Deseret News | Reader comments: Police wrong in use of Taser

Reader comments
Lee Benson: Police wrong in use of Taser

Police Cadet | 10:28 p.m. June 11, 2009

Speaking for the Law Enforcement profession, Tasering isn't the first option that Police use. Just because he was clearly unarmed, doesn't mean that he didn't pose a threat or try and run, or resist, or etc. The fact is this story is completely one sided and we don't know what Brian did. Maybe his actions warranted being tasered. Not to mention less than .5% of people have any type of severe reaction to being tasered. Don't read into this one sided story against police, especially without the facts and the rest of the story.

Louis | 10:36 p.m. June 11, 2009

Wow. I have never seen anyone with less knowledge on a subject write such a biased article. The autopsy will almost certainly show the subject was experiancing excited delirium, and while sad that he died, he would have died no matter what they did.

Police Officers can't force medicine down someones throat and you can't expect them to summon a small army on the side of the road to muscle the guy into submission.

People suffering from excited dilirium have super human strengh and while the taser might not have been the best tool at time, maybe it was.

No one will have the answers until the brain tissue is analyzed post autopsy. But if it was excited dilirium, he would have died anyway without immediate medical help that Police Officers just can't give on the side of the road.

Joseph Atwater | 12:23 a.m. June 12, 2009

In the cicumstances the medical response unit should have been notified. (CAT Team or Crisis Assessment Team. They are on alert at any emergency to assit where physical intervention is unnecessary or where limited restraint is required in such situations. Medical intervention can be given at the scene where necessary. The fact is "Known" he had a "Medical condition". The wife "notified' the police of that condition. Yet in total ignorance and in typical "police response"-"Everything is a perceived threat" (just watch all the television cop shows and read the daily newspapers. If theres a threat theres an equal response (usually force). No consideration for the medical condition,the family or the individual. We now ask questions at the morque or the funeral when responsible Medical expert teams should have been notified at the scene not at the morque.
As a former law enforcement student, the evidence is obvious, an innocent naked man (who may have run") is now dead, when discretion and proper attention was warranted. Unfortunaelay I expect to see more of this in or headlines as ignorance prompts force

Comments continue below

Andy | 4:17 a.m. June 12, 2009

Im saddened to see the comments being made on this board. No one, including Mr. Benson was present at the time police decided to use the taser. To make such bold statements that police were wrong on this situation is irresponsible. We do not have any details of what was happening. Was Brian being combative with police? Was Brian fighting with police? These two questions alone should tell everyone to hold off judgment. We do not know what happened!!! Until ALL the facts are available in this situation no one should make such hurtful comments. I am sure the officers involved in this situation are hurting just as bad as the family who lost a son, husband, and father. Please hold judgment on this situation until all facts are available!!!

Anonymous | 7:07 a.m. June 12, 2009

Too many police officers are heavy handed, and they want to use all the stuff they have been given. I don't know the facts of this situation, and I hope it isn't swept under the rug, but I do know something about cops.

R. Spencer Robinson | 7:29 a.m. June 12, 2009

I am an attorney and have been a certified legal instructor at Utah Peace Officer Standards and Training for many years. I have taught classes on the use of force in the basic academy and to in-service classes.

While the death of Mr. Cardall is tragic, the facts necessary to assess the actions of law enforcement under the applicable legal standards are not set forth in Mr. Benson's editorial. Until the facts are known, it is inappropriate to pass judgment.

to: pro police posters | 8:03 a.m. June 12, 2009

Don't get me wrong on this; the police have a tough job to do. The fact is, Tasers sometimes kill. Brian Cardall was certainly not jeopardizing anyone's life out there running naked down the road. How can there EVER be justification for using a potentially lethal method of subduing someone in order to medicate them? Tasers should NEVER be used if there is no lethal threat. So, in this case and an ever-increasing number of others like it, the police had better be able to show a lethal threat. America will be watching. This is so sad. Condolences to this wonderful family. And I'm also sad for the officers and their families involved in this senseless tragedy. CHANGE THE TRAINING!

uncannygunman | 8:07 a.m. June 12, 2009

I agree with Benson. I also have no doubt that a "thorough investigation" applying the existing "legal standards" will clear the cops. But all that tells me is that we need to revisit the legal standards.

At the very least, tasers need to be reclassified as lethal force. I know they're not supposed to be lethal, and many times are not lethal, but the fact of the matter is that sometimes they are lethal. They need to be treated as such.

cork | 8:23 a.m. June 12, 2009

Certainly not surprising that a KSL columnist would write the story this way, but regrettable since his work is usually on point. Shame on you. Mr. Robinson is right; without the facts, it is totally improper to use the space as a personal attack on our police officers. Lee - you just lost this reader for good - and I doubt I'm the only one.

To Cadet | 8:58 a.m. June 12, 2009

The ONLY justification for the Taser in this case is if he posed a lethal threat. Trying to run or resisting (as you say) is NOT a reason for a potentially lethal Tasering. Do other posters agree or disagree?

loyal reader | 8:59 a.m. June 12, 2009

Good column. I support the police. The fact remains they made a mistake. If this had happened with the officers I knew growing up, the young man would be alive.
The world is different now, and the attitudes of everyone, including the police, are far different.

EdM | 9:12 a.m. June 12, 2009

Boy, this is a tough one, isn't it? Mr. Benson has laid it all out here with both sides of the situation and has given us his opinion, which I respect greatly. At the same time, he and I and everyone else was not there at the time and don't know all the particulars as to the situation and how it came to play out. My heart goes out to the Cardall family for the loss of their son, brother, and husband. Nothing worse than the loss of a son (speaking as a father). My heart goes out to the officers in Hurricane. They will spend the rest of their lives, both personally and professionally, living with their actions and the result of those actions. One question no one has asked is "Why was he not on his medication?" Did it run out or did he choose to not take it/stay on it? We can all say this situation could have been avoided. How far back in time do we go back then to say "This (or that) should have been done..."

Brian | 9:20 a.m. June 12, 2009

Bensen accuses the police of doing exactly what he is doing... jumping to a conclusion. Fortunately for Bensen, although his conclusion is wrong (IMHO), nobody will die from it. When the police have to make a snap decision (without Bensen's grand omnicient hindsight, I might add) someone could get hurt or die. They have to protect the public and themselves. Had Brian gotten into the road and killed by a car, or had they used another method to subdue him and he had died, or, heaven forbid, he had reacted violently and killed an officer, Bensen would still condemn their method. There is no pleasing some people.

Let the police do their investigation. Let the video and other evidence come out. Sadly if it shows the police having acted the best way they could, Bensen will be loathe to appologize.

BTW, uncannygunman, tasers are NOT in the same class as firearms, and in 99.99% of the cases are not lethal. Peanut butter sandwiches kill more people than tasers...

here, here | 9:31 a.m. June 12, 2009

First off I can't belive the amount of garbage that people say on these things... excited delirium?! Are you kidding me. That's so rich the DesNews should place that on their wall of fame... u can't be serious. I have to agree with the guy you wrote to all the pro-police posters. Never have I seen a tool so ill-advisedly used. It's said because it could be a great tool. I can understand using the taser when you feel seriously threatened, but using it as a way to make people subissive is inappropriate.

Ralph | 9:35 a.m. June 12, 2009

Like most of the previous posters say, it is hard to make an argument for or against the use of the taser in this case without the facts involved. Here in lies the problem. Like the writer says, the police lawyered up in a hurry. Everything is mum until the "investigation is complete" as they say. In my opinion this is hold the info til we all get our stories straight. You can bet your sweet rear that if the victim had been hostile and presented a threat to the officer, it would have been on video and audio, splashed on every media sourse available within hours of the incident. Sorry but something setting right here.

Rick | 9:53 a.m. June 12, 2009

Another point that hasn't been made is that the wife called asking for HELP. Even if he wasn't posing a threat to anyone else, running down the road in a state of insanity might have been dangerous to HIM. What road was it? We don't know (at least I don't). Very, very, very few people die from tasers. It was probably MORE likely that he'd die from being hit by a car, and perhaps if other methods didn't work (and we assume police tried other methods), maybe tasering was the safest thing for HIS SAKE. In retrospection, we know the taser killed him. But at the time, it might have seemed like the safest thing to do.

Either way, we don't have the facts and can't pass such critical judgement on our public officers until we do.

So... | 10:02 a.m. June 12, 2009

When exactly, did Lee Bensen become an expert on this subject?

I agree | 10:09 a.m. June 12, 2009

with the 1st post by Police Cadet. The general public and media do not have the full story and should not rush to judgment. From what I understand Mr. Cardall was acting erratic on the road side and posed a risk to police, the public, and more importantly himself. It seems that the Mr. Cardall's safety was being considered. In no way should an officer go hands on with someone in that condition. It could be bad for all involved. It is my guess, and that is all it is, that the taser would have been deployed to controll the situation and prevent Mr. Cardall from possibly entering the road and being hit by a passing car. It is never documented properly, but tasers have saved several lives or serious injury if other means were used. The taser is not meant to be a punishment, just a means of control, and control is paramount for police out there if they are expected to keep everyone safe. To simply say the taser never should have been used is ignorant without knowing all facts surrounding the incident. My condolences go out to the Cardall Family.

Last I checked... | 10:35 a.m. June 12, 2009

Lee Benson does not claim to be an expert. He's giving an opinion - to which he is entitled. This debate is an important one, and we all have the right, including "So... 10:02am", to participate in this civil discussion. BTW, Mr. benson is employed to offer opinions in the DN. I hope that by the time I need a police officer to rescue me or a family member, there will be NO Taser used unless lethal threat is imminent and this is the best choice.

Vernal Roid | 11:08 a.m. June 12, 2009

It's just a sad situation, I don't think we need to place a blame.

From the hip | 11:17 a.m. June 12, 2009

This is the kind of from the hip, knee jerk reporting that does nothing but stir the pot and get people's emotions going. Without the facts this seems completely irresponsible. My simpathies go out to the Cardall family, but we have no idea how threatened the police felt or whether or not Mr Cardall's behavior was aggessive or threatening. I hope Mr Benson will show a little more rational constraint in the future.

Nothing new | 11:41 a.m. June 12, 2009

Since no one was present except the police personnel, we will never get the "full" story. Just a blurb on B 12 next month indicating the police acted responsiblilty and the officer was reinstated.

why | 11:53 a.m. June 12, 2009

utah has a high percetange rate of shootings invlving police and situations involving tasers. WHY? this does not happen back east (per capita) with such frequentcey this state... someone please enlighten me... thanks

Take a Deep Breath | 12:03 p.m. June 12, 2009

Lost of life is always a sad occurance. Law enforcement is a complex profession; mainly dealing with everything that society doesn't want to or is unable to handle themselves.
Force is used not only to subdue crimial actor, but also to protect the officer,others and the very person of interest.
Had Washington P.D. sat back to monitor and observe Mr Cardall's behavior and he ran into traffic or into some other dangerous or harmful situtation which dead or injury happened, what would Mr Benson then be condemning. Let all the facts come out before the rocks start flying.

Use Tasers with prudence. | 12:30 p.m. June 12, 2009

Its time we get past the fiction that tasers are perfectly harmless.

They do kill some people some times.

I work with a lady at Hill AFB who got out of the Air Force on a medical discharge. She was near where a mortar impacted. When it hit she fell down but immediately got up. She wasn't harmed or so she thought.

Hours later she fell down unconscious. Her heart had been damaged in this blast. The noise, the air pressure somehow damaged her heart. She now has a pace maker and a full medical discharge from the military.

Sometimes tramatic events can affect people in un-expected ways. Tasers shouldn't be used willy nilly, only when necessary.

Mike K. | 12:30 p.m. June 12, 2009

The problem here is that Tasering has become the default control method for the police. IT IS NOT a substitute for deadly force, i.e. side arms, shotguns or rifles. It is supposed to be used as an alternative to Mace, Baton, Hand to Hand engagement or verbal engagement. However, too many police officers consider it their first option in a non- life threatening senario when it should be their last. Pepper spray or CS gas(mace) causes much fewer fatalities that Tasering, so does hand to hand engagement and using a baton to subdue a suspect.

The posts from LEO's and their supporters bear out that this has become their first option when dealing with uncooperative subjects. Nevermind the increased chance of a lethal encounter.

The officer will be found to have followed proceedure and be fine. LEOs will continue to claim that its all good, Tasering is pretty safe and their best option. No one in a position that matters will look at the policy or how often people die when they didn't need to. That is the ultimate tragedy.

DISGUSTED | 12:53 p.m. June 12, 2009

I am disgusted with all the posters who say we should wait for the results of some sort of investigation. The fact is, the police killed a good man. They have an obligation to speak out, immediately, with an explanation. The fact they still have not made such a statement speaks for itself -- they know they were in the wrong. Duane Cardall said his son was walking, not running, according to the Tribune. The indication was that this was beside the road, not in it. A witness mentioned in the same article saw him standing quietly just before he was tasered. The use of deadly force was unjustified and the police should admit it. Lee Benson is right.

Anonymous | 12:58 p.m. June 12, 2009

This editorial and some of the comments remind me of the man in Layton(?) who was involved in a 9 hour standoff with an ex firefighter who was shot and killed by police.

People were saying the police just got bored and took him out so they could go home, or some stupid idiocy like that.

YOU WERE NOT THERE! YOU HAVE NO IDEA, AND UNTIL YOU DO, QUIT DEMONIZING THESE POLICE OFFICERS!

re: Robinson post @ 7:29 | 1:16 p.m. June 12, 2009

you state "Until the facts are known, it is inappropriate to pass judgment." I'm certain that as an attorney you feel that way. However, as an attorney you should also be aware that "facts" can vary, depending on the observer. I'll bet ya Mrs. Cardall has a very different point of view of the "facts" from the Hurricane PD. Although most people on this message board simply rant, there is much to be said for Mr. Benson's point of view, given the "facts" as we have them so far.

@ 12:58 pm | 1:21 p.m. June 12, 2009

I was waiting for the wall of noise/code of silence to start. Too many well laid out opinions here with too much valid information. So now the police and their spouses/supporters are going on an emotional offensive to try to quiet the ones saying this is a bad thing and especially after more and more informationcoming forth from witnesses is contradicting what the police and their supporters are posting here.

Enough already... | 1:59 p.m. June 12, 2009

Pose 1 simple question - Is Mr. Cardall [his wife, his children, the entire family and friends] better off or worse as a result of the police response?
-------

If better, then good job. kudo, etc.
If worse, what happened, and what could have been done different??

WCB | 2:26 p.m. June 12, 2009

Why did the police not come with paramedics? It was a 911 call for medical assistance. Benson is right, it was dead wrong, and to the guy who said he would have died anyway, is it your opinion that since he would have died anyway, why not just taser him?

Dissappointed | 3:30 p.m. June 12, 2009

I am very disappointed how Mr. Benson refers to Mr.Cardall's wife calling - "my crazy husband" it is comments like these that make it a challenge for someone with mental illness to feel like they can come forth with their disability. I have a son with bipolar and we never refer to him as "crazy" and I would dare believe that Mrs.Cardall feels the same. We love our son and see him with many great attributes. Please be sensitive to those with mental illness- life is difficult enough!

to uneducated | 4:37 p.m. June 12, 2009

everyone saying that tasers should be reclassified as lethal, are very uneducated, "because they sometimes kill" does not make them lethal, hands are sometimes lethal, mace is sometimes lethal, clubs are sometimes lethal. and in fact injury wise many, many less injuries are caused by a taser than if someone is detained using "open hand techniques. educate yourself! don't just buy into what the media reports. very irresponsible article mr benson. my sincere condolences to the family.

to WCB | 4:47 p.m. June 12, 2009

they did. the man was treated seconds after being tasered. good job getting all the facts. you must be a genius!

Analysis | 5:35 p.m. June 12, 2009

Did the outcome turn out right? - No.

So, obviously "something" IS wrong, and "something" needs to change to improve similar future outcomes.

Defending the status quo is called justifying and will never make things better in the future.

Questions? | 6:05 p.m. June 12, 2009

We all have alot of questions that will never be answered by the police. They will justify this in someway. What ever happened to just tackling an unarmed guy? Let's quit feeling sorry for the officer that tazed this young man and feel sorry for the young mans family. They will never get the answers they deserve. Makes me a little hesitant to call 911 if I need a little assistance.

Jennifer | 2:25 a.m. June 13, 2009

Tasers are meant to be an alternative to using deadly force. Police officers carry them so that in situations where they need to subdue a suspect they can use a taser, in place of a gun, so really the question that needs to be asked is this: Would the officers in this case have used their guns and shot this young man if they had not had tasers? if the answer is no then they should not have tased him. Tasers are not meant to be the answer to every problem and I am tired of hearing about young men who are not even committing a crime and 72 year old women who were stopped for speeding having this very barbaric and lethal form of punishment used on them. I don't know about the rest of you but I am terrified of being pulled over or calling 911 now, I don't want to call for help for a loved one just to have them murdered by the officers who are supposed to be there to help. Cops need to learn, if you wouldn't reach for your gun, you shouldn't reach for your taser.

Joe Lee | 10:30 a.m. June 13, 2009

TASER is not a lethal weapon. It's in the realm of Pepper Spray. Unfortunately, some people die with just about any application of force. If you look in to the study of Police Weapons, you'll see that TASER is less lethal than Pepper Spray,Baton, and even Punching, Kicking, and Grappling. When these unfortunate events happen, we tend to forget about all those other lives that were saved because TASER was applied instead of more dangerous force options. There is no perfect weapon or perfect technique.

SLC gal | 12:07 p.m. June 15, 2009

If the cop felt deadly force was neccasary, he would have drawn his gun, not his Taser. Look at the situation from the cops prespective. Tasers are meant to subdue, not kill, and cops aren't given a chance to second guess if they're wrong.

To Jennifer | 12:40 p.m. June 15, 2009

I wonder how terrified you really are. The next time you're burglarized or attacked -- who ya gonna call?

I'm betting it'll be 911. I'm sure it won't be the know-nothing haters posting above.

There's not the slightest doubt Mr. Cardall needed to be subdued, for his own safety and that of motorists. Cops have now been provided an effective and humane tool to do it with. Thankfully the responding cop used it in this case!

Tasers replace -- not the gun -- but rather, standing back and doing NOTHING.

We now have the luxury of endless hand wringing, bedwetting, and second guessing. The responding cop didn't. But the most likely pre-Taser results -- the traffic death of Mr. Cardall, and perhaps innocent motorists, or his family, or the cop, were avoided.

That's called success.

Only failure could have resulted from all the lame, laissez-faire suggestions above.

John Pack Lambert | 10:17 a.m. June 18, 2009

To the 11:53 commentator,
Last year Detroit police killed 10 people. Detroit has less than half the population of Utah. Did even 20 peope get killed by Utah police last year? If the answer is no, than Detroit has a larger rate of police killing civilians than Utah.
There was a taser related death of a Detroit man in one of the suburbs in the last few months. These things happen outside of Utah.
Incidentally, the Detroit Police Department is under federal consent agreements designed to lessen its use of force and unjustified detaining of witnesses. So supposedly the 10 deaths is AFTER reforms to reduce police violence.

David Moyer | 12:06 p.m. June 18, 2009

This was barbaric. The 'Mentally ill' already live 25 years less than healthy people, thanks, in part to policies that allow the unfettered use of tasers when it is not indicated. They tased him when properly applied restraint techniques could have brought the situation under control. So the cop yelled 20 times for the person to get on the ground. So what! The cop could have yelled at him to get on the ground 100 times. When a person is psychotic, they are incapable of following the simplest of instructions, whether at the point of a gun or a taser.

Thank you Lee Benson | 5:50 p.m. June 18, 2009

You speak what all of us feel from this. The police need to seriously regroup and earn back the public trust. Them hiring a lawyer in a New Jersey minute didn't help heal that wound. A public apology, a new policy, new efforts, a firing or two, lots of retraining, and a full investigation by competent and serious autority figures, and that only starts to get to the point where we need to be. Anna Cardall is a widow at a very young age, having lost a very good husband. The world has lost a very good man. I'm just sick over this.

30YearsinLA | 4:32 p.m. June 19, 2009

I agree with many of the comments re: insuffcicient data to judge the situation. However, some clarity about the taser. I am retired after 30 years as a cop in the LA area, 20 as a supervisor. I have tased people. When we do get the facts: Unless he was a threat to the cops, surround him and get him help. That is the job. Cops have more time than you think. If they were just scared, they are in the wrong job. Somebody's husband and son is dead. Regrettably, the taser has become a shortcut to actually talking to people under the guise of "less than lethal" force option. While it is less than lethal, it does not relive the cops of other more reasonable means of resolving the situation. The taser is a tool but not the answere to all conflcit scenarios. Police work is tough but it is reasonable. Lets wait to get the facts.

Also BiPlar | 1:07 p.m. June 24, 2009

Sorry, I didn't know about not including links.

I hope my prior post is kept, with the link.

Information about programs such as CIT is necessary to put out to the public.

Thanks!

Wow Lee | 11:42 a.m. Aug. 25, 2009

I've read you for years.
I can't belief the loss of respect I feel for you right now. I guess the cops should have just pummeled the man with a club until they could take him into custody.

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