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Church issues apology for massacre
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Shocked by Comments | 6:25 p.m. Sept. 13, 2007
Just read this article and the comments. The comments are pretting shocking.
Whats up with all the hate folks? Just let everyone have there opinion and get
over it.
Doug Barber | 6:32 p.m. Sept. 13, 2007
I think this thread shows how useful it is for an institution to make an apology
about a 150 year old event.
Comments continue below
Anonymous | 6:47 p.m. Sept. 13, 2007
Shocked-
Its not hate, its History 102.
Some of these people slept through my class..
Its not hate, its History 102.
Some of these people slept through my class..
Jake | 7:27 p.m. Sept. 13, 2007
Many of you have invoked analogies with various persons (e.g., Hitler) of
different faiths (e.g., Catholic) doing horrible things. These analogies are
frequently false analogies. We are not talking here about an incident where
�members� of a religion make mistakes.
We are talking about people taking immoral, illegal, and murderous actions who
were official representatives of the LDS Church. Hitler was never occupied as an
officer of the Catholic Church. By contrast, the (local) Stake President, his
counselors, John D. Lee, and others who have been proven to have perpetrated the
MMM WERE formally recognized [local] officials of the LDS Church. Moreover, they
claim to have been taking actions that were under "color of office"
and [what they thought were] on behalf of the Church and its general leaders
(i.e., Brigham Young, George A. Smith). That they were mistaken is subject to
further investigation and debate - and is the crux of the issue in whether or
not Brigham Young is personally culpable. But by every legal standard today as
well as in that day, the leaders of the LDS Church are responsible for the MMM
because it was done by officially recognized officers of that organization
acting as such. This fact is exactly why the "cover-up" was needed and
perpetrated in the first place. If the LDS Church as an institution was not
culpable for the actions of its official (local) representatives, there would
not only have been no reason for the cover-up, but there would be no reason for
the apology today. Indeed, you can take the Church's actions of issuing the
apology as validation of the legal soundness of this interpretation I have just
offered.
Cheers.
Cheers.
Jake | 7:27 p.m. Sept. 13, 2007
To Voice of Reason,
Not a bad summary, but at least one error that needs to be corrected. The analogy with Hitler being Catholic is a false analogy, and reveals the error most people posting on this blog have been making. We are not talking here about an incident where �members� of a religion make mistakes. We are talking about people taking immoral, illegal, and murderous actions who were official representatives of the LDS Church. Hitler was never occupied as an officer of the Catholic Church. By contrast, the (local) Stake President, his counselors, John D. Lee, and others who have been proven to have perpetrated the MMM WERE formally recognized [local] officials of the LDS Church. Moreover, they claim to have been taking actions that were under "color of office" and [what they thought were] on behalf of the Church and its general leaders (i.e., Brigham Young, George A. Smith). That they were mistaken is subject to further investigation and debate - and is the crux of the issue in whether or not Brigham Young is personally culpable. But by every legal standard today as well as in that day, the leaders of the LDS Church are responsible for the MMM because it was done by officially recognized officers of that organization acting as such. This fact is exactly why the "cover-up" was needed and perpetrated in the first place. If the LDS Church as an institution was not culpable for the actions of its official (local) representatives, there would not only have been no reason for the cover-up, but there would be no reason for the apology today. Indeed, you can take the Church's actions of issuing the apology as validation of the legal soundness of this interpretation I have just offered.
Cheers.
Not a bad summary, but at least one error that needs to be corrected. The analogy with Hitler being Catholic is a false analogy, and reveals the error most people posting on this blog have been making. We are not talking here about an incident where �members� of a religion make mistakes. We are talking about people taking immoral, illegal, and murderous actions who were official representatives of the LDS Church. Hitler was never occupied as an officer of the Catholic Church. By contrast, the (local) Stake President, his counselors, John D. Lee, and others who have been proven to have perpetrated the MMM WERE formally recognized [local] officials of the LDS Church. Moreover, they claim to have been taking actions that were under "color of office" and [what they thought were] on behalf of the Church and its general leaders (i.e., Brigham Young, George A. Smith). That they were mistaken is subject to further investigation and debate - and is the crux of the issue in whether or not Brigham Young is personally culpable. But by every legal standard today as well as in that day, the leaders of the LDS Church are responsible for the MMM because it was done by officially recognized officers of that organization acting as such. This fact is exactly why the "cover-up" was needed and perpetrated in the first place. If the LDS Church as an institution was not culpable for the actions of its official (local) representatives, there would not only have been no reason for the cover-up, but there would be no reason for the apology today. Indeed, you can take the Church's actions of issuing the apology as validation of the legal soundness of this interpretation I have just offered.
Cheers.
Desert Rat | 9:43 p.m. Sept. 13, 2007
So if I do something illegal and immoral while out doing my home teaching, then
Gordon B. Hinckley is "culpable"??? I don't think so. I think
I'm responsible for my own actions. I don't buy your "voice of
reason," Jake.
Rich Stone | 10:27 p.m. Sept. 13, 2007
A couple thoughts. First MMM was a horrible tragedy and condolences to the
victims and families involved. I remember reading about MMM a few years ago and
it seemed as though there were some feelings of reconciliation and forgiveness
between the Arkansas groups and the descendants of the perpetrators. Looks like
whatever progress was made between them has deteriorated on this thread.
Secondly the underlying prejudices directed towards the LDS church and its
members I can only hope are being spewed forth by a small minority. These are
good people collectively and have a long track record of christian service
worldwide. It is obvious any bad news about the church is "good news"
in the minds of some. Too bad these same individuals politicize this
anniversary in an attempt to further their anti-mormon agenda. On a side note
regarding the MMM site: I have visited the site recently and in conjunction with
the reverence one feels there, the site is well maintained. I would hate to see
the Federal Government take over and see it fall into a state of disrepair.
Finally regarding the church; let it alone. If it be the work of God it will
prosper, otherwise it will come to naught.
stan | 10:45 p.m. Sept. 13, 2007
The land was paid for in the blood of the innocents who were massacred.
FD | 11:13 p.m. Sept. 13, 2007
Petersneal, where is the references to find out how much the church leaders make
. I dont think there is any. If you are such an active member as you state then
why dont you address the leaders by their title and include their full name
instead of by their first name.(Dallin. Gorden) It might show a little respect
for them, which is somthing that you have shown you don't have.You have
shown that your testamony and faith is weak at best. Either fish or cut bait. If
you straddle the fence to long you will get your fanny scratched by the barbs.A
lot of what has been written in the comments have no bearing on our lives except
if we let it control our lives.
xp7br / CHAD | 11:45 p.m. Sept. 13, 2007
Chad: To answer your question:
Yep--sure did! No doubt! Unequivocally!
Yep--sure did! No doubt! Unequivocally!
To: Carlo Caroli | 12:15 a.m. Sept. 14, 2007
Produce a statement from the LDS church that says it supports the Republican
Party!
xp7br --- Jake | 12:15 a.m. Sept. 14, 2007
Jake,
Excellent.
Excellent.
Jake | 7:14 a.m. Sept. 14, 2007
To Desert Rat,
When you are acting as a represetative of the LDS Church, the things you do produce a legal and unavoidable liability for the Church. If you were to molest a child of the family you home taught, the Church would be (and has been) taken to court and found culpable and have to pay criminal and punitive damages for your actions. Moreover, as the President of the LDS Church, Gordon B. Hinckley is the legal head of the Corporation of the President, under which a great many of the Church's assets are held. (In times past, the President himself actually owned every penny of every asset held by the Church. But that has been changed for obvious reasons). Hence, in a legal sense, yes, if you do something illegal as a home teacher, Gordon B. Hinckley pays for it.
When you are acting as a represetative of the LDS Church, the things you do produce a legal and unavoidable liability for the Church. If you were to molest a child of the family you home taught, the Church would be (and has been) taken to court and found culpable and have to pay criminal and punitive damages for your actions. Moreover, as the President of the LDS Church, Gordon B. Hinckley is the legal head of the Corporation of the President, under which a great many of the Church's assets are held. (In times past, the President himself actually owned every penny of every asset held by the Church. But that has been changed for obvious reasons). Hence, in a legal sense, yes, if you do something illegal as a home teacher, Gordon B. Hinckley pays for it.
Town Heathan | 11:22 a.m. Sept. 14, 2007
PETERSNEAL - OL - FD
Love your comments. What disturbs me...is that when I was a missionary back in 1975, the discussions specifically said that we have "no paid ministry". So if the Prophet and General Authorities are getting paid AT ALL...then the discussions that I was issued and taught is a lie.
Either they are paid or not paid.
To teach from the podium that we don't pay our ministry, then to find out that the upper eschalone is being paid leads me to feel decieved. Don't much care for that feeling. As it is just one of many such feelings of deception...I diassociated myself from the LDS church, but find myself angry because I was deceived. My comments are a search as to why the feelings of being lied to are soooo strong. The best way is to talk, discuss and bring to light the real truths. So I guess in this specific case...I was told to say we have NO paid ministry when in fact we really do have one. I'm left with having to treat this as a deception...from the General Authorties no less, as they are the ones that OK'ed the discussions back in 1975 that had to be given word verbadeum.
Why would they decieve us?????
Love your comments. What disturbs me...is that when I was a missionary back in 1975, the discussions specifically said that we have "no paid ministry". So if the Prophet and General Authorities are getting paid AT ALL...then the discussions that I was issued and taught is a lie.
Either they are paid or not paid.
To teach from the podium that we don't pay our ministry, then to find out that the upper eschalone is being paid leads me to feel decieved. Don't much care for that feeling. As it is just one of many such feelings of deception...I diassociated myself from the LDS church, but find myself angry because I was deceived. My comments are a search as to why the feelings of being lied to are soooo strong. The best way is to talk, discuss and bring to light the real truths. So I guess in this specific case...I was told to say we have NO paid ministry when in fact we really do have one. I'm left with having to treat this as a deception...from the General Authorties no less, as they are the ones that OK'ed the discussions back in 1975 that had to be given word verbadeum.
Why would they decieve us?????
Petersneal | 2:05 p.m. Sept. 14, 2007
RE: FD
As a church, we believe that God and Jesus Christ appeared to Joseph Smith when Joseph was only 14 years old. Such a story definitely categorizes the LDS church as a strictly post-modern church. I.e., if we, as a church, honestly believe the first vision to be an actual event that really did happen, then we as a church are well beyond non post-modern practices. In other words, if you really believe (as I do) that a 14 year old can see God and Jesus Christ, then not addressing someone by their authoritative title isn't really that big of a deal. If your testimony hinges on the practice of always calling someone by their respective titles--even on informal Web blogs--then I say unto you, "Mister, good luck with hanging on to your testimony."
As a church, we believe that God and Jesus Christ appeared to Joseph Smith when Joseph was only 14 years old. Such a story definitely categorizes the LDS church as a strictly post-modern church. I.e., if we, as a church, honestly believe the first vision to be an actual event that really did happen, then we as a church are well beyond non post-modern practices. In other words, if you really believe (as I do) that a 14 year old can see God and Jesus Christ, then not addressing someone by their authoritative title isn't really that big of a deal. If your testimony hinges on the practice of always calling someone by their respective titles--even on informal Web blogs--then I say unto you, "Mister, good luck with hanging on to your testimony."
Jon B. Holbrook | 3:24 p.m. Sept. 14, 2007
The Mountain Meadows Massacre is the most tragic event in Utah history. It has
adversely affected the lives of the descendants on all sides of the tragedy. I
concur 110% with what Elder Henry Eyring said at the memorial service. May God
grant peace to all those involved. I hope and pray that every party involved
will conduct themselves in a Christ-like manner. If they do so, their just
desires for reconciliation will be fulfilled.
rb | 11:46 a.m. Sept. 17, 2007
To TTK: Go back to school and learn to spell!
carlo caroli | 4:09 p.m. Sept. 28, 2007
My intention was not to tell people what to vote or who to vote for, but it is
very clear that the LDS Church is very close to the Republican Party. A party
that is so far removed from basic gospel teachings. A party that wants to
ignore the needs of many unfortunate and poor americans. over 50 million with
no medical care, many more millions under insured. No good labor laws to
protect the average workers. We have become the laughing stock of the Western
World. No other people in the Western World are more socially abused than in
our own country. All of this with the full support of the Republican Party and
this sick warmonger administration. We are living in a sick country where the
poor are getting poorer and the filthy rich richer while the Republican Party
supports all of these iniquities. If the LDS Church truly is the True Church,
what business does it have to rub shoulders with such an evil political party?
Think, before you vote. Between two evils, one is surely less evil than the
other. God bless.
RUSS | 4:58 p.m. Oct. 13, 2007
HMMM I'M TRUELY SHOCKED . WHAT DID THE CHURCH LEADERS DO AT THE TIME . HOW
WAS IT HANDLED . WERE THE LOCAL PRIESTHOOD HELD TO ACCOUNT FOR THEIR ACTIONS .
WHY HAS IT TAKEN SO LONG FOR THE CHURCH TO HOLD THEIR HANDS UP AND ADMIT TO THAT
EVIL ACT .ARE THERE MORE INCIDENT THE CHURCH IS HIDING .
When Salt Lake City Calls | 7:02 p.m. Feb. 15, 2008
Why doesn't anyone ask the descendants of Mountain Meadows Massacre?
Frank Kirkman's Mountain Meadows Massacte site might be a good place to start.
Frank Kirkman's Mountain Meadows Massacte site might be a good place to start.
Anonymous | 12:12 p.m. Feb. 17, 2008
Belonging to no organized religion, I'll offer an "objective"
impression of this controversy from what I'll call a PR perspective, which,
basically, is my field.
Both personally and professionally, I've known many Mormons, and can recall none of whom I didn't form a favorable opinion, based on their friendliness, honesty, humor and tolerance. At the same time, I've met some non-Mormons who harbored surprisingly harsh views on the religion, and last year a close friend cited the MMM as the main reason for his antipathy.
Recalling his vehemence, when "September Dawn" appeared on cable TV, I watched with interest.
Without digressing into the film's dramatic or historical flaws, I'll say that while watching I felt horror, but also sympathy for modern Mormons whom, I assumed, have had to bear this stain on their faith's past. Then came the closing credits, saying the LDS never acknowledged responsibility. Instantly, my sympathy turned to angry curiosity, and I began an Internet search for the facts that finally led me here.
Now, having read the "Apology", and followed this thread, my respect and positive feelings toward the religion are restored; so, in my professional opinion, the Apology was, if nothing else, good PR.
Both personally and professionally, I've known many Mormons, and can recall none of whom I didn't form a favorable opinion, based on their friendliness, honesty, humor and tolerance. At the same time, I've met some non-Mormons who harbored surprisingly harsh views on the religion, and last year a close friend cited the MMM as the main reason for his antipathy.
Recalling his vehemence, when "September Dawn" appeared on cable TV, I watched with interest.
Without digressing into the film's dramatic or historical flaws, I'll say that while watching I felt horror, but also sympathy for modern Mormons whom, I assumed, have had to bear this stain on their faith's past. Then came the closing credits, saying the LDS never acknowledged responsibility. Instantly, my sympathy turned to angry curiosity, and I began an Internet search for the facts that finally led me here.
Now, having read the "Apology", and followed this thread, my respect and positive feelings toward the religion are restored; so, in my professional opinion, the Apology was, if nothing else, good PR.
Sam | 10:45 p.m. April 9, 2008
At least they apologize! What about all the Christian crusades thousands brutaly
massacred, and countless number of wars started "in the name of God"
or shall we say other religions who to this day have yet to apologize!
tontosdust2 | 5:03 p.m. June 12, 2008
I feel that this whole valley should be placed in the hands of the government
and not in the hands of the church. To show total respect to those
descendants--would be to have the government run this memorial.This is a grave
yard. The movie saddened me---what I researched after I watched the movie-so
upset me for days.
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1-
I think the Church of England should apologize for the Christian Crusades and the slaughter of hundreds and thousands of people.
2-
Spain should apologize for the rape and plunder of the Incas and Aztecs and killing Mr. Montezuma, all in the name of religion.
3-
And right here at home in Old Salem NC we should apologize for making accused witches swim or drown. If they made it across the river they were a witch and we burned them. If they drowned they were good witches..