BYU officer tells women to raise their awareness
Well, that's messed up
as growing up ...many were told something i could never understand ..that was
confusing to me as a man ...better to die than to give it up..until i ended up
saving three potential rape victums and saw the truma caused to the victum. It
is a violent crime. The guy needs to pay everyday!
she should have died before that happened to her? wow that really is so sad that
she believes that like i felt terrible when i first read that. it is terrible to
think that a man could do that to a woman.... it might sound cliche, but what
is this world coming to?
It is incredibly sad that someone could think they are unpure when they are
raped. Purity has everything to do with your intent and desires, not what
happens to you. If you had no impure desires or motives and someone raped you,
how could you consider yourself impure? YOU are just as pure as before. I think this article is a representation of where we are as a society.
It would be convenient to categorize rapists as just "monsters" because then we
can separate ourselves from them easily, but if we really looked into it we
would understand that they are just one step, albeit a VERY LARGE STEP, from a
normal functioning person. The events that lead them to taking that large step
is tragic. I will post an incredible quote after this that, I
believe, shows a little into how a person can get to that point.
Educating young Women and Men regarding sexual matters (herpes,aids etc,) as
well as offensive and defensive behaviours is a must in these times, to still
have Young Women bearing the responsibility from Her Community/Family and
feeling rage and frustration and fear because She's been taught not to respond
to the authorities or let anyone know only sends a message to those so inclined
to sexual violence, that this is a safe environment to persue thier actions...
Chastity and virginity are not the same. A rape victim does not lose chastity,
which is the greatest virtue she/he can bring to her/his marriage. LDS men and
women should understand this and not devalue themselves because of rape. They
are still priceless children of God and are chaste.
pLEASE BECOME MORE EDUCATED AS THIS OFFICER HAS BECOME ONE OF YOUR GREATEST
TOOLS..NO LONGER CAN WE SIT BY AND LET THIS HAPPEN TO GOOD SISTERS. PROTECT AND
BE VIGILANT! PROSECUTE EVERYONE OF THEM AS YOU WILL BE SAVING OTHERS!THIS IS A
SICK , VICIOUS CRIME!
I don't understand why Mormon women feel that way. Girls, please know that you
are the victim and I as a man would show an increased level of love and support
if you were the victim of rape. I don't know anyone who would condemn you for
Five or 6 years ago, someone showed me some Anti-Mormon literature that said
rape was highest in Utah country than anywhere else in the nation. A friend explained it to me that it was most likely that reported rape was
highest in Utah county because girls would go to their bishops if they were
raped and he would encourage them to report it to the police, where as other
communities a lot of rapes go unreported in other communities. This
article dispels that theory. Can anyone comment on this? Is Utah county still
one of the highest in the nation?
This is terribly sad. But I wish they would explain how it is they estimate
that 90% go unreported if they're, well, unreported.
What's wrong with telling women to train to carry a Taser, knife, gun or other
weapon to protect them from the Hell the girls described in this article are
Rapes (especially date rape) are not reported in Utah because everybody is so
judgmental and blames the victim! I was raped. But victims of rape in Utah are
accused of wearing immodest clothing, or not following the spirit and going
places they should not be, or not listening to the still small voice tell them
when a guy is a bad guy, etc. I was horrified by how I was treated after the
I can understand why these girls say they wish they had not lived. Even though
everyone knows they did nothing wrong, how could you feel anything BUT unclean
after someone does such an awful thing to you? There is nothing wrong with
these girls feeling this way. Frankly, if they felt fine afterwards, I
would be MORE worried about them. There is nothing wrong with our society
if these girls feel like this, they just need love and support by those who
truly care about them. That is where we run into trouble, with the loved ones
not acting appropriately after the fact. The burden is on the family and friends
of these girls to help them know they still are pure.
The article said that only about 40 of an estimated 400 rapes in Provo were
reported. I don't mean to sound like a skeptic, but how do they get to that
number of 400? Is it based on the national average?
who cares about the numbers...this is hell to any amount of women. One raises
and nurtures the ladies then something evil comes this way. Take precaution as
these evil doers are becomming more sophisticated and lack any compassion. Don't
be so Naive!
It's better to DIE than lose your virginity?Yes Provo, and the Earth
is flat (and only 6000 years old), evolution doesn't exist, women shouldn't be
allowed to vote, blacks don't deserve the priesthood,and the Easter Bunny
Tumbleweed Tom,Because they might activate one of those things in
church!!!My favorite farewell ended with the entire congregation
being maced by one girl fiddling with the can inside her purse. The building
was evacuated, and bishops argued with the Stake President how they would now
report attendance because of budgetary issues.Having been one of the
hundreds maced in this incident, I kind of wonder how effective those sorts of
deterrents are. They could always be turned against the victim and make things
worse for her/him. She could wind up dead even, if the deterrent was a gun or a
knife.Our laws on rape need to include the death penalty for those
who are serial rapists or rape young children. I just hope the Supreme Court
upholds the one capital punishment rape case that is before them right now, and
that other states put similar laws on the books.400 is a bit hard
for me to swallow. I too wonder where that number comes from. There is quite a
few that aren't reported, but I pray that number is no where near 400.
Weird. If only 10 percent of the rapes are reported, how do they know the other
360 or so occured? How do they know only 10 percent are reported? How do you
track things that are not reported? How do you quantify statistics without
somekind of numerical evidence? It seems to me if you can track the number of
rapes that aren't reported, you have a way of helping and/or encouraging those
women report those rapes to the cops. Where did this Lemmon get her info? Sounds
almost like she just made it up.Anyway, its horrible and sad that
some women feel they can't report this ugly, violent crime. All rapes should be
reported, and offenders prosecuted to the limits of the law!
This is not a well written article. A topic like this should be given much more
thought. Please back up your statistics. A half attempt at trying to write an
article on a subject like this is a slap in the face of victims.
A lot of the "beliefs" that a rape robs you of your purity is because we, as a
group, don't teach our young women with straight talk. If parents and leaders
don't teach girls with frank discussions, these misconceptions happen. The
discussion doesn't have to be disgusting, but it should be straight forward. As
a Young Women leader in the church, I have very honest discussions with the
girls and they appreciate it. This is an adult world and we're sending them out
into it - they need to be prepared.
It isn't that people look at them differently. It is that they themselves
perceive that they are looked at differently. It is a sad by product of any
Rape statistics have been a topic of debate for years. I'd love to find where
these numbers actually come from.Rape is underreported - as are all
crimes. Many crimes are too embarrassing to report, some not worthwhile to
report, etc. Numerous so-called studies of "rape" have counted even
unwanted advances or inappropriate comments as "rape".I have strong
empathy for rape victims - don't get me wrong. But if we're going to start
throwing around numbers trying to make some sort of change in public policy,
let's actually make sure those numbers mean something.
In 2004, Utah was 17th in the U.S. for rates of forcible rape, at 39.1 per
100,000 people. You can google search the information pretty easily, actually.
Your anti-Mormon friend was way off, some states have rates more
than double what Utah has.Nevertheless, 39.1 is terrible. And the
treatment the victims seem to be getting is absurd.
Someone please explain to me where he arrives at the 400 figure????? All I got
was 43 reported in Utah, and suddenly it's 400. Help?!
I'm a Criminal Justice/Forensics student at SUU. Just to clear up any
confusion...there are two seperate crime reporting systems. There's the UCR
(uniform crime report) which is database based on crimes that were REPORTED to
the police and there is the NCVR (national crime victimization survey) which is
a database based on a survey sent out to people asking if they were victims of a
crime and if so...what one. The victimization survey is completely anonymous so
you can infer that there are many crimes victims do not report. Unfortunately
rape is one of the highest. In my criminology class the statistic given was as
high as a 60% difference nationwide between rapes reported and actual rapes that
occur (with a +/- 5% margin of error). Hope this helps.
BTW: I can't post a URL in here but if anyone is really interested in this do a
google search on "Bureau of Justice Statistics" and then click on "Crime and
It is so sad that some of these young women feel like they did something wrong
and that they wished they had died. It does bother me that some fellow LDS are
so hard lined about these types of things. I cringe at the thought of telling a
young women that she should fight to the death in such a situation (and then she
feels guilty for not having done that). I also cringe when I hear somebody say
that they would rather their son come home in box than to be sent home early
from his mission. Come on! This is over doing it. Bad things happen and mistakes
are made. The focus should be on loving and nursing them back to emotional
Even recently in YW (two years ago) I was taught that the sin second only to
murder is sexual sin, and that we should be willing to sacrifice our lives
rather than to be violated or lose our purity.People can say what
they want about the way things should be, but the way things really are in the
Church is still teaching this kind of stuff.
I agree with one of the anonymous posters who said 'how could you feel anything
but unclean..' I live in California, and this certainly isn't a Utah, Provo,
LDS thing at all. Rape is a horribly underreported crime, and many, if not
most, victims feel like they've done or become something wrong by going through
it. The judgmentalism about it spans just about all cultures, religions, etc,
etc. There will always be people who will question if it was her fault, there
will always be people who doubt it happened, there will always be people who
treat the victim differently after than they did before, and you'll find that
everywhere. It's wrong, but it's just the way things are.
Men are the problem?I simply don't see the point of statements like
that. So what does he suggest we do? Eradicate all men? Statements like that don't serve any meaningful purpose, other than to
increase hatred and fear of men, which is sort of a stupid thing to do.
Misogyny is a big problem in our society, but misandry is also (increasingly)
becoming a problem.I love how he also trivializes the rape of men:
"yeah it happens - but it doesn't happen very often, so it's not important."
(Interestingly it does happen quite often in prisons, but I'm sure he'd think
that's quite fine and acceptable and they really deserve it anyways because
they're bad.) This is not to detract from the tragedy that this
article describes - it is absolutely terrible that this should happen to anyone.
But comments like his do absolutely nothing to help the problem - nothing at
all. They in fact just create other problems that will have to be solved
Rape does not always mean full penetraion. It can also mean sexual molestation.
Usually victims usually knows the rapist. It can be date rape,
dressing/acting like a slut (attracts the wrong kind of men.. that's the
danger). Somehow you came across as a 'victim". (However, that dosen't lessen
the crime or make the rapist less evil.) The rapist usually targets his intended
victim. He may pretend to be a fellow church goer, he may be a "member" of your
religion, or he'll act like a friend. Look at Bundy.As for the LDS Church
not being frank with the girls... isn't that really the parents responsiblty?
That's like saying it's the YW leaders job to teach the girls about sex. You
can teach self defense, and that's approbiate. That's in any Church, LDS,
Catholic or Evangelist.About the feeling you should die. I don't know any
rape victim that during the initial grieving part that did not felt that way.
It's normal. It's not something caused by a religion. My friend felt that way
when her boyfriend raped her.. and she is Aethist. After she healed she became
an advicant for self-defense to prevent date-rape.
Quote: Even recently in YW (two years ago) I was taught that the sin second only
to murder is sexual sin, and that we should be willing to sacrifice our lives
rather than to be violated or lose our purity.People can say what
they want about the way things should be, but the way things really are in the
Church is still teaching this kind of stuff. Your YW class may have
done that, but when my Bishop talked about it in Sacarament recently (singles
ward) he made it clear that that is not the Church's stand on it. Purity has
nothing to do with rape.. you are still pure. And that the General Authorities
have never said it's better to sacrafice your life than to be raped, or in a
different sense, lose your purity. (AKA you sleep around before marriage.)
As a young woman, which was not too long ago I'm a BYU Student right now. I
listened to a talk given in a fireside by a young women who visited a foreign
country and was almost raped. She stated that she would have died before giving
up her virginity. I was molested as a child and thought, perhaps I should have
asked to be killed as well. I struggled with this idea throughout high school.
Fortunately, I have a strong will and self-determination. I sought counseling as
a young co-ed and straightend out my head. Unfortunately not all students are as
lucky as I am. When speaking to your children about values emphasize that
vicitimization does not constitute a loss of virtue. They are not the same and
should not be treated as such. That is why the victims identities are kept
anonymous. There are some crazy people who do not understand that bad things
happen to good people through no fault of their own.
After volunteering for over a year as an advocate for my local Rape Crisis
Center, I do believe the statement that most rapes are not reported. As a
volunteer, I would meet with rape victims at the local emergency rooms, help
them through the medical exam, inform them of their legal options, inform them
of rape counseling resources, etc. A rape victim could choose whether or not to
report the rape to police. Of the approximately 20-25 victims I helped, I can
remember only one or two who chose to report the crime. Reporting a
rape is a very difficult experience for an already traumatized victim. They must
relate every detail of the rape to a police officer and undergo a rather
invasive rape exam. In the end, most rapist are never found or charged. I wish these statistics were different. No one should have to experience
this form of violence. At the very least, hopefully we can make rape victims
understand that the rape was NOT their fault and that they are still good
My daughter was sexually assaulted in Provo in 2007. She called the Provo
police. Waited four days for a return call. Nothing. To this day, she has not
been contacted. We are looking at months now. Wonder why the statistics are so
low. They dont care.
30 years ago, I reported my incestuous father (not lds) and his abuse towards
me...a new member at age 18, and I was instructed by my bishop to read the
Miracle of Forgiveness to understand what I had done wrong..??? I think these
poor bishops had not been equipped on how to deal with this sort of thing. I
hope that is no longer the case, but cultural attitudes die hard. Sometimes it
takes generations, sadly.
I think that most rapes go unrepoted because you don't want to feel like an
outcast. you get the feeling that no one will in church will understand you and
they will treat you differently!
BArmstr,I am saddened to hear of your daughter's experience, and the
complete lack of help you received. You've probably done this
already, but if you haven't, I would encourage you to contact the police
department and let someone there know of your situation and how things have been
handled--or rather not handled. People do care.
This story saddens and sickens me at the same time. Rape is one of the most
violent and horrible acts that can happen to anyone. My mother was raped at the
young age of 15. The rapist laughed at her as if he was proud of what she did.
She told no one and felt that she was no longer worthy of being a good LDS
woman. She thought that no man would ever want her. In the LDS culture we are
taught the principles of chastity and virginity. When someone violenty takes
that away from you, no matter if you are LDS or not - you have been victimized
beyond belief. I cannot imagine the pain that these victims go through in
overcoming this great trial. Any judgement these preditors receive, here or in
the afterlife, is not strong enough. We not only need to educate women and
girls but also educate the men. They are most likely the ones committing this
crime. How can we reverse it? This is not just an issue for the LDS but for
This really IS NOT a well written or well researched article. It's as if facts
are a burden and we should just look past them and understand the 'bigger
picture' that the author intended. If someone is going to make the claim that
90% of rapes in Provo go unreported, back it up. It's what we used to call
journalism. As far as people in the LDS church thinking that a rape
victim is somehow not pure, educate yourselves on the doctrine. That is one of
the most ridiculous things I've heard. Of course a rape victim is still pure.
Good grief! Excuse me while I go pull my hair out.
I should not be that way, but it often is. Women should report True Rape
Promptly. The offender should be cought and punished to the fullest extent of
the law. However the fear and the stigma still exist. It is not the fault of the
Dogma but is in part a result of the Dogma. Rape is not a sex act it a Violent
Crime against the person who is Raped. The results can mess a person and their
perhaps good relationships up for life. There can be guilt and baggage and
social added baggage that will last a life time. The Idea is sometimes if you
don't report the crime then it diden't happen. If you report it you are somehow
less a person. Of course the victim is not less of a person. I feel bad for any
Women who is Truely Raped. Even if she was "doing things she should not have
been doing" That idea is judgemental and very wrong. Somewhat sick as in "if you
play out side the box then you are going to get yours" Sometimes awful stuff
happens to people that follow all the rules, just does.
Did anyone else besides me notice that this article was published October 16,
2003? What has caused it to garner so much attention more than 4 years after
appearing in the paper? The article is supposedly based upon 2002 statistics,
but as pointed out by many commenters, those stats are not explained or verified
in any way. A better written, more fully researched article on this topic would
be useful. Perhaps a follow-up story, based on solid, current statistics would
be in order...to be continued
On a happier note, at least this article generates a discussion that will
hopefully bring about change in the attitudes of both rape victims and LDS
church leaders. This cannot be a bad thing. It is a sad and unfortunate reality
that rape victims in Utah and everywhere often feel a sense of guilt and
embarrassment for something that IS NOT THEIR FAULT. It is an equally sad and
unfortunate reality that church leaders, LDS and otherwise, have for generations
stigmatized victims and wrongfully contributed to their guilt feelings by making
them feel like they bore some responsibility for what happened to them. In fact,
for many years, LDS leaders preached from the pulpit that a young woman would be
better to give up her life than her virtue, perpetuating the myth that virtue
can somehow be stolen. That view has thankfully been repudiated by the church,
but apparently some leaders haven't got the message. Hopefully, with continued
efforts by the church hierarchy, and education from well-researched and -written
articles on this topic, the slow learners among us will come to understand, and
rape victims will become more comfortable reporting and receiving help for the
crimes against them.
My heart goes out to victims described in this article. So much still needs to
be done to change attitudes in our testosterone-driven, blame-the-victim
society. I know from personal experience that this is a widespread problem faced
by young men as well as young women. I also know from personal experience that
at least within the last 10 years, there were still LDS church leaders who
believed that teen-aged, and even pre-teen victims of sexual abuse needed to
repent for what they had done. I think I convinced one that he was wrong.
Hopefully, there aren't more lurking out there who are damaging the fragile
psyches of our youth through their ignorance. We all need to be vigilant to root
out these harmful attitudes, wherever we may find them.
An important point that has not been made is that promptly reporting to a local
emergency room is important for many reasons after a sexual assault. It allows
for documentation, collection of DNA, initiation of investigation, and
connection to a psychological support system. Of course, this does not change
the stigma which has been associated with sexual assault victims. Hearing
personal accounts is often heartbreaking, and the compounded aspects of feeling
unworthy/impure makes these crimes truly devastating. Hopefully we can do a
better job of teaching these victims (male and female) that they are in fact
victims. After that realization, then progress can be made to overcome the
feelings of guilt and/or impurity.
As a life-long church member, I remember sitting through many standard nights
and seminary lessons all about this subject. "It is better to come home in a
pine box than to have a sexual sin." What a horrible thing to tell a child.
And we were told that very thing.Yes, we as a culture tend to blame
the victim, all victims. In a burglary: the victim didn't secure their
possessions well enough. In a rape: either the victim wore too provocative of
clothing, or was jogging alone, or didn't fight hard enough to get away. All these arguments are baloney. Bad things do happen to good people.
Heavenly Father won't always protect you from bad things. If He did, it would
take away the agency of His other children. I wish that bad things could only
happen to people who are bad, but in this life, that's not the way of it.As far as not coming forward - who can blame a victim for not wanting to
be villified by the press, their church, family or the prosecution.
Persons attitudes do need to be changed. You cannot blame the victim. It is
never right to abuse someone-esp. sexually. It takes a sick person to do this. I
have seen the horrible effects of this in people's lives-men and woman. SOme
people have made choices and are bad people and their chances of changing are
very slim. Mormon's need to be aware of these kinds of people. One cannot and
should not take responsibility for someone else's actions even if that person
doesn't own up. People need to be made accountable for their own actions and
victims need sympathy, not blame. Knowing about narcissists and abusive people
with no consciences is a good thing. Not all people are like you people need to
know and not all people are going to change and become good. Some choose to be
bad and stay bad and enjoy being bad. I learnt this the hard way.
Thanks for your honesty.Being rape is not sexual sin in the part of the victim;
it is a gross vialation to the person body and spirit. It is time to stop
protecting organizations "Right or Wrong". There are bad seeds everywhere. When
things like that happen, they should be reporte to the police. The community
shoul rally around the victims in support through counseling and in love.
Rape is rape. Reported or not. For those of you who are balking at "numbers" how
dare you trivilize the pain of someone else in your narrow-minded arrogance. Men
usually are the problem. Rape, like domestic violence, is a power and control
issue. And neither rape or domestic violence rank in the top 50 high priority
lists of law enforcement and justice in Provo. Other cities as well. Attitudes
like those who are so cynical in their comments to this article, are attitudes
which make women feel hopeless and helpless, powerless to defend themselves
physically, emotionally, mentally and publically. Why report it if there isn't
going to be anything done about it? Why report it if you are just going to be
adding public humiliation to your already private hell you are living in? Would
you feel the same way if this happened to you or someone you loved? Even someone
who was a mere acquaintence? If you refuse to be a part of the solution, then at
least do it with your mouths shut and stop condemning victims.
I was a student at BYU more than 30 years ago. While walking to my job on
campus early in the morning a man drove by slowed down and was exposing himself
to me. I got his license number and kept repeating it all the way to work. I
walked in, wrote it down and told my boss to call the Provo Police. My boss was
excellent. They came quickly and took down my info. They called me later and
said they kept driving by the mans house and finally his car was home. They
felt the cars hood and it was still warm. I cannot remember if they questioned
him but I think they did. Nothing was done beyond that. I wonder if he went on
to rape women. I was lucky that time.
To deliverance777: What absolute nonsense! Are you really saying
that we shouldn't question statistics that are presented to us by a newspaper,
just because the subject is a highly sensitive one? Rape is an awful thing,
rapists should be severely punished, and victims should be treated much better,
but you should be ashamed of attempting to squelch honest inquiry into the true
severity of the problem. One woman (or man) raped is too many, but it does make
a difference whether the number of rapes in Utah County is 43 or 400. It is not
narrow-minded arrogance, but a desire to obtain a clear picture of the true
nature of the problem, and how dare you attempt to intimidate others into
As a advocate working with the Rape Crisis line in the 80's, I too experienced
the fear of reporting rape by the victims. Usually a family member, acquaintance
or former date is the perpetrator. However, the random acts are the ones usually
reported. The problem is that when reported the victim has already washed-up or
showered and removed the evidence making it impossible to secure hard evidence.
Contrary to all the conjecture about how women dress, it has more to do with a
victim being prone or alone, not staying aware, having or showing a low
self-esteem or confidence. This is what the rapist is looking for. Typically the
rapist has been reading pornographic stories (fantasies about sex) not just
looking at pictures. The women of the world need to know that when men
read pornography women become objects of aggression. The rapist does not even
consider your feelings.Any man who questions that the numbers are
too high is not accepting reality, denying the problem or IS the problem. Any
man that calls himself a Christian should take this seriously and do his part to
teach and protect those women that he has stewardship over.
hey true story, if a woman is TRAINED in the use of a defense tool, then they
wouldn't be fiddling with mace in sacrament meeting. Also they wouldn't let
someone take their weapon away from them. thats the value of training, as
opposed to just having a weapon. if you tell yourself that you will just have
your gun used against you, it probably will happen. Your mind is the weapon,
your gun is a tool.
That is weird that this four year old story just popped up all of a sudden. It
must have been linked to on some big blog somewhere.Anyway, to "Pray
for Provo" when you compare the point of the article to things like the world
being flat and that women shouldn't have the right to vote as obvious
counterexamples, you may want to keep in mind that women in Utah were given the
right to vote long before it was accepted across the rest of the country. So,
your counterexample doesn't exactly work.
Sorry, but estimated numbers like this are bunk, just like the 1 in 4 campaign,
where they estimate that 1 in 4 women are victims of sexual assault. Large
numbers are simply perpetuated by the anti-domestic violence industry, which
itself thrives by exaggerating the severity of the problem. It is getting
worse, yes. It is a terrible problem, yes. But the poster HumbleDad that
claims that any man who questions the high numbers IS the problem? Are you
serious????? That is the lamest excuse I've ever heard. One can dispute the
numbers without disagreeing that there is a major problem and that we need to do
things to fix it. Oh no, wait, I misspoke...one cannot dispute the numbers, no
matter what, even if they are completely made up, because it is not politically
correct to do so.
Recently I listened in horror to a BYU alumna of 15 years ago report her
hours-long struggle with a rapist. She said she never reported it because she
felt she would be made to feel like the victim as he was a return missionary &
priestholder. She saw her attacker at other times with BYU co-eds and tried to
warn her friends of his potential aggression but was always told they were just
"horsing around". What shocks me further: she was apparently bruised and
frightened when her roommates came home and no one noticed? The result: almost
15 year later, she is still struggling with the trauma.
Yes, I did notice that this article was printed in 2003. Let's get something
newer to respond to! We all know that the victim needs love, care, and
understanding. We all know that rapists are not normal in any sense of the
word.What I found 'interesting' is to read of many that made this an
anti-Mormon church forum. I think we need to remember that these "leaders"
and/or "teachers" are just regular people who have some problems of their own.
Unfortunately, most of the time we only hear of the abnomalities. I happen to be
a Seminary teacher (release time)and have taught over 12 years. Never once, have
I ever taught that being raped and/or commited a sexual sin warrants death.
Remember the 'plan'? Choices, repentence, etc. Of my 3 sons who served missions,
one came home early, and I certainly don't wish he had come home in a pine box.
Come on! There are fanatics everywhere! Let's give some kudos to the
functioning, mentally healthy people who choose to uplift, support, and care
about those around them.
If they weren't reported then how do we know they happened? Seems odd. Estimates
are just that. You could be way off both positive and negative. Stop publishing
numbers you can't support.
I recently moved to Provo and started working for an Anti-Pornography Company.
Part of my work is research, writing, investigating, etc, sex crimes connected
to pornography. And thus I stumbled upon this article. It's sickening and scary
that this happens in general, let alone happens on a campus and in a place
where, I think, most girls feel they are "safe." Because of that I think girls
let themselves become more vulnerable to assault. It's clearly not their fault
if it happens, but we should ALWAYS take precautions no matter WHERE we are -
BYU or otherwise. I felt that way, "safer in Provo" - and now, well, I think
I'll be just as cautious as when I was in London, or Paris, or living in SLC. I
don't care about "Utah County" rape statistics - if there was 1 a year, that's
enough for that one victim.
It just goes to show you how backwards some religiousviews truly are. I am
not sure why this should be discussed in a headline in the newspaper. I think
there are predators out there that my try to capitalize on other peopls misery.
I think everyone is too hung up on the numbers, whether right or wrong. The
fact remains that in every U.S. City these things happen, and it is a terrible
shame. Parents around the world need to teach their children against sexual sin.
However, it needs to be understood that being a rape victim is not sexual sin.
This shouldn't be a debate over statistical numbers or moral values.
Everyone needs to agree that rape is terrible, sexual sin is destructive, and
being a victim does NOT make you impure.
I am a lover of free speech. I am also a lover of intelligent thought. Good
changes happen when we work together to educate ourselves and are not afraid of
the truth. Let's continue to do that, and be careful not to let our desire to
quickly criticize or become defensive get in our way. Everyone in our society
approached rape victims differently 25 years ago, not just Mormons. Current LDS
Church leaders do not admonish followers of the faith to persecute rape victims.
To the contrary, they teach love, tolerance, and spiritual healing. If a church
member (or members) does otherwise, it is because they are making a mistake,
plain and simple. A loving Bishop who understands his calling seeks to help
members to report sexual crime to the proper authorities, and further offers
counseling and support to the victim on their road to wellness.Thousands
of LDS Bishops are volunteering their time every day to do just that, and
everyone of them is just a regular father, brother, husband, uncle, or cousin
who has promised God that he would.
kudos to the Des News for running less than flattering articles concerning
topics such as rape, child abuse, and suicide in Utah which have much higher
rates than the national average. One person stated that in 2004, govt
statistics put Utah at #17 for rape, noteably those numbers did not include
unreported rapes meaning Utah is probably much higher than 17 due to prevailing
attitudes towards reporting rape. Utah is #1 for suicide, males age 15 to
48.It doesn't stun me at all to see immediate denial come out from
people defensive toward protecting the image of this state. Attitudes like that
are part of the problem, not the solution.Read no further than the
Miracle of Forgiveness by Spencer W Kimball to see where these attitudes have
come from in the past. He suggests that if a woman being raped feels any
stimulated pleasure that she may also be impure and in need of repentance.
Nonsense. The body, is susceptible to any kind of stimulus and just because
horror doesn't overtake it doesn't make them impure. This isn't the only time
leaders in the past have put forth attitudes that make the victims feel
From President Spencer W. Kimball in The Miracle of Forgiveness: "Also far-reaching is the effect of loss of chastity. Once given OR TAKEN OR
STOLEN it can NEVER BE REGAINED. Even in forced contact such as rape or incest,
the injured one is greatly outraged. IF SHE HAS NOT COOPERATED and contributed
to the foul deed, she is of course in a MORE FAVORABLE position. There is no
condemnation where there is NO Voluntary participation. It is BETTER TO DIE in
defending one's virtue than to live having lost it without a struggle."
(EMPHASIS ADDED)Let's hope the next LDS President reverses this
vulgar attitude towards sexual victimization of Women (and Men)!
Humble Dad-Thank you for judging every man who questions the 5 year
old statistics published by DN as not a christian.
I was date raped when I was 18 (12 years ago). I felt horribly guilty about it,
even though I knew it wasn't my fault. I didn't feel like I could talk to my
parents, so I went to my bishop for help. He implied that maybe I was too scared
to admit I had sex, and that I was using date rape as a cover up. Needless to
say, if my own bishop didn't believe me, I figured no one else would. I did
eventually get counseling and I confronted my attacker. Before that, I suffered
in silence and it has affected my life in so many ways. My heart breaks for
each victim of rape. Numbers/statistics mean nothing when it was YOU who was
Justin R: "Stop publishing numbers you can't support."Congratulations; you're not the first person to glibly reject police
statistics on this thread, but you get the earful you and all the others richly
deserve. The explanation for the stats is given way up in the thread, but I
guess you can't be bothered to read it.The police gather data on
crime not just from their own reports, but also from survey data, using the same
statistical and research methods used in the social and natural sciences. These
data show significantly higher rates of crime than is reported to the police.
Perhaps you think many people lie in surveys; but you could say that about
police reports as well. I doubt anything will satisfy your ignorant
pseudo-skepticism.People should learn something about crime
statistics before they go around passing judgment on data given by the police
(who know a lot more about the crimes and their victims than you do). If you
want to question it seriously, go look for the raw data and the methodology
yourself; don't expect a reporter to supply such lengthy info (which you
probably wouldn't understand anyway) in the middle of a news article.
so a past lds leader says you should fight to remain a virgin.big deal.
Since the book "Miracle of Forgiveness" is not cannonized as scripture, the
opinions therein are those of the MAN Spencer Kimball, not the PROPHET Spencer
Kimball. I'm tired of ANY extra-curricular books being written by ANY church
leader being used as doctrine by ANYONE in the church. They are not doctrine in
the slightest, nor should they be considered as such. In certain cases (Mormon
Doctrine by McConkie), they were even asked NOT to publish them. In the case of
rape, as much as it saddens me to say it, forget the council of even your most
trusted church leaders, and strive to first and foremost draw to God Himself for
the guidance and comfort, and forget the Deseret Book self-help section.
If a crime has been committed against you notify the police as soon as possible.
Don't wait. Your recollection will be clear and valuable evidence will be
available. Don't talk to a Bishop, teacher, or school counselor about it. It was
a crime so contact the police. If you need help dealing with the aftermath of
the crime then talk to a family member, church leader, or school counselor.
Every young woman (and man) should be taught this. Likewise, if your son was
beat up at school, file a police report (assault), then contact the principal to
make him aware of it.
Rape is a difficult subject. It is very sad that even one person suffers through
such a crime. It is also terrible that many such crimes are not reported,
because a rapist left uncaught often attacks more victims.Questioning statistics is perfectly valid. Newspaper writers often strike me
as being more lazy than book authors. Perhaps it's because they are rushed. It
would have been simple for the writer to insert a small parenthesized statement
(statistics from the "XYZ report ...") Too bad newspaper writers on all topics
are not more diligent in documenting their sources.Regarding the
Spencer W. Kimball quote, "It is better to die in defending one's virtue than to
live having lost it WITHOUT A STRUGGLE."It's already been noted this
is not official church doctrine. But I think it is good council.I am
male so perhaps you will ignore this. But I would sooner fight to the death than
allow myself to be raped. I would resist in every way. If the criminal still
overcomes me and I am still alive, during my recovery at least I would know I
did not give in. And I would certainly want the criminal prosecuted.
This anti-Mormon chris is out of his mind. He is trying to make the Mormons look
at fault for this. A wolf in sheeps clothing. Amazing how many anti-Mormons are
saying bad things about Mormons after a good Mormon girl was shot in happy
valley by an anti-Mormon. These Mormon haters are extremists like the KKK.
I used to have a copy of a letter that went out to all the bishops of the LDS
church from the First About (1985)Presidency instructing the bishops about rape
cases. It was in favor of the victum,,,,they were not at fault and were not to
be made to fill guilty. Why havent the bishops read this? It needs to be
reissued and in their handbooks.
Its a good thing you guys didn't quote other (non-LDS) religious leaders who
CLEARLY put most of the blame on women. Kimball doesnt hold a candle to the
evangelical leaders of his day...or worse, the prevailing attitude among many
middle-eastern religious cultures today. (But that's just no fun for the LDS
bashers.) If you really read what SWK is saying...he speaks of the
(unwarranted) hardship a woman who is raped faces in society...having an OPINION
to do anything to prevent that ridicule was not out of line in the 70's. (This
is why I like the "follow the CURRENT prophet" approach) I've never had (or
served with) a bishop who resembles anything written here so I can't comment on
that. I don't care when the article came or if the stats are legit...if more
victims come forward and law enforcement is more sensitive and responsible, it's
a good thing. No woman deserves any of itshame on ANYONE who wants to minimize
the article and topic!
Wow! To the comment the man wrote that he would fight to the death rather than
"allow" himself to be raped. That is quite a comment since women don't allow
themselves to be raped! Most women are not strong enough to fight off their
attacker. I would never want one of my daughters dead instead of surviving a
rape. No one knows how you would react in that type of situation. What if you
freeze in shock?! What if there is a knife to your neck? What if you are bound
up and can't move? You aren't giving in to a rape.
It has always been amazing how people unconsciously and/or deliberately skew
what is written for their own baseless arguement. I made no judgement, but you
may have felt threatened, so to clear your guilt you made something up to
justify your own behavior. It is okay to recognize guilt and do what
is right to get rid of it, so it doesn't come back to haunt you.Every man should accept responsibility for his thoughts and actions. We all
know that at some point ALL men who have violated women will be punished.
Whether publicly or privately they can not hide forever. If you are indeed
innocent of such things, you will have no guilt.Do not try to read
between the lines grasshopper, there are none.
I am a survivor of not only rape but early childhood molestation and have found
it amazing time and again how some people in my own religion cannot deal with
this topic.I remember very clearly when my group young women were
invited in with the adults for a lesson- on virtue and chastity. The woman gave
the lesson misusing a quote by Spencer W. Kimball that he would rather young
women die than have their virtue taken. That was it for me. Great, so Im as good
as dead. It has taken many years of therapy to get over this, as well as getting
better information from current living sources. Im not surprised at
the crime/report ratio. Some believe that if they survive, theyre damaged goods.
No one will want them. Thats because too many MEN arent equipped either to deal
with all the emotional turmoil that can come from these violent crimes. Im still
there, because although Im married, I still remember how it was for me trying to
date LDS guys.There have been good articles, but not everyone who
should read them does. One came in a late1997 Ensign. I wish there was a larger
amen to Poncho.
If only people were allowed to defend themselves, by the use of deadly weapons
such as firearms. Anyone who attempts to rape someone, deserves to die.Of course, instead, we teach our citizens to run to the police for help. A fat
lot of good that does for a victim of a crime like this.I can
promise you that if one or two rapist get their cahonies blown off, or wake up
dead the next day, campus rapes will decrease dramatically.BYU
campus is a a lightning rod for such crimes, because no one is allowed to defend
Here is something not mentioned at all!!!!How many women have been
molested by their Doctors ?That is also a high number !!!!!!
I was raped by a classmate in a college here in Utah. I reported it to
authorities and was very confused about what happened to me. This guy was very
charismatic, telling people that no girl could say no to him and spreading
rumors to humiliate me. I was told after I gave my report that it couldn't be
determined if it was consentual or not and sent to counseling. I have never
gotten over the confusion about what happened with this person who I thought was
my friend, but I can say that if it ever happens again, I will not report it.
It was so humiliating and painful to talk about and endure the rumors and looks
from people who thought I was lying or a liability to the college. The man was
later expelled from the college as other women came forward, but it didn't help
me feel any better about my own trust in people or trust in myself. I still
feel like I should have known what he was or fought harder.
To add to my last post. It scares me that this is so rampant out there and I
feel for those who have gone through this, it's disapointing to hear how many
have been treated, but the bottom line is that there may be people in the church
who may condemne or be misguided but the church itself does not look down on
those who have been victim of this, I know of no one who have been disciplined
for being the victim. Many have to understand that a Bishop is often learning as
well, they don't have a college for these gentlemen to go, they will make
mistakes. Not everyone called to be a bishop is going to do a great job! To
condemn the church as a whole is ridiculous. That's like saying Disneyland is a
bad place because one of there managers were rude and gave you bad advice.
I feel like Utahns are so occupied with being "clean" that we look away from
anything unpleasant or anything that would infringe our view of ourselves as
really good. I fear we turn our heads the other way and let too many of the
vulnerable among us become victims of rape and other abuses. Hopefully we can
wake up with stories like this and be willing to take an unflinching look at our
own communities and bring these horrible secrets to the light of day and
eliminate these hurtful acts.
Rape is a Violent Crime angainst another Human Being. In General the Victim does
nothing to cause the Rape. Even if the Victim "was doing things she/he was not
supposed to be doing. Such as Dress, Place, Making Out Gone To Far after being
told to stop etc. The Victim is not at fault. Protection of the Victim is of the
Upmost Importance. Many Young and even Middle Aged Women and Men want to not
realy embrace the World, they want to dip a toe in the World. Well sometimes
when you dip a toe there is a hand right there to grab an ankle and haul you
under. Temtation is a powerful force. Violent Rape is often an Expression of
Anger and Rejection. It is still a crime and needs to be punished to the fullest
extent of the law. Often the Victim is not the person that angered or rejected
the Rapeist. They are just in the wrong place at the wrong time. If there is a
stigma for reporting Rape then some women will not report it and would rather
die then be exposed to the result of reporting the Rape.
One of the greatest travesties for young BYU coeds is to think they are "safe"
while living in Provo. A few years back my daughter was attacked in her
apartment near the BYU campus. The Provo police treated all of us like we were
the guilty ones. I was livid at their attitude. It was my daughters fault. I
can't praise the women at the Provo womens center who believed us, and helped us
deal with it. No one can beat them selves in the face and body like my daughter
was beaten, but she did ward off the rape. Even BYU didn't want it brought up,
but she got on TV and told about her attack. BYU didn't like it. but I wouldn't
let it get swept under the carpet I was proud of my daughter for fighting back
and telling her story. We love BYU but not their attitude about secrecy on this
topic, but we have no love for Provo police. What a shame to put our daughters
out there just to save some face. This is not what I had expected, but it is
what we got. Shame on them, keep your girls safe.
After reading some of the comments here I'm not surprised that women/girls don't
report rape. Good ol "Arnie" says women shouldn't get on the internet. Women
shouldn't date certain men. Another comment was the classic that women
'deserve' it due to the way they were dressed. This is a victim blaming
mentality. The message here is clear. If you're raped it's your fault. If you
don't fight it's your fault.Arnie suggested women take classes on
avoiding rape. Why don't men take classes on dealing with feelings of violence
and why they are unacceptable?
I by no means am saying it is wrong to question statistics published by a
newspaper, or any other form of media. I am saying what difference does it make
if it's 1 or 400. Only that it happens. If you feel intimidated by someone who
is being blunt and to the point, perhaps you would do well not to comment on
something you have no personal experience in.My intentions aren't to intimidate.
That is a foolish game. Perhaps it is me that you are trying to intimidate into
silence because the truth doesn't present the clear picture that you have chosen
to perceive. If you really believed what you say about rape being an awful
thing, it wouldn't matter what the numbers are. And yes, I do speak from
personal experience, as a survivor. We have chosen to ignore public opinions
such as yours and get back up and live rather than die, so we can help others
who find themselves violated as well. Shame on you for caring more about
"numbers" than an actual living breathing human being created by God with an
actual purpose here on this earth, which is not to be another statistic.
By going to the authorities (hospital, police, family) immediately drugs can be
given to prevent HIV, and other diseases if given within a certain time frame.
Severity is by no means exaggerated. If anything, it's under rated due to
failure to report. Thinking like yours is what allows the perps to go free
without accountability for their actons and families left without mothers,
daughters, wives, families torn apart and devestated. Again, it shouldn't matter
the numbers, only that it happens and more needs to be done about it.
I qoute "HumbleDad" "Every man should accept responsibility for his
thoughts and actions. We all know that at some point ALL men who have violated
women will be punished. Whether publicly or privately they can not hide forever.
If you are indeed innocent of such things, you will have no guilt.Do
not try to read between the lines grasshopper, there are none."There
is many things in you last 2 posts that don't add up. Women aren't the only
victims. Sometimes women are the perpetrators, "Not just Every man" but every
Person. I dont' claim to know the stats, but most likely women are raped more.
But what about the men?You said "ALL men who have violated women will be
punished." Does that mean that if a woman violates a man or a woman, she won't
be punished? Or if a man violates a man, he won't be punished? DON'T make you
arguement that it is always the Men who are the problem, Or that it is ONLY
We need to explain out daughters and son about this danger. BYU liders have to
deal with the problem, we send our children and we think they are in a "safe"
place, the least they can do is to take the appropriate measures to have a safe
dampus environment. I know this is not an isolate problem of BYU. Most of the
university campus are having this problem, some of them are attacking the
problem fr om different points of view. As per us parents we need to teach our
children about this danger.
To Deliverance777:I also agree with "Shame on You." It DOES matter
whether it is 1 or 400. Would you rather live in a place where there are only a
few rapes a year or a few thousand??? Where would you feel safer??? Numbers DO
matter. Rape is indeed a horrible thing and there will always be rapes, so the
best you can do is lower the numbers through better law enforcement, stricter
punishment, etc. I realize that this is difficult to see for someone who is a
victim, but it is the truth
I seem to remember Elder Boyd K. Packer addressing the subject of rape some
years ago in an Ensign article. He compared the act to a house being
burglarized. Who would blame the house? Sorry, I don't remember all the
details or even what year the article was published, but I think you can check
the archives. Read for yourselves what the Church doctrine is before you post.
There is a difference in what is Church Doctrine and what people think is Church
Doctrine. It is of little value to tell a rape victim many years after the fact
that their bishop, whom they had absolute trust in, was wrong about church
doctrine. I know every case is different, but there are standards that could be
set for bishops to follow when certain sins, or in this case crimes, are
reported to a bishop. It is not unreasonable to suggest that a bishop should be
trained in these standards before he assumes the mantle. It has
happened and continues to happen that some bishops are wrong in their response
to rape victims. It should be standard that if a member of his congregation
reports a rape, that said bishop immediately encourages the victim to get the
police involved. They are the ones with the tools to both find justice and help
for the victim with counseling.
Again, to Deliverance777: shame on you for trying to stifle debate. I am not
offended by your comments, for I make it a point not to be offended by those who
refuse to debate issues, and instead rely on emotional rhetoric to make their
points. It certainly does make a difference whether there is 1 rape or 400, and
to state otherwise is quite possibly the dumbest thing I have heard this week.
If there were a sum total of 1 rape in Utah County per year, the victim would
still be in need of all the mercy and help we could possibly give her (or him),
but it would not be a widespread epidemic of violent crimes, as would be the
case if there were 400. Personally, I prefer accurate facts to rampant
speculation and hyperbole, because facts are useful to solve problems.
Hyperbole is useful only to demonize. If you want to demonize, you're not
helping any victims, especially yourself.
I am a survivor, not a victim. Those of you who are hung up on numbers yet
agreeing that the problem exists are sending mixed signals. Demonize? Isn't that
what is being done to millions of victims all over the world? Aren't they being
demonized for something happening to them that they had no control over? Do you
not understand that to victims, survivors, their families and loved ones,
numbers don't matter? Only that it happened and nothing is being done to stop
it? Feel free to debate all you want. Wasted words when nothing is being done to
bring a solution.
I am sure that every Bishop takes his calling seriously and does his best. But
we have to realize two things - 1) he is usually not an expert in crisis
counseling (ie rape), marriage therapy, financial planning, etc. Individual
Bishops may bring some outside expertise to their calling but many do not. 2) he
is not going to receive direct revelation on these topics when they are brought
to him. He will use his common sense, life experiences, what education or
professional experience he does bring, or follow the Bishop's handbook which
regularly changes over time. Therefore, members need to use their common sense
in taking important, life altering situations and decisions to the appropriate
professional rather than their neighbor who, while well meaning, is really just
that - someone in their neighborhood who has been called as the Bishop for the
moment. We are conditioned since we were youth with the talk of "mantle" or
"revelation" to the point that we put such important and personal decisions in
these men's hands.
The passion in these posts is quite remarkable, and verifies the need to
confront the issue. But what is the issue? Its unreported violent crimes!
This is not a Utah or LDS thing. Unreported rape is universal. However,
PARENTS can have a role (I have never "blindly" sent any of my kids to BYU as a
100% safety zone), and community leaders and law enforcement should be OUT IN
THE COMMUNITY TEACHING if these stats are even a smidgen of what they show. If
you HAVE to make it a religious issueGod will judge these victims with complete
mercyeven if the event led them completely astray. He will properly punish the
guilty. That is ONLY religious position one can really take. You just cant
blame a church (ANY church) that works to SAVE millions from moral decay using
pot shot examples of insensitivity. I would bet anything that developing
strong religious values has PREVENTED more rapes or molestation than well ever
know. All religions should be thanked for moral advocacy instead of condemned
for periodic failure.
It's insightful and important information, but it makes me wonder why the
Deseret Morning News is deciding to publish this article from 2003 with five
year old data? If DMN thought this was such an important topic to post to their
website (DMN controls whether old articles are made available for comment and
recently posted another article from 2003). It makes you wonder what the more
current Provo/Orem rape data looks like?
The police officer in this story has another calling to which he has yet to
respond. He displayed little insight in his comments and "Rapeville USA"
suggests an inclination toward a Barney Fife mentality.
I whole heartedly agree with this article, women should NEVER have to feel vile
or perverse after being attacked. However, we need to be sure they were in fact
attacked and not crying "rape" because they had sex and didn't want to account
for it. My roommates girlfriend said he raped her and after an investigation
(unnecessary at best) he was cleared and the charges dropped. There is so much
pressure to be perfect in our society and some girls would rather be the victim
then be accountable for having sex before they are married.
This is a horrible thing that should not be happening in the Provo area. I think
the rape stats are high there because it's an "easy" place to target women,
seeing that theres a University there. Also women who go there might feel safer
or less cautious being in Provo, and at a very religious and good school.The idea that women should fight to the death than be raped is from
Spencer Kimball in his book miracle of forgiveness.This was during the
70's when in my opinion the church had some social problems."Even in
a forced contact such as rape or incest, the injured one is greatly outraged. If
she has not cooperated and contributed to the foul deed, she is of course in a
MORE favorable position. There is no condemnation where there is no voluntary
participation. IT IS BETTER TO DIE IN DEFENDING ONE'S VIRTUE THAN TO LIVE HAVING
LOST IT WITHOUT STRUGGLE.This has been taught to many young women
within the church, because people don't see its Kimball's opinion, in his
introduction it said" no intent is implied that either the writer.....is
I wonder how many of these rapist are members of the Church and/or Return
Missionaires?? I ONLY feel sorry for the victims and their families not the
perp. These ladies put their trust in these guys who appear to be good and
"clean cut" but they turn up being the scum of the earth. But don't be
confussed, I not saying that ALL of these guys are Mormons, maybe just some of
them are. But you got to be carefull when you choose who you want to date. And
PLEASE REPORT these thugs to the police ASAP.
To those who claim they would resist rather than "allow " themselves to be
raped, have you ever been in a life and death situation? I have. I woke up in a
car and saw the people that had hit us were dead, heard my brothers dying cries
and saw my mom laying on the dashboard. Knowing how I easily I could have woken
up dead deeply shook me. I felt the need to live and it's painfully powerful. I
don't know what I would do in any situation because of that experience. I can
strut around and act all tough but think about it really. Someone who can easily
overpower you and probably has a weapon. Thats when reality sets in. Authorities
say survival is what is your priority. Not "fighting to the death". My heart goes to you survivors. Thank goodness you survived that terrible
ordeal. Please don't pay any mind to any church books saying the victim is at
fault. They are not experts. They do not understand what the body does in times
of terror and trauma. Bless you. One rape is one to many.
It is time that this community face reality.Sexual Abuse, Rape, Domestic
Violence is happening here in " Happy Valley."It is time that TRUTH goes
forward and it is openly known where to go for help. Women and Children in
Crisis Center, Bikers Against Child Abuse and Children's Justice Center just to
name a few organizations. The fear needs to stop and the education needs
to begin. Public Service Announcements would be so helpful !
unfortunately, these stats are common around the country. Rape is the number
one least reported crime ever. Who wants to admit to having been raped? After
all, any typical defense attorney will make you look like scum on the stand and
your life is ruined in the public as well as in your mind.
I am older, one of my children was molested by a baby sitter. She told her
mother, who approached the sitter's parents. I was never told, nor was it
reported to the police.I found out years later, and asked why I had
not been told. My wife said what would you have done and I said I would have
killed him. She ws right. She then said that she and the kids needed a husband
and a father.I was then and still am an active member. There are
many reasons for not reporting such things.
In the same line of thought, it's important to remember that there are "evil"
people in the Church (or any church or authority position) not because they were
good and turned evil, but because the evil look for places where they can
manipulate or best perpetrate their sick desires.I just shake my
head when people tell me that they don't lock their doors because they live in a
"safe neighborhood." Like criminals don't have cars!I try to trust
people but also try to keep my guard up. We can't prevent all criminal acts,
but we can at least do things to avoid being an easy target.Please,
don't anyone misrepresent my words to say that am saying the victim is at fault
or should have avoided the situation. Nobody EVER deserves to be the victim.
To each of you questioning statistics, I have been a victims' advocate at the
Center for Women and Children in Crisis for over 5 years now. In each of the
past 5 years, we have helped hundreds of people every year, whether it be crisis
line calls or actual responses to the hospital. All of the statistics are
recorded, and I can assure you that the 400 number is accurate. In the last 5
years as a center, we help between 300 and 500 people per year with support
groups, counseling, and information. While I think it's justifiable to question,
I am here to back up this person's stats. If any of you would like actual
numbers, feel free to contact the center and we would be happy to give you the #
of people that we helped, which is significantly higher than reported rape, and
significantly lower than unreported rape. I am a firm believer that education is
the best defense for this. End the stigma that comes with crimes of this nature,
and let's help the survivors.
I get a little frustrated when the mormon faith gets attacked in forums like
this. It seems as though political correctness goes out the window when mormons
enter the discussion. I'm not referring to the article here, I'm referring to
some of these posts. To implicate the mormon faith as a proliferator of sexual
abuse via church culture is unfair, not to mention inaccurate. This type of
rhetoric wouldn't be acceptable in a discussion about african american culture,
and it shouldn't be acceptable here. Sexual crimes happen in every society,
regardless of how religious or irreligious they are. One thing is for sure,
rape is not a tenet of mormon doctrine, nor any other legitimate faith.
Therefore, faith is not the problem. I understand though, that the
main point of contention with the mormon faith has to do with the quote from
President Kimball. I will address this issue later.
" This is terribly sad. But I wish they would explain how it is they estimate
that 90% go unreported if they're, well, unreported. " They know how
many rapes occur on average, and they exrapolate it from that. If they know that
in a city the size of Provo, 400 rapes occur per year and only 43 are reported,
then 43 is roughly 10% of 400.
I am highly skeptical of the officer's estimate that only 10% of rapes are
reported in Utah County. If this were based on an anonymous survey of women in
the county, I would be more likely to believe it. Even one rape is too much.
It used to be that rape was a capital crime -- a rapist could be executed. I
would be against that for only one reason: many non-rapists would be falsely
I took a criminal justice class in college taught by former BYU Police Chief.
He told me that a disturbing number of reported "rapes" on campus are really
nothing more than women feeling bad the next day that they did the deed. The
former Chief told us that some report rape when they find out they're pregnant
because being pregnant means they have to 'wear' their sin. They think it's
better to be seen as a rape victim than a promiscuous girl. Some, he said,
don't even understand what rape is.
Police officers have an important view of life (and crime, but it is not the
only view. First LDS women are not the only women who feel guilty after being
raped, women of all religions, and the non-religious, have felt that way for
decades--or longer. The police officer has myopia, or maybe has been in Provo
too long.And to claim there are over 400 rapes in Provo every year
is complete nonsense. Granted not all rapes get reported, but 400 rapes in
Provo? Does that mean there are 4000 rapes a year in SLC? I doubt that also.
Deal with what you know, officer, not what you imagine.
I think that most rapes are not reported especially in Provo because of the LDS
church. I know what you're thinking...here come all the bigoted "anti" remarks.
But hear me out. A friend of mine was an active member in the church when she
was raped/molested at the age of 13. She told her bishop of the incident, didn't
go to the police because the perpetrator was an "elder" in the church and never
reported him. Then she had to face the onslaught of abuse from the so-called
"counselors" that came to visit her on an almost daily basis for about a month.
They truly made her feel like less of human being, bombarding her with
scriptures and showering in a curtain of guilt for something she had no control
over. Eventually became manic depressive, lots of real counseling followed. She
ultimately left the church so she could move past the incident and get on with
her life, without the constant reminder of the way these people of "authority"
made her feel. And now is doing quite well.
People have a few points in their lives of which they are deeply ashamed. One
of these for me was my reaction to a girl I was dating when she disclosed to me
that she had been raped.My reaction involved much of what is being
said negatively about the church's view and treatment of the victim. Back to
the shame point I can barely talk about it anonymously to describe the details
of my reaction.I think it is a valid point that there is a spread
between doctrine and understood doctrine however I do not feel like there is
sufficient effort to bridge that gap.Emphasis in absolutes such as
pure vs. unpure. Member vs. non member. Returned missionary vs. non returned
missionary. Temple marriage vs. non temple marriage has caused too many people
too much pain. This emphasis misses the most fundamental doctrine that it is
not perfect behavior which saves us but rather the atonement.It is a
problem that people can not accept the victims. There is a problem in church
culture. Hopefully we can all look inside our own souls and work toward a
The story talks about two women who said they'd rather die, (or wished they had)
than be raped. I wonder how many utah rape victims truly feel that way because
I have talked to several rape victims and not one of them felt that way. These
are pretty inflamatory charges for the purpose of degrading the prominant
religion or for selling newspapers. That is irresponsible journalism.
I really don't see how it is a mixed signal at all to be in favor of greater
help for rape victims and greater punishment for rapists, while at the same time
wanting to avoid gross exaggeration of rape statistics. Those attacking myself
and others who challenge the unsupported claim of "90% of rapes unreported" seem
to believe that it is only through whipping everyone up into a frenzy that we
will ever take the problem seriously, and I just don't think that's correct. We
can take the problem more seriously by addressing it in a rational way, finding
out how bad the problem is, where the problem arises, and then going after those
responsible.As far as demonizing, grossly exaggerating the number of
rape cases serves only to demonize the class of possible rapists, which from
many of the comments on this thread includes every man walking the earth. Lower
numbers that we can prove indicate a small number of violent criminals; higher,
exaggerated numbers feed into the idea that every man out there could be one of
the "many" rapists running around that we don't know about.
Unfortunately, there does seem to be a doctrinal undercurrent that suggests
death should be preferred to losing one's virginity/chastity, but that idea is
simply false. The reality is that the victim is not the person responsible for
the crime at all (even though he/she may dress immodestly and not make clear
his/her values up front) All accountability resides with the perpetrator of the
crime not the victim, and purity is not lost in the case of rape, incest,
molestation, it is stolen and the victims require no repentance. They require
support and love.
don't blame the dominant religion of Utah County for making the victims feel
like they are "perverted" or "impure" if they lived through a rape. The LDS
Church Young Womens' auxiliary has had generations of programs to teach young
women that rape is a horrible and violent act perpetrated by evil predators.
They victims did nothing wrong--did nothing to deserve it. That the victims are
still innocent and pure after the attack. It is natural for rape victims to be
shattered emotionally and to feel dirty.
I don't necessarily doubt it, but how exactly did the Provo Police determine
that 90 percent of rapes go unreported?
As I have read the postings here, I hear a continuing theme that LDS and other
church leaders are preaching that the victims need repentence. That doctrine is
incorrect, and if it exists, ought to be erradicated. But, I wonder if ther
hasn't been some misunderstanding or confusion along the way. I cannot conceive
of a church leader telling a victim to repent or seek forgiveness, but I can
understand and have seen counsel to apply the Savior's atonement. There is a
difference. Suggesting that a victim seek the healing power of Christ love is
not the same as telling someone to repent, but that atonement heals much more
than sin. It can save the soul from fear and pain and trauma. It can help a
victim to forgive the abuser, thus freeing the victim from the damaging effect
of harbored hate. I suspect what has been characterized as counsel to repent
might have been counsel to apply the atonement. I hope that is true, though it
is sad that clergy, as humans, sometimes fall short.
I remember as a new convert in the early 80's hearing that it would be better
for a parent to bury a child who had fought for their virtue than for that child
to lose their virtue- that really upset me. At the time the conventional wisdom
for women if they were being attacked or raped was to not fight back- that they
would more likely be killed then. Since then the law inforcement people have
done a 180 on it- Now they tell you to fight back any way you can (which is why
self defense classes are important for women) Classes for men would be
good too- NO means NO etc. and how to spot other guys who may be perpetrators of
Date Rape- The thing we need to realize too- for victims, and for those
who have just strayed(I'm talking virtue here) Isn't the atonement big enough to
cleanse and to heal?
I don't believe this article is accurate. I am not saying that rapes do not go
unreported. I believe that every victim should report this crime. My
faith (I am LDS) does not preach that anyone who is a victim of rape is impure
or unchaste. Only a victim can really understand the range of emotions one might
feel after a rape.
Rape - bad - very bad. That said, (and this is from a former law enforcement
officer) Arnie Lemmon is not qualified to make this kind of wild assertion. I
can tell you that with more experience in the same area this number is an
This article brought me to tears, that was me when I was twelve and was raped.
It is so confusing for a young girl to be told in church that you should be
saving yourself for marriage and then to go through the trauma of the rape. I
did try and kill myself shortly after because of the thought that I wasn't
worthy or that I hurt my family. I think more LDS families need to be straight
forward with their children about sex and it needs to be brought to the
attention of the teachers in church that they don't know what the girls have
gone through in their classes and this straight forward black and white way of
teaching can cause more harm that good.
How do you know how many unreported rapes there are, unless the unreported ones
are reported???There's no way to know how many rapes are unreported
unless they're reported, in which case they're no longer "unreported"This is a logical contradiction, a fictitious black swan argument (an
unknowable - per Nicholas-Taleb).Silly.
This thread had gotten totally out of hand with charges being made willy nilly
from all sides. To wit: The police report on "unreported rapes" but
the newspaper and the police never, ever say how they come up with the
statistic. Why shouldn't that be questioned.It has absolutely
nothing to do with the wild side trips a majority of you on here took. Talk
about, rumor, snide remarks, dumb comments, even dumber questions too many felt
needed to be posted. You didn't want answers, you wanted to feel important. You
missed.Don't ask questions if you don't have the answer and are
totally unwilling to listen to the answer given by those who know. i.e. "why
don't bishops read their handbooks" That was a classic. That makes the
assumption that none do. Dumb. Clear the hard drive.
Seven years ago I to was raped while studying at BYU, by a guy who was a RM and
a supposed "good priesthood holder and role model". When I reported it I was met
with contempt and disbelief with sayings of he would never do that, are you sure
and many other comments that just humilated me. My friends ostracized me and
eventually I left ashamed of myself. My Bishop was excellent and
helped build up my self esteem over a long period of time. Now I am married to a
wonderful man and have a beautiful daughter and life is great. As to the
perpetrator, last I heard he was convicted of multiple sexual offences,
including rape and is doing a 20 year jail term, with men that I hope are doing
things to him what he did to me and many other women.Rape does
happen in the LDS community, Women are the victim not the problem...but you can
get past it. I have!
I mentioned earlier that I would address this issue of church doctrine
supporting the loss of life over the loss of "virtue". This idea comes from lds
literature, not scripture. Obviously, there is a substantial difference between
the two in regards to their validity as official church doctrine. However, even
if one were to view Spencer W. Kimball's statements as being doctrinal, there is
no grounding in saying that this position is unchristian. Christ took many
"hard-line" positions that seem to disagree with a conventional type of
compassion. For example, Christ said that those who divorce for any cause other
than fornication, and then remarry, are in adultery. There are other biblical
examples in which those speaking on behalf of God take a very "hard-line"
position. I think that it is important to examine the context in which these
type of statements are often made. It is commonly believed that Christ's
position on divorce was based on a celestial law, not temporal church law. In
LDS doctrine there are some laws that are accepted as true, but not currently
expected of it's members (i.e. the law of consecration). President Kimball's
comments might be viewed in the same way.
The reason for this sad situation of wrong overpowering feeling of loosing one's
virtue by mormon rape victims can be found in their own church's teaching. In
Moroni 9:9 it says-"For behold, many of the daughters of the Lamanites have they
taken prisoners; and after depriving them of that which was most dear and
precious above all things, which is chastity and virtue--" and in such teachings
as this- The Prophet Heber J. Grant "...There is no true Latter-day Saint who
would not rather bury a son or daughter than to have him or her lose his or her
chastity -- realizing that chastity is of more value than anything else in all
the world."Of course the outcome of such insane teaching would be a
feeling of total worthlisness by any mormon rape victim. Truly sad.
ape is forced, unwanted sexual intercourse. Rape, sometimes also called sexual
assault, can happen to both men and women of any age.Rape is about
power, not sex. A rapist uses actual force or violence – or the threat of
it – to take control over another human being. Some rapists use drugs to
take away a person's ability to fight back. Rape is a crime, whether the person
committing it is a stranger, a date, an acquaintance, or a family member.No matter how it happened, rape is frightening and traumatizing. People
who have been raped need care, comfort, and a way to heal.What
Should I Do?What's the right thing to do if you've been raped? Take care
of yourself in the best way for you. For some people, that means reporting the
crime immediately and fighting to see the rapist brought to justice. For others
it means seeking medical or emotional care without reporting the rape as a
crime. Every person is different.There are three things that
everyone who has been raped should do, though:Know that the rape
wasn't your fault.Seek medical care.Deal with your feelings.