Deseret News | Reader comments: Utah justices hear Navajo adoption case

Reader comments
Court hears Navajo adoption case

I hope they win. | 3:01 p.m. June 1, 2009

Mr. Ramos said it best, he can teach hispanic culture. He's also by ancestory an Indian. So what's the problem. I guess the Navajo's want these kids to grow up and live in poverty with lousy education and the potential of alcohol, drug abuse, and unwed motherhood that is prevelent on the reservation. What a life for these kids to look forward to if the tribe wins. Yep, a really good lifestyle to protect "culture".

If the Supreme Court has any guts, they will tell the Navajo's to pound sand.

A PROUD NATIVE | 3:54 p.m. June 1, 2009

How easy it is for the uninformed to be judgmental with their ignorance flowing out of every pore. If one had any idea of native culture, monetary wealth is not a measure of success. For we are rich by our relatives and our culture. Praises to the Ramos family for their efforts to help the children learn the way and the history of their ancestors. I hope that the courts will rule that the children do stay with them where they know love, security and permanency. It saddens me to think that the only thing non-natives see when they visit the reservation is negative. If once they take the time to learn the sacredness of our ways, they would understand our bounty and our spiritual connection to life and the spirits. If the Court has any guts, they will tell the Navaho nation to offer aide to the Ramos family to insure the children grow up knowing the many blessings of the way and encourage dialog between the families to enrich the lives of these precious children. Aho

Utah Mom | 4:27 p.m. June 1, 2009

It seems the Ramos' have done a super job so far. They are doing everything they can to ensure a stable home. They are fighting for the kids they are attached to. The kids only know them as their parents now. Listen supreme court, to undo this now would be wrong!! Listen to the children who love their parents, the only parents they have been loved by. For the NN, who is to benefit from this? Certaintly not the relatives. They were not there for them. Remember? they are the ones who couldn't provide for them? There is no sacredness and spirituality in separating a family! Aho

Comments continue below

susan kounalis | 5:14 p.m. June 1, 2009

i was adopted into a white family when i was 5 1/2 weeks old. i'm not white but hispanic. i think it is so wrong to put a non white child into and put him in another culture. yes i know there are no foster homes for the native american children. and maybe the ramos' are a good family, but those kids are not going to learn their heiritage and their language. don't get me wrong i loved my family. but i never learned my culture and i am unable to teach my kids about my biological heiritage. i don't believe in interracial adoptions or foster care.

keeper | 5:30 p.m. June 1, 2009

I have to agree with PROUD NATIVE. The Courts shall have the Navajo Nation provide aide to the RAMOS. They should know both sides. But to a point as not to confuse these children at an early age. They are happy children where they are. Life on the Reservation is not always good. We do not learn how to become self sufficient in learning how to pay taxes, purchasing a new home and mortaging. In this modern world when these children are 18 years they have the right to go and learn about the Indian Way. These parents love them so leave well enough alone.

NM Mom | 10:55 p.m. June 1, 2009

I'm outraged and confused by the Navajo Nation, a culture which I love, who is taking actions that are destructive and counter-intuitive. It does not seem in the best interest of the children to take them away from a loving, safe family that is clearly trying to preserve the children's heritage. It seems awfully egotistical of the Navajo Nation to claim that the children's Indian half is more important than their Hispanic half. Please, please, leave the family alone.

Anonymous | 10:08 a.m. June 2, 2009

Give the children back to Navajo Nation. What a diaster this has caused the State of Utah. No wonder they replaced the Utah ICWA Worker who worked for the State. The present one is not qualified either. What a mess!! Utah did not follow procedures and they need to accept that. Notification by telephone is not sufficient. Why didn't the ICWA Worker go to Navajo Nation personally and inform them, not the white way of telephoning and leaving a message!! ICWA, a federal law needs to be follow. This is not the first time Utah has been in hot water over this issue. When are they going to learn??

Not about culture!! | 10:15 a.m. June 2, 2009

Way off base......Unfortunately, again everyone is thinks this is about the "best interest of the children." No, the Act was designed to protect the Tribes's interest in their tribal members. The distinction is not race related, but a political distinction. Utah Supreme Court, please turn over the tribal members to tribe.

Susan Kristy | 2:15 p.m. June 2, 2009

These tribal citizens must be returned to the tribe. For a state to trump federal law is a dangerous precedent.
And, sorry, but you don't get to hire a "tutor" and create a culture that isn't yours to pass on. LAME! Non-Indian people will never get it. Never.
Utah should face federal sanctions for the terrible handling it has done with cases of late. What a horrifying shame, to threaten these children with colonization, confusion, and alientation their whole lives.
Utah should do the right thing, and transition these children back to the Navajo Nation.

alfred | 3:01 p.m. June 2, 2009

(IF)rez. kidz have census number-they're rez-this is a political interest.Boarding school gets you institutionalizes-indoctrinating grants no favor or priviege- what happens if these kids want to return,when they are adults?

sinew-montana | 3:34 p.m. June 2, 2009

The Law is the Law--I worked in our ICWA department and it is the states duty to notify the tribes. That is why the LAW was made -- Federally recognized tribes need to have their day in court. Shame on the social worker who is acting like GOD and going behind the Tribe's RIGHT! not priviledge!!!

pro-ICWA | 5:31 p.m. June 2, 2009

I get so tired hearing about how people think ICWA is stupid and unfair. Want to know why congress enacted ICWA? Because native children were being removed from their families at a rate 6 times higher than any other group. That is what is unfair and stupid. Adoption agencies KNOW about ICWA. If you want to blame someone for being unfair and stupid, blame the adoption agencies, not the tribes or tribal governments. Blame the state for not telling the Tribe. All of this heartache could be avoided. It is unfortunate that people are ignorant as to this matter and are all too quick to blame tribes.

History | 5:46 p.m. June 2, 2009

ICWA is about keeping these children as a number in a tribe. Native children are being removed because their biological units are not caring for them. The social workers here on the reservation will tell you why. If the tribe was smart they would back down. Let these caring folks take care of and pay for the education of these children. See to it these children receive a good education in their culture as well and see if the adults they become wish to go back to serve the tribe that wanted to disrupt their lives when they needed nurturing the most, now.

On the cultural aspect... | 6:28 p.m. June 2, 2009

The commenters on here criticizing the ICWA are drowning in their own ignorance. Nothing new, just classic anti-Indian blather. Non-Natives want Indian children raised by outsiders, yet at the same time they display a complete lack of understanding re: our cultures/peoples/familial ties. A revised attempt at "killing the Indian, saving the man" - why else would they not notify the tribe or at least take the proper steps in ensuring everything is done according to law? As far as the 'Hispanic' argument goes, there is not even a Hispanic race, let alone one Hispanic culture - unless these unfit parents are referring to a Spanish one; in which case, Anthony and Ella *will* indeed be raised as whites. Doing things like hiring tutors or taking them to groups run by non-Navajos are two surefire signs these parents are ill-informed and incapable of exposing them to anything outside of THEIR (a white) idea of Navajo "culture" - that'd be a plastic pow wow one.
It's quite telling that all those who are anti-ICWA argue with the adoptive "parents'" best interests in mind...never the children's. Telling *and* selfish.

Suzi R. | 6:56 p.m. June 2, 2009

A few points to consider:

ICWA was not violated, it was followed throughout all of the court hearings, all 3 1/2 years worth of court hearings. The Navajo Nation was notified. They were notified in writing, through emails, through phone calls, and still failed to respond until the final 6 mo. of hearings. The Navajo Nation representatives CHOSE to participate telephonically rather than come from Moab and Arizona and participate in person. No tutor was hired, she was assigned through Title IV, and Lil' Feathers is a Native American dance group run by Native Americans. Perhaps some of you need to learn a little more about your own culture and the amazing opportunities available to youth right here in Salt Lake! These children also learn language through classes offered at the Indian Walk-In Center, also taught by Navajos. It is true that people are ignorant, especially when they accept all that they read in the media or see on tv as absolute fact. These children are of mixed race, just like the family raising them. Luckily these children will grow up respecting other cultures and not putting them down.

Ben | 8:03 a.m. June 3, 2009

OK, let's assume these kids are returned to the NN: Who is going to take care of them? Relatives can't take care of them? Fat, lazy, globe trotting, alcholic, wife-beating council delegates? Non-existent, inefficient non-caring children services? Church based sexual predators? As a full blooded Navajo from the reservation, I hate to say but they at least have a chance at a good life with the Ramos. Rots of Ruck!

Ben | 8:11 a.m. June 3, 2009

Return the children to the Navajo Nation to learn the language and culture? ARE YOU KIDDING! LOL. There is no one on the reservation teaching either to Navajo kids. Navajo children are being taught english only by their parents and schools, and the only culture being taught (if any) is pow-wow dancing; neither of which has anything to do with Navajo culture. If you find a youngen under 25 that speaks and understand Navajo language and culture, I'll give you a thousand dollars.

The law's the law | 10:34 a.m. June 3, 2009

You wouldn't expect to go to China to adopt a child without following China's laws, would you? How about Malawi? Just ask Madonna about that one. The Navajo Nation has its own sovereignty, and is entitled to exercise it. In addition to this, Federal law permits Indian tribes to have a say in the adoption of its members or descendent's of its members. How about we figure out a way to make sure people--families who want to adopt and social workers, are aware of and educated on this facet of law so that we can avoid heartache like this later.

navajoFosterChild | 6:38 p.m. June 8, 2009

I find it ridiculous to read statements made by non-natives who continue to think that they know what is best for us. Assimilation has not died, it is alive and well. I was placed in a Mormon Foster Family at the age of 8 years old, and that family fostered ideologies far more detrimental: to name a few, hatred, racism, discrimination, prejudice, and the list goes on. White people made me stay saying it was the best thing for me, but now I return the hatred they rendered. I do not see anything positive for the child if their thinking is that they know what is best for the child. If they are really concerned for the child's welfare they would return the child to his/her family and extend their assistance by offering the child's family the opportunities in addition to the child's cultural heritage that would meet the needs of both families. Ripping the child out of a family and assimilating the child is not the way to go. History is fraught with abductions, please break the cycle.

US Citizen | 1:33 p.m. Aug. 8, 2009

Interesting that someone compared this with adopting a child from China. What about a chinese child born in the US to American citizens? In no way would China's government be involved in that. But that is what happens with ICWA. Even children who are only fractionally Native American, not born on reservations, not born in a tribal family, who are full US citizens can't be voluntarily placed for adoption by their parent, whether white or part Native American or Hispanic or whatever, to a couple of their choosing. Somehow a tribal government who they otherwise would never have had any contact with decides they have final say in the placement. There are serious flaws in this law that are unconstitutional.

T | 10:46 p.m. Aug. 22, 2009

I see no problem that the children are placed in a Spanish environment since they are half Spanish. They should be taught both the Navajo and Spanish culture. There are plenty ways to learn the language. Learn Spanish from the parents and have the Navajo language recorded for them so both children and their parents can learn together which will create family time. Then take it to the next level and learn French,etc. The children is what is important.I am Navajo by blood. I am adopted by a Choctaw family. I was adopted within my own race and thank God for that. I know my blood family now and just got back from meeting them in New Mexico. I am really thankful for both my families. My kids are also half Indian and White. I can tell you all the name calling regarding drunk, lazy, fat, etc. well all races of all color have a handful of them. Culture is very important in the American Indian and Spanish way of life.

T | 10:59 p.m. Aug. 22, 2009

I read more comments regarding this situation and no one can predict the out come of these kids' future. They could grow up in the best loving home but they could also take the wrong path on their own. Any child is a gamble. People that can't take care of their own kids for selfish reasons should consider on being FIXED because these young souls deserve a beautiful life.

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