I wouldn't call that much of an apology - not a sincere one anyway. More PR
than anything else. Take responsibility. Isn't that what our "leaders" have
taught us? I guess it's 'do as we say, not as we do'.Sad.
The Church didn't say anything new. They have said for years it was local church
leaders. Read the actual comments. Pretty bad when both papers puts the same
spin on what was said.
Come on, people. This event happened 150 years ago. No one alive today was
responsible. It's like asking people to apologize for slavery or for the use of
atomic weapons.The context of the times was a highly emotional,
difficult time, in that the LDS people had been chased from several states by
mobs and many LDS people viewed themselves as God's only chosen people. Blame
on both sides.How about we look forward, not back. Not much to be
gained by name calling and finger pointing at this point. The LDS Church has
committed to honoring the victims by keeping up the monument. That's a big
Anything the church could say at this point is going to taste like PR; the thing
happened 150 years ago! There's not much else to say, especially now that it's
been made "official." Hopefully people someday will let this rest and consider
the fact that maybe there's nothing more to know than what has been brought to
light. 150 years after the fact, it's unlikely that conspiracy theorists are
going to dig up anything new, and hostile speculation is just going to keep
President Hinckley made this exact same apology over 12 years ago. How many
more times will the Church need to apologize?It was 150 years ago and
Brigham Young nor any other general church authority had anything to do with it.
Should the general Church need to apologize again and again? I don't believe
they should.There is no spin. Just the facts. The local Church leaders
made a horrible mistake. Can't we just move on?I don't see the same folks
who harp on the Church for the MMM, insisting that the State of Missouri
apologize again and again for the murder of my ancestor at Haun's Mill;or the
rape and plunder of other ancestors at Far West.It seems as if there will
always be a double standard with those who love to demean the Church. Should we
expect anything less from hypocrites like that?I suppose not.
The statement goes much farther than necessary. Why should church leadership
today apologize and express regret AGAIN & AGAIN for something local leaders did
150 years ago? As expected, it won't be enough for those who keep demanding
this unwarranted apology. Sad to see yokels with a distinct anti-mormon agenda
using the apology issue as a smokescreen to try and batter the church. Real
original. It's pathetic, and an utterly tacky use and abuse of the real tragedy
that happened at Mountain Meadows.
I am not sure just what people want in the way of an apology, ashes and
sackcloth? a public flogging? prehaps people need to be more willing to let the
past be the past and be more willing to forgive. I am not sure what good it does
to hold onto hateful feelings for 150 years. I am Native American and although
some horrible and unspeakable things happened to my people, I don't dwell on it
and hold a grudge, I have gotten over it and my life moved on. I feel for those
who lost loved ones in that tragic event, let the past be the past. I would
suggest that you move on and walk in the light of forgivness and let healing now
take place. The church has readily acknowledged that what took place was wrong,
I don't know what else you honestly expect the church to do. The past is the
past let it remain as such and take the apology that was issued and be at
Tell me - How can an apology be given or accepted when no living being on this
planet is guilty of the offense! An apology by the LDS Church! I should hope
not, but only a union of sorrow for the tragic massacre that occured at Mountain
Meadows. The circumstances surrounding this event are inextractable from its'
context one hundred fifty years into the future and even if they were, I did not
commit this crime, did you? Where then lies the value of an apology?
I commend the church leaders for stepping up and recognizing that it was church
members who committed this horrific and tragic event. However, we should look at
the church's teachings as a whole. We can not in society continue to judge an
entire faith based on a few members actions. Are all muslims bad because of few
radicals who have also commited horrific actions?
Having been to the monument, I say it is not yet sacred ground, but still has an
evil feel to it. It was a horrible tragedy, and those who commited it will be
held accountable, Matt. What do you expect? President Hinkly to resign or
something? Think, McFly, think. Anyway, those who won't let go of hard
feelings because of the traditions of their fathers won't accept this apology,
nor any other. Fine. That's their burden to bear. An apology is not something
that has to be accepted to be sincere.
Though the atmosphere in Utah was genuinely fearful and antagonistic with regard
to "gentiles" -- any non-Mormons from east of the Rockies in the fall of 1857,
and circumstantial evidence at the time (generally disproved since) did suggest
that this train of immigrants had ridiculed and harassed Mormon settlements
along the way, no act real or alleged could possibly justify the betrayal of
their trust and wholesale cold blooded murder. The Church is right to apologize
to the decendents of the families who were killed, and to the entire nation. It
may be said that the apology is overdue, and it may be said that unless a
personal expression of sorrow accompanies it, it is not complete. But I see
nothing in the statements of Elder Eyring yesterday or President Hinckley years
ago when the present memorial was dedicated that defends or attempts to excuse
the actions of the Church or of any of its members. They were indefensible and
as Eyring stated, the perpetrators will face divine justice, though many of them
may have escaped justice during their mortal lives. I think that is where we
all need to let the matter rest. If God is real, if he is just and all-knowing,
as all Christians will acknowledge, then leaving the final resolution of this
tragedy in his hands is entirely appropriate.
So the church is writing a book about that atrocity eh? I wonder who will
benefit from sales of the book. Hmmmmmm.....
Why is it that the LDS Church continually has to apologize for it's members. No
other church I know of has to go to the extent of the LDS Church...very
Darwin, Well said!
If my ancestors murdered or enslaved your ancestors, do I owe you an apology? I
dont think so. If you go far enough back, probably everyone has ancestors who
committed crimes against someone elses ancestors. By that logic, all of us would
owe everyone an apology. This includes those who are now asking for the Church
to apologize. I am always amazed that the victims descendants, after all
these generations, seem to take it so personally, as if they themselves were the
victims. By that logic, we are all victims, because Im sure that all of us had
at least one ancestor who was treated badly if not in the 19th century, maybe
in the 18th, 17th, or 16th. I might be able to see some merit in a church
apology had the massacre been an official church action, but the evidence does
not support that. The real apology needs to be made by the actual perpetrators
to the actual victims.
It is never enough for the Mormon haters. It doesn't matter what you say or how
you say it, they still want more. The funny thing is those who are demanding
more were not involved. But they will never be happy and that is their own
Apology? Hmm . . . I didn't hear or read any apology. I heard an expression
"of regret" which, in my opinion, is not an apology at all. The wording was
very carefully crafted to avoid apology. Even after the ceremony
and official statement, in interviews with LDS leaders, they completely avoided
anything to do with apology even when prompted. They emphasized the word
"regret" over and over. In no uncertain terms, I think the LDS legal
department told them not to "apologize".
LDS Church leaders are very wise men. I'm sure they have thought long and hard
about this particular statement and its context. One thought occurs to me about
the motives of those who having been asking for an apology from the Church: why
are they asking only for a Church apology; why do they not press the State of
Utah for an apology instead? After all, Brigham Young was the territorial
governor at the time, and the men in Cedar City and surrounding areas were civic
and state military leaders as well as church leaders. When the State of Missouri
issued an apology to the LDS Church a few years ago over the events of 1838, no
one even thought of asking the various churches that existed then in Missouri
and still exist today to also offer an apology. In 1857, all those in leadership
positions held dual roles, both church and state. I just think that the fact
that the LDS Church, and the LDS Church alone, has been pressed for an apology
reveals much about the true motives of those who are demanding the apology.
My ancestors were serial killers in our country. Few people know of them, but
some do when I tell them my last name. I don't apologize, I don't do anything
other than tell them it came from my family, long extended. I was not involved,
but it still stems from my roots. I feel they once again need to
apologize because it's come up again in the media, and nobody knows that church
leaders have apologized in the past, so they need to do it again so the accusers
can at least hear it. When the state of Missouri apologized for what their
people did to our people 150 years ago, it felt good to at least hear that, even
though they had no affiliation with that persecution. An apology can go a long
way, especially since when there is nothing else that can be done. Don't be criticizing our leaders. You raised your hand to sustain them, and
if they feel it necessary to apologize, then let them, and don't pull the "it's
a PR gag." You try being a leader of the Church in our world and see if you can
get over it,quit having anniversaries for every thing,leave anniversaries
for happy occasions.let these people rest in peace.
Just to clarify. When I wrote earlier that the LDS Church expressed "regret"
but did not apologize, I was not criticizing them necessarily. I was actually
critical of the Deseret News for headlining that the LDS issues apology when, in
fact, they did no such thing. Apparently the Deseret News feels a statement of
regret is an apology. I expect better interpretation from a news organization.
What more do you want?
Honestly! If this had just been a group of people from a different church do
you really think that people would blame that church? Most likely not! What
about the Hauns Mill incident? Now I know there weren't nearly as many
massacred but does he governer of Missouri have to apologize every year?
now if we can get the pope to apologize for the spanish inquisition, the
italians to apologize for the roman invasion of brittian, the french for
nepoleon's and robespierre's atrocitities, then the healing can really begin. by the way, the church didn't apologize, the church didn't order the
massacre...or at least there's no good evidence they did. by the way, if
we can compare how an organiation treats god's creatures on earth in these
times, i'd hold the lds church up against any other church or organization out
Get a life, folks. If you have to worry about something, why don't you concern
yourselves about, what you can do to help your country, today.
I have enough problems dealing with my own mistakes. I dont have enough energy
to worry about what ancestors 6 generations removed did nor does what they did
have any context in my current live except as example of what not to do in my
life (or what I should do based on what I have learned from them). My uncle was
a prisoner of war and suffered terribly by what was done to him. Has anyone
personally apologized for the brutalaties committed against him or his friends
who died? No! In his life he does not need that apology because he is a great
man and has forgiven them completely as he was taught and does not bear any ill
will, which feelings have been conveyed to his progeny (including me). Because
of his attitued and teachings I also feel no need to dwell on the past nor does
it affect my life except as an example based on his role model. I do not
anticipate his descendants 6 generations removed crawling back to his tormentors
( an organized state) demanding apologies because of his example and what he has
taught them. The need for an apology for past acts from descendants from any
crime points to a flaw in the past and an illustration of why we need to forgive
no matter what or bitterness and hate will be perpetuated.
I have ancestors in my family that did things that werent real great but i dont
own an apology for anyone. The church has apologized many times for what has
happened. We need to concentrate on what is going on in the world now and do
what we can to help our fellow man, etc. It was unfortunate what happened but
does it have to get hammered every year when it comes around (in the media)?
I just don't understand what the church has to lose by just coming right out and
saying "we're sorry." It seems like every year there's a semantic two-step that
stops short of a genuine apology. The ultimate apology would be to honor the
wishes of the descendents of the massacre and transfer control over the land and
monument to a neutral third party. But since the church can't even bring itself
to offer an unveiled apology, I doubt that we'll see a transfer of control
As several commenters have noted, if we were familiar with the history of our
ancestors, we would know that some of them had committed terrible acts while
others were the victims of terrible acts. In many cases, in times when blood
feuds were still common, the same people were both. Indeed, fantasies of
violent revenge by victims still fuel gang warfare and drive the plots of much
of our entertainment. At some point, there has to be repentance and forgiveness
on all sides, because the alternative is an endless round of violence.My mother was a teenager in Japan when her family's home was fire bombed
during World War II. My father was a member of the US Air Force in the
Occupation forces. They were brought together because her father was a
Christian who wanted to share their Christmas celebration with an American, just
as a Russian family had invited him to share Christmas in Siberia when he was a
Japanese soldier. All are in need of forgiveness and
reconciliation. Let us forgive as we wish to be forgiven.
I think it a little ridiculous that people feel the church should apologize for
actions church members made over a hundred years ago. There is no apology from
people in Missouri, Illinois, Ohio or New York for running church members off
their property by force. I think the church should turn over the Mountain
Meadows property as soon as the previous mentioned states return their stolen
property to the descendents of the legal owners. Now doesn't that sound
If any of my ancestors hurt or defamed any of your ancestors, I'm sorry. If
your people ever hurt my people, I accept your apology. O.K.?For those of
you complaining about the church not giving a "real" apology, get over it folks.
It was 150 years ago. It was a horrible, tragic event, but it is over. The
church is taking good care of the site, they are honoring the dead, and they
have acknowledged the part that church members played. Too now come up and say,
"Well, they didn't apologize the way I thought they should have" is unchristian,
and just plain whiney.Also, what interest would the federal government
have in maintaining this site. The LDS church has gone out of their way to
preserve the site, and committed to keep it up. Where has the church ever not
adequately maintained their property? I believe the site is in good hands.
Either Brigham Young and George A. Smith knew about and condoned the harassment
of the Fancher party or they did not. That must be sorted out by professional
historians and scholars, not by the uninformed opinions of newspaper readers.What historians and everyone else must agree is that the LOCAL LDS
Church leaders - the Stake President and his counsellors - are the ones who
carried out this horrific murder. That is fact with which nobody can argue.But the issue is the same either way. The Temple recommend (and the
doctrine of the Church) is that local Church leaders are "called of God" and
they are to be "sustained" and "obeyed."As such, in one sense it
does not really matter whether or not Brigham knew or condoned - in the final
analysis, members MUST NOT BLINDLY FOLLOW THEIR CHURCH LEADERS. And that runs
contrary to what the official Church demands. This is a problem no matter how
you slice it...
I am a descendant of John D. Lee. I know the history better than anyone. John D.
Lee's account as given in his final confession is as accurate an account as
anyone could give.John D. Lee was a scapegoat. He was on good terms
with the leaders (local and general, including especially Brigham Young) until
it became "inconvenient," and then he was made the scapegoat and killed - 20
years after the fact!There can be no question that Brigham Young's
status as an inspired "prophet" of God is tainted by the historical facts of
this incident. The MMM happened "on his watch" and under "color of office" of
his Church and by leaders of his Church.The only possible conclusion
any right-thinking person can draw from this is that the leaders of the Mormon
Church are not now, nor ever have been, the divinely inspired, infallible
"prophets, seers and revelators" that they claim to be.They are
merely mortal men who are doing the best they can, and many times they fall far
short of the best they can. They are as subject to corruption due to their
positions of power as anyone is, and they succumb to it more frequently
particularly because their power is absolute and unquestioned by so many
followers.And that is the danger... it was the danger in 1857 and it
is the danger today.
Institutions, as well as individuals, need to be held accountable, at some
level, for the actions of their publicly-called representatives. It's a
question of the "buck" -- where does the buck stop? At what level of
institutional representation? The Bishop, the Stake President, an Apostle? Or
are we dealing with a sliding rule...in case A (benign), the SP's actions
represent the church, but in case B (atrocity)the SP's actions do not represent
the church? When you say the "church" did this or didn't do that, who does
"church" refer to exactly?
How would our Saviour handle this situation? Would he express profound regret
for the actions of those called as his leaders in a particular area and leave it
at that? Or would He minister to those who are hurting because of the actions
of His temporal leaders? Or would He tell those hurting to get over it and move
on? Maybe He would prefer to pretend it never happened? Or maybe He would
justify it by saying look at what happened at Hauns Mill?He who I
worship loves and ministers unconditionally. If we are to be like Him then
maybe we ought not to judge but rather minister to those who are suffering as a
result of actions taken by local LDS church leaders.
Um Deano, Pope John Paul II did apologize for the Spanish Inquisition back in
2000. As a descendant of Don Francisco Robledo, a Jew who was tortured during
the Inquisition and then exiled to Mexico, his apology meant a lot to me in
allowing me to be able to forgive the Roman Catholic Church for the atrocities
it did to him.I'm also a descendant of William R. Parrish, who tried
to leave the LDS Church and Utah with his family in March 1857. But instead,
church leaders ordered him and family members to be set up in an ambush. As
they attempted to leave the state, William was stabbed to death and his son
Beason Parrish was shot to death,while another son, Orrin, was arrested, just
outside of Springville, Utah. The zealotry of the 1856-7 "Reformation" created
immense hysteria in the Utah theocracy, leading to the Parrish murders and just
a few months later, to the brutal tragedy at Mountain Meadows. Our family would
love to have an apology from the LDS church for ruthlessly killing a harmless
dissident, who simply wanted to leave the theocratic state, but I doubt we will
ever get it. Caveat creditor - believer, beware!
In answer to Kitenoa's question, I suspect millions of dollars, a public
admission that Brigham Young ordered the massacre (while twirling his beard and
laughing in an evil tone), and then the repudiation of all doctrines that the
Church's critics find distasteful.Oh, and force BYU to forfeit every
game they play this year.Okay, that last one was a joke.
Any of us that feel a need to go through life being victims of what occured many
years ago are never going to be happy. Get over it and do some good.My father used to say, "Whenever there is a victim, there must be a villan".
Living in Arkansas for a quarter century, I, too, get tired of hearing about
Mountain Meadows year after weary year. Each September, to be sure, we hear
about it in the newspapers and a small group of historians regularly bring it
up, as though it were the only injustice ever to befall Arkansans.
Bill, you're playing fast and loose with the truth. Where's the evidence
Brigham Young condoned the massacre? There is none. On the other hand, we have
his letter, late though it was, that said not to interfere with immigrants. "The only possible conclusion"? That's absurd. What, for example, does
Joseph Smith have to do with this? Your logic has some gaping holes.
Bill: First of all, I doubt you are the be all, end all authority on MMM as you
claim. Second of all, saying that it proves that Mormon leaders aren't divinely
inspired is quite close-minded. Even if Brigham Young HAD sent the command
(which at the beginning, Lee said he hadn't), this would be quite mild in
comparison with some of the things that God inspired men to do in Old Testament
Intelligent human beings learn from the past. History needs to be preserved and
future actions should reflect the lessons learned. Sweeping dastardly deeds
under the rug and advocating looking to the future and forgetting the past is a
cop out. Christianity must come to grips with its core belief that all mankind
is here to serve God and to do good by everyone. Real repentence comes from the
understanding and declaration that a bad action has taken place and that
forgiveness is desired.In today's vernacular, just pull up your jock
strap and/or panties and deal with it. Once it is sufficiently done then life
can go on.
Well Bill, no one has ever said the leaders of the Mormon church were in
fallible. That is a Catholic teaching. You are right, they are mortal men doing
the best they can. They are capable of making mistakes as individuals. Question,
how can one fall short of the best they can? And what evidence do you have that
they are corrupt and succumb to corruption frequently.Also, their
power is not absolute. In fact they have no power. Only authority. LDS church
members have always been taight to not take everything at face value. Go home
and pray about what has been taught, gain your testimony that what tehy have
said is true.
Oh please Bill give me a break. How many prophets in the Old and New Testament
never made any mistakes? By that statement alone one can only guess you don't
believe in God since he has called imperfect men to lead his Church since the
beginning. How many leaders of the LDS church have succumbed to corruption?
You can't name any except the ones you claim to know based on your heritage.Anyways Bill thanks for playing the good old game of "I think I know
everything and your all idiots"
I didn't think we live in the middle east were everyone blames and dose'nt
forgive..FORGIVENESS is what CHRIST professes get it.
So Bill, did you interview John D. Lee yourself? Did you interview all of the
purpotraitors and examine the evidence and then come to this sound conclusion?
Or are you driven by emotion because he is your relative?You are
welcome to your opinion and beliefs, I just have a question or two.Our prophets succumb to corruption more frequently because their power is
absolute?What power are you talking about? What have they ever done
besides teach us to be good and to love God?Regarding Brigham Young,
I give you this scenario, you raise your children, teach them the best that you
can, and one day your children are far away from home and they get involved with
something that goes against your family values for whatever reason. Does this
mean that you are a horrible or corrupt parent? Or does it mean that people
Among other definitions, an apology is indeed "an expression of regret"
according to Webster's dictionary and in any thesaurus as well. The apology was
not required indeed, but still an appropriate expression of sorrow and
compassion by the church, and very respectful of all involved.
A true apology would mean acknowledging some degree of complicity - an admission
of guilt. So either the church feels it isn't guilty but does feel sincere
regret that the events occured OR the church feels there is _nothing to feel
guilty about_ and so they express "regret" rather than remorse. I really
believe that it is the former - I believe their "regret" is sincere but that
noone today should have to express "remorse" for something in which noone still
living had a hand. If the Eastern states that persecuted and drove out those
early Mormons issued a statement of "regret" wouldn't that be enough coming from
them? I say the church AND the descendant of the victims have said more than
enough. It's the past. Learn from it, never forget its lessons, and move on.
Intolerance in ANY form - against Mormons, non-Mormons,
Evangelicals, Jews, Muslims, and even us Atheists has no place in a civilized
Hey Bill, I am a descendent of James Holt Haslam, the rider who rode to Salt
Lake and back to Mountain Meadow. Our history shows the innocence of the
Prophet. If anyone turned on Lee, it was the local leaders down in Mountain
Meadow. Elder Eyring was correct, Mountain Meadow was the work of local leaders
and none else.
Wow! Bill really is a descendant of John D. Lee. I believe other historians
would not agree with his depiction of brother Lee.
Bill, that was one of the most absurd pieces of anti-Mormon rhetoric that I have
ever heard.Twist and spin the story any way you see wish, but please
just get over it. Come on Bill...give me a break. A danger?
Only in your over-active imagination.Enough is enough people-this
was 150 years ago!Hard to believe that it is even an issue. But, it
is only an issue among those who hate the church.Hate away-we love
you Bill.By their fruits!JJ
I agree with clifffromcalifornia. If the "expressions of regret" or "apology",
however your semantics lets you interpret the event, helps the decendants heal,
the I have no problem with them. For those of us not involved, or related, lets
worry about problems that we can help, and create good will among people,
instead of building walls between "us" and "them".
Come on, people need to get over themselves. This is hardly a rational argument
against the LDS Church; it is just something that anti-Mormons bring up to make
Mormons look bad.Seriously, how can anyone reasonably shout about
something like the Mountain Meadows Massacre when other, older religions have
done worse? Look into history; these people should see what Catholics and
Protestants have on their record. But do you ever see people snarling at the
Catholics for the Spanish Inquisition? Nobody is perfect.No, it's
just because we're Mormons, people make a big deal out of a faulty piece of our
history because we're that weird cult in Utah and they want to make us look bad.
This is ridiculous. Get over yourselves.
In regards to the mountain meadow massacre. In the 1880's this statement was
made: Mormon literature, vol. 1, page 187 Quote; "This horrid crime has
been charged upon the Mormon Church, and especially upon the leading Elders. The
charge is not true. It is wickedly and maliciously false; was proven to be so by
repeated failure of the efforts of his enemies to fasten the crime upon Brigham
Young." .....So by issuing this appology the modern church has accepted the
blame for the criminal conduct of a few men who were members at the time, and
implicating the Leaders of the Church at the time. And they have opened the lid
to a pandora's box of future accusations and attacks by those who hate the
Mormon Church. In the second trial against John D. Lee the Prosecuting Attorny
Mr. Sumner Howard, Ex Chief Justice of Arizona, and the United States
Prosecuting Attorney said; quote.... "Lee gave the order to fire, and the
slaughter commenced; that Lee shot one woman with his rifle, and brained another
woman; then drawing his pistol shot another, and seizing a man by the collar and
drawing him out of the wagon, cut his throat; that he gathered up the property
of the emigrants and took it to his own place, using and selling it for his own
benefit and use." These were what John D. Lee was convicted of and executed for.
Whatever the circumstances that caused this terrible event were, it was plain
that it was not connected with the Mormon Church Authority at the time.
Throughout History many attrocities have been committed by members of differing
religious sects against the dictates of their own religions, so why must the
Mormon Church appologize for something that was obviously done without their
The ceremony was nice and I am sure the regrets are all real. To those who want
to press the issue, you can be more constructive by joining the Mountain Meadow
Massacre Foundation and lobbying for federal stewardship. Debating an issue here
is only that and changes nothing.To those that think the church has
compromised enough, usng this blog as a means to "soapbox" their position only
extends and expands the PR nightmare. If it makes you happy, knock yourself out,
but as an activist of several issues, you are offering to much that can be
dedicated to a PDF file. Each side is proving a need to continue this and
neither will ever compromise. I joined MMMF and see constructive
ways to improve the monument site. Its just a suggestion and both sides here
can join. Layering postings here will not change a thing!
To Fly_on_the_wallYou nailed it! I agree with your statement whole
Bill, The Ultiment Apology, Cliffromcalifornia, Ricwhite, and others who belive
as theses, You seam to expect the Church Leaders to take full responsability for
MMM. My queston is do you all expect the same from all envolved in murder,
rape, theft, of early Mormons? Are you taking action to in shure that Missouri,
Ill, & every one ell's involved as well as other churches to apologize for what
happend 150 plus years ago. A good christion would follow what our lord did, he
for gave and for got all the wrongs done to him and others. Let it go you wornt
there. If any of you who clam B.Y. was in volved then send me a e-mail with
Bill, if you are lacking a knowledge of whether our leaders past or present were
inspired. you my friend just like those who perpatrated the acts of violence at
MMM have distanced your self from the power of God that reveals truth. get back
on track.....Facts are--we make mistakes,tragicly, some more haneous
than others. we would do well to list to obey the comforter that inspires
peacable actions than the pridefull,confused, vengefull feelings and actions the
advesary pushes. the Bible and Book of Mormon are repleat with
instances where the pride of the People =(Enemity= hatred and hostility--power
which the Devil wishes to rule over us" Ezra Taft Benson) caused them to not be
in favor with God and as we know their fallen states became evident. were these
biblical bofm prophets any less inspired because of the actions of apostates in
their fold.....? how tragic and sad are such instances as MMM. we
should be ever on guard and know that in a short span of time we can be a Saul
of the world. let us all strive to allow God to speak truth to our souls, and
act with charity and love which the Holy Ghost inspires and end up like Paul and
Alma the Younger...
Bill, your term "scapegoat" isn't entirely accurate, as your ancestor was indeed
involved in the MMM. "Fall guy" would be a more appropriate term. Irrespective
of this, neither you or anyone in your family should have to feel responsible
for the events of 1857, or feel a need to try to shift the blame for what
happened.What we all need to do is learn a very important lesson:
Understanding the consequences of our actions can prevent centuries of emnity
and controversy, particularly if we are representing a group or an ideal.
Sounds to me like the "ancestors" are out for money from the LDS Church. Maybe
they should sue AT&T for not providing Brigham Young with a telephone so he
could have called and not used horses to send his "cease and desist" letter!
Oh, wait, they didn't HAVE telephones then, did they?C'mon people,
get real and get over a very sad event!
We all make mistakes. If Young did not know about it, how can he be blamed. If
local leaders made such decision then how can the Church as a whole be blamed.
Passionate people make mistakes and we should let God deal with the judgement.
Finally, I hope a video (sympathetic to the LDS position) is finally made on the
extradition of LDS folks from their lands and murder of its leaders.
Scott,The documents are extant, especially John D. Lee's own final
confession and account of the MMM.Your alluding to the OT atrocities
is exactly right. Genocide then was just as wrong as the MMM, and all of them
were supposedly justified "in the name of god."If god truly had
ordered all the atrocities committed in his name, then such a god is really a
devil and not worthy of our worship.Instead, I prefer to believe
that those who justify such atrocities in the name of god are liars. That
includes those from the OT, the NT, or even Nephi trying to justify killing a
defenseless, unconscious man (Laban) because "an angel" told him to do it.
Brigham Young ordered the MMM because he wanted federal troops in Utah. Blah
blah blah. Brigham Young kidnapped the Lindberg baby. Blah blah blah. Brigham
Young brought down the Hindenberg. Blah, blah blah. I can't get drunk in Utah
because of Mormons. Blah blah blah. Mormons are bad. Blah blah blah.
As I have studied Church history over the years, I have come to the conclusion
that the Church has been less than honest and forthright in the depiction of
historical events. My thoughts go back to the Legacy film where the suffering of
Church members at Hahn's Mill Massacre were portrayed. The truth is that MMM is
as much a part of our heritage and history as Hahn's Mill. Why hasn't any film
about MMM been produced by the Church to be shown at the Joseph Smith Building
like the Hahn's Mill film? The sad reality of Church history is that more
innocent non-Mormons were killed by Mormons than innocent Mormons being killed
deseret news, you will let bill question the authenticity of leaders but wont
let me point out that mistakes were made by christens under biblical and Bofm
prophets ministries did not make them any less inspired. come on...so much for
fair and balanced.
First of all I would recommend anyone interested should read Juanita Brooks on
the subject. It is probably the most accurate of the several accounts to date.
Blame has to be shouldered by the leadership at the top to some significant
degree because of the attitudes and very inflammatory speeches made earlier by
Brigham Young and especially Apostle George A. Smith in the territory. From a direct descendent of 'Dirty Fingered' Jake, (the name given to Apostle
Jacob Hamblin by John D. Lee), Lee was not just a scapegoat, he was a murderer
like a number of others who escaped trial. Albert Hamblin, Jacob's Indian son,
saw Lee shoot two young women down with his pistola as they were begging for
their lives. The Indians would not kill them because they were too pretty. If it
had not been for Hamblin's testimony Lee might have gotten off as well. One last comment to those who believe this should be a closed chapter
and we should 'move on' I would ask why does the Legacy Theatre at the JSB
continue to portray the evil Missourians persecuting the Prophet, and the Saints
at Haun's Mill and other locations? To say we should ignore what our pioneer
ancestors did but rake the Missourians and others is at best disingenuous.
Get a life People and move on!!!!!!!!!?
Boy! some of you people sure like to see your name in print. Get off your
soap-boxes. Get a life!
To Bill - Whoa....you need to RELAX. I am a descendent of Southern
Utah Pioneers....my grandfather was neighbors with John D. Lee. I agree, John
was made a scapegoat, but to assert that "...the only possible conclusion any
right -thinking person can draw from this is that the leaders of the Mormon
Church are not now, nor ever have been, the divinely inspired, infallible
"prophets,seers and revelators" that they claim to be" is absurd and plain
silly.We ALL fall short and are in need of being forgiven. But to
do that we need first to forgive. It lightens the load.I look at
the action of the Church to see if they are sorry....the money, property bought
to preserve the area of MM attests to a very LOUD silent "I apologize".
As was poinhted out, these men that led the massacre were also civil servants,
so which hats were they wearing ??'Was it the hats of civil servants that
were to uphold the law, or local leaders of the church ??
"Rex" posted this on the other comments:8:39 a.m. Sept. 12, 2007 Either Brigham Young and George A. Smith knew about and condoned the
harassment of the Fancher party or they did not. That must be sorted out by
professional historians and scholars, not by the uninformed opinions of
newspaper readers.What historians and everyone else must agree is
that the LOCAL LDS Church leaders - the Stake President and his counsellors -
are the ones who carried out this horrific murder. That is fact with which
nobody can argue.But the issue is the same either way. The Temple
recommend (and the doctrine of the Church) is that local Church leaders are
"called of God" and they are to be "sustained" and "obeyed."As such,
in one sense it does not really matter whether or not Brigham knew or condoned -
in the final analysis, members MUST NOT BLINDLY FOLLOW THEIR CHURCH LEADERS. And
that runs contrary to what the official Church demands. This is a problem no
matter how you slice it...
"Man will be punished for his own sins and not for Adam's transgressions."
Rich,How stupid can you be? Think about it... Why would Brigham need to
issue such a letter unless he knew that there was some intent to harass the
Fancher party in the first place? Clearly, the local LDS (and militia) leaders
had some sort of communication with Church headquarters in advance of planning
the attack! This includes Goerge A. Smith's visit. The bottom line is that there
is much evidence showing that Church headquarters in Salt Lake City knew that
the Fancer party was going to be harassed in some way, and they failed to stop
Im still waiting for Moses to apologize for that Red Sea massacre. That was
uncalled for; what did we ever do to him?
Yes. You right to say that there is nobody alive today who was involved in this
act.However the SAME EXACT organization is here today. This
so-called church is the same so-called church that existed in 1857. And shame on them.
I am taking the discussions from the elders, and this incident disturbs me. Can
someone please help me answer this question: Why was John D. Lee acquitted first
and then re-tried 20 years later, found guilty, and then executed? That doesn't
make sense to me unless there was some initial coverup by the Salt Lake Church
leaders (Brigham Young) who supposedly investigated the event immediately. Why
did that happen that way?
I thought "Well, for starters" comments were the very best. I laughed out loud!
Thanks for making my day!
Mormon Apologist -- In answer to your question of how the Church could be blamed
for the actions of local leaders, under legal principles, an organization is
accountable for the actions of its agents. If a truck driver drives recklessly
and kills a family in a crash, he's not the only one liable -- the driver's
trucking company employer can also be sued. Even if the organization's
representative is acting outside the scope of his authority (for example, a
Catholic priest molesting parishioners), the organization can be liable if it
failed to supervise or control the representative properly.Under the
circumstances of the 1850s, Brigham Young should have taken precautions against
local leaders taking his fire-and-brimstone, slay-the-invaders rhetoric
literally, and made it clear that Thou Shalt Not Massacre Men, Women, And
I just love how loyal LDS members get on here and defend the fact that leaders
of their church...(regardless of what level of leadership)...made the order to
kill and murder innocent people. The church then, for the next 150 years denied
that it had any responsibility. Now when those of us who have seen and known
this for years, point it out to them, they seem indignant that we would presume
that this is a blemish on their church and religion. It's always an excuse with
Mormonism.... It's either, people are human or it was a miracle or some other
smoke and mirrors.Facts are facts....If you claim your religion is
the only true religion of God and that God's directives are perfect and that he
calls men by the spirit to act in his name, then using an excuse when things
don't go right is a cop out. Either it's perfect or imperfect. It is Mormans
belief that it is perfect and their religion can do no wrong because they are on
God's side. It us Heathans belief that their religion is imperfect and subject
to the inclusion of man's mistakes and that many places in their history,
culture and doctrine, have been tarnished by the human imperfection to the point
that claiming to be "perfect" and only true religion is impossible for us
"Heathans" to swallow.So..if your LDS...either your religion is
"perfect" or it is "imperfect"....which is it?
I have read most of the comments and the article and find it interesting that
people want the Feds to maintain the memorial. I wonder how many have thought to
ask the government what they think of such an idea. Or considered what it might
take to do such a thing. Especially since it is not a national monument. Rocky
is going to need a job soon maybe he can help or better yet leave it alone.It is good to see the church step up once more and take responsibility
now put it to bed.
It looks like the fallout from the MMM continued years beyond 1857 and was not
limited to UtahThe Fancher Party started out in Harrison Arkansas.
The Harrison Daily News, a local Paper, reported today on the 150th anniversary
of MMM. The story decribed how Christopher Carson "Kit" Fancher one of the child
suriviors of MM was returned to Arkansas in 1859. The story told that the
Fancher Family Ranch (in N.W. Ark) was destroyed during the Civil War. The
Fancher clan moved for a time to Texas Hill Country and sat out the war. The
story jumps to 1873 Kit was courting a local girl and Kit's cousin ultimately
won the girls heart. Kit tried to committ suicide, he was gravely wounded His
Aunt tried caring for him but to no avail. He succumbed and is buried in Ark.
age 21 years.It is a shame he did not have parents to help mend his
heart break. Oh darn, they were scattered here and there in MM. To bad he didnt
have a brother he could have had blown of steam to. Oh darn, One of his brothers
made an escape westward on horseback (w/ 2 others) to get help. But was tracked
down and murdered in his sleep (was it the Members of the Cedar City Elders
Quorem or Paiutes?). Jacob Hamlin and Family took care of Kitt Post-MMM until
his return to Ark. What conversations Kitt overheard in that household.I would like to think somebody would recover that body when they are laying
out sub-divisions around the Mesquite area.In a perfect world Kitt
would have grown up in Visalia California working on the Fancher Cattle Ranch.
That ranch was already there waiting from a previous trip. Well, Justice
Modman:You seem to miss the point of films such as The Legacy.
These are not intended to be an all-inclusive account of church history.
Instead such films are for the purpose of allowing others to have their faith
and testimony strengthened by seeing these same qualities in others who gave so
much for the gospel of Jesus Christ.While for those who truely seek
to apply Christ's teachings to the events of MMM, there are many things to
learn, it is obviously not an event that has the same effect as others.The fact that the LDS church does not put the same effort into publicizing the
events of MMM does not mean they are hiding it.Be honest now. How
many of you have had small articles published in small town newspapers, or
school papers, to recognize the accomplishments of your children? But how many
of you go out of the way to publish an article when you have to bail your child
out of jail for a DUI or Breaking and Entering, or when they get three F's in a
semester? What, no one does this? Then why do so many expect this of the LDS
Fair and balanced is Fox News, not Deseret News.
I find the comment "...more inocent non-Mormons were killed by Mormons than
innocent Mormons being killed by non-Mormons" quite interesting. First of all,
killing of either group by either group is, without question, abhorant. But if
you only compare MMM to Hahn's Mill, or other gun battles, you may be correct.
But at least the non-Mormons didn't have to face being forced from their homes
repeatedly in the dead of winter. At least they didn't have to watch their men,
women and children dieing of starvation, freezing, disease and so on. Forced
winter marches, burning their homes, food and killing there livestock in
repeated instances.MMM CANNOT be justified. But if forcing people
to die by other than gun fire is taken into account, I'm afraid that that
statement doesn't hold water. The trail between Nauvoo and Winter Quarters is
littered with the graves of those killed by being force to march in the winter.
And so is the trail from Far West to Quincy.MMM will NEVER be
justified. But, none of the decendents of the mobbers who killed Mormons in
Ohio, Missouri, Illinois, Arkansas, Georgia, and so on have ever been required
to appologize. Nor should they. Those crimes belong to the perpetrators. So, please, consider facts before you speak. I will always ache for
this tragic piece of US history. Right along with the Black Oppression in the
South, the incarceration of Japanese decendents during WWII and the stealing of
Indian lands and much more of injustice.MMM will never be justified.
But it happened, it has been reported both falsely and correctly by all sides.
But none of that will ever change the facts. Nor will it ever justify MMM.
I think it is definitely time for everyone to move on down the trail and leave
Mountain Meadows. With jihadists and die-hard secularists trying to
destroy society as we know it, why spend so much time and energy trying to
relive and come to terms with an unfortunate episode that none of us
experienced?Seems like a unproductive mis-use of time.
Interesting portion of an newspaper report about Illinois' "apology" to the
Church!"Illinois's lieutenant governor, Pat Quinn, presented church
leaders a copy of House Resolution 793, which expressed "official regret" for
the violence and state-sanctioned condemnation that caused the Mormons to leave
in 1846 on the trek that led them to Utah."An earlier draft of the
resolution asked the Mormons for their "pardon and forgiveness," but the
language was weakened at the behest of Illinois lawmakers who said they could
not ask forgiveness for acts they had not personally committed". Does this help to clarify the "wording" of profound regret in the Church
The Church expresses it's regret, which is the right thing to do. I also regret
that MMM occurred, but I don't personally apologize for it. I regret that
African-Americans were once owned as slaves, I regret that we once interred
Japanese Americans because of the paranoia and mistrust that existed in this
country following the attack on Pearl Harbor, but I don't personally apologize
to anyone whose ancestors were victimized by those events. We persist in judging
the actions of the past through the lense of the present day. It's easy to sit
in judgment of those who made mistakes long ago. Would you all be anti-slavery
if you lived in the American south in the 18th century? Would you all be
disgusted with the thought of Japanese-American interrment if you lived on the
west coast in 1942? Would we have such a spirit of blame for those who committed
the atrocities of the MMM if we had lived through the Bogg's extermination order
and the exodus from Nauvoo? I suggest we save our judgment for the current day,
when our current attitudes, values and morals actually have some relevent
The reason that it seems that the Church (and its membership)is being held to
higher standard is that it IS being held to higher standards... higher
standards of forgiveness, honesty and frankness which have not been met in this
lengthy 150 year-long story. We should discuss the lesson of the MMM in our
communities: that no matter how good the people are, under the influence of
zealotry and fear they CAN stumble and commit horrible mistakes.The
apology was needed. Anything less isn't good enough for the Lord's church or
The AP is reporting that LDS spokesman, Mark Tuttle, has said that the MMM
statement was NOT an apology, but expression of profound regret. This should
correct any erroneous belief or claim that Elder Eyring, on behalf of the
Church, was apologizing for the MMM (as the title to this news article states).
regret >verb (regretted, regretting) feel or express sorrow, repentance, or
disappointment over. >noun 1 a feeling of sorrow, repentance, or
disappointment. 2 (often one's regrets) used in polite formulas to express
apology or sadness.For those who just cannot get over the word
"apology" or "sorry" look what the dictionary says for regret. Come on people
how much more do you want. This is an apology, but like I said for some it will
never be enough.
I think that it is about time these morman people start taking responsibility
for taking over this land the way that they did!!! I don't think that they are
sincre in what they had to say about taking the LIVES of these WOMEN, CHILDREN,
AND MEN who were in a sense just like them. Trying to move and make a life for
themselves. Free Utah from mormans. This state was founded before they came
here not when thier god gave them the rights to do any and everything to take
over this land.
Consider the following:1. NO ONE will get away with anything in this life
- Jesus Christ will make sure of that. Regardless of the number of times John
D. Lee and others were/were not tried, they will have to face the Savior and
give a personal accounting of their actions, as will we all.2. Members of
the LDS Church are not perfect, but strive to emulate the example of Christ.
Unfortunately, the MMM is a tragic and colossal failure by local LDS leaders to
do so.3. Our understanding of the events that happened 150 years ago is
SEVERELY limited and subject to rampant speculation (on all sides). See item
#1.4. Despite the imperfections of its members, the LDS Church is not
I thought the Bible taught to forgive 70 x 7. Is there something I missed that
says we have to apologize 70 x 7?
I'm sorry the MMM occurred. I love all of you whether you are members or not,
and I appreciate you taking the time to respond to this sad event in history
May God bless each of you and your families. After all these years forgiveness
still seems to be the hardest thing to do. I know the time will come when this
will be a resolved issues and hearts will be softened. I just don't know if it
will happen before the Savior returns. I pray it does. When one truly let's an
issue go they will find peace and comfort in their heart.
Get over it all of you. It is history, the past not the present. What I see
hear is the same thing as blaming a company for producing an item then when
another person uses it in the wrong manner trying to blame to company that
manufactured it. Everyone is responsible for their own actions. The miltary
gives orders to soldiers to follow, if the order is illegal you are not to
follow it, but take it to a higher authority. But even if an order is given you
can chose to follow or deny. By the sounds of this an order to cease and not to
harrass these immegrants arrived to late and those locally decided to take
matters into their own hands. This clearly says to me that the local leaders
(whether church or state or military) are to blame not the general church
leaders (especially if they sent work not to harrass).But I wonder that if
they had had faster communications (internet or even radio communications) back
then would the scenario had turned out differently. I think so by what I have
heard about the church and there history. For Americas history has also been
tainted by things done in the past to other countries and even to religious
groups such as the Mormons.
George Fisher, I appreciated your comments. Thank you for your fair
accessment.I have many Mormon friends, and admire their sincerity and hard
work. I have studied their scriptures and their leadership's teachings to
better understand their religion.One thing that stands out. When things
go wrong....when prophesies do not occur....its always blamed on the 'faithful
followers.' The leadership nevers takes responsiblity.... even among their own.
Why do you suppose that is?
Bill, JD Lee Descendant: JDL did alot of wonderful things in the history of the
Church. That's why it's so hard to explain his actions at MM. Check your
history, my friend, your ancestor did not tell the truth to Brigham Young when
he reported to him before October 1857 conference. Wilford Woodruff was at this
meeting and recorded "tales of awful blood". It wasn't till the following year
that BY began to get the real story.
I find it amazing that so many Mormons all but DEMAND that the victims of MMM
and their families - or anyone who feels wronged by the Church or one of its
members - "just get over it" "forgive" - how convenient to preach forgiveness as
something your victims must do to you! And how utterly unChristian and
absurd!At least the current LDS Church leaders have recongized the
need for - if not an apology, at least a statement of "regret". Why don't the
members of the Church follow their leaders on this point?!
apologize verb To make excuse for or regretful acknowledgment of a fault
or offense.sorry-feeling regret, compunction, sympathy, pity,
etc.Lawyers carfully word statments all the time. Appearing to say
somthing is no substitute for actually saying it.
K Jarr - To your response concerning other religions not having to
apologize for their members as much as the LDS religion, how closed minded can
you get? We could name specifics all day long about what religion did what
wrong, but in reality...religious leaders who apologize, do it because they
personally care or because their members care enough to issue an apology. Do not
critize those who apologize, critize those who don't. Some people are
unbelievable in how narrow-minded they are.
Wow, the LDS church does a noble act and still there is that reach to find
negativity even in that!I miss my beautiful home state but I don't miss
the anti-Mormon sentiment that rears its head every chance it gets. So many of
these messages are filled with hate. To those that carry those negative
feelings, that is your burden. Somehow and someway I hope you will soften your
This is one of the historic evidences thatThe Church of Jesus Christ of
Latter Day Saints' members were not guided by a prophet of the universal g-d.Assesination of human beings have been an intrinsic part in the evolution of
christian democratic capitalistic nations, as well as socialistic nations.The mormon church has nothing special. Its power resides in the amount of
wealth it has.It is just another USA corporation.
As a member of the Daughters of the Utah Pioneers I am proud of my heritage. I
am saddened by the awful things that have happened throughout history. But I do
not consider myself responsible for every evil or unfair act that has happened.
I believe we need to take responsibility for doing/being good citizens despite
differences. I nearly lost 3 grandfathers at Hahn's Mill. A son, his father and
his father-in-law. Only one survived.Get on with being the 'best
you' you can be.
As a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, I do not blindly
follow my leaders but I prayerfully consider their counsel. As far as the MMM,
Heavenly Father will hand out his judgements in due time. The Church of Jesus
Christ of Latter-day Saint's eternal plan is perfect. Our members are human and
imperfect...some more imperfect than others. If everyone in the world would live
by the Church's standards, we could have peace. Non-believers will always find
fault with the Church itself....(we love you anyway). Our current leaders in
the Gospel are mortal men who are doing their best and they ARE inspired of
God.......Pres. Hinckley is a marvel at 97 years of age. Trust in yourselves and
pray for guidance to do what is the right thing. It is great that we can have
these discussions though......just hope we can all love each other dispite our
Christopher,That still does not explain why John D. Lee was
originally acquitted and then, 20 years later, re-tried and executed. Did it
take 20 years to get the real facts?Moreover, if you are correct,
why would the LDS Church restore John D. Lee's Priesthood blessings in 1961?
[April 20, 1961, the First Presidency and the Council of Twelve Apostles of
the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints met in joint council, and: "It
was the action of the Council after considering all the facts available that
authorization be given for the reinstatement to membership and former blessing
to John D Lee." Word of this was sent out to members of the family, and on May 8
and 9, the necessary ordinances were performed in the Salt Lake Temple. A
complete record is in the files of the Latter-day Saints Genealogical Society.
It is much easier to explain and understand MMM than it is to do the same for
all the anti-Mormon hate that is expressed in these blogs. My heart aches for
all you who hurt so. Beleive in Jesus Christ and you will find rest.
Dear Forgive? I am sorry your heart aches, I am sorry someone has caused you so
much pain that you can not see what a wonderful thing forgiveness and repentance
is. I am sorry that you feel that Mormons or anyone else is demanding you to
forgive others. I just hope you and others like you can open your heart and not
be so angry inside. Mormons are not demanding you forgive. You have the free
agency to be as happy or as miserable as you like.
If Brigham Young was a prophet he should have known what what was going to
happen and stopped it. Atrocities are not events we just get over, ie 9/11,
Pearl Harbor, Slavery, Holocaust). If the a Church needs to apologise 7 times
70 (I think thats some where in the Bible)) just do it and learn from the awful
Does Nospinhere really think it's easier to explain the brutal slaughter of 120
unarmed men, women, and children and the terrible coverup after the fact such
that all but one perpetrator received no punishment than it is for people to
dislike a particular religion?I'm an active LDS member but I find
that claim hard to fathom.
A little perspectiv:November 29, 1864 - Massacre at Sand Creek Colonel Chivington, a sometimes Methodist minister, leads a troop of
volunteers and soldiers to Black Kettle's camp at Sand Creek with the sole
purpose of killing peaceful Indians. They kill 105 Indian women and children and
28 men, many standing together under a U.S. and a white flag. Afterward, they
mutilated the bodies horribly and wore the severed parts on their saddles and
their hats.July 1865 - General Patrick Conner organizes 3 columns of
soldiers to begin an invasion of the Powder River Basin, from the Black
Hills, Paha Sapa, to the Big Horn Mountains. They had one order: "Attack and
kill every male Indian over twelve years of age." Conner builds a fort on the
Powder River. End of August 1865 - Battle of Tongue River Connor's
column destroys an Arapaho village, including all the winter's food supply,
tents and clothes. They kill over 50 of the Arapaho villagers. http://www.hanksville.org/daniel/timeline2.htmlAnd, oh yes--Is this the
same Federal Government that is being proposed to take over the MM Memorial
Nospinhere,What tripe. Just because someone expresses the idea that
your Church's leaders are not "the mouthpiece of g-d" does not constitute
"hate". It is the self-righteous, condescending, patronizing posture you take
that is so annoying. Just because you are a Mormon does not make you better than
others, nor does it mean that you will be saved and others will be damned.
People wouldn't have such feelings about the Mormons if you would stop sending
your missionaries out to tell everyone that they are wrong and deceived and need
to repent and join YOUR church in order to be saved. You do not have the
copyright on Jesus' salvation.
Nospinhere's definition of antimorom, "anyone who sees things differently from
them, looks objectively at facts, or brings up information that is historically
Well, Mr Elder not of the Church, If that is truly the case then the Mormons
have apologized and it is now time for the forgiveness and time to move on. My
family tree is full of Cajuns. No one really knows their history or cares how
they got dumped in the swamps and left to die. We have only tried to survive and
then better ourselves. We have never begged for someone to apologize. Every
family tree has a history of some terrible thing that was done to them. Get over
it and move on. The world is about LEARNING from the past and moing on to the
future by making a BETTER world. No forgiveness only festers and makes things
worse, not better. God loves ALL his children, black, white, green or purple,
etc. He loves Africans, Americans, Mexicans, American Indians, Orientals, etc.
Why don't we unite as one big family and try loving one another rather than
holding on to old grudges. You want to see some terrible things then go back
through American history and study what was not only done to the blacks, but the
Mexicans, the American Indians, The Japanese, etc, etc. It's time to unite and
If you read the history a little more careful there is a big difference in war
and killing unarmed travelers who surrendered their weapons. Was Utah and
Mormons at war with Arkansas?
It is not a matter of the LDS Church being right and everyone else being wrong.
It is that, according to the LDS Church, there is only one truth, and that the
fullness of the gospel has been restored. EVERYONE who has ever lived, or will
live, will have the opportunity to learn it, and decide for themselves wether or
not to accept it. That will happen in this life, or the next. The Lord will
judge what constitutes an opportunity.Other religions all teach
truth, and the people that live according to them will live good lives and be
good people. Almost every convert to the LDS church has already learned much of
the gospel by being a member of a christian religion.
All of you "historian's" quoting history from what your church publishes as
history is a joke. You are sadly being misled to believe what they want you to
believe.As far as an apology goes...they didn't offer one. They
expressed regret - I'm sure they have had their legal team work on that one for
quite a while.Now if those same spin doctors could work on all the
other ghosts in the closet, maybe that church could come clean with some of the
other ugly things in their past.
How is it possible to unite? Christians teach Jesus is God's only begotton Son,
Mormonism teaches Jesus and Satan were brothers? Christianity says Jesus rose
from the grave, Islam says He didn't die and wasn't raised. I think you may
have problem trying to get everyone to unite but honesty might create come some
healthy commuication.Christian boy
Again, makes no sense. That would imply that the Islam religion was at "war"
with the American people when they acted against unarmed civilians on 9/11. I think the main point that most are making in this blog is, DO NOT
group all Mormons, Americans, Utahns, Islams, or any other secular division into
one sterotype. This isn't rocket science people.
yeah get rid of it , no one who signed it is alive so why go on with it and
start with the plymouth rockers for sure! I wasn't there but I do like george
and he is over 150 years old.
For those who hate the Mormon Church you must be humble yourself,Pray and ask
The Lord to forgive you for everything you have done,no one knows what was
happend in those days only The Lord knows.He created this earth and every things
in it,even us.So forgive and forget and move on life is to short.
IT's all about MoneyIt will come down to Money.Wait and see
Hay No Spin Don't get your shorts in a wad.I don't think that I am any better
that you. Life is to short to hate and state your distain toward the LDS
church.You say that because "someone expresses the idea" about our leaders makes
it hate. Your discourse sure sounds like you hate everything about the LDS
church its programs, missionary efforts, and people.You sound like you have a
lote on your plate to digest. If you would just clear your mind take a deep
breath you would feel so much better about the world.
Watch the movie 'September Dawn'. Or Kracker's book on this unavoidable issue.
Its tough. I don't know if I could forgive, but the Lord says forgive.God bless the Indians and the harmed.
There sure is a lot of anti-LDS sentiment out there today. I could tell from
the first few postings that this thread was going to be a waste of time but I
decided to post my 2-bits anyway...- Those who predicted an apology
wouldn't matter were right. No minds were changed. - Many of those
asking for apologies were just being rhetorical. If you give them the apology
they asked for, they will either not accept it (not good enough, not sincere
enough, nothing new, doesn't go far enough, just PR, etc) or they will just ask
you to apologise for the next thing on their list that bugs them about you. YOU
can't please them.I hope some day we can all find peace and move on.
MMM is an important topic but this debate over the apology isn't important.
Those who were saying, "If the church would just apologise for MMM I
would open my doors to them", were not being honest. Those who are anti before
will be anti after an apology. That's the way bigotry works, whether it's
religious-bigotry, racial-bigotry, gang-rivalry or whatever. If you feel you
have a grievence against a group (like a church) you just keep pumping it up and
keep asking the group you hate to apologise for whatever is bugging you. But
once hate is established apologies can't fix it. It's in your heart and no
apology from the one you hate can fix it. Only you can fix it. Problem is, you
would have to let go of the hate to fix it, and that rarely happens after hate
has been established and nurtured in your heart.I know this sounds
like a lecture but I hope it is taken in the spirit it is given.
Dear No Spin?, Have you ever actually listened to a missionary? Mormons do not
believe that they will be saved and all others will be damned. Missionaries do
not tell anyone they need to join the church to be saved. Every one of us has
something to repent of, there is no harm in trying to help someone be a better
person. No one claims that the leaders are "infallible," only God is perfect.
The religion is not "perfect" as it is run by imperfect human-beings who though
they try to do their best, are sometimes wrong, or misled, self-righteous,
pious, or uneducated. None are perfect or claim to be. God and His plan is
perfect, though people are not always great at interpreting His will. If you do
not believe that the Prophet is "the Prophet," then don't join the church.
Leave every other person to make their own decisions. If everyone spent as much
time trying to build themselves up as they do trying to tear others down, this
world would be a much better place. I am sorry that there are people in the
world, both now and in our past that have made terrible choices. I am sorry
that people have committed reprehensible acts. I am sorry that others cannot
forgive something that did not even happen to them. I am sorry for children who
lost parents, in all situations. But, I am not responsible for those things.
It is my responsiblity to be the best human-being I can be, as it is the
responsibility of all of us. Why do you care so much about a religion that you
obviously don't believe. Leave them alone, believe what you want to, do the
things you think are good. Live and Let Live.
Bill : BY knew the whole story by 1859--but wasn't going to "bring up the case"
without being pressed by the US Government. By that time the civil war was
iminent and all involved hoped the MM would "just go away". Arkansas decendants
tried to get the attention of Washington (even took 2 young children to DC to
testify), but by this time it was low priority. JDL was acquitted by an all
Mormon jury during the first trial and additional damaging testimony was used at
the 2nd trial to convict him.As for JDL blessings restored, frankly I can't
comment publicly on this, as there is alot to the story that you might not be
aware. Hey, I have studied all the good that JDL did--but this single act can
not be explained.
Amy Bjorge: What's wrong with crosses! They were put up by the various
decendant organizations anyway.
Bill.....kinda cocky I'd say. That you know the history better than anyone? Some
people do this for a living you know..........
Wow, 128 comments! Is this really the best use of our time? Let those who
patronize the trib waste away their hours in emotional attacks/defense.
In the comment from George Fisher an old bishop at 10:19 a.m. Sept. 12, 2007 One last comment to those who believe this should be a closed chapter and we
should 'move on' I would ask why does the Legacy Theatre (Theater) at the JSB
continue to portray the evil Missourians persecuting the Prophet, and the Saints
at Haun's Mill and other locations? To say we should ignore what our pioneer
ancestors did but rake (make) the Missourians and others is at best
disingenuous.Well, Hauns Mill was an illegal action inflicted on
people who were members of the Church only because they were members of the
Church and in the hope that said action would lead people to leave the Church
and/or not join the Church. That doesnt justify murder or the fact that the
murderers at Hauns Mill were not brought to justice. Plus, the State was
culpable in that the Missourians knew that in actions against the LDS Church, no
one was ever prosecuted and never would be. Thats why a state government has
given an apology for the law which was still on their books up to the time when
the apology was issued.
I can never quite understand why so many seem to have so much time or desire
that they spend deriding, mocking, tearing down, making personal attacks, on a
Church, its leaders, its history, its people, its doctrine, etc. If
I choose to be a Catholic, a Hindu, a Lutheran, a Muslim, a Mormon, a Baptist,
an agnostic, an atheist, or anything else, that is my choice. If I am
disenchanted, upset with, don't like the rules, don't believe the doctrine, find
out something I don't like or am upset about someone, or my particular group, I
can walk away, join some other group, or join none, and live as happily or
unhappily as I choose. There is too much to do in life to then make it my
mission or my life work to make a person or the Church/group they choose to
affiliate themselves with believe the way I do, or if they do not to insult or
engage them in meaningless, pointless tirades.As far as John D. Lee
having his 'blessings' restored - if you believe the Mormon Temple and its
ceremonies is just another one of the false doctrines of the Mormon Church, or
anything else, it doesn't count! Even if he was given these 'blessings' back -
it won't count if the Mormon Church isn't true! God will sort it all out!So -
no need to worry.
I think the memorial itself was more than a sufficient admission and apology.
No further mea culpas are necessary. BUTThe State of
Utah not the LDS church? Brigham Young as Governor not as the head of the LDS
church? It is difficult to separate the LDS chuch from the State of
Utah today, to say they were completely separate 150 years ago is a shameless
disingenous excuse or anti-apology.
What I dont get is this............Why are all of you questioning your Prophet?
You say the Church doesnt need to apologize but the Church and Prophet feel
compelled that an apology is warranted. So why do you question his authority? It
appears the only true Christian in this matter is indeed Mr. Hinckley himself.
MMM was a heartless murdering of innocent people. Anyone who says different is
an anti, by those who obvious are anti- anti-s. But aren't we all loving no
wonder the world is not impressed by our messages.
Your problem is lack of information, Mormons didn't give the land to the
families of Arkansas relative and make it a memorial. They put up their own
momument for the families. Thats like Islam militants making shrine for the
hummers they have blown up and our soldiers they have killed. You think that
would make a acceptible apology?
what verse in the Book of Mormons tell us to apologize and then to tell the
offend person or persons to get over it? I forgot I know its in there!
Even war crimes have be punished, and families given compensation for the pain
and suffering their families have endured. But I think a memorial ought to do
the trick, so get over it.
Personaly, I don't think that the Church should have had to apologize for the
MMM. It was 150 yrs ago and circumstances were different then. Sorry that it
The feeling that this happened 150 years ago and that we now are not to blame
carries some resonance. However, when you consider the thousands of innocent
people killed during the "shock and awe" during the first attack against Iraq,
and the litany of incompetent/immoral/inhumane decisions made later by our
leaders in Wahshington that led to hundreds of thousands of deaths, the fact
that a majority of Utah Mormons still support our president causes one to
wonder. Perhaps the issue that remains is whether church leaders and membership
have still failed to learn much about the value of life that events of 150 years
ago should have taught.
danny's mistake,If the Islam militants made the Shrine because they
had ended all aggression and had stopped the killing and apologized that the
shrine would be very appropriate. There are shrines in Germany and Japan made
for us, by people who fought against us and they are very appropriate.
Especially when it means the end of a war. I do not think that
Mormons have repeated that act in 150 years. I do think that alone shows the
change of heart.
What I find the saddest is how much energy is spent on this topic. It was a
very tragic, unjust, horrible chapter of Utah history. I wasn't there and the
truth will probably never be known because every account is someone's own
perception and open to arguement. I wish I could change it - I can't. I wish I
could help the decendants heal - I can't, they will have to find that peace
themselves. The biggest problem now is not letting the events of 150 years ago
consume us. No one is perfect or will ever be perfect. This single issue is a
good example of why there is so much hate in the world. We all need to take
responsibility for ourselves and pray we don't do harm to the people around us,
but if we do it is between us, the law and God.
Those who did those horrendous acts were acting outside of their spirirtual
principles. No one today is responsible for what happened over 150 years
ago--even being a memember of the same Church, no matter what position one may
hold, none are responsible. Those may apologize to help calm the rift, though
none of us are responsible still. Neither are all Catholics responsible for the
issues priests have caused, nor are all Christians responsible for the Crusades
or the Holocaust, neither all whites responsible for slavery. Missourians today
aren't responsible for kicking out my ancestors from their state, I'm not
responsible for my Grandpa giving your Grandpa a wedgie when they were kids,
sorry I'm not responsible. The most the church can do is apologize on behalf of
those that have passed on. If any of you still have an axe to grind over this
that is your burden. Have a good day!
Whew. Didn't have time to read all the posts. Obviously this one is a touchy
subject.I think I probably echo some of you above when I say that
you who take offense at this "non-apology" or "not-quite-acceptable apology"
probably have your fingers in your ears and are sing-songing "LA, LA, LA, LA...
I can't HEAR YOU" while the "apology" is being given. I strongly doubt anything
could possibly make you feel better about the church or its actions to
memorialize those awful events 150 years ago.'Nuff said.
Sorry, I was reading this and then I went to Camille Cleverley's stories and
posted in the wrong place. Here is what I wanted to say here. What I
don't understand is if the LDS church is the "one true church" (actually all of
them seem to think they are) then why doesn't God step in and resolve this. Why
didn't God step in in 1857 and stop the murder before it started? I know the
Mormons were mistreated in Missouri etc. by a bunch of other superstitious nuts
and that was not nice either. But God could have prevented it all. Why not? Why did God not stop Camille Cleverley's fall? That't what really hurts.
Maybe, just maybe, there is no god. Ever consider that?
I simply looked at the number of postings and am amazed - You all have waaaaaay
too much time. Go do something that actually adds value to society...wow!
AMUSED...THANK YOU, THAT SAYS IT ALL!!!!!!!
Christian Boy, Just want to say that I don't understand why people from
different Christian backgrounds can not all believe in the SAME Savior even if
we view things different from one another. I was not born in Utah but I was born
into a family that was a very prominant other Christian religion. My father just
happened to marry a Mormon. My mother taught me from a young age to never
disrespect another religion or another's religious beliefs. She also invited me
to check out other churches and compare them to the LDS religion. I am firm in
my faith and have a very strong belief that you should also be allowed to
believe what you want in the way you understand it. Yes, the LDS church states
that Satan was in the pre-existance and that he was also a child of God. I have
siblings who made very wrong choices. That does not mean they are not my
siblings. So, why would you make a statement that it is bad for us to believe
that Satan is a child of God who made bad choices. Obviously you need to
understand my religion a little better and you should respect my right to
believe as I choose. I have checked out other churches and am very happy with my
choice. Your statement seemed very condecending and even the people who believe
in Islam I conside my brothers and sisters. The same as with other races. Some
of my dearest friends are from other religions and also from many different
races. I even have a black friend who calls me Aunt. We need to have tolerance
and Christians do need to unite! Forgive each other and move on!!
Amazing how much some holier than thou Mormons cry "tolerance" when it is their
founder who was intolerant and declared that God told him all the other Churches
were/are "abominations." If you Mormons truly believe in tolerance and allowing
everyone to believe as they please, then stop sending those annoying clone
missionaries around knocking on my door and confronting me on the street!
Rude, negative statements have never accomplished anything good. I feel sorry
for you. I pray for you dear friend
Wow, 148 responses and maybe five are neutral.Don't mind me, just
passin' through. I'm off to the BYU v. UofU blog where responses are reasoned
Just have the Profit of God say we did it, and we are sorry. After all, it was
just about territory.
John 18:10Then Simon Peter having a sword drew it, and smote the
high priest's servant, and cut off his right ear. The servant's name was
Malchus.Terrible things can be committed by adherents without the
Leader of the Church being responsible.
maybe you need to listen and hear what is being said, Jesus said you are of you
father the devil... He said we are not all God's children. He said that not I,
your beef is with Him don't take everything personal and do what He says search
the scriptures (John 5:39)
"I feel sorry for you and I pray for you", are expression of unforgiveness and
resentment. Check with anyone in the field of psychology they will share with
you that is making a person continue to pay for a wrong done. More of a tongue
and cheek than turning the cheek.
Read the whole account Jesus himself made sure there was a sword Luke 22:37-37.
and your point? He also after that told them to put away the sword and healed
Malchus, giving evidence to even his enemy he was the Messiah
You are all weird...(Oh... and I feel hate, love, anger,
forgiveness, blame, confusion, fear, the spirit, satan, historical, hurt,
mislead, truthiness and blessed...)Now I feel weird too. I need to
go do the dishes...Where's Nugo???
I know that God does exist and He or one of his angels saved my life in a
accident. I never knew why my life was spared and others are not. We will not
be judged on how we die but how we lived. If we can learn to live peacefully
with each other and love each other we have a better chance of being judged as a
good person. I believe that it is easy to get carried away and commit evil acts
when others are doing it but that does not mean that God does not exist or that
he does not care.God cannot control our actions without removing
some or all of our free agency and that is the reason why evil is not prevented.
We have the free agency to commit evil acts, but that will determine our
judgment after our time on earth has ended.Even spiritual leaders of
all faiths have free agency to do evil.
Sorry, Greetings from AZ II, I just can't bring myself to forgive you for your
grandpa giving my grandpa a wedgie when they were kids! It's still just too
devastating to my psyche. Oh, the inhumanity!!!!It might help
though if you grovelled a bit more...
I was out minding my own business in my psychology field when someone out of the
blue asked me if saying "I feel sorry for you and I will pray for you" was an
expression of unforgiveness and resentment, and I told them no, why no it's
not...Then I smote him and stole his sneakers...I had to
wash his name off them (he had written jimmy like 100 times on them everywhere)
but I sure am jumping higher...
I did not have time to read all the comments, but I do want to reference one
trend I noticed -- claiming that if something happened years ago, there is no
need to apologize or rectify it. That certainly is not true. For example,
the fact there are no slave owners alive today does not mean American society is
not still deeply effected by its history of slavery. African Americans still
suffer incredible deficits due to slavery and racism. Instead of ignoring that
reality, we should be doing everything we can to eliminate it. If your
ancestors caused a problem and you benefitted from the abuse, you have a duty to
make amends.BTW, I know the Mormons eventually decided that black
men were human enough to be priests. But, did they ever issue an apology for
their long (and some would say continuing) history of racism?
Someone ought to get ahold of this Malchus guy. They're selling a right ear on
e-bay right now...$3.18 and closes at midnight...
You can talk all you want about the MMM, but I can't have you bad mouthing the
United States of America. A lot of good people of all races that I personally
knew died for your right to tear down the flag. Just remember that next time
you want to drag Old Glory through the mud.
Seems today that glutonous society sues or wants compensation for every mistake
anyone makes at any time. I bet each relative of this tragedy won't be happy
until they are given a piece of the site to own and a cool million in each of
their pockets. Get over it you silly, critical, begrudging nincompoops. This
has to be one of the longest grudges ever, considering all kinds of tragedies
that have happened in every Christian church and beyond in the entire world.
Funny how people who weren't even there at the time expect apologies from people
who also weren't there. Get a life.
My suggestion is that we just get used to the fact that this is how it is and it
will continue. After all Laman and Lemuel are sitting somewhere, still mad at
Nephi for taking what "rightly belonged to them", if you want to know how long
things like this will last, read the Book of Mormon and see when the Lamanites
stopped hating the Nephites for what Nephi did. Or maybe you could go back and
see how Satan is still brewing over losing out in the pre - existence, and that
saga continues..... My suggestion is to be kind, and go on with our lives doing
the best we can. The best way to put out a fire is not to fan it. If we can't
put it out, at least don't jump into it.
we once put out a fire with a water hose. maybe not the best way, but worked
faster than "not fanning it"...
Great analogy. To anyone who is an descendant of one of those slain
in the MMM:I am truly sorry that it happened. I am disgusted that
men did it who belonged to my church even though they lived long long ago.If anyone wishes to blame Brigham Young, the fact is you don't know if
he was involved. All you do know is that doing something like that would be
totally out of character for him, church doctrine, and church policies.Again this happened long long ago. Everyone is sorry it happened and no one
alive today is responsible.
Didn't the church say that it's not an apology. I'm not being biased but I also
don't think the Church owe anybody an apology on this matter. Personally, if you
want to really look at history that way, I think the US government owe the
Church more apologies that the Church owing anybody. The Church, to me and
according to my reasearch and knowledge, is perfect on matters of this nature.
It appears to me that being a Mormon is alot like being an SUV. It is the only
type of vehicle that is singled out when something happens.
It's called free agency...something that God will not take away from us.
As a descendant of the MMM survivors, I have followed literature on the event
for the past 50 years. I am pleased that the LDS Church has acknowledged its
part as best as could be done in our litigious times. Remarks about the churchs
internal problems are of no value to me. All groups, whether official or ad hoc,
have issues that strengthen and weaken them the inevitable result of human
interaction. My late father telling me about his relative,one of the
surviving children, exculpated his feelings about the Mormon Church. Im not a
Mormon, but I have Mormon friends and acquaintances, and have listened to the
majestic choir practicing truly a gift to the world - and I admire the churchs
social/welfare programs and its young peoples missions that teach the values of
charity and community. Every church has good and bad, just like every person has
good and bad. We try; thats all we can do. Thank God for Hope. The rest I leave
for Judgment Day - that's when the good times will roll.
My great great grandfather was a LDS member of the church who was beaten almost
to death for providing food to a member of the immigrant train. He maintained
to his death over 30 years later that it was the local LDS membership who
slaughtered the people. He would be happy that someone took responsibility and
acknowledged fault. That being said, I am NOT LDS. I do not feel that the
current leadership of the LDS church owes descendants of the survivors an
apology any more than I feel that the US Government owes descendants of slaves a
living. History is history. The people involved owe each other apologies. I
am, however, glad to see that the LDS church is no longer taking the ostrich
stance on this matter. It did occur, it was horrific, people continued to be
punished by the LDS church for years if they spoke up about it. It should not
have been kept a secret then.
Barbara...Mormons can be as tolerant or as intolerant as your average garden
variety "Born-Again-Christian".In my neck of the woods in Washington
State, we see Mormon Missionaries coming around about once every couple of
months or so, because the Elders rely mostly upon member referrals.But we DO get the Jehovah's Witnesses walking up our street at least once, and
sometimes twice a week.Posting "No Trespassing" and "No Soliciting"
signs...hasn't discouraged them.Annoying? Yes. But we are polite
anyway, and we thank them for their interest, and let them know we are happy
with our own religious beliefs.Sometimes if it is hot, we invite
them to sit in our garden with us, and enjoy some ice water, or lemonade.We have made many new friends in this way, even though they have come to
understand that we are not going to join their faith.And as for the
garden-variety-Born-Agains...every time we go to our favorite Oriental Market to
do some shopping, we are confronted by 'Christian' men and women handing out
invitations to worship at their Church.They smile as we walk toward
them, hold up their invitations, and ask if we are Christians, and they ask
which Church we belong to. When we reply, their smiles are replaced
with frowns, they withdraw the invitations they are holding up, and they simply
turn their backs on us.Annoying, but not faith-shattering.Barbara...when those annoying young Mormons knock on your door, or approach
you on the street...try following the admonition of the Savior, who asked us to
love one another...as HE has loved us.Smile, thank them for their
efforts to share their message of His gospel, and tell them you are happy with
your own faith.Wish them well...and walk away.
mloumlou,Thank you for your great comment. Hopefully we can all
take a lesson from you. God bless.JMG
Jim O...apparently you've never heard of Brigham Young's teachings regarding
Blood Atonement, or the Temple Oath of Vengeance for the blood of the Prophet
Joseph Smith and his brother, Hyrum.
I hope people reading these threads dont get discouraged toward apologies :).
JayeG- I want to personally thank you for your kindness. I
personally can attest that on those long hot days those glasses of water &
lemonade are worth their weight in gold.
How is it for the "get over it" crowd they have this doctrine to be able to
judge when enough time is expired for folks to greive over tragedies. Does
mormom have the golden watch that went away with the golden tables that allows
them to tell us when we should get over the Murders of relatives and
confiscation of property like hill's AFB from my Grandfather who was
excommunicated because of his distain for the continual changing of the Book of
Mormons? Amazing, is it 5 years,10,50,100 or can you tell me when we need to
tell those folks in NYC to get over the bombing...somebodies who wasn't even
envolved is sorry and they should get over it...O the mystries of Mormonism
If everyone who spend a minute writing on this subject would contribute 10 cent
a minute to the worthy cause maybe some good would come out of this. You might
send it to "get a life foundation"
Orson Kimball and George Fisher both quoted from historical texts concerning
MMM. Those quotes are directly contradicted by other historical documents. As a descendant of both JDLee and others who participated I have read almost
everything available on the subject including many private journals.
Revisionist historians are now writing books and choosing which accounts to
believe... it cannot be done. It is all speculation as to what the Fancher
party/Missouri Wildcats did to evoke such anger - why the military leaders gave
the order to leave noone alive to bring an army from California; that they would
have to fight a war on two fronts - what the individual participants felt as
they followed their orders to kill the Fancher group without any losses on their
part - if JDLee's family was threatened with death if he did not participate -
if he actually killed anyone at MM (he was there but claimed his gun misfired) -
the sad circumstances of his families and ranches being robbed after his
excommunication... it is all speculation. Had I been there I might also have
"done my duty"... but none of us were there, and none of us know the hearts of
the participants on either side.
"This is an emotional experience for me", said President Hinckley. "I come aspeacemaker. This is not a time for recrimination or the assignment of blame.
No one canexplain what happened in these meadows 142 years ago. We may
speculate, but we do notknow. We do not understand it. We cannot
comprehend it. We can only say the past is longsince gone. It cannot be
recalled. It cannot be changed. It is time to leave the entirematter in
the hands of God, who deals justly in all things. His is a wisdom far beyondour own."President Hinckley continued:" I sit in the chair that
Brigham Young occupied asPresident of the Church at the time of the
tragedy. I have read very much of the historyof what occurred here. There
is no question in my mind that he was opposed to whathappened. Had there
been a faster means of communication, it never would have happenedand
history would have been different. That which we have done here must never beconstrued as an acknowledgment on the part of the Church of any complicity in
theoccurrences of that fateful and tragic day. But we have an obligation.
We have a moralresponsibility. We have a Christian duty to honor, respect,
and to do all feasible toremember and recognize those who died here."
Wow, quite a debate. We could be here all day... oh wait, We've already been at
this for TWO days. The problem is nobody is going to win. The facts are this:
120 people were killed. Was it a tragedy and should not have happened? Yes. Was
it perpetrated by Mormons? Yes. Was it an order by Brigham Young? No. I don't
think people necessarily blame the LDS church for the massacre, I beleive they
are angry at them for the cover up and deceitful actions of the Mormon leaders
of the time, after the massacre occurred. And us Realists (aka
Atheists/Anti-Mormons), want nothing more than to prove that the Mormons acted
badly and the are not as perfect as some may think. Which in this case, is
obviously true. Although, at the time the cover up and lies make sense to me.
Facing an invasion by US troops the cover-up was the way to go. Why give the US
government even more of a reason to come and take the state of Utah out of
Mormon control? I beleive people are ultimately responsible for their actions.
As much as you'd like to blame it on the Church or Brigham Young, in this case
you just can't. Just because they were Mormons, it's not the fault of the LDS
church. Hitler was also a Catholic, that doesn't mean the Pope sent him orders
to exterminate the Jews. Let's be open minded here and choose another battle
with better facts to argue over. Although it's entertaining, this has gone way
too far off topic.
To Voice of Reason,Not a bad summary, but at least one error that
needs to be corrected. The analogy with Hitler being Catholic is a false
analogy, and reveals the error most people posting on this blog have been
making. We are not talking here about an incident where members of a religion
make mistakes. We are talking about people taking immoral, illegal, and
murderous actions who were official representatives of the LDS Church. Hitler
was never occupied as an officer of the Catholic Church. By contrast, the
(local) Stake President, his counselors, John D. Lee, and others who have been
proven to have perpetrated the MMM WERE formally recognized [local]
officials of the LDS Church. Moreover, they claim to have been taking actions
that were under "color of office" and [what they thought were] on behalf
of the Church and its general leaders (i.e., Brigham Young, George A. Smith).
That they were mistaken is subject to further investigation and debate - and is
the crux of the issue in whether or not Brigham Young is personally culpable.
But by every legal standard today as well as in that day, the leaders of the LDS
Church are responsible for the MMM because it was done by officially recognized
officers of that organization acting as such. This fact is exactly why the
"cover-up" was needed and perpetrated in the first place. If the LDS Church as
an institution was not culpable for the actions of its official (local)
representatives, there would not only have been no reason for the cover-up, but
there would be no reason for the apology today. Indeed, you can take the
Church's actions of issuing the apology as validation of the legal soundness of
this interpretation I have just offered.Cheers.
You nailed it. That is exactly the point, and all the "love" and "hugs" and
"move on" and "forgive" and other rubbish won't cut past that fact.Good job, Jake!
Come on out Urkel... we know there is just one nerd out there being critical
under various aliases. Is it Christian for people to be angry against today's
Mormons because of what a few people did 150 years ago? I believe the
judgements should be left to God. He will reward/punish each of us for our
earthly deeds. No need to foster contention now because each of us will receive
the justice of God.
My great, great, great grandfather was Isaac C. Haight. He was involved in
making decisions for the actions at Mountain Meadows. I apologize! I
apologize to the descendants of the Fancher and Baker families and the other
families of that immagrant party. I apologize to the countless people who would
have grown to adulthood or been born had the massacre not occurred.
The more I learn, the more I feel that Isaac C. Haight would also apologize. I
cannot speak for him, or for other family members, but I apologize! The words
seem sooooo small in the enormity of the situation, but it is all I know how to
do. Sincerely, William (Bill) Lewis, Lindon, Ut.
I have spent far too long reading these comments when I could have spent the
time doing something much more constructive. I do have to say, it's been
interesting and educational. I hope that no one ever 'forgets' about the
lives of these people and the tragic way their lives ended; but to dwell on it
and rehash it year after year is not going to bring any kind of healing to
anyone. If you truly want to memorialize them and honor them, let go of the
anger, hurt, or whatever it is that is driving this frenzy, and find within
yourselves the strength to forgive. If you can do this, you will find peace in
your heart like you have never experienced before. This shouldn't be about
Mormons or Non-Mormons or who is or isn't better than another.Some
comments here, on both sides, have been mean and hard hearted. I would be
ashamed of myself if I had written some of this stuff.Lets remember those
who lost their lives (whether in the MMM or any other event) and move forward
with our own lives, making each day better than the day before. MM
If you all haven't figured it out yet...this whole string is not really about
the MMM. It's about perception of Mormons from those who have been wronged by
Mormonism in general. It' the perception by Mormons that if you don't agree
with Mormon doctrine, then you (non-Mormon) are wrong and need to change. It's
this judgmental...we are better than you attitude perception that is really the
issue here.Mormon's don't like to acknowledge it...hence so much
controversy about the MMM apoligy. It's the Mormonism's unwillingness to
acknowledge that their religion may have or has fallacies...fallacies which
cause non-Mormons to question the "truthfulness" of the religion in general.
As for me...being one of the Ex:Mormons...this whole thing has been
good for me. It has allowed a verbal outlet for my frustration, yet, through
the kindness of some responding Mormons, reminded me that in all things...do
unto others as you would have them do unto you. In otherwords....while we
disagree...we should all try to treat each other...and their belief's with the
respect that we would like to be treated.This has been much cheeper
Town Heathan,Thank you for your post.
Town Heathan,Thank you for your post. As a member of The Church of Jesus
Christ of Latter-Day Saints I respect you for your decicions and belief's just
as I hope you can respect me for mine I wish everyone could just respect one
another and be friends.
Jake,your legal analysis is faulty at best. If a U.S. Postal
employee, in the course of his employment, commits a crime, we don't arrest, try
and lock up his boss. We arrest, try and lock up the perpetrator.All the quibbling about whether "regret" does or does not equal "apology"
seems to rest upon the notion that someone--namely the Church of Jesus
Christ--must "take responsibility" for the MMM. This in turn seems to rest upon
some theory of "collective guilt." Such a notion is unChristian and morally
repugnant.Please note that this is the very same theory of
"collective guilt" by which other bigots--or perhaps even some of the same
ones--abuse Jews with the filthy epithet of "Christ-killers." It is contrary to
revealed doctrine, and therefore untrue.Bill,I note your
apology. You seem to see a need to apologise for being related to a long-dead
murderer. Guess what: so is every person now living.
What is so difficult for me is to try and understand, why any thinking person
cannot see the problem with this whole thing. That being, that the very ones who
massacred these people, the Priesthood Leaders of "The Church of Jesus Christ of
Latter-day Saints...that is not in dispute. And now this same "Church" feels has
the right to control the gravsite of those that were murdered? Plus "Regret"
does not mean "Apology", no matter how you try to wordsmith it!
Nauvoo "Christian,"In reverse order:1) An expression of
regret is all the apology that can sincerely be offered where the offeror is not
to blame for what occurred.2) The Church has every right to control
land that it owns. That's sort of what ownership means, you see.3)
And, as is well understood by everyone who does not rely upon the unChristian
notion of collective guilt, the Church did not commit the massacre. Some of its
members did, contrary to its explicit moral teachings. I am aware of no
reputable historian who holds the old anti-Mormon propaganda position of "the
Mormon Church did it."If you have difficulty understanding how
thinking people process these facts, perhaps you should ask one.
3 Nephi 11:29-30
The word "apology" only appears in the title of the article. There was no
mention of apology, "apologize" or "sorry".The Mormon church
specifically corrected this article's account of the speech as not an apology.
"The atmosphere in Utah was fearful, [a state of war] and antagonistic
with regard to [Missourians vocal, harassing amd making threatening actions
vocal along the way] -- [not just] any non-Mormons from east of the Rockies in
the fall of 1857 [but the wagon train from Arkansas and people in the wagon
train that assassinated Parley P Pratt -LDS Apostle], and circumstantial
evidence at the time (substantiated upon examination - hung jury, and subsequent
double jeopardy trial] the only one conviction of anything did suggest that this
train of immigrants had ridiculed, [murdered, raped, maimed] and harassed Mormon
settlements along the way, " A repeat of Missouri and should have been
dealt with earlier, but for the vast hateful treatment of the Mormons even to
It was in time of war, the outcome speaks for itself. Since that event, no
outside force with the exception of Johnson's army that illegally threw out
Brigham Young and Governor of the Territory and Johnson's tactics only
frustrated the situation and caused more Mormon deaths. Be truthful. The
apologies was not required, and covered sensitivities to of those issues raising
additional harm as to confiscation of property, death and bodily harm with no
justification but hate and averice of the Mormons that had no merit but to quell
further conflicts and mayhem. One thing can be seen clearly. No one messed
with the Mormons aftwards to any significant level and all such attempts ended
after the Mountain Meadows WAR.