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BYU creates 2nd film on Mayans, Olmecs
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Dee Bryant | 7:04 a.m. Aug. 24, 2007
I remember attending Priesthood meeting in the year 1957 and using as our text:
"An Approach to the Book of Mormon" by Hugh Nibley. He said that until
we find written material from the Yucatan area showing factual connections with
the Book of Mormon, we are dealing with parallels,not evidences. A recent
article in the National Geographical Magazine has a lengthy article on the
Mayans. There are no names listed among the names listed after 420 A.D. that
even suggest names similar to those mentioned in the Book of Mormon. Their
lifestyle, history, etc. are very foreign to concepts found in the Book of
Mormon. There appears to be just as many evidences found around Ohio and the
Great Lakes Region, showing the early inhabitants who lived there who have just
as many parallels relating to the Book of Mormon descendants.
Kon Tiki fan | 9:29 a.m. Aug. 24, 2007
Another great feat in research, is the first and second Kon Tiki expeditions
also featured in the same National Geographic magazine as the Maya article. The
original Kon Tiki expedition proved that travel by boat across a big expanse of
ocean anciently was not impossible. This newest boat re-enactment of the Kon
Tiki is called the "Tangaroa" and it successfully reached French
Polynesia, from Peru, in April of 2006. This type of travel is what may have
been written about in the Book of Mormon when ancient Nephites left the
America's to colonize across the seas and were never heard of more after
their second trip. Joseph Smith said they were the ancestors of Polynesians,
specifically Hawaiins (though please do not quote me as I do not have his exact
quote in front of me right now). Sacred ancient Hawaiin lore lends itself to
those possibilities I was once told by a mission companion of mine who was
almost pure Hawaiin. Of course so much of it is speculation, but it is fun to
see the mounting evidence that supports the Book of Mormon.
I got a good laugh out of a PBS special several years ago that showed an archeolgy team at a recently discovered temple site in South America. They showed off the inside of the temple, but completely ignored speaking about the incredible mural on the outside that was vividly colorful . The mural showed two groups at war with each other and the one group was significantly darker skinned than the other group. Did this represent different colored skinned peoples, like the Book of Mormon speaks of, or were the colors used simply to differentiate two different tribes at war? Not sure, but the archeologist completely ignored it while commentating in front of it. Wonder Why?
I got a good laugh out of a PBS special several years ago that showed an archeolgy team at a recently discovered temple site in South America. They showed off the inside of the temple, but completely ignored speaking about the incredible mural on the outside that was vividly colorful . The mural showed two groups at war with each other and the one group was significantly darker skinned than the other group. Did this represent different colored skinned peoples, like the Book of Mormon speaks of, or were the colors used simply to differentiate two different tribes at war? Not sure, but the archeologist completely ignored it while commentating in front of it. Wonder Why?
Ok? | 9:36 a.m. Aug. 24, 2007
I feel bad when people try to give credit where its not due in regards to my
ancestors. A while back I saw a show on the "History" Channel with a
bunch of Loons claiming that UFOs helped the Mayas build temples, and now these
"Scholars" make THIS connection? The Mesoamerican Indians were
extremely advanced, the great Mayas,Olmecs, Toltecs, and Aztecs were all
Advanced. The Mayas and Aztecs kept many WRITTEN RECORDS they were meticulous
with everything and NO WHERE do they mention the book of mormon. Its like kids
believing in Santa Clause. I used to look for clues, like look for cookies being
gone etc,. then came a time where i realized all this was just a fantasy...
Comments continue below
Nathan | 10:22 a.m. Aug. 24, 2007
Here are some connections for "OK?" Quetzaquatl, symbolized as the
serpent but the Mayans believed him to be a BEARDED white God who said he would
return. When Cortez landed in the Americas the Aztecs, who still believed in
this tradition, thought Cortez was Him.
Yes, the Mayans were very advanced especially in astronomy. In this passage of BoM, it is talking about God's power: "Yea, if he say unto the earth�Thou shalt go back, that it lengthen out the day for many hours�it is done;
And thus, according to his word the earth goeth back, and it appeareth unto man that the sun standeth still; yea, and behold, this is so; FOR SURELY IT IS THE EARTH THAT MOVETH AND NOT THE SUN." Helaman 12:14-15
There are many other similarities between BoM civilization and the Mayan civilization.
L. Taylor Hansen, a non-LDS author wrote "He Walked the Americas" describing the legends throughout all of the Americas of a bearded white person who taught about peace, healed the sick, etc.
Yes, the Mayans were very advanced especially in astronomy. In this passage of BoM, it is talking about God's power: "Yea, if he say unto the earth�Thou shalt go back, that it lengthen out the day for many hours�it is done;
And thus, according to his word the earth goeth back, and it appeareth unto man that the sun standeth still; yea, and behold, this is so; FOR SURELY IT IS THE EARTH THAT MOVETH AND NOT THE SUN." Helaman 12:14-15
There are many other similarities between BoM civilization and the Mayan civilization.
L. Taylor Hansen, a non-LDS author wrote "He Walked the Americas" describing the legends throughout all of the Americas of a bearded white person who taught about peace, healed the sick, etc.
Grandfather | 10:38 a.m. Aug. 24, 2007
Isn't it wonderful that we have Latter Day Saints who look at the
historocity of the Book of Mormon. We have been told by our modern day prophets
to study the Book of Mormon as seriously as have Bible Scholars studied the
Bible. When we seek by faith, we will find both spiritual and historical
meaning in the Book of Mormon.
Where the Nephites landed, the Mulekites landed, and where the Jaredites landed is fascinating to me. Three different peoples, mixed with Native cultures already here in the Americas -- you would think their descendents would be diligently seeking to find their historical and genealogical connections.
Whether now, or later, someday we will all know where the Book of Mormon peoples lived, thrived, and dwindled or were destroyed. And when we meet Mormon, Nephi, Alma, and other American Prophets, we will be able to say we sought to find both the spiritual and historical messages they left for us.
Where the Nephites landed, the Mulekites landed, and where the Jaredites landed is fascinating to me. Three different peoples, mixed with Native cultures already here in the Americas -- you would think their descendents would be diligently seeking to find their historical and genealogical connections.
Whether now, or later, someday we will all know where the Book of Mormon peoples lived, thrived, and dwindled or were destroyed. And when we meet Mormon, Nephi, Alma, and other American Prophets, we will be able to say we sought to find both the spiritual and historical messages they left for us.
Open Mind | 10:49 a.m. Aug. 24, 2007
Ok: Have you studied Archaeology? Not just read books, but actually taken
courses in methodology, theory, etc? Have you studied textual criticism? If you
haven't then you need to keep an open mind about what LDS scholars find.
The more I study these fields, the more I'm convinced these BYU guys are on
to something. Comparing it to kids and Santa Claus is really not fair. These are
credentialed researchers who are respectd in their acdemic fields. They're
not out there to make outlandish claims, they're doing real research. Feel
free to disagree, many professionals do, but don't dismiss them as foolish,
because you'll find that their colleagues don't coe to the same
conclusion when it comes to BYU's training and rigor.
Oracle | 11:03 a.m. Aug. 24, 2007
To the victor go the spoils. There is a Mesoamerican site where new steps (with
writing) covered original steps. The reason? To rewrite history. As it turned
out, the conquerors wanted to put their history down instead.
You will find throughout history that this is quite common. While some facts, such as the battle taking place are reliable, many details are often lost. Imagine what our record of WWII would be if Hitler won.
The point is: not finding records that talk about the "Book of Mormon" is totally expected since the Nephites were wiped out.
An exact parallel is the Philistines. Other than records from the Bible, what do we know of them? In fact much of all that history is only preserved because the Jews survived and took their records with them. After the Babylonians conquered the Philistines they ceased to be a unique people and never returned. Only until recently, due to archeological finds, do we know much about who they really were.
And this a group with history that we ALL know about.
Furthermore, when the Book of Mormon was first printed it was laughed off the shelves because the scholars of that time didn't even think civilizations existed like that in the Americas. If nothing else, the evidences show the book knew something that scientists of that day didn't believe.
Finally, even the Bible, with the surviving people and alternate records from near by civilizations is often scrutinized by the unknown. It would be truly unreasonable to think the people from the Book of Mormon, who mostly did not survive, would have any more of a clear understanding. Nothing has proven it wrong, so writing it off as fantasy, simply because it is yet to be proven true, is foolish.
You will find throughout history that this is quite common. While some facts, such as the battle taking place are reliable, many details are often lost. Imagine what our record of WWII would be if Hitler won.
The point is: not finding records that talk about the "Book of Mormon" is totally expected since the Nephites were wiped out.
An exact parallel is the Philistines. Other than records from the Bible, what do we know of them? In fact much of all that history is only preserved because the Jews survived and took their records with them. After the Babylonians conquered the Philistines they ceased to be a unique people and never returned. Only until recently, due to archeological finds, do we know much about who they really were.
And this a group with history that we ALL know about.
Furthermore, when the Book of Mormon was first printed it was laughed off the shelves because the scholars of that time didn't even think civilizations existed like that in the Americas. If nothing else, the evidences show the book knew something that scientists of that day didn't believe.
Finally, even the Bible, with the surviving people and alternate records from near by civilizations is often scrutinized by the unknown. It would be truly unreasonable to think the people from the Book of Mormon, who mostly did not survive, would have any more of a clear understanding. Nothing has proven it wrong, so writing it off as fantasy, simply because it is yet to be proven true, is foolish.
Interested in BoM Archeaology | 12:43 p.m. Aug. 24, 2007
Check out the book '1491'. This is an interesting read. The Author
is not a Mormon, but makes some interesting points about American Civilizations
pre-Columbus.
OK? | 12:54 p.m. Aug. 24, 2007
Your replies are foolish, Im sorry for that,.You guys keep talking about
Archeology! But you guys try and prove the Bom with quotes from it. Show me the
evidence! What? There is NONE? The bom talks about a numerous peoples and if
they mingled with other tribes where is the DNA? You guys should read what the
reputable Smithsonian wrote on exactly this very Subject! They Dismissed the
BOM! Nathan talked about the Mayas belief in a white bearded god represented by
Quetzalcoatl, this is true and written down by them. The problem with this is
that Jesus was not white! LDS folks are confused about this because of their
artist renditions of Christ as being white, the most famous where he is wearing
a red robe and he has colored eyes with a redish light brown beard. Jesus was
Brown but again this happens when you let your imagination run wild and dont
stick with Hard TANGILBLE FACTS! You should check out on youtube the video of
the Southpark Cartoon on Mormons, and although I think this cartoon is very
absurd, their cartoon on this subject is actually very good. May God the ONLY
ALFA AND OMEGA Bless you All, I tell you this from the bottom of my heart!
OK? | 12:57 p.m. Aug. 24, 2007
And by the way I have studied Archeology and History.
To OK? | 1:20 p.m. Aug. 24, 2007
White is just as likely to be a description of illuminance vs. skin color.
Also skin color is relative, are Jews white or black? Weak argument OK-boy.
Nathan | 1:25 p.m. Aug. 24, 2007
"OK?" I lived in Cairo for a few months and spent some time in the
National Museum. The Bible says that the Israelites spent around 400 years in
Egypt however the scholars of today can not find one shred of evidence that the
Hebrews lived in Egypt. I believe on faith that the Hebrews lived in Egypt even
though there is no evidence. By faith I believe in the creation, not the theory
of evolution. By faith I believe in Jesus Christ even though there is no
archeological evidence of Him. It is by faith that I believe in God.
The Pharisees wanted a sign from Christ to prove he was the Christ because they knew very well the prophecies concerning the Messiah but when the prophecies actually began to be fulfilled in front of their eyes, they would not believe.
Since OK? does not want to recognize any evidence, he will not see.
The Pharisees wanted a sign from Christ to prove he was the Christ because they knew very well the prophecies concerning the Messiah but when the prophecies actually began to be fulfilled in front of their eyes, they would not believe.
Since OK? does not want to recognize any evidence, he will not see.
Kon Tiki Fan | 2:59 p.m. Aug. 24, 2007
"OK"...I do not want to start a spirit of contention here, since that
is not the Lord's way, but let me say that South Park's view of Mormon
doctrine couldn't be farther from the truth of our beliefs. South Park is
NOT of God. As far as DNA goes, DNA studies are underway around the world to
connect us all to African roots. In the mural I spoke of earlier no one was
"white". They were different shades of brown, but to peoples of
ancient times who may have seen their Light browness as something better than
dark browness or blackness(such prejudices still exist today among differing
tribes in Africa) they may have refered to themselves as white in the same way
jews would have seen themselves as white against an Ethiopian.
As for Jesus being white when he visited the America's, he came as a resurrected God of great light and there fore shone like the sun but pure white.
We all must walk by faith as believers and that means the "physical evidence" of things not seen but that are true may never be found in this life. That is why the Lord gave us the Holy Spirit to teach and testify of truths we cannot find hard evidence for in our mortal world. Christians, Jews and even Muslims believe that "With God, nothing is impossible." I base my faith on the restored gospel of Jesus Christ, brought forth through his prophet Joseph Smith, and the BofM not on any physical evidence, but by a witness of the Holy Spirit. The same goes for the Bible. Recently armor was found in the Red Sea, possibly supporting where it's thought Moses crossed centuries ago, but I've always known by the power of God that it's a true story.
As for Jesus being white when he visited the America's, he came as a resurrected God of great light and there fore shone like the sun but pure white.
We all must walk by faith as believers and that means the "physical evidence" of things not seen but that are true may never be found in this life. That is why the Lord gave us the Holy Spirit to teach and testify of truths we cannot find hard evidence for in our mortal world. Christians, Jews and even Muslims believe that "With God, nothing is impossible." I base my faith on the restored gospel of Jesus Christ, brought forth through his prophet Joseph Smith, and the BofM not on any physical evidence, but by a witness of the Holy Spirit. The same goes for the Bible. Recently armor was found in the Red Sea, possibly supporting where it's thought Moses crossed centuries ago, but I've always known by the power of God that it's a true story.
Matt | 3:53 p.m. Aug. 24, 2007
To Nathan:
Your quote: "Since OK? does not want to recognize any evidence, he will not see."
My point: Mormons want to "see" to desperatly that they "see" things that aren't there.
Actually, it's not just Mormons. It's anybody who has any faith-based belief system. Muslims, Hindus, Christians & Wiccans to name a few. They will "see" things that will promote their beliefs and "not see" things which are not faith promoting.
Sad.
It would be nice if people could live in this reality and not base everything on the unknown.
Don't take some human's word at face value. Using logic, think it through.
Everybody thinks they have it all figured out. We don't. I would venture to say that 99.99 people who have ever lived are really dissapointed when they die.
Your quote: "Since OK? does not want to recognize any evidence, he will not see."
My point: Mormons want to "see" to desperatly that they "see" things that aren't there.
Actually, it's not just Mormons. It's anybody who has any faith-based belief system. Muslims, Hindus, Christians & Wiccans to name a few. They will "see" things that will promote their beliefs and "not see" things which are not faith promoting.
Sad.
It would be nice if people could live in this reality and not base everything on the unknown.
Don't take some human's word at face value. Using logic, think it through.
Everybody thinks they have it all figured out. We don't. I would venture to say that 99.99 people who have ever lived are really dissapointed when they die.
Brenden | 4:01 p.m. Aug. 24, 2007
Amazing people, the ancient Mesoamericans! From what I read, archaeologists are
only just uncovering the proverbial tip of the iceberg, even after decades of
digging. Politics, civil unrest and looters have all done their bit to make
access to many potential sites difficult. Who knows what evidences may lie
there? Until it all has been examined, cross-examined and re-examined, it seems
a little ludicrous to call for proof. And even then, the reality is that all the
supposition is still educated guesses at best. Even with all the extant written
records. Frankly, I would be amazed if any of them did mention the BOM, since it
was an abridgment of other records, compiled at the end of the period it covers
by a lone refugee, who hid it from enemies. Naturally it would not be called
"The Book of Mormon" by the people it mentions; it didn't exist
for them. The Book of Mormon never claims to be an exhaustive historical
document. That is not its point. Anyone who takes it as such is setting
themselves up for disappointment. But still, it is very interesting how many
parallels have been uncovered. Likewise, I find no great alarm that DNA tests
don't prove the Mesoamericans were Jews. I would be amazed if they did! The
people the BOM claims to follow were not of the tribe of Judah. Why would I
expect them to be genetic Jews then? The BOM says that God leads other people
here as he sees fit. I see no reason why anthropological evidence of other
ethnic groups should conflict with BOM statements. All the BOM does is give one
group's account of their dealings with God and testimony of Christ's
divinity. I would be naive to suppose they were alone, and didn't mix with
other groups.
Wise up | 4:20 p.m. Aug. 24, 2007
Yes, read the National Geographic, August edition, and continue to watch for
further articles.
BYU and FARMS need to stop calling 'their work' research, and pay more attention to real research.
Many are making a LOT of money on factless books, movies and extremely expensive tours.
BYU and FARMS need to stop calling 'their work' research, and pay more attention to real research.
Many are making a LOT of money on factless books, movies and extremely expensive tours.
Thomas the doubter | 4:24 p.m. Aug. 24, 2007
I'd like to see non-LDS scientists validate the authenticy of the BOM, but
I don't think it will ever happen. In fact, you get more LDS scientists
disagreeing with the conclusions of these researchers who try to validate the
BOM. Remember the "tree of life" stone (Izapa Stela 5)? That was
supposed to be proof that validates the BOM. But then it comes out that not a
single non-LDS scholor backs the LDS interpretation of that stone, and many LDS
scholars did not back the LDS interpretation of that stone either. What a kick
in the stomach!
I no longer believe in the obviously biased LDS researchers. When non-LDS scientists "prove" it, then I'll be interested in what they have to say.
BTW, to clarify, I do believe in the BOM. I don't believe in these "researchers" and their findings, unless their findings are validated by the non-biased, non-LDS scholars.
I no longer believe in the obviously biased LDS researchers. When non-LDS scientists "prove" it, then I'll be interested in what they have to say.
BTW, to clarify, I do believe in the BOM. I don't believe in these "researchers" and their findings, unless their findings are validated by the non-biased, non-LDS scholars.
Two men are in prison | 5:12 p.m. Aug. 24, 2007
and look out the window. One sees mud the other the sky. Which one is right? For
they both truly saw what they were looking for.
Conejo | 5:16 p.m. Aug. 24, 2007
Doubting Thomas,
If Non-LDS researchers validated the BOM they surely would no longer be Non-LDS. Therefore a person following after would say "That is just another LDS researcher making fantastic claims again" The fact is many people have researched and found enough evidence to give them pause and look for spiritual confirmation to fill in the gaps "research" didn't provide. I hope you are honest enough with yourself when that evidence comes forth to ask sincerely in prayer what the truth is.
If Non-LDS researchers validated the BOM they surely would no longer be Non-LDS. Therefore a person following after would say "That is just another LDS researcher making fantastic claims again" The fact is many people have researched and found enough evidence to give them pause and look for spiritual confirmation to fill in the gaps "research" didn't provide. I hope you are honest enough with yourself when that evidence comes forth to ask sincerely in prayer what the truth is.
shawn | 5:34 p.m. Aug. 24, 2007
And now for something different... I live here in the southeast US and I can
find some evidence of old fortifications that predate the native Indian culture
that the Europeans foound down here. Some in Georga, some in Tennissee and a few
look remarkably like I read about in the BOM. And some years ago, I was reading
an account of someone traveling with Joseph Smith to MO, and the account said
that Joseph pointed out some Indian mounds and said it was the site of ancient
Manti. Sooo.. maybe all the Mayan/Omec stuff is irrelavant? Just maybe all the
BOM stuff happened in North America (yeah I know narrow neck of land and all
that, but the face of the land was changed when Christ came plus maybe we are
just too blind to see somthing). Anyway, when what man saies and what Father
has revieled conflict; I put my money on Father to be right.
Boston | 5:52 p.m. Aug. 24, 2007
I agree Conejo. It is so simple that there is AMPLE, accessable spiritual
evidence to anyone, at any age, willing to bend their knees and ask God for a
witness of the truth. Like the Children of Israel soaked with pride who
wouldn't simply "look" to Moses' staff and live, our pride,
and too much caring of what others think prevent many of us from simply finding
a quiet place and kneeling and asking God. He has promised to witness the
truth. Keep it simple. The archeological evidence is coming...slowly. All
truth will fit neatly together- spiritual, scientific, archeological...some day.
But in the mean time don't throw away your spritual witness because that
day hasn't happened yet.
I am so grateful for the witnesses I have had, and the joy that has come from following the teachings of the Book of Mormon. I know it is true.
I am so grateful for the witnesses I have had, and the joy that has come from following the teachings of the Book of Mormon. I know it is true.
@ OK & Matt and the like | 9:46 p.m. Aug. 24, 2007
I would like to quote an actual scientist:
�As an adolescent I aspired to lasting fame, I craved factual certainty, and I thirsted for a meaningful vision of human life - so I became a scientist. This is like becoming an archbishop so you can meet girls.� - M. Cartmill
Any scientist worth his salt will admit that scientific "fact" is just the best knowledge of the day and not actual "absolute truth". I am a scientist and have studied the scientific method. Read the quote again and realize that nothing humans discover can be "reality" when even scientific reality is based on accepting key assumptions that cannot be proved. I have found Mormon faith to be more sure than science.
�As an adolescent I aspired to lasting fame, I craved factual certainty, and I thirsted for a meaningful vision of human life - so I became a scientist. This is like becoming an archbishop so you can meet girls.� - M. Cartmill
Any scientist worth his salt will admit that scientific "fact" is just the best knowledge of the day and not actual "absolute truth". I am a scientist and have studied the scientific method. Read the quote again and realize that nothing humans discover can be "reality" when even scientific reality is based on accepting key assumptions that cannot be proved. I have found Mormon faith to be more sure than science.
FaithNoMo | 10:57 p.m. Aug. 24, 2007
You do realize the ONLY people that believe that the Book of Mormon is true, or
actually took place in South America is Mormons right? There is no evidence to
anything aside from speculation. DNA evidence shot down Lamanites coming from
anywhere other than Asia. But that must be another conspiracy against the
church.
And if you KNOW it is true, where does faith come in? Unless the meaning of "know" is different to believers. There is no actual evidence for The Book of Mormon, or God for that matter, outside of it can't be totally disproven.
Old Joe was a wiz at telling stories. His own Mother wrote about it in her journal, before he came up with his story to make his self rich. *Look up Ethan Smith and "View of the Hebrews." It pre-dates the BofM and golly it sure seems like they must have seen the same Golden Plates.
And if you KNOW it is true, where does faith come in? Unless the meaning of "know" is different to believers. There is no actual evidence for The Book of Mormon, or God for that matter, outside of it can't be totally disproven.
Old Joe was a wiz at telling stories. His own Mother wrote about it in her journal, before he came up with his story to make his self rich. *Look up Ethan Smith and "View of the Hebrews." It pre-dates the BofM and golly it sure seems like they must have seen the same Golden Plates.
Steve | 11:15 a.m. Aug. 25, 2007
To "FaithNoMo":
You do realize, I hope, that your arguments are silly and have been thoroughly trounced by LDS scholars.
"You do realize that the only people who believe that the Book of Mormon is true...is Mormons right?"
Yes, I do. Do you realize that the only people who believe that the New Testament is true are Christians, or that the Koran is true are Muslims? Does this make these scriptures any less true? Based on your standard, this does.
"There is no evidence to anything aside from speculation."
Tisk. Tisk. Have you heard of Nahom/NHM and Wadi Saiq/Bountiful? (Or Book of Mormon Arabian Geography for that matter?) These are just the tip of the iceberg. Sure, there is no evidence, if you ignore and choose not to acknowledge the evidence.
Your comments on DNA are superficial at best, and have been dealt with before, as have Ethan Smith and "View of the Hebrews", by some very able LDS scholars.
"There is no actual evidence for the Book of Mormon, or God for that matter..."
Sigh! I heard that one before. The fact of the matter is that there IS evidence for the Book of Mormon, some of which I have discussed above.
"Joe was a wiz at telling stories...to make his self rich."
Yup, "Old Joe" sure got gold, glory, and fame for "writing" the Book of Mormon. He was sure was an American hero to his contemperaries and was the most beloved religious leader in town. He sure got riches and success for "writing" the Book of Mormon, alright! (sigh)
Please, FaithNoMo, if you are going to pretend to be an authority on Mormonism and the Book of Mormon, then at least bring something new to the table. Not Ethan Smith or DNA.
You do realize, I hope, that your arguments are silly and have been thoroughly trounced by LDS scholars.
"You do realize that the only people who believe that the Book of Mormon is true...is Mormons right?"
Yes, I do. Do you realize that the only people who believe that the New Testament is true are Christians, or that the Koran is true are Muslims? Does this make these scriptures any less true? Based on your standard, this does.
"There is no evidence to anything aside from speculation."
Tisk. Tisk. Have you heard of Nahom/NHM and Wadi Saiq/Bountiful? (Or Book of Mormon Arabian Geography for that matter?) These are just the tip of the iceberg. Sure, there is no evidence, if you ignore and choose not to acknowledge the evidence.
Your comments on DNA are superficial at best, and have been dealt with before, as have Ethan Smith and "View of the Hebrews", by some very able LDS scholars.
"There is no actual evidence for the Book of Mormon, or God for that matter..."
Sigh! I heard that one before. The fact of the matter is that there IS evidence for the Book of Mormon, some of which I have discussed above.
"Joe was a wiz at telling stories...to make his self rich."
Yup, "Old Joe" sure got gold, glory, and fame for "writing" the Book of Mormon. He was sure was an American hero to his contemperaries and was the most beloved religious leader in town. He sure got riches and success for "writing" the Book of Mormon, alright! (sigh)
Please, FaithNoMo, if you are going to pretend to be an authority on Mormonism and the Book of Mormon, then at least bring something new to the table. Not Ethan Smith or DNA.
Ok? | 4:03 p.m. Aug. 25, 2007
Your ignorance saddens me,.. "The truth will set you free...You guys talk
about claims that a man made" I have spoken with many missionaries that
come by and when they ask me to read their little booklets I sincerely promise
to them that I will as long as they read articles made by REPUTABLE scientists
and they ALL say the same thing,: "We can ONLY read stuff authorized by the
church" No wonder! There are many other evidences in other faiths. The
Catholic church has seen many miracles. All miracles must be Authenticated
before being called a miracle, they go through scientific tests and so on,..If
the bom is true as it claims to be a restored gospel(Even though Galations 1:6-9
Expressly tells us to ignore it even if sent by an Angel Sound Familiar?)In the
end I cant judge, thats up to the Holy Trinity just remember "The Truth
will set you free" Dont be scared to look into church history and do
research on your own and ask the HOlY Spirit that IS GOD to guide you on your
journey, May God Bless and I love you ALL in Christ!
to commentator | 5:40 p.m. Aug. 25, 2007
I sent a very kind response to FaithNoMo talking about Alma 32 and several hours
later it is not on here, yet "OK?" has once again lashed out at those
of the LDS faith. My comment to FaithNoMo is for "Ok" as well.
Please add it to the topic.
Kon Tiki Fan
ps "Ok" I've always felt it sad that one has to have every miracle authenticated in the Catholic Church. I see small beautiful miracles everyday and I dare not say they aren't from God. The big ones...well even our church won't share them unless authenticated. And catholics see Mother Mary's face in many things...yet LDS people and people's of other faiths don't. Does that mean the faces are really not there, or that God has shown them to you as faithful Catholics to solidy your faith? We as Mormons "see" possible evidences of the cultures of ancient peoples spoken of in the BofM in South and North America, yet others don't. Does that make them not there? It all comes down to faith.
Kon Tiki Fan
ps "Ok" I've always felt it sad that one has to have every miracle authenticated in the Catholic Church. I see small beautiful miracles everyday and I dare not say they aren't from God. The big ones...well even our church won't share them unless authenticated. And catholics see Mother Mary's face in many things...yet LDS people and people's of other faiths don't. Does that mean the faces are really not there, or that God has shown them to you as faithful Catholics to solidy your faith? We as Mormons "see" possible evidences of the cultures of ancient peoples spoken of in the BofM in South and North America, yet others don't. Does that make them not there? It all comes down to faith.
Kon Tiki Fan | 9:16 p.m. Aug. 25, 2007
My apologies to "ok" for accusing you of lashing out. That was a bit
to strong, but I'm still dissapointed that who ever is in charge of this
forum did not print my original message to "FaithNoMo". Basically the
Lord is not going to give us more knowledge than we are willing to bear or
believe. He is not going to come out and say "Here exactly is where the
ancient Nephites and lamanites lived" any more than he's going to come
out and say "here's where Noah landed the ark". Now he may
witness to us personally those things by his Holy spirit, but that is revelation
we can recieve only for his purposes.
As for Galatians 1:8 it says, via the King James version "But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed."
Joseph Smith, we believe, was a restorer of the ancient gospel. He was as the apostle Paul himself, as quoted in Galatians 1:10-12
"For do I now persuade men, or God? or do I seek to please men? for if I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ. But I certify you, bretheren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man. For I neigher received it of man, neigher was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ."
He was taught by God the Father and His son Jesus Christ. You of course do not have to believe this and you will not recieve a witness of its truth because you don't want to and that is okay, because you won't go to hell for it, that only happens in cartoons, but I can't deny my witness.
As for Galatians 1:8 it says, via the King James version "But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed."
Joseph Smith, we believe, was a restorer of the ancient gospel. He was as the apostle Paul himself, as quoted in Galatians 1:10-12
"For do I now persuade men, or God? or do I seek to please men? for if I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ. But I certify you, bretheren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man. For I neigher received it of man, neigher was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ."
He was taught by God the Father and His son Jesus Christ. You of course do not have to believe this and you will not recieve a witness of its truth because you don't want to and that is okay, because you won't go to hell for it, that only happens in cartoons, but I can't deny my witness.
Kon Tiki Fan | 9:18 p.m. Aug. 25, 2007
My apologies to "ok" for accusing you of lashing out. That was a bit
to strong, but I'm still dissapointed that who ever is in charge of this
forum did not print my original message to "FaithNoMo". Basically the
Lord is not going to give us more knowledge than we are willing to bear or
believe. He is not going to come out and say "Here exactly is where the
ancient Nephites and lamanites lived" any more than he's going to come
out and say "here's where Noah landed the ark". Now he may
witness to us personally those things by his Holy spirit, but that is revelation
we can recieve only for his purposes.
As for Galatians 1:8 it says, via the King James version "But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed."
Joseph Smith, we believe, was a restorer of the ancient gospel. He was as the apostle Paul himself, as quoted in Galatians 1:10-12
"For do I now persuade men, or God? or do I seek to please men? for if I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ. But I certify you, bretheren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man. For I neigher received it of man, neigher was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ."
He was taught by God the Father and His son Jesus Christ. You of course do not have to believe this and you will not recieve a witness of its truth because you don't want to and that is okay, because you won't go to hell for it, that only happens in cartoons, but I can't deny my witness.
As for Galatians 1:8 it says, via the King James version "But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed."
Joseph Smith, we believe, was a restorer of the ancient gospel. He was as the apostle Paul himself, as quoted in Galatians 1:10-12
"For do I now persuade men, or God? or do I seek to please men? for if I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ. But I certify you, bretheren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man. For I neigher received it of man, neigher was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ."
He was taught by God the Father and His son Jesus Christ. You of course do not have to believe this and you will not recieve a witness of its truth because you don't want to and that is okay, because you won't go to hell for it, that only happens in cartoons, but I can't deny my witness.
Melissa | 1:00 p.m. Aug. 26, 2007
Just a few comments: Archeological evidence points to mingling and interaction
between Mesoamerican and ancient North Americans - whether it moved northward or
southward is still unknown - perhaps both. The prophet Mormon grew up 'in
the land northward' and didn't see the great city until he was an
adolescent so ???????? perhaps the entire land mass of the Americas is
involved.
As far as DNA evidence goes, genetic groups of traits most closely allign with Asia. The people certainly came from many parts of the world though and after mass extinction post European contact we are also dealing with a founders effect which greatly distorts the picture.
My personal thoughts after having read the BOM (repeatedly) is that mainly as has already been stated, this is a religious record. Actually this is a given as the record keepers state that they kept two records with separate purposes. But mostly, I get the feeling that we have very precious teachings left from people who even in their own time were in a minority percentage-wise. Much like the US today, we 'Mormons" are involved in society and live in various locations but we are a very small percentage of the population - no matter how much navel gazing we do. We are part of the greater society, perhaps a very important part, just merely a portion. Perhaps things were much like this anciently.
As far as DNA evidence goes, genetic groups of traits most closely allign with Asia. The people certainly came from many parts of the world though and after mass extinction post European contact we are also dealing with a founders effect which greatly distorts the picture.
My personal thoughts after having read the BOM (repeatedly) is that mainly as has already been stated, this is a religious record. Actually this is a given as the record keepers state that they kept two records with separate purposes. But mostly, I get the feeling that we have very precious teachings left from people who even in their own time were in a minority percentage-wise. Much like the US today, we 'Mormons" are involved in society and live in various locations but we are a very small percentage of the population - no matter how much navel gazing we do. We are part of the greater society, perhaps a very important part, just merely a portion. Perhaps things were much like this anciently.
apologies to "ok" | 9:56 p.m. Aug. 26, 2007
I had a chance tonight to listen to a most inspiring woman of God and as I
listened I realized that my last comments to "ok" in the last
paragraph were rather self-righteous. Please forgive me, as it was not said in
the spirit I believe our Lord would be happy with.
Your friend in Christ
Kon Tiki Fan
Your friend in Christ
Kon Tiki Fan
James Brown | 9:47 a.m. Sept. 14, 2007
Melissa - I keep reading that the BOM is a �religious
record not an archeological record� and can therefore be
excused for it inaccuracies.
This is a great new version of �the dog ate my homework�.
I love it
This is a great new version of �the dog ate my homework�.
I love it
Trounced | 10:27 a.m. Sept. 14, 2007
Isn't it interesting that everyone seems to conveniently ignore the fact
that many Book of Mormon place names are derivatives of actual place names from
upstate New York? Google a map of that area if you don't believe me.
Remember Zelph and the prophet Onandagus? They didn't happen to come from
Onandaga County, did they?
And about LDS scholars "trouncing" secular scholars -- I guess it depends on your definition of "trouncing"... for example, when the Book of Abraham facsimiles were proved to be completely unconnected to the interpretations in the Pearl of Great Price, LDS scholars simply changed their arguments by inventing a "spiritual translation" angle that didn't even require physical materials.
See, the problem with FARMS is that they strain at gnats to make even the most flimsy parallel look like "inspiring evidence." I should know -- I spent time on the Yucatan peninsula with some of these people. At the ruins at Tulum, we found a "box" about six feet long and about four feet wide with stairs leading into it down to about waist depth. Naturally, the FARMS-type guys were convinced that this was a baptismal font. Never mind that the entire context of the ruins was so far removed from Mormon theology or the culture described in the Book of Mormon -- that single, out of context possible parallel was added to the "mounting evidence" of the Book of Mormon's truth and was added as a stop on the tour by Mormon tour guides.
Sure, the Book of Mormon stories might be true. There's about as much chance of it as the Scientologists' theory about space aliens and Xenu.
And about LDS scholars "trouncing" secular scholars -- I guess it depends on your definition of "trouncing"... for example, when the Book of Abraham facsimiles were proved to be completely unconnected to the interpretations in the Pearl of Great Price, LDS scholars simply changed their arguments by inventing a "spiritual translation" angle that didn't even require physical materials.
See, the problem with FARMS is that they strain at gnats to make even the most flimsy parallel look like "inspiring evidence." I should know -- I spent time on the Yucatan peninsula with some of these people. At the ruins at Tulum, we found a "box" about six feet long and about four feet wide with stairs leading into it down to about waist depth. Naturally, the FARMS-type guys were convinced that this was a baptismal font. Never mind that the entire context of the ruins was so far removed from Mormon theology or the culture described in the Book of Mormon -- that single, out of context possible parallel was added to the "mounting evidence" of the Book of Mormon's truth and was added as a stop on the tour by Mormon tour guides.
Sure, the Book of Mormon stories might be true. There's about as much chance of it as the Scientologists' theory about space aliens and Xenu.
Ralph George | 3:38 p.m. Sept. 14, 2007
I am glad that there will be an explanation to some of the questions I have had.
So we will finally learn the Hebrew cultural practices of the Mayan and Olmec
civilizations and their use of steel, barley, wheat, chariots, horses etc. I am
pleased because somewhere the ideas of a young man in 1820's New York and
the study of Pre-Columbian archeology parted ways. Can you help me with the
Jaredite barges while you are at it?
When one, just one, non-LDS archeologist, New-World linguist, or New World scholar picks up the BoM and states this will guide their work then I will take notice. I think the BoM is a book to be take on faith. Don't mix the empirical world with the spiritual world.
When one, just one, non-LDS archeologist, New-World linguist, or New World scholar picks up the BoM and states this will guide their work then I will take notice. I think the BoM is a book to be take on faith. Don't mix the empirical world with the spiritual world.
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