will of the people" the first time and seem determined to
spend milions of dollars so they can do it again. We used to work together to
educate our youth. Now it appears our legislature is determined to pass a bill
that reinforces "education by the rich for the rich".
Melissa | 9:29 a.m. Sept. 23, 2007
PUBLIC, Public money. PRIVATE SCHOOLS, Private money. How hard is that to
understand?
Wrong Blaine | 9:32 a.m. Sept. 23, 2007
I don't want my taxes going to fund someone's private education. You
pay the 3k to the government because because it's for the better good for
society. If you choose to send your child elsewhere, that's your personal
decision. Vouchers are nothing more than giving a tax break to rich people.
You can't honestly tell me more disadvantaged kids will get in to private
schools because vouchers are available. It's just going to make being in
the exclusive rich kids cleb easier, all while taking money from an already
disadvantaged public school system.
ABSENT ONE | 9:47 a.m. Sept. 23, 2007
It's nice to be thousands of miles away now where some bigot isn't
always dragging the LDS church into every issue at hand.
JJ76 | 10:01 a.m. Sept. 23, 2007
I don't understand the big debate on this issue. Where have we ever said
govn't has done a great job? When was the last time we said, "I had
the best experience with the DMV." Or, "Can't wait for FEMA to
show up." If you don't have to compete in a real free market
enviroment, then you don't ever rise to a level to reach competence.
I'm an employer and I just figured kids coming out of high school are
smarter than when I came out of school 10 years ago. Wow, high school kid after
high school kid just keeps bursting that idea. They don't know how to
type, write, spell, do math (and I mean basic math). I know not everyone is
like this coming out of the public school system, but I'm just not
impressed. I demand excellence. Why don't you?
One final reason to give my support to vouchers. I believe in change, its got to happen. Things in govn't that don't change become ineffective. So, good luck to all, I'll see you in the lines of the DMV.
One final reason to give my support to vouchers. I believe in change, its got to happen. Things in govn't that don't change become ineffective. So, good luck to all, I'll see you in the lines of the DMV.
No Kids. | 10:08 a.m. Sept. 23, 2007
This is a real easy solution to you "no kids" group and this voucher
issue. Don't own property. You'll nip your contributions in the bud
in a hurry. Buy property and you will, voucher or no voucher.
A word to dyc | 10:24 a.m. Sept. 23, 2007
You're killing me. Hold private to the same standards as public.
Serious?! And what are those standards? The low ones or the low ones? The
word standard doesn't imply good. Please, if anyone has anything to do
with getting our kids educated it is us driving the standards. Think of it this
way, if schools don't get every dime just because they are here, then they
will be forced to improve their system. That is good. Privated schools
won't get a dime unless folks are convinced their is a reason to send them
there. Accredited or not. Support the freedom to allow parents stronger
choice.
Kirk R. | 10:30 a.m. Sept. 23, 2007
BIG AL - the big bucks are also coming from an out of state pro voucher group
who have also contributed money to law makers. Get your facts straight.
Improvement | 10:50 a.m. Sept. 23, 2007
I am not a teacher or a member of NEA. The fact is that our test scores have
risen since 1974, with a sharp increase from 2000 to present (in reading).
Those of you who are saying our schools are failing, what is your source? Mine
comes from the NAEP test results. If your going to claim our schools are
failing, please reference your data source. I'd be interested in seeing
your proof. And please, not making AYP does not mean a school is failing.
There are 40 different areas a school has to pass, not meeting one of those
labels an entire school as failing.
Judy | 10:59 a.m. Sept. 23, 2007
Vouchers may be good for a few families, but they are not good for society.
They will make the gap between the elite and others wider.
Also, not all private schools are better than public education. My children have friends who were behind them because they attended private schools.
Also, not all private schools are better than public education. My children have friends who were behind them because they attended private schools.
Huh?? | 11:07 a.m. Sept. 23, 2007
Since when has this turned into a parental choice issue? Parents have a choice
whether to send their little darlings to private or public schools. Send your
little darlings to private school, just don't ask me to help pay for their
education. You decide on a private school, you know there is tuition involved.
You pay the bill for that tuition plain and simple. Don't ask for a hand
out! Don't ask tax payers to pay for your decision! If you are truly
conservative republicans, you will not want government handouts.
Passing vouchers will not allow any more kids to go to private school. Vouchers seem to me an idea hatched by the privileged to have the lower class help pay for their litle darlings. This way their little darlings can always have that proverbial silver spoon, I'm better than you attitude. The latest statistics do show our public school test results are better than the national average. PLEASE become informed and VOTE NO ON VOUCHERS!!
Passing vouchers will not allow any more kids to go to private school. Vouchers seem to me an idea hatched by the privileged to have the lower class help pay for their litle darlings. This way their little darlings can always have that proverbial silver spoon, I'm better than you attitude. The latest statistics do show our public school test results are better than the national average. PLEASE become informed and VOTE NO ON VOUCHERS!!
They can choose | 11:08 a.m. Sept. 23, 2007
I agree that parents should be able to choose where to send their children: if
they want to send them to private school, that's great. But they should
pay for it themselves.
Vouchers would only help those who are wealthy anyway. Poor families wouldn't be able to afford to transport their children to private schools. They would not be able to afford the additional costs (vouchers won't cover the whole tuition), supplies, uniforms, etc. What about kids who are on free lunch/breakfast programs at their schools? Vouchers can't make up for that either.
And everyone who says that this isn't going to cost taxpayers any extra money is kidding themselves: whatever money is being used for this can't then be used for something else. Money is money, and this costs.
If vouchers aren't repealed, I believe the issues will be taken to court, where more money will be spent and, ultimately, I believe the law will not be upheld.
I am not a teacher. I'm not part of any union. And I agree that the public school system is broken. But this isn't the way to fix it.
Vouchers would only help those who are wealthy anyway. Poor families wouldn't be able to afford to transport their children to private schools. They would not be able to afford the additional costs (vouchers won't cover the whole tuition), supplies, uniforms, etc. What about kids who are on free lunch/breakfast programs at their schools? Vouchers can't make up for that either.
And everyone who says that this isn't going to cost taxpayers any extra money is kidding themselves: whatever money is being used for this can't then be used for something else. Money is money, and this costs.
If vouchers aren't repealed, I believe the issues will be taken to court, where more money will be spent and, ultimately, I believe the law will not be upheld.
I am not a teacher. I'm not part of any union. And I agree that the public school system is broken. But this isn't the way to fix it.
FAIR | 11:14 a.m. Sept. 23, 2007
Why not give all parents three thosand dollars for each child they send to
school whether public or private and let them use use it as they see fit for
their child`s education
Uneven playing field | 11:16 a.m. Sept. 23, 2007
Public schools and private schools should not be regarded as competing like some
people suggest. Since public schools are governed by a completely different set
of rules than private schools, how can one make a fair assessment as to who is
doing better? Don't forget one other thing, at least with public schools,
the public owns the buildings, property, and materials within. Private schools
are owned by investors who expect to turn a profit. This equates to public
education dollars finding their way into a few well-positioned pockets. I
wonder how many of our state legislators will be financially benefiting from
school vouchers?
Henry Drummond | 11:21 a.m. Sept. 23, 2007
I appreciate reading all these comments. Ultimately the pro-voucher group has
helped me decide which way to vote. I'm voting against vouchers.
Parent Choice? It's their choice but our money. Vouchers don't even begin to cover the cost of private school tuition. You still have to be rich to afford it even with vouchers.
More money for public schools? In twelve years all of the students in private school will be subsidized under this bill. Right now we pay nothing. We will be paying for millionaires to send their kids to private schools we can't send our kids to.
This isn't a Parent Choice Bill. Its a tax subsidy for the wealthy.
Some Choice.
Parent Choice? It's their choice but our money. Vouchers don't even begin to cover the cost of private school tuition. You still have to be rich to afford it even with vouchers.
More money for public schools? In twelve years all of the students in private school will be subsidized under this bill. Right now we pay nothing. We will be paying for millionaires to send their kids to private schools we can't send our kids to.
This isn't a Parent Choice Bill. Its a tax subsidy for the wealthy.
Some Choice.
Mike | 11:24 a.m. Sept. 23, 2007
I am in my 15th year of teaching. I do not belong
to the "union." I pay my student loan instead of
"union" dues. I am anti-voucher because of the money
that will go to the private schools and the lack of
accountability. But I could be wrong. I do know a
few things for sure. Every year I teach I will have
34 to 36 students each class period. I will have
students who want to learn, students who are
wasting their time in school, and everything in between. I will have parents who think I am a great teacher and parents who think I am the worst.
Is public education as bad as everyone says it is?
I am too involved in the day to day process to be
objective. I do know one more thing for sure. From
my perspective there are four major players in the
education of our children. The students, parents, teachers and administrators. Teachers and administrators get most of the attention about accountability. Why is there not equal attention given to the students and parents? If all four groups would step up and do their part, vouchers
might be a non issue.
to the "union." I pay my student loan instead of
"union" dues. I am anti-voucher because of the money
that will go to the private schools and the lack of
accountability. But I could be wrong. I do know a
few things for sure. Every year I teach I will have
34 to 36 students each class period. I will have
students who want to learn, students who are
wasting their time in school, and everything in between. I will have parents who think I am a great teacher and parents who think I am the worst.
Is public education as bad as everyone says it is?
I am too involved in the day to day process to be
objective. I do know one more thing for sure. From
my perspective there are four major players in the
education of our children. The students, parents, teachers and administrators. Teachers and administrators get most of the attention about accountability. Why is there not equal attention given to the students and parents? If all four groups would step up and do their part, vouchers
might be a non issue.
Nick | 11:52 a.m. Sept. 23, 2007
These "vouchers" are unconstitutional. They would take my money (at
threat of imprisonment if I try not to pay) and give it to private sectarian
schools. That's forcing me to endorse religious instruction and it's
as clear a violation of both the Utah State and U.S. Constitutions as
you're likely to ever see.
People who want to send their kids to private religious schools are welcome to do so - but not with public taxes.
People who want to send their kids to private religious schools are welcome to do so - but not with public taxes.
Disillusioned | 12:01 p.m. Sept. 23, 2007
Overall, Utah public schools are not failing. Can we do better? Yes. Will the
voucher bill improve schools? No, I don't believe so.
The way to increase student achievement is by hiring "highly effective" teachers (see the research of Marzano, 2000) and lowering class sizes.
I would love to have a smaller class size like private schools. How could a teacher fail in teaching only 12 students per class?
Yet, as a public, elementary school teacher, I take everyone that comes through my classroom door... no matter what academic level they are at, whatever their struggles are, their SES, culture, language, or ethnicity. And I try to do my best everyday with 27 students. I am accountable to many people- students, parents, principals, and taxpayers.
Don't tie my hands further by taking away money from public school classrooms. I already know what I'm competing against. And somehow, the odds are stacked against my success.
The way to increase student achievement is by hiring "highly effective" teachers (see the research of Marzano, 2000) and lowering class sizes.
I would love to have a smaller class size like private schools. How could a teacher fail in teaching only 12 students per class?
Yet, as a public, elementary school teacher, I take everyone that comes through my classroom door... no matter what academic level they are at, whatever their struggles are, their SES, culture, language, or ethnicity. And I try to do my best everyday with 27 students. I am accountable to many people- students, parents, principals, and taxpayers.
Don't tie my hands further by taking away money from public school classrooms. I already know what I'm competing against. And somehow, the odds are stacked against my success.
Lorraine | 12:07 p.m. Sept. 23, 2007
I am against vouchers. I am also a school teacher who belongs to the UEA.
Because I belong to the UEA, I am forced to belong to the NEA. I don't
agree with much of what the NEA stands for and I know many teachers who
don't agree either. In fact, I don't know any teacher that agrees
with most of what the NEA says. I belong because they protect my interests and
they have done a lot of good when it comes to improving my job quality. I love
teaching, but when I hear about wanting to divert desperately needed money to
private schools, I am concerned. And no, I'm not complaining about my pay.
Most private schools are VERY expensive. I just checked the Waterford School
in Sandy. 11,000 to 15,000 dollars. WOW! That 3,000 dollars for the poor to
send their kids to a private school is REALLY going to help. That probably
doesn't even include lunch, supplies, and transportation. Utah has
wonderful teachers who care and put in a lot more time than they are paid for.
Such things make me feel extremely unappreciated. Ah, well, back to grading
papers for me!
Rob | 12:14 p.m. Sept. 23, 2007
"Government Schools" is Libertarian for public schools. I guess they
think it's a good tag line public relations wise. I think they assume most
of us hate the government.Why don't they ever refer to "the government
army", or "governmennt Marine Corps"? Just wondering.
No Kids Here | 12:18 p.m. Sept. 23, 2007
My wife and I have no children. I am happy to have money go towards vouchers,
even if it means a little more taxes. As far as the accountability issue, point
me to a specific, non-biased source that supports the notion that a
"certified" teacher does a better job that a non-certified one, or
that private education centers do not use certified teachers. In a free market,
would I not send my children to a school where all teachers are certified if it
was proven to me they did a better job?
Carol B | 12:19 p.m. Sept. 23, 2007
WHO ever said the Republican efforts to coerce the very lobbyists who NEED their
votes on various issues to "assist" them in the pro-voucher effort was
QUIET?!? Utah Public Employees/Officers Ethics Act that forbids public
officials from using their positions for gain?
Also, voters have NO idea if these same Republicans are behind the Republican/Pro-voucher = good Mormon ads. No one can find out who paid for the ads. And the Lt. Gov's "investigation". . .
Also, voters have NO idea if these same Republicans are behind the Republican/Pro-voucher = good Mormon ads. No one can find out who paid for the ads. And the Lt. Gov's "investigation". . .
Back In Utah | 12:55 p.m. Sept. 23, 2007
I spent 33 years in education in California. Several points.
1. I was a Teacher's Association President and was not popular with the California Teacher's Association, nor the NEA because I fought them on numerous occasions. What the teachers wanted was not always right. There are times the administrator has to have control or things will go to pot.
2. As a high school administrator it was up to me to hire the best teachers and ensure that they continued to improve their teaching. It took time, effort, counseling, coaching and being in the classroom daily. It was not easy, but it was well worth it. Weak teachers were weeded out.
3. If education is so important, why do so few people vote for school boards? California it was 16-18%. Is it any better in Utah? I have not seen the stats. How often do you attend Board Meetings?
4. Every person, even those without children, benefits from an educated society. Look at the third world countries who have few kids attend schools.
5. Private schools do well because parents are there helping, not complaining because Johnny is in trouble and blaming the school.
1. I was a Teacher's Association President and was not popular with the California Teacher's Association, nor the NEA because I fought them on numerous occasions. What the teachers wanted was not always right. There are times the administrator has to have control or things will go to pot.
2. As a high school administrator it was up to me to hire the best teachers and ensure that they continued to improve their teaching. It took time, effort, counseling, coaching and being in the classroom daily. It was not easy, but it was well worth it. Weak teachers were weeded out.
3. If education is so important, why do so few people vote for school boards? California it was 16-18%. Is it any better in Utah? I have not seen the stats. How often do you attend Board Meetings?
4. Every person, even those without children, benefits from an educated society. Look at the third world countries who have few kids attend schools.
5. Private schools do well because parents are there helping, not complaining because Johnny is in trouble and blaming the school.
tongue and Cheek | 12:55 p.m. Sept. 23, 2007
The 'have to be a good Mormon and Republican' comes from this article
and the Sutherland report on vouchers. I don't buy into either myself. I
can be a good Mormon, Democrat, Catholic, Republican or whatever and still
object to vouchers.
Yes I am a teacher. I am not, nor will I ever be a member of the UEA or NEA. They aren't the largest groups rallying against vouchers anyhow, just the ones the spin-masters hope get voters upset enough to vote for Vouchers. Try the PTA, the parent organization that is embedded in likely all public schools. These parents were responsible for the referendum and they are concerned. They are the largest group that have been fighting against government subsidizing private education not the weak teachers union.
Yes the UEA is weak. They have been trying unsuccessfully to oust Bramble, Curtis and Stephenson from the State Legislature. They have been trying to lobby for many things in education. They always come up short. They aren't where the true leadership is. It is with the parents of the PTA.
Yes I am a teacher. I am not, nor will I ever be a member of the UEA or NEA. They aren't the largest groups rallying against vouchers anyhow, just the ones the spin-masters hope get voters upset enough to vote for Vouchers. Try the PTA, the parent organization that is embedded in likely all public schools. These parents were responsible for the referendum and they are concerned. They are the largest group that have been fighting against government subsidizing private education not the weak teachers union.
Yes the UEA is weak. They have been trying unsuccessfully to oust Bramble, Curtis and Stephenson from the State Legislature. They have been trying to lobby for many things in education. They always come up short. They aren't where the true leadership is. It is with the parents of the PTA.
Corky B. Poppenhafer | 1:08 p.m. Sept. 23, 2007
Lorraine:
"Most private schools are VERY expensive. I just checked the Waterford School in Sandy. 11,000 to 15,000 dollars. WOW! That 3,000 dollars for the poor to send their kids to a private school is REALLY going to help."
And Rowland Hall is comparable. Now we have two of the priciest private schools pigeonholed let's have a look at the rest of the story.
Many of the other private school tuition rates are much, much lower. My kids go to private school and the tuition rate per child is not too much more than that $3K you mentioned. We have poor families attending the school that are just barely able to do so. They sacrifice to be there. We have even had kids pay their own way. Some families leave because they can't afford a $100 per year tuition increase. The voucher credit would significantly help many poor families at many private schools in the state.
Be for vouchers or be against vouchers but be sure to present the complete picture in making your argument. Using Waterford tuition rates to marginalize the impact of voucher dollars on the poor is disingenuous and, if I may say so, rather lazy.
"Most private schools are VERY expensive. I just checked the Waterford School in Sandy. 11,000 to 15,000 dollars. WOW! That 3,000 dollars for the poor to send their kids to a private school is REALLY going to help."
And Rowland Hall is comparable. Now we have two of the priciest private schools pigeonholed let's have a look at the rest of the story.
Many of the other private school tuition rates are much, much lower. My kids go to private school and the tuition rate per child is not too much more than that $3K you mentioned. We have poor families attending the school that are just barely able to do so. They sacrifice to be there. We have even had kids pay their own way. Some families leave because they can't afford a $100 per year tuition increase. The voucher credit would significantly help many poor families at many private schools in the state.
Be for vouchers or be against vouchers but be sure to present the complete picture in making your argument. Using Waterford tuition rates to marginalize the impact of voucher dollars on the poor is disingenuous and, if I may say so, rather lazy.
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No wonder the Pro Voucher crowd has a tough sell in Utah. Voters actually read and become informed and can smell when something is funny. They should try a different approach--honesty. But let's be honest, even our legislators who were bribed into the voucher mess by out-of-state special interests don't know what the law is or is not supposed to do.
I don't feel vouchers are going to harm public schools, nor going to cause Public schools to change. I do think vouchers are an excellent way to get some government control in Private schools, and if they can lead to more regulation then they MUST be good.
There really isn't any reason to approve vouchers.