Deseret News | Reader comments: Title IX is at it again with sand volleyball

Reader comments
Title IX is at it again with sand volleyball

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AMEN | 3:10 a.m. May 6, 2009

Thank you Doug!

Great article | 7:00 a.m. May 6, 2009

I wanted to applaude the author before the droves of naysayers come in.

It is amazing to me that in society the concept of fair is extraordinarly hard to implement.

What also makes me infuriated is that the number of scholarships being offered to women, multitudes of those are going to foreign players rather than home grown students who could use an education just as much as a female Russian tennis player (BTW, check out the roster of most of the D-I programs in tennis, lots of foreign players).

Invisible Hand | 7:05 a.m. May 6, 2009

You're right on with the overall analysis, but there's another factor you're forgetting about beach volleyball. The attire typically worn by the women in that sport can also draw a crowd. Any sport that draws a crowd, regardless of gender, can stand on its own economically.

Comments continue below

I hate title 9 | 7:44 a.m. May 6, 2009

The worst part of title 9 is the way it destroys men's sports teams. The U lost their men's x-country and track teams. BYU lost their top-ranked wrestling team.
Why can't they just give scholarships proportionally based on applications/interest in sports. If more women try out at a school, give more scholarships to women. Can all-girls/all-boys schools legally even field a sports team?

Anonymous | 8:02 a.m. May 6, 2009

Whenever the government gets involved in something, anything, it gets goofy. This was never about equality anyway, just like affirmative action is not about equality.

Can we paleeze get the federal government out of education?? And all this stupidity would go away.

Anonymous | 8:24 a.m. May 6, 2009

title 9 good intent, horrible application. It's ok to back up the truck and say, "whoops, we might have been wrong on this." Title 9 is now code for DISCRIMINATION. The very thing it arrogantly was trying to prevent.

Anonymous | 9:07 a.m. May 6, 2009

Will we be seeing "sand volleyball" teams at BYU or UVU?

JB | 9:15 a.m. May 6, 2009

It's sad that the goverment has to take the lead in so many of these issues because they do a poor job implementing "solutions". Yet if the government doesn't get involved one feels that black slaves might still be picken' cotton and girls would still be stuck with cheer & pep club.
The solution may be for people at the grassroots level to instigate change when needed. But don't hold your breath.

Title 9 | 9:21 a.m. May 6, 2009

I think is a joke, how many people pay to watch women play sports. I am not sexest by any means, I am just saying the quality is just not there as much, example the WNBA, the only reason there still around is because the NBA keeps putting money into it, eventually it will fail.

Idaho | 9:35 a.m. May 6, 2009

The real problem with Title IX is simple: football. It is a giant, money-eating monster for which there is simply no female equivalent. I know folks will jump in and say there is far more interest in football than other sports, but the bottom line is that 60 percent of Division I football programs lose money -- that is, they require institutional and/or student fees support. With 85 players on scholarship, plus the "arms race" in facilities (every D-1 program that wants to contend has to have a state of the art weight room, lockerooms and indoor practice facility), football chews up incredible amounts of resources. Not to mention the huge, 7-figure salaries coaches at major institutions are drawing in football and basketball. Bottom line is that football and basketball at the D-1 level now require such huge commitments from institutions, it's nearly impossible for any of the "minor sports" -- men's or women's -- to survive at a lot of the NCAA institutions. Sure, implementation of Title IX has gotten goofy, but the real problem is putting football back into perspective.

Anonymous | 9:47 a.m. May 6, 2009

Title 9 is a joke

High School Students who play Soccer, Volleyball, Hockey, Lacrosse or Rugby cannot get a lettermans jacket. They have to be considered a club sport. What is the reasoning for that. It is not like the schools are not giving girls soccer, volleyball and even lacrosse teams The school would give them rugby football and hockey teams if girls were interested in them.

Sas

STEVE-O | 9:49 a.m. May 6, 2009

I think title 9 is a complete joke! Like it was stated, it's just another case of legalized discrimination. I could never get a scholarship because I'm a 20+ white male! The further this thing goes the more ridiculous it's become. Title 9 needs some major tweaking!

Re: Title 9 | 10:08 a.m. May 6, 2009

What are you talking about. Have you seen what they wear in beach volley ball. :)

Titel IX Joke | 10:13 a.m. May 6, 2009

My buddy was a phenomenal wrestler that got axed when his college had to drop wrestling. The next year they added Womens golf. His girlfriend and eventually wife was one of the women golfers. He was a little resentful at first because he saw how little his wife worked at golf compared to how much he sacrificed to wrestle. In the end he thought it was worth it since he wouldnt have met his wife had she not taken his scholarship, so to speak. Still, Title IX is a travesty, but thats what you get with government meddling.

Hopscotch? Really? | 10:23 a.m. May 6, 2009

I'm as irritated about the modern application of title IX as the next guy, but comparing sand volleyball (an olympic sport) to hopscotch is absurd. This article is riddled with internal inconsistencies. If sand volleyball is not a legitimate sport then why complain about the NCAA not sponsoring the same sport for men? If it's not a legitimate sport and you don't like title IX then isn't this a great way for the NCAA to allow universities to economically add another womens team and, therefore, another mens team? I agree that they should also sponsor mens sand volleyball teams, but asserting that states without a beach are at some kind of competitive disadvantage is silly. Have you been to just about any large park in Utah and seen the sand volleyball courts which are very busy all the time? Come on.

word | 10:34 a.m. May 6, 2009

Title 9 is ridiculous. Females from other countries and people that never even played the sport they are being recruited for get scholarships while they cut Wrestling programs throughout the country.

3 girls at the school I attend are on full girls rowing scholarships and never even heard of the sport before being recruited for it at a HS Track event.

Its pathetic.

Make Dance a Sport | 10:35 a.m. May 6, 2009

Refer to it as an athletic event, since they are often the best athletes anywhere, and count all of those women participating against the overall calculation.

Title 9 has been terrible. I went to 1 year of HS in Utah, then moved to CA to finish. I played boys volleyball, which was fairly well supported, and went on to play in college. Now, my boys won't even have that chance here in Utah - despite the fact the BYU has one of the top men's programs in the country. Very sad indeed.

re: Invisible Hand | 10:35 a.m. May 6, 2009

You're crazy. Sand volleyball- even with their "attire" will never even come close to covering its own costs.

great article | 10:40 a.m. May 6, 2009

The idea behind title 9 is good, and at the time was needed. However the interpretation and implementation has gone way too far.

I am a female college athlete... and I definitely appreciate my scholarship, but I feel bad for boys who can't play the same sport as me because all of the scholarships are "used up" on the football team.

tough to match | 10:53 a.m. May 6, 2009

when a sport like football has so many 'participants' (kids that are on the team but never play) it skews the numbers.

Just in | 10:56 a.m. May 6, 2009

no sand volleyball team at BYU the uniforms are against school dress codes. If students participate in sand volleyball they will be expelled.

Stop | 11:33 a.m. May 6, 2009

This is more about the U.S. Volley Ball Association than title 9... They have been pushing their agenda for years. Did you see how much coverage was given to the vollyeball players in the Olympics compared to all other sports, it was rediculous. The Olympics has nothing to do with title 9.. This is about the UVA pushing their sport on colleges wheather they like it or not, just like the Olympic coverage...don't blame title 9 for this mess...

re: Hopscotch? Really? | 11:48 a.m. May 6, 2009

I think you got a little sidetracked by Doug's dig at sand volleyball. He's not upset it's being offered as a sport. He's upset it's being offered as a sport at the expense of men's sports under the guise of promoting equal opportunity.
If Title IX actually added both mens and womens programs like it was originally intended to do, I doubt anyone would complain. However, instead of adding women's clubs while maintaining men's clubs, most universities look at the bottom line and slash men's sports and add a few women's sports to give the appearance of equality. It's been happening at numerous universities for decades.

Ben | 11:55 a.m. May 6, 2009

I hate it when people get on here and spout off facts that are not true. One person said "60% of college football teams lose money every year". Please give me your references and research on this.

The truth is that the football teams make so much in profits every year (from the BCS, TV contracts, bowl games, etc...) that they are required to support these smaller women sports so that they can stay afloat. If it wasn't for football and mens basketball there wouldn't be any of these scholarships available for these women. Have you seen how many people go watch women collegiate sports. It's not very many. There is no way that they are even close to breaking even.

dale | 12:24 p.m. May 6, 2009

The people who inacted the Title One program is so off base. If they had taken football and set it to one side and said, we are going to grandfather football in as a special sport and then we are going to have equal sports for all other sports offered would have been the bests way to handle is problem. The women should understand that if it wasn't for mens football and mens basketball there would not be any money to finance their sports. Also, the mens programs would not have to suffer, because of title one as it is at the moment.

Football money | 12:37 p.m. May 6, 2009

What Ben also forgot to mention with his truths about football was that boosters for the athletics department do not donate money so that the women's underwater basketweaving team can do better. When the football is successful like the Utes were this past season, donations to the scholarship funds from alumni goes up WAY UP. People fail to realize that the success of an athletic department is very dependent on the success of its most visible programs i.e. football and men's basketball. I guarantee that the Utes received more money this season because of the success, even with the bad economy, than they did when both teams were down. If you don't believe me, call the universities themselves. Title IX is not working the way it was supposed to. Take the 85 football scholarships out of the equation, and then make the scholarship allotment even and the problem would be closer to being fair and equatable.

MIke | 12:38 p.m. May 6, 2009

I read an article a couple of years ago on this subject. It said that the U women's gymnastics team, which has had the highest attendance for years, doesn't come close to covering it's own costs. It's a fact that football and men's basketball carry all other sports.

Johnny Moser | 12:52 p.m. May 6, 2009

Doug, you missed the point for this one, this might actually get a good turnout from the fan standpoint, who doesn't like to see cute young girls jumping around in bikinis. Pretty good fan base if you asked me. Doubt that BYU would allow it as the typical uniform, based on what I observed in the Olympics, would allow for too many accidental "exposures".

Minerman | 12:55 p.m. May 6, 2009

Except the Utes gymnasts. Those girls draw bigger crowds than the basketball team. Love my Red Rocks! lol.

A Modest Proposal | 1:13 p.m. May 6, 2009

A few years ago, a panel studying Title IX issues suggested that proportionality analysis be based only on students aged 18-24 (I believe that was the range). This is the "traditional" college student age, and the age range of almost all student athletes.

The panel reasoned that there is a large percentage of older female students. (There are probably several reasons why, but that's for another day). It is only fair that the impact of Title IX be based on the population most likely to be impacted.

Perhaps this is a way to address some of the complaints about Title IX, while preserving the good things that have come from it.

Title IX Irony and a Solution | 1:37 p.m. May 6, 2009

What is even more ironic is that women have won the "right" to play on high school and even college football teams and on high school wrestling teams but can a high school boy play volleyball? No way. So not only has it greatly impacted negatively "men's" minor or Olympic sports such as gymnastics and wrestling" women get to participate in the so-called men's or boy's offerings where men or boys can't.

My solution would be this. I am in favor of Title IX because women were discriminated against for a long time. They should have access to equal facilities, funding and opportunities. I would like to see for every male sport provided that a female sport existed and both were equally funded to their needs. This is fair and right and did not exist until 1973. However, the pendulum has swung too far.

And one last thing, this is hugely effecting our boys and the opportunities they might have in both high school and college, for education and the like. So before women go all nuts and say this is what you men deserve, mothers should do everything to FIGHT FOR THEIR SONS!

Get on board | 1:52 p.m. May 6, 2009

Dear Stop,
Please STOP acting like you have any idea what is being discussed here! There's no such organization as the "UVA" so how could they possibly be pushing their agenda through the Olympics or anywhere else?

Uniforms will consist of tank tops and spandex shorts, so you should all tuck away those bikini fantasies. Still, it may not pass the BYU dress code.

Football is a money sucking octopus that doesn't generate a lot of money for many, if not most, DI schools. Even good schools with good teams. The Utes received only a fraction of the BCS money they won!

Fair is the buzzword of this thread and I don't see how setting aside football scholarships and making the rest of the scholarships even between men and women could possibly be seen as fair.

No one is disputing that women's sports don't make any money--that's why Title IX had to be implemented in the first place! The addition of another non-revenue women's sport shouldn't be surprising to anyone who pays attention to college sports "politics."

jday | 2:01 p.m. May 6, 2009

in 2006, when schools reported to the Department of Education about their spending on their football programs, all but 11 teams in post-season bowls made a profit, and the average was 48% of the gross revenue of the team was profit. Looks like college football generally makes money for the school, not the other way around.

Anonymous | 2:08 p.m. May 6, 2009

how many football scholarships are there for women compared to for men?

and, could the addition of sand volleyball at universities possibly have anything to do with the fact that it is an OLYMPIC sport?

Fox | 2:09 p.m. May 6, 2009

This whole article - and half the comments - reads like sour grapes.

Bitter sour grapes.

funding? | 2:34 p.m. May 6, 2009

Is title IX attached to funding? If schools, at least private schools, don't accept federal funding, then will title IX not apply to them? If so, then BYU and other private schools should just refuse federal funds.

Re: Get on board | 2:36 p.m. May 6, 2009

What are you talking about, football generates huge revenue, plus donations from alumni. Vollyeball does nothing. Where are you getting your facts, Oh and by the way there is a governing board for volley ball as there is for every sport. We were held hostage as we all had to watch 2 guys play volley ball for the entire Olympics. Beach volley ball is the biggest joke of a sport I have ever seen. The NCAA will have 4 teams in beach volleyball..Get rid of it..Stop was right!!!

Equality??? | 2:40 p.m. May 6, 2009

RE: Get on board

"Football doesn't generate a lot of money for many, if not most, DI schools." WRONG!!!! I'm a BYU alumni. BYU football keeps many of the women's programs going. (Despite very poor attendance for most of the women's sports) I'm all for equality, but men are now discriminated against. Show me a men's sport that offers scholarships to someone that has no experience in the sport. (Women's Rowing) ABSURD!!!!

Jared | 2:51 p.m. May 6, 2009

Beach volleyball is an olympic sport. For years matches have held in many CITIES in the heart of thier state no where near a beach, granted they also play on actual beaches, but it isn't necessary. I have no problem with them adding sports to NCAA, provided that men and Women have a shot to get on a team.

With title 9 many sports have been terminated that ALSO ARE OLYMPIC SPORTS, LIKE WRESTLING ACROSS THE COUNTRY. Title 9 was done with good intentions, as MANY government programs are, but as ALL!!!!!!!!! government programs it's hurt more people than it has helped THAT IS A FACT!!!!!!!!

We need to chage it, alter it, or END IT!!!!!!

As for the smart PERSON who believes that FOOTBALL doesn't generate Income for the University, you might want to study up. In a stadium of 70,000 with an AVG. Ticket costing only $16.00 you make 1.12 Million A GAME. BTW my seats are $70.00 a seat a game, not $16.00. Usually the avg price is around $32.00. That money is used for the UNV. It is NCAA RULES!!!!!!! YOU'RE WRONG!!!!!! Look it up!!!!!!!

Drop it! | 2:58 p.m. May 6, 2009

Title IX that is. What an awful, oppressive scheme of reguation. Drop it! Bring back the men's sports it's killed off.

Re: Fox | 2:58 p.m. May 6, 2009

So what worthless women's sport are you a big fan of?

RE: get on board | 3:05 p.m. May 6, 2009

byu dress code? last i saw the women's volleyball team didnt adhere to any dress code. they wear the same butt hugging shorts everybody else does.

sick of it | 3:20 p.m. May 6, 2009

Can you really say that beach volleyball is a sport. I know that it is included in the Olympics, but why? You might as well include chess and checkers for all the excitement that it brings. I got sick of watching a bunch of beach bum in their bikinis and shorts dive around in the sand.

Get on board | 3:37 p.m. May 6, 2009

I was referring to the tank tops as being the item of clothing that might make or break it for BYU. I'm well aware that volleyball players nation wide (including extremely conservative religious private schools) wear spandex shorts.

That being said, BYU is not your average DI school. Do some schools have a revenue of $60.9 million (Texas, look it up)? Yes. Most schools? No!
Some schools may make big bucks, but for many the costs outweigh the income.

Bob | 4:13 p.m. May 6, 2009

Title 9 is an abomination!

Re: hopskotch really? | 4:33 p.m. May 6, 2009

It wouldn't be a problem if they also added mens sand volleyball. This wasn't a dis on beach volleyball

#1 | 4:39 p.m. May 6, 2009

I played soccer for 13 years, was first team all state, and had to travel to the east coast for a scholarship because of "womens rowing."

awsomeron | 4:45 p.m. May 6, 2009

I love Title IX. I think this is a good idea and it is an Olympic Sport. It is cheap and easy to play, on a low level. It is fun good exercise and great for fitness.

My question would be will BYU, BYUH (that Campus is almost on a beach), and BYUI take part and what will the Uniforms look like. It is already in some High Schools, but you can easily convert to the game from Regular Volleyball.

In Hawaii we have High School Surfing for both Boys and Girls Teams.

Title Nine is one of the very good things that happened for Womens Rights and Education Rights. Because before Title IX, it was mostly all for the boys.

Re: awsomeron | 5:51 p.m. May 6, 2009

BYUI will not take part. They don't have NCAA sports.

You must not know to much about BYUI.

solution | 6:04 p.m. May 6, 2009

One post earlier mentioned dance as a sport. I have to agree, some of the best athletes are dancers (male and female). Why can't we tweak title 9 to classify dance, drill team, cheerleading as official sports. Give these programs the scholarships Rowing teams and other disproportionately allocated womens sports get.

Dancing and Drill team take as practice and physical ability than other sports. That would seem to even out things and make if more fair for everyone.

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