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Church issues apology for massacre
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Cynic | 7:48 p.m. Sept. 11, 2007
I agree with those dudes saying "Get over it"! I mean, common! A BYU
freshman is found dead in his apartment - so what? get over it! and this chick
up in the canyone - just get over it! It has been like 15 hours, right?
Let's move on! Get over it -- oops. Sorry, wrong comment blog...
Howard | 7:57 p.m. Sept. 11, 2007
Cynic, how many hours of your waking day do ponder how to put the hurt on the
LDS church? It's a straight up question. Would just like to know.
Please answer directly. Thanks.
talktokeri | 8:02 p.m. Sept. 11, 2007
Why do some of our comments not get put in? Especially if nothing bad or
hateful was said? Should the owners of the twin towers give that ground to all
of the decendents of those affected by 9-11? Should I try to find all of the
decendents of the man that my fourth great-grand grandfather killed in a fight
and apologize for his death? I wasn't there, I don't know why the
fight started, it wasn't my fault. I DO regret that it happened.
I learned of the MMM while walking on the lawn of the courthouse in Harrison, AR and read a very one-sided (and non-lds veiw) on the MMM monument. Then across the street I found an Arkansas History book, that, after looking up the story in it, I felt very comfortable with the LDS's stand on the massacre. Why all of this hate. Are we not all people with similar goals, live good lives and return with honor to our heavenly home?
I learned of the MMM while walking on the lawn of the courthouse in Harrison, AR and read a very one-sided (and non-lds veiw) on the MMM monument. Then across the street I found an Arkansas History book, that, after looking up the story in it, I felt very comfortable with the LDS's stand on the massacre. Why all of this hate. Are we not all people with similar goals, live good lives and return with honor to our heavenly home?
Comments continue below
Rob says | 8:03 p.m. Sept. 11, 2007
As a Member of the LDS faith I have never once been taught that our leaders are
perfect. When hate for a religion or person is evident it becomes easy to
convince ones self that any accusations are true. Through out history those who
claim to be prophets or doing things in the name of God are always found and
punished. This is why Moses, David, Aaron and at times Joseph Smith lost
Blessing or authority to Work in the name of God. To compare the LDS church to
radical Islam is very unfair. If you think that the church is racist listen to
this. When the church was illegally kicked out of the Missouri and other states
one of the reasons was the church had made it clear that they did not believe in
slavery. Because the church was growing so large it became a political
necessity for pro slavery politicians to remove the Mormons. I Sincerely
believe that Brigham Young would have been removed from his position as Prophet
if he had anything to do with the MMM. Warren Jeff�s is
another person who has been removed from his office I believe because the lord
does not want him pretending to represent him. Although I do not agree with
what the local leaders did in the MMM if you know the history one could
understand why the leaders made that decision. Remember the LDS people had been
killed raped and even an extermination order was given by a Governor. You had
people moving through Utah boasting that they had help kill our prophet and
telling the Mormon people they were going to bring and army back to finish the
job by killing everyone (exterminating) including women and children. The
People were in their eyes protecting themselves
bob | 8:20 p.m. Sept. 11, 2007
the lds religion is the same as most religions. over time they transform from
the conquering and killing business to the love and peace business
Randy Jordan | 8:44 p.m. Sept. 11, 2007
This is a response for "Howard":
In my earlier comment, I suggested that you refrain from offering opinions on this subject until you have studied the data. You have not given any indication that you have studied the data I provided a link to. I again invite you to study the historical documentation before you ignorantly call someone a "religious bigot."
I suggest that you clear your mind of what you have been taught to believe in Sunday School and seminary, and study the actual history from the words and deeds of the participants.
Another general comment: Apostle Eyring's remarks today did not constitute a sincere apology. A sincere and complete apology involves accepting responsibility for wrongful actions. Eyring continued to place the blame for the MMM on "local Mormons," just as Gordon B. Hinckley and other deceitful LDS leaders have done ever since the incident occurred. (Hinckley refused to admit institutional responsibility for the MMM on the advice of church lawyers who feared lawsuits for reparations by the massacre victims' descendants.)
Of course, LDS leaders also refuse to admit that official church policies led to the massacre because that would destroy the church's self-proclaimed status as the "one true church of Jesus Christ," and their claims of having a "prophet" who receives guidance from God.
I think it's hypocritical that LDS church leaders often preach to their disciples about the "repentance process," while those leaders are not willing to undergo the "repentance process" for wrongs committed by their church as an institution.
In my earlier comment, I suggested that you refrain from offering opinions on this subject until you have studied the data. You have not given any indication that you have studied the data I provided a link to. I again invite you to study the historical documentation before you ignorantly call someone a "religious bigot."
I suggest that you clear your mind of what you have been taught to believe in Sunday School and seminary, and study the actual history from the words and deeds of the participants.
Another general comment: Apostle Eyring's remarks today did not constitute a sincere apology. A sincere and complete apology involves accepting responsibility for wrongful actions. Eyring continued to place the blame for the MMM on "local Mormons," just as Gordon B. Hinckley and other deceitful LDS leaders have done ever since the incident occurred. (Hinckley refused to admit institutional responsibility for the MMM on the advice of church lawyers who feared lawsuits for reparations by the massacre victims' descendants.)
Of course, LDS leaders also refuse to admit that official church policies led to the massacre because that would destroy the church's self-proclaimed status as the "one true church of Jesus Christ," and their claims of having a "prophet" who receives guidance from God.
I think it's hypocritical that LDS church leaders often preach to their disciples about the "repentance process," while those leaders are not willing to undergo the "repentance process" for wrongs committed by their church as an institution.
Curtis | 8:45 p.m. Sept. 11, 2007
The people who perpetrated the MMM lashed out at something they thought was a
threat that actually wasn't. I just got through reading over 150 comments
here, and all I can say is that the majority are doing exactly the same thing -
only with words.
Those who don't learn from history truly are destined to repeat it.
Those who don't learn from history truly are destined to repeat it.
observer | 8:51 p.m. Sept. 11, 2007
It's painfully apparent,that the only real winners here are the people that
make ink, and paper. We should all spend more time improving ourselves and less
time trying to improve others. Everybody's got an oppinion, and everybody
thinks they're right, and only God knows who's correct. So, whether
you like it or not you'll learn sooner or later that life in the rear view
mirror is a waste of your time and life. And to that, I am done!
MoJules | 8:53 p.m. Sept. 11, 2007
1. No one is going to prove one way or the other for sure that Brigham Young
made the order, so for those who believe in God, trust that He knows and if
Brigham did wrong, he will pay. So let it go, what good does it do to say he
did it, if you don't have absolute proof, isn't it innocent until
proven guilty. The only proof I see is anger and hatred and emotion, nothing
but the same things that have been said for years. So relax all you Mormon
haters and know that there is a just God and that no one can pull the wool over
his eyes when they do a wrong.
2. I have been to the MMM site, it is very clean and very much out of the way, kind of hard to find. Let the church give it back, and then all of you that are in support of that, go back in five years or ten and see the overgrown weeds, the vandalized area, the broken fences and fallen rocks. That is what will happen, there will be no staff or money that will go into maintaining that area if it is federal land, but now it is maintained and kept.
3. Events like MMM are part of our history, just like six years ago, but we have to move on, watching today the people was kind of sad, they are acting like what happened six years ago was six days ago, and those who hold anger over what happened 150 year ago, act like it was six days ago.
4. Question, how many of you that are wanting an apology and to have the church give up the site are actual descendants of the victims or are you Mormon haters?
2. I have been to the MMM site, it is very clean and very much out of the way, kind of hard to find. Let the church give it back, and then all of you that are in support of that, go back in five years or ten and see the overgrown weeds, the vandalized area, the broken fences and fallen rocks. That is what will happen, there will be no staff or money that will go into maintaining that area if it is federal land, but now it is maintained and kept.
3. Events like MMM are part of our history, just like six years ago, but we have to move on, watching today the people was kind of sad, they are acting like what happened six years ago was six days ago, and those who hold anger over what happened 150 year ago, act like it was six days ago.
4. Question, how many of you that are wanting an apology and to have the church give up the site are actual descendants of the victims or are you Mormon haters?
blokey | 8:59 p.m. Sept. 11, 2007
This notion that the LDS church has never acknowledged the fact that local Mormon leaders were complicit in this event, until today, is baloney.
I have journals and church publications going back 100 years which clearly does acknowledge the Mormons involvement.
The straw-man arguments put forth by the anti's here is just laughable.
These "nattering nabobs of negativism" won't be satisfied until they can implicate Brigham Young and thus the Church itself.
Why? because, then it's payday. How many times have we heard "reparations" in this thread.
Why don't you anti's get off your talking points.
We know what you're up to and so does the church.
The animosity and rancor toward the Church is evident. You have no spirit of reconciliation, and you want to blame those who are blameless. That makes you liars. Why should anyone deal with you, when you come to the table with those attitudes?
The book coming forth is researched by
"True Historians" with PhD's behind their names, not by two-bit pseudo historians, like Will Bagley, Sandra Tanner and John Voight.
Read :
http://farms.byu.edu/display.php?table=review&id=509
Until then, save your comments, because you don't have enough debth of understanding to even put forth an opinion.
You cannot dismiss undeniable facts as "utah myths", and concoct, make up, take statements out of time and place, place people in places they were not and misquote speeches, to the point, that you leave antithetical impressions of what was actually stated.
Your big shot at re-writing history, has failed.
September Dawn has done 1 million dollars, and half the theaters have dropped it.
The producers spent 11 million on this "Goebells propoganda" and needs to make 22 million for the studios to break even, nice investment.
You've had your day, now move on.
blokey
Suzanne | 9:08 p.m. Sept. 11, 2007
Let's hope the MMM descendants can get on with their lives now and quit
wasting time and effort hashing and rehashing this terrible event that happened
so long ago. Just about every person in this country and on this planet has
ancestors who were wronged, mistreated, imprisoned, brutalized, robbed,
murdered, etc. etc. by someone else's ancestors. If I quit my job and went
to England to harass the Queen about apologizing to me because in 1780 the
English shot my Irish 5th great grandfather & his fellow villagers dead in
the street, you would have me committed. What if we all quit being productive
and spent our days soliciting apologies for all the wrongs committed throughout
history?
Alan | 9:15 p.m. Sept. 11, 2007
Ha, as an Australian I always find it so fascinating how Americans view the
world. You know, like 'America is the greatest democracy in the
world', and 'The [LDS] Church is the ONLY true church', and (this
one really gets me)'OJ is innocent' (The worlds greatest legal system
at work!! Yeah, right!!)LDS are just as fanatical today as they were
yesterday!!! Romney will do EXACTLY as his Prophet will tell him as would any of
the followers of this religion. Just the same as any other fanatical religion
and at the very least Brigham Young was an accomplice in the MMM as he actively
lied and protected those who were involved. BUT, because the Church is
'true' its followers will believe anything that its leaders say. Just
like other Americans who believe that they live in the greatest country in the
world. All of you, take your blinkers off!!
petersneal | 9:21 p.m. Sept. 11, 2007
RE: Newby
Amen! Perhaps there is hope for the future of the church. It's interesting to note that there are so many posts that regard progressive thought as "anti-mormon" or "jack mormon." To face the facts and call out the ban on the priesthood for what it was is certainly not an anti-mormon act. If anything, such progressive ideas, will keep the church afloat. The church is now at an important cross roads. Eyring's public apology marks a significant shift in public PR church policy. Perhaps now the doors can be open for more apologies and more progressive thought. The members all need an apology. As far as I can tell, the majority of active members typically offer the church leadership (both local and general) undying faithfulness and support. Such faithfulness should not be abused. Church leaders need to recognize the importance for individual thought. Why, even Dallin H. Oaks might agree that if more individual thought was exercised and encouraged, perhaps tragedies like the MMM wouldn't happen. Perhaps if we were more open about the real church history, we as a people never would have stood for such a ridiculous policy like a ban on the priesthood.
Other things that need to happen if the church is going to survive:
1. Open the church historical archives (sorry, Boyd, but this has got to happen). If the church is true, what is there to hide?
2. Make financial records public (sorry apostles, but "humble" servants do not need to be given 100,000$+ a year, and the prophet certainly doesn't need 500,000$+ a year. The only reason these records aren't public is because the leadership doesn't trust the members.
Amen! Perhaps there is hope for the future of the church. It's interesting to note that there are so many posts that regard progressive thought as "anti-mormon" or "jack mormon." To face the facts and call out the ban on the priesthood for what it was is certainly not an anti-mormon act. If anything, such progressive ideas, will keep the church afloat. The church is now at an important cross roads. Eyring's public apology marks a significant shift in public PR church policy. Perhaps now the doors can be open for more apologies and more progressive thought. The members all need an apology. As far as I can tell, the majority of active members typically offer the church leadership (both local and general) undying faithfulness and support. Such faithfulness should not be abused. Church leaders need to recognize the importance for individual thought. Why, even Dallin H. Oaks might agree that if more individual thought was exercised and encouraged, perhaps tragedies like the MMM wouldn't happen. Perhaps if we were more open about the real church history, we as a people never would have stood for such a ridiculous policy like a ban on the priesthood.
Other things that need to happen if the church is going to survive:
1. Open the church historical archives (sorry, Boyd, but this has got to happen). If the church is true, what is there to hide?
2. Make financial records public (sorry apostles, but "humble" servants do not need to be given 100,000$+ a year, and the prophet certainly doesn't need 500,000$+ a year. The only reason these records aren't public is because the leadership doesn't trust the members.
petersneal | 9:28 p.m. Sept. 11, 2007
RE: blokey
Ahhh....what I would give to still be a young BYU student in love with FARMS reviews. Well....one day you're going to wake up, just like I did, and realize just how ridiculous and one-sided FARMS is. Don't worry, you'll come around. And, by the way, Jon Voight is an actor, not a historian, and he doesn't spell his name with an "h."
Ahhh....what I would give to still be a young BYU student in love with FARMS reviews. Well....one day you're going to wake up, just like I did, and realize just how ridiculous and one-sided FARMS is. Don't worry, you'll come around. And, by the way, Jon Voight is an actor, not a historian, and he doesn't spell his name with an "h."
Love One Another | 9:28 p.m. Sept. 11, 2007
Greetings,
Lets all just follow Christs example and teachings and love one another. We should all be thankful that we live in a great country that we can be free. Let us remember the losses from 9/11 and be greatful for our men and women that fight for our freedom.
The LDS church is sorry. Please forgive those who did this act 150 years ago.
On another note the Church has no political preference. I have friends that are very prominent in the LDS Church and the State of Utah that are staunch Democrats just FYI.
Lets all just follow Christs example and teachings and love one another. We should all be thankful that we live in a great country that we can be free. Let us remember the losses from 9/11 and be greatful for our men and women that fight for our freedom.
The LDS church is sorry. Please forgive those who did this act 150 years ago.
On another note the Church has no political preference. I have friends that are very prominent in the LDS Church and the State of Utah that are staunch Democrats just FYI.
IF Reader | 9:33 p.m. Sept. 11, 2007
Alan - Let me see if I can find you a plane back to Australia. It must not be
too bad here if you swam that far to get to such a horrible place. LOL
dave | 9:38 p.m. Sept. 11, 2007
Wow! I have just spent about an hour reading all the whining about history that
I can stomach.
I believe that it is time for all of us to love each other today. Respect each other today. Let each other worship according to the dictates of thier own conscience and allow all others the same privilage.
Have a great day!
A few more thoughts; Don't murder people who come through your state.Don't hate your neighbors for what thier 150 year old relatives may have done.
And were sun screen.
I believe that it is time for all of us to love each other today. Respect each other today. Let each other worship according to the dictates of thier own conscience and allow all others the same privilage.
Have a great day!
A few more thoughts; Don't murder people who come through your state.Don't hate your neighbors for what thier 150 year old relatives may have done.
And were sun screen.
Sheep Pal | 9:41 p.m. Sept. 11, 2007
I agree sheeple, let them tell you that your church is different from the rest
of the nation. But when that order comes down to slaughter, heed the call as
you will.
LDS Member | 9:47 p.m. Sept. 11, 2007
I would like to write this to the great people who are not members of the LDS
church. I want to apologize for any anger, unkind words, arguing, and wrong
doings that my fellow Church Members or myself have done to you. Please forgive
us of our weaknesses for we have many. I hope that my example when it is
negative doesn't reflect on the LDS church for I am only human and trying
my best. I pray that we may be more kind and considerate of your beliefs. I
along with the Church am sorry for the events of 150 years ago.
itzahk | 9:47 p.m. Sept. 11, 2007
Bunch of boobs you are. Now you know why I refuse to live in U-tah.
Enjoy your upcoming visit with Hillary!
Enjoy your upcoming visit with Hillary!
Anne | 9:49 p.m. Sept. 11, 2007
Alan, I'm an Australian too. I disagree with you. Although, I am curious to
know why you would be interested in this particular story. I am glad to know the
LDS church has openly apologized for this tragedy. The members of the LDS Church
are obviously not perfect but name me a group of people who are! There are
volumes written outlining the offenses of many nations and religious groups and
the tyranny they have inflicted on the world. I think you will find Mormons have
a rather small share in this, and the United States too for that matter.
RB | 9:55 p.m. Sept. 11, 2007
My ancestors too were driven like animals from their homes, robbed, beaten and
murdered. I don't whine about it nor seek an apology. It's in the
past and I have no animosity.
dave | 10:02 p.m. Sept. 11, 2007
hillary who?
spellcheck | 10:03 p.m. Sept. 11, 2007
I just can't believe how many people can't spell! Has technology
destroyed our language?
Apologies... | 10:08 p.m. Sept. 11, 2007
As an actiive Mormon who loves his faith, I forgive all of the Mormons who
support Mitt Romney and not Fred Thompson.
Howard | 10:14 p.m. Sept. 11, 2007
My point Randy Jordan is this: It is self evident from your posts that you want
to disparage the LDS church at every turn. You want to take a shot with the
intent of bringing down the LDS Church in the eyes of others. That is the
essence bigotry. You "have it against" the Church. That is bigotry.
You are against the LDS Church for the Church's sake. That is bigotry.
The unmistakable tone of your own posts prove this point.
FD | 10:16 p.m. Sept. 11, 2007
Petersneal, there you go again. throwing out your hate for the LDS church.
Where did you get your figures as to how much the athorities get as a stipend?
Please let us know ,if you can. I dont think you can however.
Think it through! | 10:17 p.m. Sept. 11, 2007
Seriously, how many of you have stopped to consider the the words of Christ,
"He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone..." It
is not our right to judge others. We must forgive everyone and let God be the
ultimate judge. None of us knows exactly the full circumstances or emotions of
what happened that day. While it is truly regretful and sad, there have been
thousands of such acts committed throughout time by numerous groups and
individuals and no group or individual living today can satisfactorily apologize
for something that someone who is no longer living did 150 years ago, that
remains to be worked out between the individuals directly involved on the other
side of the veil. Men will not be held accountable for the actions of their
ancestors. Do we hold a young child responsible for the actions of a
lawbreaking parent? Of course not!! Every person will be judged for his or her
own sins. I hope people will stop blaming others and live their own lives
according to their own conscience. When you have lived a life of perfection and
have earned that distinction, then you will have received the right to make
judgements, until then, there is only one man that walked this earth that fits
that description, "Jesus Christ" lets leave the judgements where they
belong.
FD | 10:21 p.m. Sept. 11, 2007
Petersneal, there you go again. throwing out your hate for the LDS church.
Where did you get your figures as to how much the authorities get as a stipend?
Please let us know ,if you can. I dont think you can however.
Petersneal | 10:25 p.m. Sept. 11, 2007
RE: FD
I don't hate the church. I love the church, and I recognize that the church is as every bit my church as it is your church, or Boyd's, or Dallin's...
Anyway,
all you need to do (other be sure to spell things correctly) is a simple google search for the prophet's and current apostles' salaries, and you'll find a variety of different sources that all generally agree that the prophet makes about 500,000$ a year, and the apostles make about 100,00$ a year. Unauthorized church employees have posted such information on the Internet. As a member who has busted my own rear end my whole life serving the church for free--including a two year mission that the church didn't pay for--I feel that the salary that the leaders give themselves is a bit much. I think it's healthy to express disagreements when they happen. If we don't keep ourselves in check, you never know, another MMM might happen.
I don't hate the church. I love the church, and I recognize that the church is as every bit my church as it is your church, or Boyd's, or Dallin's...
Anyway,
all you need to do (other be sure to spell things correctly) is a simple google search for the prophet's and current apostles' salaries, and you'll find a variety of different sources that all generally agree that the prophet makes about 500,000$ a year, and the apostles make about 100,00$ a year. Unauthorized church employees have posted such information on the Internet. As a member who has busted my own rear end my whole life serving the church for free--including a two year mission that the church didn't pay for--I feel that the salary that the leaders give themselves is a bit much. I think it's healthy to express disagreements when they happen. If we don't keep ourselves in check, you never know, another MMM might happen.
Ima Mormon | 10:56 p.m. Sept. 11, 2007
Why was my earlier post not posted?
Read it again.
I spoke the truth according to the LDS doctrine and teachings.
If you think what I said was wrong, then you are either anti-mormon, or don't follow your prophets.
Read it again.
I spoke the truth according to the LDS doctrine and teachings.
If you think what I said was wrong, then you are either anti-mormon, or don't follow your prophets.
Johannes Climacus | 10:58 p.m. Sept. 11, 2007
I agree with Petersneal.
Too many members blindly follow whatever the church leaders say. Too many followers feel that someone is anti-mormon or going apostate when all they're really doing is thinking for themselves.
Wake up everybody; it's okay to be a member of the church and think for yourself! If you're in church and you hear something that doesn't sound quite right, then maybe it isn't right. Think for yourselves. You don't have to blindly follow whatever you hear the first presidency say. Everyone can receive personal revelation
Too many members blindly follow whatever the church leaders say. Too many followers feel that someone is anti-mormon or going apostate when all they're really doing is thinking for themselves.
Wake up everybody; it's okay to be a member of the church and think for yourself! If you're in church and you hear something that doesn't sound quite right, then maybe it isn't right. Think for yourselves. You don't have to blindly follow whatever you hear the first presidency say. Everyone can receive personal revelation
Ray | 11:02 p.m. Sept. 11, 2007
Hmm....Petersneal brings up an important question: Why are the church historical
records not open to the general membership? This fact is very disturbing. What
is the church trying to hide?
wow | 11:05 p.m. Sept. 11, 2007
can't we all just agree to disagree about ANYTHING that has to do with the
LDS church?
Mormoonie1978 | 11:05 p.m. Sept. 11, 2007
Yeah, why are the church historical archives closed to the general public? Does
anyone have any insight into this? What is the church trying to hide?
Grady | 11:22 p.m. Sept. 11, 2007
Ray -
What do you mean church historical records are not open to the general membership? I thought they were open and we could see everything. If they are closed, it certainly looks like they're hiding something.
What do you mean church historical records are not open to the general membership? I thought they were open and we could see everything. If they are closed, it certainly looks like they're hiding something.
checking in from Europe | 11:27 p.m. Sept. 11, 2007
I grew up LDS in Southern Utah, but I haven't lived in Utah for 20 years
because of my husband's military status. I don't know how many of the
comments come from people living in Utah, but I've found myself
increasingly sadder as I've read the gnashing back and forth, and found
myself wondering, do I want to move back "home"?
Mountain Meadows Massacre was a horrible thing that happened. Horrible things are happening all around us. My hope would be that we can all, no matter what religion or country we hail from, no matter what has happened in the past, that we can work together to make today better than yesterday. Have we learned from history? Maybe some of us have. But the tone of these comments doesn't seem to be pointing to a better outcome than MMM.
I just know that in my little corner of the world--which at this time happens to be a beautiful spot in Europe--I'm going to look for the best in others,be the best I can be, and teach my children to do what is right. If we all did the same, the world would be a better place. Trite but true. Or would "tried and true" be more appropriate. (Check out 4th Nephi)
Mountain Meadows Massacre was a horrible thing that happened. Horrible things are happening all around us. My hope would be that we can all, no matter what religion or country we hail from, no matter what has happened in the past, that we can work together to make today better than yesterday. Have we learned from history? Maybe some of us have. But the tone of these comments doesn't seem to be pointing to a better outcome than MMM.
I just know that in my little corner of the world--which at this time happens to be a beautiful spot in Europe--I'm going to look for the best in others,be the best I can be, and teach my children to do what is right. If we all did the same, the world would be a better place. Trite but true. Or would "tried and true" be more appropriate. (Check out 4th Nephi)
Ednacious | 11:28 p.m. Sept. 11, 2007
This string of posts started out lame and got progressively worse from there.
It was the triumph of hope against experience that led me to waste the time to
read through the whole thing. The only thing more grating was to read through
the Tribune version. I don't which is worse: lectures from condescending
"enlightened" lapsed Mormons or hectoring from the most provincial,
narrow-minded, bigotted people alive: the anti-Mormons of Utah. Hard call.
Jay | 11:33 p.m. Sept. 11, 2007
This is something every LDS should know. Not all (LDS) knows about what happened
150 years ago. This could make or break...
The church must step forward and do the right thing in every situation, past or present, right away.
The church must step forward and do the right thing in every situation, past or present, right away.
Suzanne | 11:44 p.m. Sept. 11, 2007
Are the records and archives of any church, or any group religious or not,
opened to anyone who walks in off the street and wants to see them? I think
not.
O.L. | 11:48 p.m. Sept. 11, 2007
Petersneal, You must know one thing. The prophets and apostles gave up their
jobs to serve in the church full time. Most of them are highly educated and
making much more than $100,000 a year before being called. And if that is truly
what they are given to meet their needs, then they are likely sacrificing a lot
to become an apostle. And you couldn't pay me enough to be the prophet.
Can you imagine being his age and working the way he does? I want to be retired
in Hawaii when I am that age.
Petersneal | 12:11 a.m. Sept. 12, 2007
RE: O.L.
I totally agree with you. There is no way I would ever want to be prophet--it's just too much work. If it was up to me, I would increase all their salaries to at least a billion dollars a year, even Boyd's.
The main point I was trying to make, wasn't that I feel their salaries are too high, it's just that it's a little disturbing to know they don't want anyone (especially the members) to know how much they make. Honestly, they deserve every penny. They sacrifice and give up a lot. But as leaders, they need to give the members a little bit of credit and trust us. Distrust does not breed faith. I bet even Dallin might agree with that.
I totally agree with you. There is no way I would ever want to be prophet--it's just too much work. If it was up to me, I would increase all their salaries to at least a billion dollars a year, even Boyd's.
The main point I was trying to make, wasn't that I feel their salaries are too high, it's just that it's a little disturbing to know they don't want anyone (especially the members) to know how much they make. Honestly, they deserve every penny. They sacrifice and give up a lot. But as leaders, they need to give the members a little bit of credit and trust us. Distrust does not breed faith. I bet even Dallin might agree with that.
dpamm | 12:19 a.m. Sept. 12, 2007
There's one overriding reason the Church's apology is stated the way
it is which has nothing to do with how the members or leadership of the Church
actually feel about what happened.
The exact phrase "profound regret" is not considered legally binding. The words "sorry" or "apologize" are. If the Church used either of these words the MMM descendants (and probably other claimants) could and would sue the Church for literally hundreds of millions of dollars. And they would win.
The State of Illinois backed down from "apology" to "regret" in the very same way a few years ago when addressing the abuses and murders inflicted on the Church in the 1840's. Same reason for using (and avoiding) the same terms.
The Church's main source of revenue to run itself is tithing, which is a very large sacrifice by its members and in many cases it truly is the widow's mite. The Church is NOT going to expose the deep financial sacrifices of its faithful members to this level of legal risk.
Nearly all active Mormons I know are basically good people and do feel very sorry for what happened to the victims that terrible day. But it also would not be right to give their descendants and their lawyers hundreds of millions of dollars for it and run the Church into bankruptcy. Thank our wonderful US legal system for the wording used -- not the Church.
The exact phrase "profound regret" is not considered legally binding. The words "sorry" or "apologize" are. If the Church used either of these words the MMM descendants (and probably other claimants) could and would sue the Church for literally hundreds of millions of dollars. And they would win.
The State of Illinois backed down from "apology" to "regret" in the very same way a few years ago when addressing the abuses and murders inflicted on the Church in the 1840's. Same reason for using (and avoiding) the same terms.
The Church's main source of revenue to run itself is tithing, which is a very large sacrifice by its members and in many cases it truly is the widow's mite. The Church is NOT going to expose the deep financial sacrifices of its faithful members to this level of legal risk.
Nearly all active Mormons I know are basically good people and do feel very sorry for what happened to the victims that terrible day. But it also would not be right to give their descendants and their lawyers hundreds of millions of dollars for it and run the Church into bankruptcy. Thank our wonderful US legal system for the wording used -- not the Church.
FD | 12:38 a.m. Sept. 12, 2007
Peterneal; I went to GOOGLE and went through many articles and found nothing
that said that Pres. Hinkley drew a$500000 salary. Only the statement that they
recieved a"modest salary".I to have busted my behind doing church work
and have never asked or wanted to get any thing in return.I don't care what
"modest salary " they get, and don't get all worked up about it
as you have.In fact busting my behind has probably cost me $$$. Amen to what
O.L. had to say.
D O'Brien | 12:40 a.m. Sept. 12, 2007
It's the 21st Century, folks! Since the LDS Church has had to offer some
type of apology for a tragic event during the mid-1800's, I think it's
time for the Catholic Church to issue an apology for all of its persecutions
(Inquisition and the like) as well as Lutherans and other descendent Protestant
groups for their part in the religious wars that killed Catholics in Europe
during the Reformation. Where are the apologies from Churches whose members
were involved in the Hahn's Mill Massacre of Mormons???
johannes Climacus | 12:43 a.m. Sept. 12, 2007
RE: Suzanne,
True, it is unlikely that anyone off the streets can just walk into an organization's head office and request to view historical documents. But the church denying general membership--a membership that pays 10% of their income to the church--access to historical records? That is a bit strange. If the church employs a lay ministry, what right do the leaders have to keep information from the members? Common sense seems to say that all interested parties should have equal access to the records. I agree with most of the others: What are the church leaders trying to hide? Surely they aren't worrying that the Tanners would write another book based on newly released records. No one cares about the Tanners. No one reads their garbage. It seems like they're worried the general membership might find out something they don't want them to.
True, it is unlikely that anyone off the streets can just walk into an organization's head office and request to view historical documents. But the church denying general membership--a membership that pays 10% of their income to the church--access to historical records? That is a bit strange. If the church employs a lay ministry, what right do the leaders have to keep information from the members? Common sense seems to say that all interested parties should have equal access to the records. I agree with most of the others: What are the church leaders trying to hide? Surely they aren't worrying that the Tanners would write another book based on newly released records. No one cares about the Tanners. No one reads their garbage. It seems like they're worried the general membership might find out something they don't want them to.
AZBoy | 12:43 a.m. Sept. 12, 2007
Its a sad tale...and that's what it has become...a tale.
I cannot and will not apologize for actions of somebody who lived 150 years ago. Whiners, complainers, and yes that includes some of you LDS members need to quit crying over spilt milk.
I cannot and will not apologize for actions of somebody who lived 150 years ago. Whiners, complainers, and yes that includes some of you LDS members need to quit crying over spilt milk.
Disgusted | 12:57 a.m. Sept. 12, 2007
As I have wasted my time reading these pathetic, close-minded comments I have
reached a point of true discouragement. I LOVE my LDS religion. I am proud of my
ancestors who went through hell fighting for what they believe in! I do not
appreciate the constant bashing of our church!!!! If one person has wronged you,
who happened to be a member of the church, I am sorry. But take it up with that
person, not the church. I have not come across one member of this amazing,
wonderful, caring religion who has out rightly bashed on other religions.
Believe as you will, that�s why we live in this amazing
country that brings so many cultures and beliefs together to form a more perfect
place. But PLEASE I beg of all of you haters, STOP IT!! I am sick of the hatred
and constant bashing of our church. Let us live and believe without the
bantering and out-right loathing.
Paul | 1:03 a.m. Sept. 12, 2007
Most of Hitlers brain trust were Catholic. Did the Catholic church order the
extermination of Jews? What did Brigham Young and the leadership of the LDS
church have to do with this massacare? Some local Mormons went beserk in anger
over reported inflamatroy rhectoric of the travellers and were punsihed. Am I
missing something? What does the LDS church have to do with this?
CB | 1:42 a.m. Sept. 12, 2007
"Let the lying lips be put to silence; which speak grievous things proudly
and contemptuously against the righteous." Psalms 31:18
Only they who were there really know what happened and why. Even their writings will not reveal all, nor record all. May they rest in peace.
Only they who were there really know what happened and why. Even their writings will not reveal all, nor record all. May they rest in peace.
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