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Healing the rift between Brigham and Emma
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Inquirying Minds Want to Know | 4:20 a.m. June 25, 2009
So where is a copy of the document so we can evaluate it for ourselves?
Robert - St. George | 5:34 a.m. June 25, 2009
Don't Mormons believe that life continues after death? I mean that is why
you have temples, right? Doesn't anyone think that Brigham Young and Emma
Smith have already gotten together and mended fences on the other side??? Good
grief. I mean think about it.
Cats | 7:07 a.m. June 25, 2009
I'm having a hard time seeing why Brigham Young's descendants should
"apologize." I don't see how an individual or a group can
apologize for actions, policies, etc. that they had no part in. Any apologies,
if appropriate, should be between Brigham and Emma themselves.
However, having said that, I don't think Brigham treated Emma very well, especially in view of the fact that her husband had just been murdered. I also think that she seemed almost determined to take offense at just about everything that happened.
I do think the idea of a healing document is good. I had no idea that Joseph's descendants actually thought that Brigham was part of the conspiracy to murder Joseph. That is as absurd as it gets.
However, clearly, the RLDS (Community of Christ) have some misguided notion that they were somehow screwed over by the LDS many years ago. That has, unfortunately, kept many from coming into the Church. Now, maybe the healing can begin and many of those people will be able to come into the Church and we can go forward.
However, having said that, I don't think Brigham treated Emma very well, especially in view of the fact that her husband had just been murdered. I also think that she seemed almost determined to take offense at just about everything that happened.
I do think the idea of a healing document is good. I had no idea that Joseph's descendants actually thought that Brigham was part of the conspiracy to murder Joseph. That is as absurd as it gets.
However, clearly, the RLDS (Community of Christ) have some misguided notion that they were somehow screwed over by the LDS many years ago. That has, unfortunately, kept many from coming into the Church. Now, maybe the healing can begin and many of those people will be able to come into the Church and we can go forward.
Comments continue below
Mrs. Jensen | 7:14 a.m. June 25, 2009
I know of a man who was very unhappy with the RLDS and the many factions that
were condending for power within that organization. He came out to Salt Lake,
checked out the LDS Church and subsequently was baptized. He brought 17 family
members into the Church with him.
He told the missionaries that he would have been baptized many years earlier had he known the truth. But, as an RLDS, he had been taught all his life that the LDS Church was terrible and that they had done terrible things to the RLDS. Of course, this wasn't true, but that was what he had been taught. He was so grateful to join the Church and feel whole and at peace.
It would be so great if the rift could be healed and these people could come back into the Church. I really hope so.
He told the missionaries that he would have been baptized many years earlier had he known the truth. But, as an RLDS, he had been taught all his life that the LDS Church was terrible and that they had done terrible things to the RLDS. Of course, this wasn't true, but that was what he had been taught. He was so grateful to join the Church and feel whole and at peace.
It would be so great if the rift could be healed and these people could come back into the Church. I really hope so.
Instereo | 7:16 a.m. June 25, 2009
It's sad there was a rift between Brigham Young and Emma Smith but there
was for some reason. You can see the effects of it when you compare the LDS
church to the Community of Christ Church (the old RLDS).
I also think it's interesting that the LDS are now trying to make Emma Smith one of their own to the point of elevating her status as an "Elect" Lady (much like Catholics did to Mary).
I wonder though since people are speculating how Emma and Brigham would have reconciled if they would have had an opportunity to talk if they ever want to speculate what the church would look like if Joseph had lived. Would Joseph and Brigham even remained as friends if Brigham would have had to submit to Joseph's will as they grew older.
It's easy to say what happened was the Lord's will but I wonder which path after Joseph's death was the path the Lord wanted people to follow. This choice is the real rift of two families and bridging it is more then just an apology but an entire outlook on life.
I also think it's interesting that the LDS are now trying to make Emma Smith one of their own to the point of elevating her status as an "Elect" Lady (much like Catholics did to Mary).
I wonder though since people are speculating how Emma and Brigham would have reconciled if they would have had an opportunity to talk if they ever want to speculate what the church would look like if Joseph had lived. Would Joseph and Brigham even remained as friends if Brigham would have had to submit to Joseph's will as they grew older.
It's easy to say what happened was the Lord's will but I wonder which path after Joseph's death was the path the Lord wanted people to follow. This choice is the real rift of two families and bridging it is more then just an apology but an entire outlook on life.
Anonymous | 7:25 a.m. June 25, 2009
Brigham's attitude towards Emma was uncalled for. However, that is a
battle left in the dust of history, and it is between the two of them, not those
living 150 years later. I feel the same way about all the hoopla over the
Mountain Meadow Massacre. It happened, we can't make it unhappen, and none
of us was involved. As a descendent of John D. Lee, let it go. It is what it
is. Don't we believe that we should be punished for our own sins and not
for the sins of others?
Dutch | 7:52 a.m. June 25, 2009
Everybody wants an apology for everything nowadays I will just wear a sign
around my neck saying - I am sorry for all that I have done and I am sorry for
everything I will do
anita | 7:54 a.m. June 25, 2009
Robert from St George - did you not read the entire article? It is clear at the
end that this is exactly what these family members believe, and are trying to
convey to the rest of us so we can let it die and move on in our mutual respect
of both parties.
Name | 7:57 a.m. June 25, 2009
I don't understand how either side has the nerve to speak for the dead. It
also seems that a significant amount of history has not been considered, such as
the tremendous amount of suffering Emma endured prior to Joseph's death.
And it does not seem that Brigham Young was one to ask forgiveness of any
person. They were two very headstrong personalities dealing with difficult
circumstances. Let it rest and move on.
Family Relations | 8:23 a.m. June 25, 2009
I remember when I was a kid, I used to look down on my cousins, because my
mother would tell casual vain stories this or that relative... that gossip
affected me, and set in me a whole cascade of prejudices in which I felt
justified dismissing and despising my cousins as inferior. As I raise my own
kids I try very hard not to talk badly about my kid's Uncles and Aunts now
(though sometimes it can be a challenge), because a casual word given in a
moment of bored conversation can turn a child's biases into a wall of
intolerance.
I wish I could've known my cousins better. I think we would've enjoyed many common pursuits and could've taken better care of each other, had we been more connected to our family. Long distances and petty feelings of jealousy kept me from seeing the truth for a long time.
I think the whole Brigham/Emma thing is like that.
I wish I could've known my cousins better. I think we would've enjoyed many common pursuits and could've taken better care of each other, had we been more connected to our family. Long distances and petty feelings of jealousy kept me from seeing the truth for a long time.
I think the whole Brigham/Emma thing is like that.
Maybe | 8:25 a.m. June 25, 2009
I don't understand the whole rift thing, but it seems these two families
think they might be above other families. Just have a family reunion like
everyone else. Don't dwell on stuff that happened a long time ago. It
actually sounds a bit ridiculous.
SimonSays | 8:34 a.m. June 25, 2009
I personally think that Emma has been given a bad rap for a long time. I myself
have questioned her motives, but when one honestly looks at her life and what
she went through for the Lord, for the Church and for Joseph, it is small wonder
that she just couldn't come West. No doubt that she will be with Joseph in
the next life - rightfully taking her place as an elect daughter of God.
Don't be too surprised to see Brigham in the same place!
Michaelm | 8:34 a.m. June 25, 2009
This whole thing reminds me of the demand for slave apologies and reparations
that was just passed again in the senate (an apology). None of us were there and
no one living in this country was ever a slave in it. It's just our
victim-based society looking for excuses for whatever is wrong in their lives
and someone to blame.
Why is there no mention of an apology from the Smith family toward the Young's? The Smith family organization is equally guilty of prejudices and lies why is only the BY family suppose to apologize? Regardless of the answer it is good that these families find a way to put it behind them. We need to stop looking for apologies as a people and nation. Stop being so overly sensitive and grow up. Our nation has acted like spoiled children far too long and this is another example. I hope wiser minds can forgive and move on taking responsibility for their own actions and not looking to the past to blame or cause. What we do with our lives is up to us no matter what circumstances our ancestors left to us.
Why is there no mention of an apology from the Smith family toward the Young's? The Smith family organization is equally guilty of prejudices and lies why is only the BY family suppose to apologize? Regardless of the answer it is good that these families find a way to put it behind them. We need to stop looking for apologies as a people and nation. Stop being so overly sensitive and grow up. Our nation has acted like spoiled children far too long and this is another example. I hope wiser minds can forgive and move on taking responsibility for their own actions and not looking to the past to blame or cause. What we do with our lives is up to us no matter what circumstances our ancestors left to us.
Richard Robison | 9:23 a.m. June 25, 2009
How about everybody trying to grow up and get over it already!!
words to Emma? | 9:27 a.m. June 25, 2009
Brigham Young said..."no man or WOMEN will ever enter into the celestial
kingdom of God without the consent of Joseph Smith...every man and WOMAN must
have the certificate of Joseph Smith ,Junior,as a passsport to their entrance
into the mansion where God and Christ are...."(J.O.D.,vol 7 p 289)
Anonymous | 9:41 a.m. June 25, 2009
I'm assuming both faiths believe in the Second Article of Faith. If so, why
are they apologizing for someone else?
Marie Devine | 9:44 a.m. June 25, 2009
Jesus said, "Not those that say, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom
of God but those that do the will of my heavenly Father." Forgiveness
should have been handled immediately by both sides. God is called Elohim
meaning "all in all." All that happens to us or around us is an
opportunity to choose God's ways of dealing with it or man's. Then we
get to know ourselves, see the outcome and make adjustments.
God told Joseph Smith Jr., If you are not one, you are not Mine." What does that say to all the churches that proclaim the Book of Mormon and prophethood of Joseph Smith Jr.?
The RLDS rejected about 25 Doctrines and Covenants God gave. They have joined with the UN and placed a peace statue of a woman in a short skirt with her back to the church on holy ground. She is laughing and lifting a peace dove high in the air.
The Ten Commandments cut in stone (Exodus 20) are not being honored by Christians, Jews, Muslims or others. How can we be Gods if we do not follow the least.
God told Joseph Smith Jr., If you are not one, you are not Mine." What does that say to all the churches that proclaim the Book of Mormon and prophethood of Joseph Smith Jr.?
The RLDS rejected about 25 Doctrines and Covenants God gave. They have joined with the UN and placed a peace statue of a woman in a short skirt with her back to the church on holy ground. She is laughing and lifting a peace dove high in the air.
The Ten Commandments cut in stone (Exodus 20) are not being honored by Christians, Jews, Muslims or others. How can we be Gods if we do not follow the least.
Desendant | 9:52 a.m. June 25, 2009
OH BLAH! and a big huge YAWN! Maybe Brigham young should have been kinder to
Emma Smith and not have taken advantage of her AS HE DID and blackened her name
for over a hundred 50 years.
Difficult Circumstances | 9:53 a.m. June 25, 2009
Let's not forget that Emma endured some very difficult circumstances
throughout her life. She burried several children and her husband. She had to
accept the principal of polygamy. I think this had a huge psychological impact
on her as she actually denied that Joseph practiced it despite documented
evidence that he had dozens of plural wives. There was strong evidence to
suggest that Joseph had wanted (at least at one time) his oldest son to lead the
Church after his death. Brigham had many leadership qualities necessary for that
time. But sensitivity and empathy was probably not high on his list of personal
attributes. In the end, I agree that much was enhanced by the communication
challenges of the time and a people that strongly held to a persecution complex.
It was very much a time in the Church of "you are either with us or against
us". I think this document or apology is a very nice effort. I feel bad for
those of you who think apologies or efforts at reconciliation like this are
unnecessary or even negative. Efforts at reconciliation like this show true
Christlike love, unselfishness and a desire to be empathetic and humble.
Sarah | 10:13 a.m. June 25, 2009
People need a reason for problems in their lives.
I think I will ask for an apology from the Church of England. If they hadn't chased my ancestors out of their country because they believed in something else I could be living in a castle in Denmark right now. It is England's fault that I grew up with no money, so if I can't get the title of duchess placed on me, the least they could do is offer an apology.
This story is just about as ridiculous as mine.
I think I will ask for an apology from the Church of England. If they hadn't chased my ancestors out of their country because they believed in something else I could be living in a castle in Denmark right now. It is England's fault that I grew up with no money, so if I can't get the title of duchess placed on me, the least they could do is offer an apology.
This story is just about as ridiculous as mine.
Anonymous | 10:20 a.m. June 25, 2009
This is just dumb. The descendants of one person can't apologize on behalf
of that person to another person's descendants. The only one needing the
apology is the person that is dead. It's not the descendants' fault
that Smith's progeny has these "obstacles" in their healing.
They don't have anything to heal from.
TYN | 10:27 a.m. June 25, 2009
Why is someone always trying to paint a nice picture of B Y. He was not or ever
the man he is being made out to be. History says it all- so go read. Emma Smith
was a victim.
OH PLEASE! | 10:32 a.m. June 25, 2009
These two people in this article are seeking nothing but attention for
themselves. Give me a flippin break.
Let it be. Let it be. | 10:37 a.m. June 25, 2009
This whole matter is a waste of time for all but the family members involved.
How can we possibly judge Brigham or Emma through the distorted lense of time?
There has only been one perfect person who ever walked this earth, so why are we
so shocked with the possibility that all was not perfect between Brigham and
Emma?
If they hadn't... | 10:51 a.m. June 25, 2009
then generations would have continued with resentment and false understandings.
Forgiveness and reconciliation at any point in time is always right!
Wondering | 10:55 a.m. June 25, 2009
I always wondered why there are no statues or paintings of Emma Smith in Salt
Lake City. Surely she was a big factor in helping to create her husband's
original church.
Anonymous | 10:56 a.m. June 25, 2009
huh?
What If | 11:01 a.m. June 25, 2009
What if the governor of Missouri or Illinois officially acknowledged that early
Mormons were treated unfairly and issued regret over that? I am guessing those
of you who think this "apology" is unnecessary or wrong would find
that to be very heartwarming. It's all about us, huh?
Great bio | 11:02 a.m. June 25, 2009
For a fair and balanced biography of Emma by two Mormon scholars, read:
Mormon Enigma: Emma Hale Smith
Mormon Enigma: Emma Hale Smith
JanSan | 11:13 a.m. June 25, 2009
People here seem to be forgetting something - and that is the workings of the
Spirit. It is not up to us to judge these families. Maybe the Spirit is working
to help bridge this gap. If the Spirit is indeed behind this then there is no
way that I want to stand or ridacule what he is helping to take place here.
Leave this to the families to sort out, and be happy for their progress. There
is most likely more give and take on both sides then we are hearing about.
What the? | 11:31 a.m. June 25, 2009
I think this whole story is wrong, wrong, wrong!?!
Joe | 11:37 a.m. June 25, 2009
Paraphrasing Joseph's statement to W W Phelps, I say "Come on dear
Sister since the war is past, For friends at first are friends again at
last."
DMH | 11:51 a.m. June 25, 2009
I have always thought that both Brigham Young and Emma Smith have been judged
way too harshly by all people. I have to agree with "Difficult
Circumstances" in that we do not know what each of them was going through
at the time. We were not there, but I think that it is great that the families
are trying to bridge the gap that has divided them for so long. These are the
descendants of two great men that the Lord needed to use to bring his Gospel
back to the Earth. They do need to learn how to bury the hatchet and get along
with each other. The past is the past, but sometimes future generations have to
do things to bring about a better future.
Paul B | 12:12 p.m. June 25, 2009
Descendant organizations of famous people (such as these two) frequently have
entitlement issues. Since the alleged feud between Brigham Young and Emma Smith
has no bearing on the veracity of the Gospel of Jesus Christ, it warrants
little, if any, regard.
wod | 12:18 p.m. June 25, 2009
We Believe man is punished for his own sins and not for Adam`s
transgressions.
It`s history you morons...nobody owes anything to anyone for 150 yr old "feelings".
The bile rises.
It`s history you morons...nobody owes anything to anyone for 150 yr old "feelings".
The bile rises.
Anonymous | 12:21 p.m. June 25, 2009
To Marie Devine, you seem wound a little too tightly. A peace statue? Is that
bad? The UN is bad? Further, how does what you say have to do with anything
related to the rift between these two families? Find a soapbox and preach.
Maybe we can figure it out.....
Anonymous | 12:24 p.m. June 25, 2009
To Wondering:
Just a reminder, Joseph Smith didn't CREATE the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. He RESTORED it to the earth. Yes, Emma was a huge part of that and she went through a lot. I agree she doesn't get enough of the credit that she deserves.
There have been a lot of opinions formed about Emma, as well as Brigham Young. But Nobody can really know what really happened between them. From what I can see, they were both human and they were not required to like each other.
Just a reminder, Joseph Smith didn't CREATE the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. He RESTORED it to the earth. Yes, Emma was a huge part of that and she went through a lot. I agree she doesn't get enough of the credit that she deserves.
There have been a lot of opinions formed about Emma, as well as Brigham Young. But Nobody can really know what really happened between them. From what I can see, they were both human and they were not required to like each other.
RE DMH | 12:34 p.m. June 25, 2009
Brigham Young was the one who judged Emma harshly. He pinned a bad name on her
to the rest of the church and it is just now recognized.
I think these people should not be meddling with eternal affairs. Give it a break whoever you are??
I think these people should not be meddling with eternal affairs. Give it a break whoever you are??
Shocker | 1:01 p.m. June 25, 2009
Wow. Brigham Young was perhaps unfair to a woman? Who would have thought?
Bev | 1:06 p.m. June 25, 2009
Aren't these people all related to John D. Lee, too? Maybe an apology to
the descendants on both sides of the M M Massacre people should also be
announced.
For Their Posterity's Sake | 1:11 p.m. June 25, 2009
"Robert - St. George | 5:34 a.m. June 25, 2009
Don't Mormons believe that life continues after death? I mean that is why you have temples, right? Doesn't anyone think that Brigham Young and Emma Smith have already gotten together and mended fences on the other side??? Good grief. I mean think about it."
Robert, in case no one has already said it, the reconciliation needed today is not between Brigham Young and Emma Smith, it is, primarily, for the descendants of Joseph Smith. As the article stated, somehow they built up a lot of resentment towards Brigham Young and by extension, the Church.
Don't Mormons believe that life continues after death? I mean that is why you have temples, right? Doesn't anyone think that Brigham Young and Emma Smith have already gotten together and mended fences on the other side??? Good grief. I mean think about it."
Robert, in case no one has already said it, the reconciliation needed today is not between Brigham Young and Emma Smith, it is, primarily, for the descendants of Joseph Smith. As the article stated, somehow they built up a lot of resentment towards Brigham Young and by extension, the Church.
It is sad. | 1:32 p.m. June 25, 2009
Too many comments on this article are doing the very opposite thing that these
two families are trying to accomplish. These families are trying to build a
bridge of friendship and healing. Yet, so many negative statements here (and
they are unjustifiable) rip any healing. This is cruel and baseless thing that
you do. Let these two families heal and join in a common respect for each
others ancestors. It does not matter what religious affiliation the posterity
has at this time. What matters is the sharing of history,common links, and
respect. The Young and Smith families should have a great deal of pride for
each family as they had such a tremendous impact on the religion in America,
settling the West, and immigration, etc.
re: It is sad | 1:35 p.m. June 25, 2009
Ack! Ack! Sanctimony! Can't...breathe...
A Wider Chasm Today | 1:40 p.m. June 25, 2009
Years ago there were not very many differences between the LDS religion and the
RLDS religion.
However, many things have changed in the RLDS religion that has widened the gap between them, and I don't just mean the LDS saying Brigham Young was the next prophet appointed by God and the RLDS saying it was Joseph Smith's son.
The RLDS have changed their name to the "Community of Christ" but far, far more important are doctrinal changes. Their Doctrine and Covenants has well more than 138 sections in it, which, among other things, they claim to have received revelation authorizing women to hold the Priesthood. Probably more severe (in differences) is the the Community of Christ NO LONGER BELIEVE THAT THE BOOK OF MORMON IS OF DIVINE ORIGIN.
That's a pretty big chasm to overcome these days.
Does the Lord want the Community of Christ members to see the light? You bet. Is is possible? Sure, if they desire it.
It's just tougher today than it was in decades past.
Good luck to us all.
However, many things have changed in the RLDS religion that has widened the gap between them, and I don't just mean the LDS saying Brigham Young was the next prophet appointed by God and the RLDS saying it was Joseph Smith's son.
The RLDS have changed their name to the "Community of Christ" but far, far more important are doctrinal changes. Their Doctrine and Covenants has well more than 138 sections in it, which, among other things, they claim to have received revelation authorizing women to hold the Priesthood. Probably more severe (in differences) is the the Community of Christ NO LONGER BELIEVE THAT THE BOOK OF MORMON IS OF DIVINE ORIGIN.
That's a pretty big chasm to overcome these days.
Does the Lord want the Community of Christ members to see the light? You bet. Is is possible? Sure, if they desire it.
It's just tougher today than it was in decades past.
Good luck to us all.
senseless | 1:43 p.m. June 25, 2009
Looks like the family is trying to defend their territory. Too sad that the
pinning of names on others from this family is a tradition.
My heart has always gone out towards Emma Smith and all her many sufferings.
My heart has always gone out towards Emma Smith and all her many sufferings.
mc | 1:52 p.m. June 25, 2009
As an active Mormon I didn't know so many members of the church denigrated
Emma until I moved to the Wasatch Front. Of course I found out not many members
know much about their own religion beyond what they learned in jr sunday school
either. Ask anyone what Calling and Election entails.
I Smell A Mole | 1:55 p.m. June 25, 2009
Me thinks that the 9:16 poster, the 9:27 poster and the 10:04 poster are all the
same person.
The posts are all around the same time frame, they all use quotes from Brigham Young's Journal of Discourses, they all paint Brigham Young (and therefore the LDS church) in an unfavorable light, and they all contribute nothing to a respectful, enlightening discussion concerning the article.
Please take your hatred elsewhere.
As for what motivated the article, an attempt at reconciliation between the descendants of Brigham Young and those of Joseph Smith, when has attempting to heal wounds, real or not, ever been a bad thing?
Dan Maloy
Enid, OK
The posts are all around the same time frame, they all use quotes from Brigham Young's Journal of Discourses, they all paint Brigham Young (and therefore the LDS church) in an unfavorable light, and they all contribute nothing to a respectful, enlightening discussion concerning the article.
Please take your hatred elsewhere.
As for what motivated the article, an attempt at reconciliation between the descendants of Brigham Young and those of Joseph Smith, when has attempting to heal wounds, real or not, ever been a bad thing?
Dan Maloy
Enid, OK
to regard It is sad | 1:56 p.m. June 25, 2009
So you like the mean comments and bitterness between to families'
ancestors? Santimonious? What about supporting the families? What about
finding common ground? Do you watch Jon and Kate and revel in their separation
too? Please tell me that you just had a brain freeze momentarily.
Re: 1:56 | 2:15 p.m. June 25, 2009
Get over it.
Simple Math | 2:37 p.m. June 25, 2009
It is confusing to me how anyone can claim to have received a revelation from
God pertaining to the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon and then NOT join the
LDS church.
If Joseph Smith was a prophet of God then he would have received revelation in one form or another...an angel to teach him or perhaps a personal visit from God or His Son, or maybe sacred, ancient scriptures that needed translating. Like math: A=B, or "prophets produce scripture". But if A=B, then B=A.
In other words, if The Book of Mormon IS from God, then it was delivered by a prophet of God.
And if that man who "produced" scripture is a prophet then why would you NOT join the church that he not only started but remained faithful to his entire life???????????
True, many early LDS members lost faith in Joseph's calling and claimed he was a "fallen prophet" but then again, THEY left the LDS church, Joseph Smith never did.
So if you believe Joseph Smith was truly a prophet of God then why choose to belong to any other church other than the one he organized and faithfully led?
If Joseph Smith was a prophet of God then he would have received revelation in one form or another...an angel to teach him or perhaps a personal visit from God or His Son, or maybe sacred, ancient scriptures that needed translating. Like math: A=B, or "prophets produce scripture". But if A=B, then B=A.
In other words, if The Book of Mormon IS from God, then it was delivered by a prophet of God.
And if that man who "produced" scripture is a prophet then why would you NOT join the church that he not only started but remained faithful to his entire life???????????
True, many early LDS members lost faith in Joseph's calling and claimed he was a "fallen prophet" but then again, THEY left the LDS church, Joseph Smith never did.
So if you believe Joseph Smith was truly a prophet of God then why choose to belong to any other church other than the one he organized and faithfully led?
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