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Going underground — LDS Church asks to buy land under streets
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Tallie | 9:06 p.m. Sept. 5, 2007
In all reality your tithing does go to help the poor. The money to purchase the
roads comes from investments...
Erick | 9:10 p.m. Sept. 5, 2007
You don't want 'your' city developed by the church? You mean
'our city' don't you? There are many who live and work here who
are glad that someone is willing to make the city look better. And we also have
the right to have a say in what happens here.
The church also has the right to purchase property and conduct its activities the same as other organizations.
It is a little late to say you don't want the church to help develop the city, they have only been doing that for about 158 years (after their members founded the city, of course.)
Give the money to the city? You mean the city that let the downtown area fall into disrepair a number of years ago so that the church had to step in and refurbish it? You obviously don't know how much the church already spends on helping other people and beautifying its surroundings.
On the other hand, maybe the church should keep its money and let the residents pay extra taxes to build parking areas. I'm sure that would get a lot of support.
The church also has the right to purchase property and conduct its activities the same as other organizations.
It is a little late to say you don't want the church to help develop the city, they have only been doing that for about 158 years (after their members founded the city, of course.)
Give the money to the city? You mean the city that let the downtown area fall into disrepair a number of years ago so that the church had to step in and refurbish it? You obviously don't know how much the church already spends on helping other people and beautifying its surroundings.
On the other hand, maybe the church should keep its money and let the residents pay extra taxes to build parking areas. I'm sure that would get a lot of support.
Comments continue below
Jeff P | 9:36 p.m. Sept. 5, 2007
People certainly get bitter on the net, huh? I think it's great that the
LDS Church want's to build underground parking. I'd rather the city
do a 50/100 year lease of the property rather than selling it outright though.
I really don't see why anybody would be upset with them flipping the bill
for it though. Anything to make downtown a place where people want to get to
and are ABLE to get to. ie: being able to park.
While we are doing all this good can we get some good restaraunt/bars/stores along main street and other downtown streets? I can only hope for the day when I can go downtown in the morning and find entertainment thru the afternoon.
While we are doing all this good can we get some good restaraunt/bars/stores along main street and other downtown streets? I can only hope for the day when I can go downtown in the morning and find entertainment thru the afternoon.
Vegas Ed | 11:09 p.m. Sept. 5, 2007
The church only helps all of Utah, and the intermountain west. The plaza built
north of the temple has only beautified downtown, and caused very little traffic
problems. If money made from investments and the money making entities of the
church go to beautifying other parts of downtown SLC great.
I just wish Vegas wasn't just run by the casinos, but that's the way it is. SLC anti's should get over their hate and look at the good done.
I just wish Vegas wasn't just run by the casinos, but that's the way it is. SLC anti's should get over their hate and look at the good done.
Jim | 11:27 p.m. Sept. 5, 2007
I live near Los Angeles. One church was allowed to build a cathedral on public
land that was bought for pennies on the dollar. Downtown was a traffic
nightmare, and the people paid for all the infrastructure improvements. Salt
Lake should be overjoyed with what the LDS church has done, is doing and will do
for your downtown.
Peter O. | 12:25 a.m. Sept. 6, 2007
There is an outdoor public ice skating rink downtown - it's rather small,
but is located at Gallivan Plaza. Between 200 and 300 south and between Main
and State streets.
Martine | 6:57 a.m. Sept. 6, 2007
Tia,
I was present at the state legislature when the Olympic committee publically gave state leaders a check for a refund to the state. No, the Olympics did not leave the state in the red. It may have been in the order of $150,000--I'm not sure and don't have time to research it. Mitt Romney turned the financials around.
I was present at the state legislature when the Olympic committee publically gave state leaders a check for a refund to the state. No, the Olympics did not leave the state in the red. It may have been in the order of $150,000--I'm not sure and don't have time to research it. Mitt Romney turned the financials around.
Red | 8:40 a.m. Sept. 6, 2007
You have to be kidding if you think Mitt did anything. He was just the poster
child, don't give him any credit.
And $150,000, if true, doesn't mean anything compared to the millions they were in debt for. It was just a publicity stunt to make them look like they were doing well.
And $150,000, if true, doesn't mean anything compared to the millions they were in debt for. It was just a publicity stunt to make them look like they were doing well.
grundle | 10:03 a.m. Sept. 6, 2007
NorthboundZax - Thanks for your clarification.
As an LDS bishop I know that the contributions of my "poor" ward numbers in the $1300 p/month range and I assume that to be representitive of the general contributions for the many wards in the US. Extrapolating that figure, adding it to the countless hours of volunteer time and work for humanitarian cause, and the contributions of the church, I had the idea that the 2 billion dollars that the church is spending downtown was far less than the money that was being spent for charitable causes.
I also believe that the money spent on the downtown area in Salt lake city could be considered charitable at some level as it is a private investment to be enjoyed by all. I find it sad that the naysayers and critsizers of the church cannot see a gift when it is presented.
As an LDS bishop I know that the contributions of my "poor" ward numbers in the $1300 p/month range and I assume that to be representitive of the general contributions for the many wards in the US. Extrapolating that figure, adding it to the countless hours of volunteer time and work for humanitarian cause, and the contributions of the church, I had the idea that the 2 billion dollars that the church is spending downtown was far less than the money that was being spent for charitable causes.
I also believe that the money spent on the downtown area in Salt lake city could be considered charitable at some level as it is a private investment to be enjoyed by all. I find it sad that the naysayers and critsizers of the church cannot see a gift when it is presented.
Anonymous | 11:45 a.m. Sept. 6, 2007
see, that's thing thing...it's not a gift when there are strings
attached
Anonymous | 11:51 a.m. Sept. 6, 2007
see, that's thing thing...it's not a gift when there are strings
attached
grundle | 3:43 p.m. Sept. 6, 2007
NorthboundZax -
According to the figures posted by the LDS Church's website -
2006 saw aprox. 1 billion dollars worth of charitable donations...
in the form of cash ($200,000,000),
material (750,000,000),
and donated labor(100,000,000).
My original assertion stands. (see my first post on this thread)
Also...anonymous...The only strings attached are that you behave while on church property. I believe that would be the rule for all private property.
Dnews...Why do you keep censoring my posts? I have never resorted to namecalling or been disrespectful and research my postings before submission! What gives??
According to the figures posted by the LDS Church's website -
2006 saw aprox. 1 billion dollars worth of charitable donations...
in the form of cash ($200,000,000),
material (750,000,000),
and donated labor(100,000,000).
My original assertion stands. (see my first post on this thread)
Also...anonymous...The only strings attached are that you behave while on church property. I believe that would be the rule for all private property.
Dnews...Why do you keep censoring my posts? I have never resorted to namecalling or been disrespectful and research my postings before submission! What gives??
desnews | 5:48 p.m. Sept. 6, 2007
is church owned...of course they censor
Matt | 8:57 p.m. Sept. 6, 2007
Hey Grudle -
I'm having a hard time finding that on the lds website. where should i look?
I'm having a hard time finding that on the lds website. where should i look?
Matt | 12:12 a.m. Sept. 7, 2007
Hey, Grundle - I found it!
The way you put it in your post
"2006 saw aprox. 1 billion dollars worth of ....."
makes the reader believe that IN 2006 your church donated 1,000,000,000 worth of etc etc etc.
What you should have noted is from the LDS website is: "FROM 1985 TO 2006 the total donations were 1,000,000,000".
Grundle, that is a HUGE difference.
I'm glad that this organization is doing some good in the world for the suffering & such, but don't use that to justify spending $2,000,000,000 on a shopping center. That ALONE would pay for humanitarian aid for the next 44 years.
The way you put it in your post
"2006 saw aprox. 1 billion dollars worth of ....."
makes the reader believe that IN 2006 your church donated 1,000,000,000 worth of etc etc etc.
What you should have noted is from the LDS website is: "FROM 1985 TO 2006 the total donations were 1,000,000,000".
Grundle, that is a HUGE difference.
I'm glad that this organization is doing some good in the world for the suffering & such, but don't use that to justify spending $2,000,000,000 on a shopping center. That ALONE would pay for humanitarian aid for the next 44 years.
haha | 9:54 a.m. Sept. 7, 2007
thanks for pointing that our matt!
D | 10:14 a.m. Sept. 7, 2007
And do you contribute to the humanitarian aid?
grundle | 11:20 a.m. Sept. 7, 2007
Matt -
Thanks for pointing that out...It is true that I overlooked that fact.
I am confused though...If the stated cash donations were for 200 million dollars, that would translate to aprox. 9 million per year. That figure would not begin to account for the fast offering amounts that are collected monthly.
So...I wonder what figure the church is reporting? As I stated earlier...My ward contributes about $1300 per month (and I live in a lower income area) and a co-worker who is also a bishop reports that his ward contributes far more than that monthly...
I suspect that the figure the church is reporting for humanitarian cash donations do not account for the fast offerings, service donations, etc...?
Another point...you stated that I should not use the charitable spending to justify the 2 billion dollar investment into SLC downtown...I do not believe that the church needs to justify its spending on SLC downtown improvements. I was pointing out that the church spends enourmous amounts of money, time, and resources in charitable causes. I was under the impression that the amounts were greater than they are reporting (still am) but the point still stands.
Thanks for pointing that out...It is true that I overlooked that fact.
I am confused though...If the stated cash donations were for 200 million dollars, that would translate to aprox. 9 million per year. That figure would not begin to account for the fast offering amounts that are collected monthly.
So...I wonder what figure the church is reporting? As I stated earlier...My ward contributes about $1300 per month (and I live in a lower income area) and a co-worker who is also a bishop reports that his ward contributes far more than that monthly...
I suspect that the figure the church is reporting for humanitarian cash donations do not account for the fast offerings, service donations, etc...?
Another point...you stated that I should not use the charitable spending to justify the 2 billion dollar investment into SLC downtown...I do not believe that the church needs to justify its spending on SLC downtown improvements. I was pointing out that the church spends enourmous amounts of money, time, and resources in charitable causes. I was under the impression that the amounts were greater than they are reporting (still am) but the point still stands.
actually | 11:29 a.m. Sept. 7, 2007
I do, and it'a a great deal bigger of a percentage of my pay than the money
the "church" has given from investments and tithing money.
Matt | 12:28 p.m. Sept. 7, 2007
Grundle-
You are right. your church has no need to justify anything, but please don't say that it's okay for them to spend all this money on the mall because they spend way more on humanitiarian aid.
BTW, the 200 million dollars over 22 years means less than $1.17 per member per year.
I give more than that to humanitiarian aid, yessiree.
You are right. your church has no need to justify anything, but please don't say that it's okay for them to spend all this money on the mall because they spend way more on humanitiarian aid.
BTW, the 200 million dollars over 22 years means less than $1.17 per member per year.
I give more than that to humanitiarian aid, yessiree.
Matt | 12:38 p.m. Sept. 7, 2007
Grundle -
I've tried a number of times to respond (nothing argumentative, just facts) but keep getting denied. Not faith promoting i guess....
Anyway, it has always been my understanding that the fast offerings were to be used locally and have nothing to do with humanitarian aid. Humanitarian aid comes out of tithing dollars.
As I said, that was my understanding, nobody from the actual church would clairfy for me.
I've tried a number of times to respond (nothing argumentative, just facts) but keep getting denied. Not faith promoting i guess....
Anyway, it has always been my understanding that the fast offerings were to be used locally and have nothing to do with humanitarian aid. Humanitarian aid comes out of tithing dollars.
As I said, that was my understanding, nobody from the actual church would clairfy for me.
NorthboundZax | 5:12 p.m. Sept. 7, 2007
Matt, thanks for sorting that out. grundle had me worried for a bit that
President Hinckley had led me astray.
I think you are right that fast offerings are not tallied in the humanitarian aid column because it is the organization helping its own, so to speak - not the same as humanitarian aid. Besides, as I pointed out earlier, that money was never discretionary and the church is only acting as executor rather than patron. However, FWIW the church considerably increased its humanitarian aid in 1995, coinciding with adding it to the tithing slip as its own category. I don't think much tithing is required to fund present efforts. However, with the large uptick since 1995, you will have to revise your 44 year number down to 22.
I think you are right that fast offerings are not tallied in the humanitarian aid column because it is the organization helping its own, so to speak - not the same as humanitarian aid. Besides, as I pointed out earlier, that money was never discretionary and the church is only acting as executor rather than patron. However, FWIW the church considerably increased its humanitarian aid in 1995, coinciding with adding it to the tithing slip as its own category. I don't think much tithing is required to fund present efforts. However, with the large uptick since 1995, you will have to revise your 44 year number down to 22.
talktokeri | 5:10 p.m. Sept. 9, 2007
I wonder what would happen to downtown SLC if the LDS church packed up all of
its offices and moved to some other location? I'd be happy if they moved
here to Arkansas and helped us with city improvements!
Brigmum | 5:32 p.m. Sept. 9, 2007
Don't forget that they will pick up and move back to Independence.
To Matt | 11:59 a.m. Sept. 15, 2007
When the church announced this project they indicated no tithing money would be
used to fund it. All of the money will come from investments the Church has made
as part of it's business arm.
Sacred Funds | 9:19 a.m. Nov. 20, 2007
The LDS Church has never had any money other than Tithing money. Their
"investment" income is a revenue stream created by the investment of
Tithing money. Every penny the Church has is sacred and does not belong to the
Church; it belongs to God.
To admit otherwise is to admit that the LDS Church really IS just a big business!
To admit otherwise is to admit that the LDS Church really IS just a big business!
jake | 10:05 a.m. Nov. 20, 2007
The Church does a masterful job of keeping their crown jewel nice and pretty.
But they get the money from poor, starving, huge families, and elderly couples, and retired singles...
...all to build their palace in downtown SLC.
I don't consider that to be admirable.
But they get the money from poor, starving, huge families, and elderly couples, and retired singles...
...all to build their palace in downtown SLC.
I don't consider that to be admirable.
dcguy | 10:25 a.m. Nov. 20, 2007
I stumbled upon this site (not mormon) and read the article and now i am quite
amused. For a country founded on religious freedom, some of these comments are
absurd. Who cares where the money comes from. It is a private organization that
is fiscally responsible. I think it is disgusting how people refuse to
acknowledge something positive just because it is from a church that they do not
belong to. Please explain to my why there is this prejudice?
This isn't tithing money! | 11:30 a.m. Nov. 20, 2007
I'm really surprised people think this is all tithing money. The LDS church
is very strict with tithing and humanitarian funds. They also have extremely
well managed investments around the world in real-estate, and one of the largest
(if not the largest) cattle ranch in the nation. The Corporation of Presiding
Bishopric is a business and it uses non-tithing funds and it does a lot of good.
scooter | 11:40 a.m. Nov. 20, 2007
I do not care who is developing this project. If it ends up as a nice
development, with interesting things to see, then I will be happy. If it ends up
as yet another bland mall with all the usual chain stores, then I will be
disappointed. The LDS Church being the developer alone doesn't make the
development good or bad
Philip | 12:59 p.m. Nov. 20, 2007
I couldn't agree more with dcguy - I am English and was led to believe that
America was built on principles of religious freedom, and yet the hateful
sniping I have read on this and other sites regarding the LDS Church is
distateful in the extreme.
I can only assume that it is founded in jealousy and/or ignorance?
I can only assume that it is founded in jealousy and/or ignorance?
Owners | 2:05 p.m. Nov. 20, 2007
It isn't safe to walk Salt Lake streets on the surface. How safe is it
going to be to walk in a mile wide cave?
RE: Richard G | 2:32 p.m. Nov. 20, 2007
What the heck are you even talking about. I am faithful LDS, I sport multiple
tattoos (from a former life ;) ), I hold hands with my husband frequently in
temple square (we've even kissed! Gasp!), and I'm always chewing gum.
Never once have I been reproached while in temple square for these supposed
misdeeds that you so sarcastically mention. I don't see why it matters who
is doing the developing, it needs to be done, period. I am so looking forward
to a beautiful and revitalized SLC with a lot more parking and a lot less
traffic congestion. How can anyone oppose that?
BW | 2:47 p.m. Nov. 20, 2007
Sounds to me like the church has good intentions and is eager to pave the road
to hell.
Boring... | 3:19 p.m. Nov. 20, 2007
It is threds like this that make me thankful for truly meaningful,
non-contriversial issues like the holy war... Utes vs Cougs. Now there is an
issue that is worth arguing about.
Everybody - get a life!
Everybody - get a life!
Amusing | 4:08 p.m. Nov. 20, 2007
These comments are quite amusing to read...
1. Glad a private firm is doing the investment and not tax dollars doing the downtown.
2. Olympics made $70 something million in the black after payback of the state loan. (state was refunded its $59 million loan issued to get the Olympics started.) This money is now used to run the Oval in Kearns and ski jump park in Park City. See the UAF website.
3. Underground parking is better than above ground parking stalls by the visible thousands.
4. Why so much bandwidth and wasted time on whether the church donated $1 or $1 billion on humanitarian aid?
5. Does it truly matter that the church is spending $2 billion to make downtown better (not tithing money for those think it is...)
Okay, everybody back to work...
1. Glad a private firm is doing the investment and not tax dollars doing the downtown.
2. Olympics made $70 something million in the black after payback of the state loan. (state was refunded its $59 million loan issued to get the Olympics started.) This money is now used to run the Oval in Kearns and ski jump park in Park City. See the UAF website.
3. Underground parking is better than above ground parking stalls by the visible thousands.
4. Why so much bandwidth and wasted time on whether the church donated $1 or $1 billion on humanitarian aid?
5. Does it truly matter that the church is spending $2 billion to make downtown better (not tithing money for those think it is...)
Okay, everybody back to work...
TYLER | 4:44 p.m. Nov. 20, 2007
to "Matt" sure the numbers Grundle gave you may have been off. But
here's a statistical fact from a New York Times article published last
year. The LDS church donates more than any other church in the world. Enough
said.
sr | 11:18 p.m. Nov. 20, 2007
Its all a plot to cave in the city and collect the insurance..
Conejo | 11:23 p.m. Nov. 20, 2007
To those who are offended the LDS church is using funds in this matter I would
suggest they would like to see SLC be a wasteland of broken down buildings and
inner city blight so they could claim it is the logical result of the inner
corruption of the church itself.
If it isn't "your" church then why are you concerned at all about how they spend their funds? I don't ask you why you decide to invest your money the way you do instead of helping those in need more. Next time you go out for dinner, please ask yourself if the money you are using is the best possible way to help mankind. When you are that concerned for your fellow man perhaps you can counsel others who are trying to help too.
If it isn't "your" church then why are you concerned at all about how they spend their funds? I don't ask you why you decide to invest your money the way you do instead of helping those in need more. Next time you go out for dinner, please ask yourself if the money you are using is the best possible way to help mankind. When you are that concerned for your fellow man perhaps you can counsel others who are trying to help too.
It's tithing money | 12:00 a.m. Nov. 21, 2007
Ok boys and girls. Let's be clear about one thing. Anything the church owns
NOW was either donated to the church as a tithe or offering, or is a result of
an investment in money, time, materials, or labor that was donated to the church
as a tithe or offering.
To suggest there is a difference between money that was received as tithing TODAY or 10, 20, 50, or 120 years ago, and then basically "laundered" into "non-tithing" money, is purely hand waving to confuse the ignorant, and those who wish to remain ignorant.
Who CARES how the church uses it's money? There is NOTHING anyone can do about it except pout. Get over it.
But by the same token, defending it by saying it isn't tithing? It's insulting to anyone who can extrapolate back in time far enough to see where these "church corporations" evolved from and how they were initially funded. It also insults the church. In that respect it's basically comparing the church to the mafia. Mafioso have legit businesses too. Where do you think the money came for that? Duh.
To suggest there is a difference between money that was received as tithing TODAY or 10, 20, 50, or 120 years ago, and then basically "laundered" into "non-tithing" money, is purely hand waving to confuse the ignorant, and those who wish to remain ignorant.
Who CARES how the church uses it's money? There is NOTHING anyone can do about it except pout. Get over it.
But by the same token, defending it by saying it isn't tithing? It's insulting to anyone who can extrapolate back in time far enough to see where these "church corporations" evolved from and how they were initially funded. It also insults the church. In that respect it's basically comparing the church to the mafia. Mafioso have legit businesses too. Where do you think the money came for that? Duh.
Other donations | 3:16 a.m. Nov. 21, 2007
Um...the Church accepts donations other than tithing. If I donate $10 to the
tithing fund and $50 to LDS humanitarian funds, then only the $10 is considered
tithing. The $50 will go to a separate fund and used as humanitarian aid. There
are also other funds such as fast offerings, missionary funds, and so on that do
not qualify as tithing. Tithing is strictly 10% of faithful members earnings.
Other donations are not tithing and may be used as deemed appropriate by the
Church (and the donators are made aware of this).
Scott | 7:46 a.m. Nov. 21, 2007
Funds may be donated to the Church for specific purposes (e.g., specific
Scouting events) that do not fall under the category of tithes and offerings.
If the donated funds are not fully used to the intended purpose, they are to be
returned to the donor.
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