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Approval of mine plans flayed
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Confused. | 12:54 a.m. Sept. 6, 2007
What is the average magnitude of "bumps". This one in question
certainly seems within the magnitude of an earthquake or other. Soon after this
tragedy happened, a small city close by also experienced seismic activity but
was reported as an earthquake and it was not nearly as great in magnitude as the
one reported at the mine. I am confused.
Tiny | 4:55 a.m. Sept. 6, 2007
I agree with Senator Specter, Bob Murray needs to answer alot of questions and
not hide from this committee. If he won't come out of hiding and face the
music, he should be forced to be present. It was his mine, he sent those miners
in there.
Patata Brava | 6:58 a.m. Sept. 6, 2007
Good for congress! Yes, I am so happy that they are there watching out for us
when something has happened. You know, when something has already happened.
When tragedy has struck. That way they can get on TV by holding
"hearings". They can look oh so concerned, question the "bad
guy" and ask the oh-so-obvious questions.
It must be too much to ask for them to hold hearings before something bad happens. You know, be proactive. As it is, this just makes them look like what most of them were before they went to Congress - Ambulance Chasers.
It must be too much to ask for them to hold hearings before something bad happens. You know, be proactive. As it is, this just makes them look like what most of them were before they went to Congress - Ambulance Chasers.
Comments continue below
Flayed or Flawed it's crazy | 7:38 a.m. Sept. 6, 2007
In the early days of coal mining they did it by strip mining. I suspect one of
the reasons was the deposits of coal are rather thick and very long. It was the
most economical and safest way to get to the product. The environmental problem
was it left a huge swath (like open pits leace a huge hole) devoid of everything
which doesn't look pretty.
Well there are ways, as we have found over the years to cope with such situations. The overburden (junk soil that doesn't contain coal) could be reclaimed and put back into the strip mining area. Sure it would leave a bowl like depression. With care a stream or two can be diverted into it and eventually there's a lake.
The reclamation of old strip and open pit mines was not even considered until the latter part of the last century. But, for some reason known only to them, the environmental groups that shut down the strip mining, never picked up the banner of reclaoation on the ole mines or would allow it on new ones.
Well there are ways, as we have found over the years to cope with such situations. The overburden (junk soil that doesn't contain coal) could be reclaimed and put back into the strip mining area. Sure it would leave a bowl like depression. With care a stream or two can be diverted into it and eventually there's a lake.
The reclamation of old strip and open pit mines was not even considered until the latter part of the last century. But, for some reason known only to them, the environmental groups that shut down the strip mining, never picked up the banner of reclaoation on the ole mines or would allow it on new ones.
the Little guy | 7:46 a.m. Sept. 6, 2007
I was at the hearing yesterday, and although I agree there is more to be looked
into and many more questions to be answered, it seemed Senator Specter was just
trying to make Stickler look like he was lying. Specter was clearly ignorant of
some of the information that he was accusing Stickler and MSHA of doing.
Not a Politician | 8:31 a.m. Sept. 6, 2007
I like Patata Brava's comments. All politicians are nothing but a bunch of
knee-jerk reactors trying to keep themselves in office. If they're so great
at "oversight", why aren't they overseeing things before
disasters happen?
What is a bump? | 8:51 a.m. Sept. 6, 2007
Isn't the real word for a "bump" a "collapse?" It would
make sense that when you remove material from underground something, somewhere,
sometime is going to fill that void. I like the reclamation idea presented by
Flayed.
As for congress coming in after the fact, I heard on KSL Tuesday night that the Republican controlled Senate denied the approval of Stickler twice, but President Bush appointed him during the recess of Congress. (In the past week we've learned what congressmen do on recess, haven't we. ;) So they were involved before things went boom.
I'm hoping the good news will be this will lead to more development of alternative energy sources. It's time to come into the 21st century.
As for congress coming in after the fact, I heard on KSL Tuesday night that the Republican controlled Senate denied the approval of Stickler twice, but President Bush appointed him during the recess of Congress. (In the past week we've learned what congressmen do on recess, haven't we. ;) So they were involved before things went boom.
I'm hoping the good news will be this will lead to more development of alternative energy sources. It's time to come into the 21st century.
A good question | 9:24 a.m. Sept. 6, 2007
Since the official investigation is still ongoing, how do these
"experts" know the mining plan was flawed or the mine was inherently
unsafe?
Other than it was owned by a evangelical Christian being mined by non-union workers, of course.
Other than it was owned by a evangelical Christian being mined by non-union workers, of course.
Alex | 9:37 a.m. Sept. 6, 2007
What does "flayed" mean exactly?
PGNative | 10:28 a.m. Sept. 6, 2007
Grandstanding is a popular passtime for elected officials. Murray knows about
grandstanding too.
Fly_on_the_wall | 10:35 a.m. Sept. 6, 2007
Murray Energy recently purchased the mine. I wonder why the former owners sold
the mine to Murray Energy. Did the previous owners know something? Did any
of the mine engineers, who knew the mine well, stay to work for Murray Energy?
If so did Murray Energy listen to the mine engineers who had experience with the
mine? Just a few thoughts going through my head.
I agree with alex | 11:27 a.m. Sept. 6, 2007
Flayed? What a silly word. Hey News webbies, how about a different word?
Flayed is flawed. Your use of flayed is flayed. Readers "flay" News
webbies for flawed flay.
Hey Alex | 11:38 a.m. Sept. 6, 2007
I think it is something you get at a McDonalds. A fish flay sandwich. So the
story is about mine food and how they should flay it so it tastes better.
Web gnome | 11:44 a.m. Sept. 6, 2007
Whew! Am I glad the webbies didn't flay my comment. I hate it when I'm
flayed.
Paul | 11:59 a.m. Sept. 6, 2007
I am happy to see some one looking at the mine planning. These things can be
avoided using the computerized mine plan
Qweenmum | 12:14 p.m. Sept. 6, 2007
I wonder... does this investigation have ANYTHING to do with the fact this was a
non-union mine? Hummm. What a thought.
Mark | 12:32 p.m. Sept. 6, 2007
No Qweenum, it has to do with the fact that there were nine lives lost in that
mine. Save the anti-union spin for election time.
KH | 12:37 p.m. Sept. 6, 2007
Back in Washington and here in Utah, there has been a lot of attention focused
on Bob Murray (his mine plan was bad, he didn't inform the families enough,
he needs to bring closure to this thing, etc).
I would like to point out that Bill Murray's company is just a "CO-owner" of the Crandall Cayon Mine. He owns 50%. Does anyone remember who owns the other 50%?
The answer is, Rocky Mountain Power.
Has anyone heard Rocky Mountain Power being flayed by the politicians or the media? They had to sign off on the mining plan too, they should have been involved in the rescue efforts and keeping the families and the media just like Murray. Has anyone ever heard Gov. Huntsman, the media or bloggers contributing to this converstation b-rating Rocky Mountain Power?
Has anyone ever wondered why RMPs ownership and roll in the incident is never mentioned and people just go after Bob Murray?
I would like to point out that Bill Murray's company is just a "CO-owner" of the Crandall Cayon Mine. He owns 50%. Does anyone remember who owns the other 50%?
The answer is, Rocky Mountain Power.
Has anyone heard Rocky Mountain Power being flayed by the politicians or the media? They had to sign off on the mining plan too, they should have been involved in the rescue efforts and keeping the families and the media just like Murray. Has anyone ever heard Gov. Huntsman, the media or bloggers contributing to this converstation b-rating Rocky Mountain Power?
Has anyone ever wondered why RMPs ownership and roll in the incident is never mentioned and people just go after Bob Murray?
Anonymous | 12:46 p.m. Sept. 6, 2007
I think the investigations are a result of both, - because there are 9 miners
lost and missing, and also due to the fact it is not a unionized mine.
Anonymous | 1:34 p.m. Sept. 6, 2007
Murray has major blood on his hands. From the day the accident occured, Murray
was trying to spin some "earthquake" story and made certain all the
national media focusd on the fact that an earthquake caused the disaster. Even
after the U Of U scientists made clear that there was no earth quake, Murray
kept beating the same drum as if he wanted to quickly cover this whole thing as
an act of God and bury it. The real truth is starting to come out now and Murray
is in big trouble. Murray knew that retreat mining was dangerous but kept
insisting otherwise to the media. Murray wanted the coal in that mine and if it
took retreat mining to get it out then so bit it.
Karen | 2:43 p.m. Sept. 6, 2007
BRAVO Mark!!! Thank you for speaking the truth. There has been very little of
the "truth" from the beginning. Nine men were lost to their families
forever. They will miss birthdays, graduations, weddings and other milestones
long after the people in Washington have gone home.
Anonymous | 3:48 p.m. Sept. 6, 2007
Is there any other expertise outside the University of Utah that can confirm it
was not an earthquake? Initially they did say that it was an earthquake, then
changed their assessment.
retired miner | 4:08 p.m. Sept. 6, 2007
Rocky Mountain Power has nothing to do with any of this.Its IPP. A bump in a
mine is an EARTH QUAKE plain and simple. you can't strip mine coal thats
1800 feet deep no way no how!!! yes bob murray needs to answer some questions
but i dont see peaple asking the other owners(IPP) any of those questions and
ANDALEX the previous owner has never been mentioned why is that?? Have they been
ask to appear??? didnt hear anything about that did any of you??? Spector has no
idea what he is talking about and Stickler is going to blame anyone he can to
hide whats going down here. McAteers statment is so bogus that no one should buy
it becouse there is no way to tell when a BUMP is going to happen. Do you think
the miner would have went in there if they knew it was going to bounce that
hard? harder then anyone in msha has ever seen? The UMWA which by the way i
support has no bussiness even being at these hearings. I hope this clears a
little of this up and gives the des. news a little to look at thanks.
Qweenmum | 4:14 p.m. Sept. 6, 2007
My point is that it is a awful thing that nine lives were lost. BUT, congress
should keep it's nose out for now. You honestly can't tell me that
they are suddenly experts in this? Let the families mourn. I truly feel the
ONLY reason this is in some committee is not because 9 lives were lost, but
because it was a non union shop. Congress could care less about lives. They
care about cash and votes.
Anonymous | 4:50 p.m. Sept. 6, 2007
NO disrespect to the UofU intended - just wondered if there was another body of
expertise that could also confirm their assessment.
Price Utah | 4:54 p.m. Sept. 6, 2007
To: Fly_On_The_Wall
The previous owners Andalex Resources knew these mines were pretty much mined out, both Genwal aka Crandall Canyon and also the Tower Mine north of Price have been Long-walled which removes most of the coal, I assume Andalex figured it was a good time to sell. Most of the Managers and Engineers from Andalex stayed and work for Murray Energy, and most of those folks have worked the mines in this area for years and have a lot of knowledge of the conditions. Don't know if Murray listened to them, I assume he did, personally I think Murray wanted to get his investment back and the only way he could do it was getting the maximum amount of coal that he could from that mine, and we have all seen the results, there is just some coal you have to leave for ceiling support, you cant "strip mine" underground.
The previous owners Andalex Resources knew these mines were pretty much mined out, both Genwal aka Crandall Canyon and also the Tower Mine north of Price have been Long-walled which removes most of the coal, I assume Andalex figured it was a good time to sell. Most of the Managers and Engineers from Andalex stayed and work for Murray Energy, and most of those folks have worked the mines in this area for years and have a lot of knowledge of the conditions. Don't know if Murray listened to them, I assume he did, personally I think Murray wanted to get his investment back and the only way he could do it was getting the maximum amount of coal that he could from that mine, and we have all seen the results, there is just some coal you have to leave for ceiling support, you cant "strip mine" underground.
retired miner | 5:25 p.m. Sept. 6, 2007
Who was the mine superintendent at crandall? Who was the engineers? why arent
they at the hearings they know more than anyone else what was going on. who was
the last msha inspector to do a quarterly inspection at Crandall? what were his
findings?seems just like wilberg the ones that knew were never ask and will in
fact never be ask by the way I know the answers to my own questions but someone
else can find it out. I just hope and pray more good comes from this then it did
at the wilberg msha investagation, ask anyone that worked there the truth was
not relevent.
Ken Goddard | 5:54 p.m. Sept. 6, 2007
Any idiot can be a monday morning quarterback. The real problem is our greed
based society and all of the enengy use caused by excess consumption and the
prime pumping of a "war" economy. We can thank the republicons for
this. But it won't go on forever. In fact, it is long in the tooth.
paulemdenmartin | 8:09 p.m. Sept. 6, 2007
This article was informative but predictable.
When will the Desert Morning News act on its duty as a member of the fourth estate.
Will the DMN be the "voice of the miners" and lead the efforts to bring all those responsible for these deaths to pay for thier negligence?
Does the DMN have what it takes?
Can you shine a bright light on the local and state agencies to insure that they are pursuing those who contributed to these deaths?
In memory of Paul Emden Martin February 10 1954 Harmarville Pa.
Paul E. Martin
pmartin6@charter.net
When will the Desert Morning News act on its duty as a member of the fourth estate.
Will the DMN be the "voice of the miners" and lead the efforts to bring all those responsible for these deaths to pay for thier negligence?
Does the DMN have what it takes?
Can you shine a bright light on the local and state agencies to insure that they are pursuing those who contributed to these deaths?
In memory of Paul Emden Martin February 10 1954 Harmarville Pa.
Paul E. Martin
pmartin6@charter.net
Anonymous | 8:55 p.m. Sept. 6, 2007
The USGS, University of Utah and the University of California all said it was a
mine collapse with the magnitude of a tactical nuclear device? You within a
hundred years of a atomic warhead you need more than prayers. Why do you think
Murray drill one hole at a time? He was buying time.
Murray seems to reflect the values of many Deseret News readers. If you didn't know the world's best seismic experts disagreed with Murray you weren't reading or your news source omitted important information.
Murray seems to reflect the values of many Deseret News readers. If you didn't know the world's best seismic experts disagreed with Murray you weren't reading or your news source omitted important information.
yeah right | 9:42 p.m. Sept. 6, 2007
And if you never been there and seen a bounce you would beleive, them go to the
u of u seismic site you can see were every mine is from the bounces that
register as an earth quake becouse THATS WHAT THEY ARE Earth Quake,A trembling
of the earths crust coused by volcanic forces or (SHIFTING OF ROCK) thats from
the websters new world dictionary it dont say except if bob murrays mining there
or unless some one else says its not one one thing experts all have in common is
most of the time there wrong!
Price Utah | 10:08 p.m. Sept. 6, 2007
yeah right::
Your writing skills are about as good as your thinking ones....
Your writing skills are about as good as your thinking ones....
stressed | 9:04 a.m. Sept. 20, 2007
Bumps and earth quakes are similar in that they are both methods of releasing
energy which has built up in the earth. Small bumps occur all the time in coal
mining which happens under deep burden, even as the entries are being developed
in solid coal. From looking at the Mine map of the Main West chain pillars area,
three common sense rules were broken;
1) the mining area was surrounded by "gob" on three sides.
2) the pillar line was too wide, which slowed the retreat process down, allowing the pillars still in place to load excessively. Ground control over the coal seam is based on two principles; suspension and lamination. But these can only effectively control the mine roof up to ten or twelve feet. The ground control issues at Crandall Canyon obviously went well beyond this. The pillars and the barriers are the bridge abuttments which support the roof beam. If the beam is too long, it deflects too much, and the pillars are excessively loaded, i.e., their design strengths are exceeded.
1) the mining area was surrounded by "gob" on three sides.
2) the pillar line was too wide, which slowed the retreat process down, allowing the pillars still in place to load excessively. Ground control over the coal seam is based on two principles; suspension and lamination. But these can only effectively control the mine roof up to ten or twelve feet. The ground control issues at Crandall Canyon obviously went well beyond this. The pillars and the barriers are the bridge abuttments which support the roof beam. If the beam is too long, it deflects too much, and the pillars are excessively loaded, i.e., their design strengths are exceeded.
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Dennis Cook, Associated Press
Richard Stickler, head of the Mine Safety and Health Administration, testifies in Washington Wednesday.
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