Deseret News | Reader comments: 90% of Provo rapes not reported to police

Reader comments
90% of Provo rapes not reported to police

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mlolmon | 12:38 p.m. Jan. 26, 2008

Well, that's messed up

I know | 1:37 a.m. Jan. 27, 2008

as growing up ...many were told something i could never understand ..that was confusing to me as a man ...better to die than to give it up..until i ended up saving three potential rape victums and saw the truma caused to the victum. It is a violent crime. The guy needs to pay everyday!

Anonymous | 2:35 a.m. Jan. 27, 2008

she should have died before that happened to her? wow that really is so sad that she believes that like i felt terrible when i first read that. it is terrible to think that a man could do that to a woman.... it might sound cliche, but what is this world coming to?

Comments continue below

Tragic | 2:43 a.m. Jan. 27, 2008

It is incredibly sad that someone could think they are unpure when they are raped. Purity has everything to do with your intent and desires, not what happens to you. If you had no impure desires or motives and someone raped you, how could you consider yourself impure? YOU are just as pure as before.

I think this article is a representation of where we are as a society. It would be convenient to categorize rapists as just "monsters" because then we can separate ourselves from them easily, but if we really looked into it we would understand that they are just one step, albeit a VERY LARGE STEP, from a normal functioning person. The events that lead them to taking that large step is tragic.

I will post an incredible quote after this that, I believe, shows a little into how a person can get to that point.

Anonymous | 8:09 a.m. Jan. 27, 2008

Educating young Women and Men regarding sexual matters (herpes,aids etc,) as well as offensive and defensive behaviours is a must in these times, to still have Young Women bearing the responsibility from Her Community/Family and feeling rage and frustration and fear because She's been taught not to respond to the authorities or let anyone know only sends a message to those so inclined to sexual violence, that this is a safe environment to persue thier actions...

Truth | 8:16 a.m. Jan. 27, 2008

Chastity and virginity are not the same. A rape victim does not lose chastity, which is the greatest virtue she/he can bring to her/his marriage. LDS men and women should understand this and not devalue themselves because of rape. They are still priceless children of God and are chaste.

WOMEN | 8:26 a.m. Jan. 27, 2008

pLEASE BECOME MORE EDUCATED AS THIS OFFICER HAS BECOME ONE OF YOUR GREATEST TOOLS..NO LONGER CAN WE SIT BY AND LET THIS HAPPEN TO GOOD SISTERS. PROTECT AND BE VIGILANT! PROSECUTE EVERYONE OF THEM AS YOU WILL BE SAVING OTHERS!THIS IS A SICK , VICIOUS CRIME!

Matt | 8:50 a.m. Jan. 27, 2008

I don't understand why Mormon women feel that way. Girls, please know that you are the victim and I as a man would show an increased level of love and support if you were the victim of rape. I don't know anyone who would condemn you for being raped.

Matt | 8:53 a.m. Jan. 27, 2008

Five or 6 years ago, someone showed me some Anti-Mormon literature that said rape was highest in Utah country than anywhere else in the nation.

A friend explained it to me that it was most likely that reported rape was highest in Utah county because girls would go to their bishops if they were raped and he would encourage them to report it to the police, where as other communities a lot of rapes go unreported in other communities.

This article dispels that theory. Can anyone comment on this? Is Utah county still one of the highest in the nation?

Joe Moe | 9:01 a.m. Jan. 27, 2008

This is terribly sad. But I wish they would explain how it is they estimate that 90% go unreported if they're, well, unreported.

Tumbleweed Tom | 9:16 a.m. Jan. 27, 2008

What's wrong with telling women to train to carry a Taser, knife, gun or other weapon to protect them from the Hell the girls described in this article are going through?

Wendy | 10:07 a.m. Jan. 27, 2008

Rapes (especially date rape) are not reported in Utah because everybody is so judgmental and blames the victim! I was raped. But victims of rape in Utah are accused of wearing immodest clothing, or not following the spirit and going places they should not be, or not listening to the still small voice tell them when a guy is a bad guy, etc. I was horrified by how I was treated after the attack.

Anonymous | 10:33 a.m. Jan. 27, 2008

I can understand why these girls say they wish they had not lived. Even though everyone knows they did nothing wrong, how could you feel anything BUT unclean after someone does such an awful thing to you? There is nothing wrong with these girls feeling this way.
Frankly, if they felt fine afterwards, I would be MORE worried about them.
There is nothing wrong with our society if these girls feel like this, they just need love and support by those who truly care about them. That is where we run into trouble, with the loved ones not acting appropriately after the fact. The burden is on the family and friends of these girls to help them know they still are pure.

Estimates | 10:39 a.m. Jan. 27, 2008

The article said that only about 40 of an estimated 400 rapes in Provo were reported. I don't mean to sound like a skeptic, but how do they get to that number of 400? Is it based on the national average?

Daughters | 10:48 a.m. Jan. 27, 2008

who cares about the numbers...this is hell to any amount of women. One raises and nurtures the ladies then something evil comes this way. Take precaution as these evil doers are becomming more sophisticated and lack any compassion. Don't be so Naive!

Pray for Provo. | 11:05 a.m. Jan. 27, 2008

It's better to DIE than lose your virginity?

Yes Provo, and the Earth is flat (and only 6000 years old), evolution doesn't exist, women shouldn't be allowed to vote, blacks don't deserve the priesthood,
and the Easter Bunny is real.

True Story | 11:30 a.m. Jan. 27, 2008

Tumbleweed Tom,

Because they might activate one of those things in church!!!

My favorite farewell ended with the entire congregation being maced by one girl fiddling with the can inside her purse. The building was evacuated, and bishops argued with the Stake President how they would now report attendance because of budgetary issues.

Having been one of the hundreds maced in this incident, I kind of wonder how effective those sorts of deterrents are. They could always be turned against the victim and make things worse for her/him. She could wind up dead even, if the deterrent was a gun or a knife.

Our laws on rape need to include the death penalty for those who are serial rapists or rape young children. I just hope the Supreme Court upholds the one capital punishment rape case that is before them right now, and that other states put similar laws on the books.

400 is a bit hard for me to swallow. I too wonder where that number comes from. There is quite a few that aren't reported, but I pray that number is no where near 400.

The Authority | 12:28 p.m. Jan. 27, 2008

Weird. If only 10 percent of the rapes are reported, how do they know the other 360 or so occured? How do they know only 10 percent are reported? How do you track things that are not reported? How do you quantify statistics without somekind of numerical evidence? It seems to me if you can track the number of rapes that aren't reported, you have a way of helping and/or encouraging those women report those rapes to the cops. Where did this Lemmon get her info? Sounds almost like she just made it up.

Anyway, its horrible and sad that some women feel they can't report this ugly, violent crime. All rapes should be reported, and offenders prosecuted to the limits of the law!

Anonymous | 1:08 p.m. Jan. 27, 2008

This is not a well written article. A topic like this should be given much more thought. Please back up your statistics. A half attempt at trying to write an article on a subject like this is a slap in the face of victims.

YW Leader | 1:12 p.m. Jan. 27, 2008

A lot of the "beliefs" that a rape robs you of your purity is because we, as a group, don't teach our young women with straight talk. If parents and leaders don't teach girls with frank discussions, these misconceptions happen. The discussion doesn't have to be disgusting, but it should be straight forward. As a Young Women leader in the church, I have very honest discussions with the girls and they appreciate it. This is an adult world and we're sending them out into it - they need to be prepared.

mom | 2:30 p.m. Jan. 27, 2008

It isn't that people look at them differently. It is that they themselves perceive that they are looked at differently. It is a sad by product of any rape

Bad Statistics | 2:32 p.m. Jan. 27, 2008

Rape statistics have been a topic of debate for years. I'd love to find where these numbers actually come from.

Rape is underreported - as are all crimes. Many crimes are too embarrassing to report, some not worthwhile to report, etc.

Numerous so-called studies of "rape" have counted even unwanted advances or inappropriate comments as "rape".

I have strong empathy for rape victims - don't get me wrong. But if we're going to start throwing around numbers trying to make some sort of change in public policy, let's actually make sure those numbers mean something.

Response to Matt's question | 2:37 p.m. Jan. 27, 2008

In 2004, Utah was 17th in the U.S. for rates of forcible rape, at 39.1 per 100,000 people. You can google search the information pretty easily, actually.

Your anti-Mormon friend was way off, some states have rates more than double what Utah has.

Nevertheless, 39.1 is terrible. And the treatment the victims seem to be getting is absurd.

Stat Guy | 2:43 p.m. Jan. 27, 2008

Someone please explain to me where he arrives at the 400 figure????? All I got was 43 reported in Utah, and suddenly it's 400. Help?!

Rich | 2:47 p.m. Jan. 27, 2008

I'm a Criminal Justice/Forensics student at SUU. Just to clear up any confusion...there are two seperate crime reporting systems. There's the UCR (uniform crime report) which is database based on crimes that were REPORTED to the police and there is the NCVR (national crime victimization survey) which is a database based on a survey sent out to people asking if they were victims of a crime and if so...what one. The victimization survey is completely anonymous so you can infer that there are many crimes victims do not report. Unfortunately rape is one of the highest. In my criminology class the statistic given was as high as a 60% difference nationwide between rapes reported and actual rapes that occur (with a +/- 5% margin of error). Hope this helps.

Rich | 2:57 p.m. Jan. 27, 2008

BTW: I can't post a URL in here but if anyone is really interested in this do a google search on "Bureau of Justice Statistics" and then click on "Crime and Victims"

NY | 3:06 p.m. Jan. 27, 2008

It is so sad that some of these young women feel like they did something wrong and that they wished they had died. It does bother me that some fellow LDS are so hard lined about these types of things. I cringe at the thought of telling a young women that she should fight to the death in such a situation (and then she feels guilty for not having done that). I also cringe when I hear somebody say that they would rather their son come home in box than to be sent home early from his mission. Come on! This is over doing it. Bad things happen and mistakes are made. The focus should be on loving and nursing them back to emotional health.

No Name | 4:09 p.m. Jan. 27, 2008

Even recently in YW (two years ago) I was taught that the sin second only to murder is sexual sin, and that we should be willing to sacrifice our lives rather than to be violated or lose our purity.

People can say what they want about the way things should be, but the way things really are in the Church is still teaching this kind of stuff.

Anonymous | 4:10 p.m. Jan. 27, 2008

I agree with one of the anonymous posters who said 'how could you feel anything but unclean..' I live in California, and this certainly isn't a Utah, Provo, LDS thing at all. Rape is a horribly underreported crime, and many, if not most, victims feel like they've done or become something wrong by going through it. The judgmentalism about it spans just about all cultures, religions, etc, etc. There will always be people who will question if it was her fault, there will always be people who doubt it happened, there will always be people who treat the victim differently after than they did before, and you'll find that everywhere. It's wrong, but it's just the way things are.

What's the Point | 4:26 p.m. Jan. 27, 2008

Men are the problem?

I simply don't see the point of statements like that.

So what does he suggest we do? Eradicate all men?

Statements like that don't serve any meaningful purpose, other than to increase hatred and fear of men, which is sort of a stupid thing to do. Misogyny is a big problem in our society, but misandry is also (increasingly) becoming a problem.

I love how he also trivializes the rape of men: "yeah it happens - but it doesn't happen very often, so it's not important." (Interestingly it does happen quite often in prisons, but I'm sure he'd think that's quite fine and acceptable and they really deserve it anyways because they're bad.)

This is not to detract from the tragedy that this article describes - it is absolutely terrible that this should happen to anyone. But comments like his do absolutely nothing to help the problem - nothing at all. They in fact just create other problems that will have to be solved someday.

Meg | 5:51 p.m. Jan. 27, 2008

Rape does not always mean full penetraion. It can also mean sexual molestation.
Usually victims usually knows the rapist. It can be date rape, dressing/acting like a slut (attracts the wrong kind of men.. that's the danger). Somehow you came across as a 'victim". (However, that dosen't lessen the crime or make the rapist less evil.) The rapist usually targets his intended victim. He may pretend to be a fellow church goer, he may be a "member" of your religion, or he'll act like a friend. Look at Bundy.
As for the LDS Church not being frank with the girls... isn't that really the parents responsiblty? That's like saying it's the YW leaders job to teach the girls about sex. You can teach self defense, and that's approbiate. That's in any Church, LDS, Catholic or Evangelist.
About the feeling you should die. I don't know any rape victim that during the initial grieving part that did not felt that way. It's normal. It's not something caused by a religion. My friend felt that way when her boyfriend raped her.. and she is Aethist. After she healed she became an advicant for self-defense to prevent date-rape.

Anonymous | 5:57 p.m. Jan. 27, 2008

Quote: Even recently in YW (two years ago) I was taught that the sin second only to murder is sexual sin, and that we should be willing to sacrifice our lives rather than to be violated or lose our purity.

People can say what they want about the way things should be, but the way things really are in the Church is still teaching this kind of stuff.

Your YW class may have done that, but when my Bishop talked about it in Sacarament recently (singles ward) he made it clear that that is not the Church's stand on it. Purity has nothing to do with rape.. you are still pure. And that the General Authorities have never said it's better to sacrafice your life than to be raped, or in a different sense, lose your purity. (AKA you sleep around before marriage.)

Lets be Candid | 6:10 p.m. Jan. 27, 2008

As a young woman, which was not too long ago I'm a BYU Student right now. I listened to a talk given in a fireside by a young women who visited a foreign country and was almost raped. She stated that she would have died before giving up her virginity. I was molested as a child and thought, perhaps I should have asked to be killed as well. I struggled with this idea throughout high school. Fortunately, I have a strong will and self-determination. I sought counseling as a young co-ed and straightend out my head. Unfortunately not all students are as lucky as I am. When speaking to your children about values emphasize that vicitimization does not constitute a loss of virtue. They are not the same and should not be treated as such. That is why the victims identities are kept anonymous. There are some crazy people who do not understand that bad things happen to good people through no fault of their own.

Provenance | 6:29 p.m. Jan. 27, 2008

After volunteering for over a year as an advocate for my local Rape Crisis Center, I do believe the statement that most rapes are not reported. As a volunteer, I would meet with rape victims at the local emergency rooms, help them through the medical exam, inform them of their legal options, inform them of rape counseling resources, etc. A rape victim could choose whether or not to report the rape to police. Of the approximately 20-25 victims I helped, I can remember only one or two who chose to report the crime.

Reporting a rape is a very difficult experience for an already traumatized victim. They must relate every detail of the rape to a police officer and undergo a rather invasive rape exam. In the end, most rapist are never found or charged.

I wish these statistics were different. No one should have to experience this form of violence. At the very least, hopefully we can make rape victims understand that the rape was NOT their fault and that they are still good people.

BArmstr | 6:46 p.m. Jan. 27, 2008

My daughter was sexually assaulted in Provo in 2007. She called the Provo police. Waited four days for a return call. Nothing. To this day, she has not been contacted. We are looking at months now. Wonder why the statistics are so low. They donï¿½t care.

Lynn | 6:58 p.m. Jan. 27, 2008

30 years ago, I reported my incestuous father (not lds) and his abuse towards me...a new member at age 18, and I was instructed by my bishop to read the Miracle of Forgiveness to understand what I had done wrong..??? I think these poor bishops had not been equipped on how to deal with this sort of thing. I hope that is no longer the case, but cultural attitudes die hard. Sometimes it takes generations, sadly.

lady | 9:22 p.m. Jan. 27, 2008

I think that most rapes go unrepoted because you don't want to feel like an outcast. you get the feeling that no one will in church will understand you and they will treat you differently!

Eli | 9:52 p.m. Jan. 27, 2008

BArmstr,

I am saddened to hear of your daughter's experience, and the complete lack of help you received.

You've probably done this already, but if you haven't, I would encourage you to contact the police department and let someone there know of your situation and how things have been handled--or rather not handled.

People do care.

untitled | 10:02 p.m. Jan. 27, 2008

This story saddens and sickens me at the same time. Rape is one of the most violent and horrible acts that can happen to anyone. My mother was raped at the young age of 15. The rapist laughed at her as if he was proud of what she did. She told no one and felt that she was no longer worthy of being a good LDS woman. She thought that no man would ever want her. In the LDS culture we are taught the principles of chastity and virginity. When someone violenty takes that away from you, no matter if you are LDS or not - you have been victimized beyond belief. I cannot imagine the pain that these victims go through in overcoming this great trial. Any judgement these preditors receive, here or in the afterlife, is not strong enough. We not only need to educate women and girls but also educate the men. They are most likely the ones committing this crime. How can we reverse it? This is not just an issue for the LDS but for women everywhere.

Estimates | 10:12 p.m. Jan. 27, 2008

This really IS NOT a well written or well researched article. It's as if facts are a burden and we should just look past them and understand the 'bigger picture' that the author intended. If someone is going to make the claim that 90% of rapes in Provo go unreported, back it up. It's what we used to call journalism.
As far as people in the LDS church thinking that a rape victim is somehow not pure, educate yourselves on the doctrine. That is one of the most ridiculous things I've heard. Of course a rape victim is still pure. Good grief! Excuse me while I go pull my hair out.

Awsomeron | 11:22 p.m. Jan. 27, 2008

I should not be that way, but it often is. Women should report True Rape Promptly. The offender should be cought and punished to the fullest extent of the law. However the fear and the stigma still exist. It is not the fault of the Dogma but is in part a result of the Dogma. Rape is not a sex act it a Violent Crime against the person who is Raped. The results can mess a person and their perhaps good relationships up for life. There can be guilt and baggage and social added baggage that will last a life time. The Idea is sometimes if you don't report the crime then it diden't happen. If you report it you are somehow less a person. Of course the victim is not less of a person. I feel bad for any Women who is Truely Raped. Even if she was "doing things she should not have been doing" That idea is judgemental and very wrong. Somewhat sick as in "if you play out side the box then you are going to get yours" Sometimes awful stuff happens to people that follow all the rules, just does.

Anon | 11:31 p.m. Jan. 27, 2008

Did anyone else besides me notice that this article was published October 16, 2003? What has caused it to garner so much attention more than 4 years after appearing in the paper? The article is supposedly based upon 2002 statistics, but as pointed out by many commenters, those stats are not explained or verified in any way. A better written, more fully researched article on this topic would be useful. Perhaps a follow-up story, based on solid, current statistics would be in order...

to be continued

Anon II | 11:39 p.m. Jan. 27, 2008

On a happier note, at least this article generates a discussion that will hopefully bring about change in the attitudes of both rape victims and LDS church leaders. This cannot be a bad thing. It is a sad and unfortunate reality that rape victims in Utah and everywhere often feel a sense of guilt and embarrassment for something that IS NOT THEIR FAULT. It is an equally sad and unfortunate reality that church leaders, LDS and otherwise, have for generations stigmatized victims and wrongfully contributed to their guilt feelings by making them feel like they bore some responsibility for what happened to them. In fact, for many years, LDS leaders preached from the pulpit that a young woman would be better to give up her life than her virtue, perpetuating the myth that virtue can somehow be stolen. That view has thankfully been repudiated by the church, but apparently some leaders haven't got the message. Hopefully, with continued efforts by the church hierarchy, and education from well-researched and -written articles on this topic, the slow learners among us will come to understand, and rape victims will become more comfortable reporting and receiving help for the crimes against them.

Father of victim | 11:58 p.m. Jan. 27, 2008

My heart goes out to victims described in this article. So much still needs to be done to change attitudes in our testosterone-driven, blame-the-victim society. I know from personal experience that this is a widespread problem faced by young men as well as young women. I also know from personal experience that at least within the last 10 years, there were still LDS church leaders who believed that teen-aged, and even pre-teen victims of sexual abuse needed to repent for what they had done. I think I convinced one that he was wrong. Hopefully, there aren't more lurking out there who are damaging the fragile psyches of our youth through their ignorance. We all need to be vigilant to root out these harmful attitudes, wherever we may find them.

Sympathetic | 12:53 a.m. Jan. 28, 2008

An important point that has not been made is that promptly reporting to a local emergency room is important for many reasons after a sexual assault. It allows for documentation, collection of DNA, initiation of investigation, and connection to a psychological support system. Of course, this does not change the stigma which has been associated with sexual assault victims. Hearing personal accounts is often heartbreaking, and the compounded aspects of feeling unworthy/impure makes these crimes truly devastating. Hopefully we can do a better job of teaching these victims (male and female) that they are in fact victims. After that realization, then progress can be made to overcome the feelings of guilt and/or impurity.

so very sad | 2:15 a.m. Jan. 28, 2008

As a life-long church member, I remember sitting through many standard nights and seminary lessons all about this subject. "It is better to come home in a pine box than to have a sexual sin." What a horrible thing to tell a child. And we were told that very thing.

Yes, we as a culture tend to blame the victim, all victims. In a burglary: the victim didn't secure their possessions well enough. In a rape: either the victim wore too provocative of clothing, or was jogging alone, or didn't fight hard enough to get away.

All these arguments are baloney. Bad things do happen to good people. Heavenly Father won't always protect you from bad things. If He did, it would take away the agency of His other children. I wish that bad things could only happen to people who are bad, but in this life, that's not the way of it.

As far as not coming forward - who can blame a victim for not wanting to be villified by the press, their church, family or the prosecution.

james | 5:05 a.m. Jan. 28, 2008

Persons attitudes do need to be changed. You cannot blame the victim. It is never right to abuse someone-esp. sexually. It takes a sick person to do this. I have seen the horrible effects of this in people's lives-men and woman. SOme people have made choices and are bad people and their chances of changing are very slim. Mormon's need to be aware of these kinds of people. One cannot and should not take responsibility for someone else's actions even if that person doesn't own up. People need to be made accountable for their own actions and victims need sympathy, not blame. Knowing about narcissists and abusive people with no consciences is a good thing. Not all people are like you people need to know and not all people are going to change and become good. Some choose to be bad and stay bad and enjoy being bad. I learnt this the hard way.

To the so very Sad | 7:10 a.m. Jan. 28, 2008

Thanks for your honesty.Being rape is not sexual sin in the part of the victim; it is a gross vialation to the person body and spirit. It is time to stop protecting organizations "Right or Wrong". There are bad seeds everywhere. When things like that happen, they should be reporte to the police. The community shoul rally around the victims in support through counseling and in love.

deliverance777 | 7:44 a.m. Jan. 28, 2008

Rape is rape. Reported or not. For those of you who are balking at "numbers" how dare you trivilize the pain of someone else in your narrow-minded arrogance. Men usually are the problem. Rape, like domestic violence, is a power and control issue. And neither rape or domestic violence rank in the top 50 high priority lists of law enforcement and justice in Provo. Other cities as well. Attitudes like those who are so cynical in their comments to this article, are attitudes which make women feel hopeless and helpless, powerless to defend themselves physically, emotionally, mentally and publically. Why report it if there isn't going to be anything done about it? Why report it if you are just going to be adding public humiliation to your already private hell you are living in? Would you feel the same way if this happened to you or someone you loved? Even someone who was a mere acquaintence? If you refuse to be a part of the solution, then at least do it with your mouths shut and stop condemning victims.

LM | 7:59 a.m. Jan. 28, 2008

I was a student at BYU more than 30 years ago. While walking to my job on campus early in the morning a man drove by slowed down and was exposing himself to me. I got his license number and kept repeating it all the way to work. I walked in, wrote it down and told my boss to call the Provo Police. My boss was excellent. They came quickly and took down my info. They called me later and said they kept driving by the mans house and finally his car was home. They felt the cars hood and it was still warm. I cannot remember if they questioned him but I think they did. Nothing was done beyond that. I wonder if he went on to rape women. I was lucky that time.

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