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New LDS temple unlike others in the area
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Anonymous | 10:25 a.m. Jan. 11, 2009
To Re: Anonymous | 9:36 p.m
Wow, a bit harsh don't you think? Someone asks some sincere questions and you accuse them of making "ignorant assumptions" and call them "stubborn"? Is that how you share the gospel?
Wow, a bit harsh don't you think? Someone asks some sincere questions and you accuse them of making "ignorant assumptions" and call them "stubborn"? Is that how you share the gospel?
Boring | 10:35 a.m. Jan. 11, 2009
I was going to write something on here but decided It's not necessary with
all the hateful know it alls from both sides blabbing away.
Comments continue below
A PROUD MORMON! | 3:33 p.m. Jan. 11, 2009
I can't wait for the new temple!!! I get to go see it in about a week! and
to all of those who are leaving nasty comments i just want to say that that is
so rude! you shouldn't say stuff like that! and if you don't like
Mormons so much, why are you reading this article? But, i really hope that
everybody (even non-mormons) goes to the open house of this temple! i bet that
you will feel the spirit so strongly and you will not be able to turn away from
the church because of the spirit.
The temples of the Bible | 3:45 p.m. Jan. 11, 2009
were little like the temples in the Mormon church. And further, they certainly
didn't require a "recommend" to go inside. Sure, it's great
they have "open houses", but it's not cool that they then close
them except for people who "qualify"
I have had the "spirit" | 3:55 p.m. Jan. 11, 2009
that you speak of and it is nothing more than good feelings that you can get in
a variety of areas. When a person finally decides to study the issues closely
with another point of view other than your church's point of
view...that's when you find the "truth".
Terry | 4:26 p.m. Jan. 11, 2009
I'm not LDS, but I'm going to see the temple next week. I think its
pretty impressive and even if I'm not a member of the church I still want
to see. I wonder if I'm in a minority.
shawilli | 6:22 p.m. Jan. 11, 2009
God Bless the members to hold their tounge and to simply turn the other cheek,
as those not of our faith heap scorn and ridicule on us. the command of the Lord
is clear to "love one another" and to pray for those who despitefully
use us.I hope that the members will engage in being kind to others and to going
about the work of the temple and to make sure that our actions as curch members
will always speak louder than our words.The saying that talk is cheap is true,
show others the joy and happiness that come from living the gospel by your very
lives.I would counsel our members to stop this at once the making snide and
stupid remarks in response to those who post negative comments. Stop it!!! bite
your tounges and do what is right, love your enemies and go about your business
and ignore the hate and ignorance of others, don't just talk about your
religion...LIVE IT !!!
Paul in MD | 6:51 p.m. Jan. 11, 2009
To Since @7:08 1/10
Yes, LDS temples are different than buildings used for Sunday worship services, whether LDS or "mainstream Christian" churches. What goes on in other churches, goes on in LDS chapels as well, and everyone is welcome to come and see for themselves, anytime the chapel is in use. Since we don't have paid clergy, no one lives at our chapels, so they are not open all the time.
Many of the larger temples have visitor centers next door, so anyone who is curious can find out what goes on inside, and see pictures of the inside. Some things are not discussed outside the temple, because they are sacred. I've been attending the temple for 25 years, in and outside the US. There is not some great cover-up, some big PR white-wash. The general information is freely discussed.
You seem to make a distinction between Christians and Mormons. If you'd take the time to find out what we really believe and what is truly important to us, you'd see the differences are far smaller than the similarities.
Yes, LDS temples are different than buildings used for Sunday worship services, whether LDS or "mainstream Christian" churches. What goes on in other churches, goes on in LDS chapels as well, and everyone is welcome to come and see for themselves, anytime the chapel is in use. Since we don't have paid clergy, no one lives at our chapels, so they are not open all the time.
Many of the larger temples have visitor centers next door, so anyone who is curious can find out what goes on inside, and see pictures of the inside. Some things are not discussed outside the temple, because they are sacred. I've been attending the temple for 25 years, in and outside the US. There is not some great cover-up, some big PR white-wash. The general information is freely discussed.
You seem to make a distinction between Christians and Mormons. If you'd take the time to find out what we really believe and what is truly important to us, you'd see the differences are far smaller than the similarities.
K | 7:39 p.m. Jan. 11, 2009
Why must any church be required to fullfill all the charitable spending or
service required the help the poor? There are countless churches all doing
charitable works. There are also government programs providing for the basics
needs of their citizens in need of assistance.
Churches spend a far greater percent of their revenues on humanitarian efforts than governments and corporations and are more efficient.
One more church keeps another liquor store from going into business and keeps at least the membership occupied and less likely to get into michief. Two public goods.
Also people who donate regularly tend to be better at handling other areas of their budget in normal times. Anyone can have trouble with an illness or job loss. But all in all if you can live on 90% you tend to also save as it's just as easy to live on 80%. More people disciplined is also a good. Church is good for people, buildings are necessary.
God talked all over the old testament about buildings/how they are to be built and how he wants to be worshiped there. Jesus went to temple and other than the money changers and the hypocrites, didn't object to buildings.
Churches spend a far greater percent of their revenues on humanitarian efforts than governments and corporations and are more efficient.
One more church keeps another liquor store from going into business and keeps at least the membership occupied and less likely to get into michief. Two public goods.
Also people who donate regularly tend to be better at handling other areas of their budget in normal times. Anyone can have trouble with an illness or job loss. But all in all if you can live on 90% you tend to also save as it's just as easy to live on 80%. More people disciplined is also a good. Church is good for people, buildings are necessary.
God talked all over the old testament about buildings/how they are to be built and how he wants to be worshiped there. Jesus went to temple and other than the money changers and the hypocrites, didn't object to buildings.
Too Proud | 8:41 p.m. Jan. 11, 2009
RE: K
It's called ATTENTION!!!
It's called ATTENTION!!!
Temples | 8:52 p.m. Jan. 11, 2009
Actually if you read the Bible you will find that Christ did teach about tithes
and offerings. The Old Testament is as relevant today as the New Testament.
Many Christians fail to understand that what is written in the Old Testament is
relevant and were taught by Christ. He did not abolish the Law of Moses but
fulfilled it. The ten commandments were not abolished but made stronger.
Temples are where sacred ordinances are done. The Lord's Church prospers because of the sacrifice of its members. Remember what is Ceasar's is Ceasar's but what is the Lord's is the Lord's. Think of the parable of the mother who gave all she had and how Christ said to his disciples her place is greater than those who give a little, because she gave all she had. Think of the rich man who asked about the kingdom of God and how Christ stated how difficult it is for a rich man to enter the kingdom. Christ told him to give all he had to the Church. The rich man declined.
The priesthood of Aaron and the Melchezidek priesthood is taught exceptionally well in the Bible. You just need to read it.
Temples are where sacred ordinances are done. The Lord's Church prospers because of the sacrifice of its members. Remember what is Ceasar's is Ceasar's but what is the Lord's is the Lord's. Think of the parable of the mother who gave all she had and how Christ said to his disciples her place is greater than those who give a little, because she gave all she had. Think of the rich man who asked about the kingdom of God and how Christ stated how difficult it is for a rich man to enter the kingdom. Christ told him to give all he had to the Church. The rich man declined.
The priesthood of Aaron and the Melchezidek priesthood is taught exceptionally well in the Bible. You just need to read it.
Jeremy | 9:12 p.m. Jan. 11, 2009
***I love to see the temple, I'm going there someday, to feel the Holy
Spirit, to whisper and to pray***
lds architect | 10:37 p.m. Jan. 11, 2009
Unique design? What?! It looks like every other temple. This temple has a
simlar massing and spatial composition as the Bountiful and Mt. Timpanogos (sp)
Temples. It's just a little smaller. Personally, I would like to see LDS
chapels and temples have more individual designs. The temple/chapels hardly
recongize and respect their surroundings more than a few applied decorations.
For example, this temple has the Sego Lilly and Wasatch Front applied to the
building.
Cathy | 10:43 p.m. Jan. 11, 2009
I am from Tasmania .Our nearest Temple is in Melbourne 1 hour flying.We try to
go every year and all our grandchildren have been to the Temple when they turn
12 years of age . It is very sad that people who know so little about the Temple
and the true doctrine of Jesus christ say unkind things about it.I am a convert
and feel so blessed to have the true gospel restored to the earth. What a
wonderful life it is.
Re: Anonymous | 10:25 a.m. | 12:21 a.m. Jan. 12, 2009
If you were to make the assumptions I was talking about then that would classify
you as ignorant, if you didn't experience it for yourself. Everyone has a
choice to visit and check out what a temple is like. If you go in with a
neutral heart, then you can get an honest and true opinion, whether you like
them or not in the end, at least its an honest opinion.
When someone jumps to conclusions before they experience the reality of something, then it is an ignorant assumption. That's just the name of it in the English language. If that offends you or seems harsh, "the guilty taketh the truth to be hard."
My offer is test it out. Try it. What have you got to lose? You know they are not going to harm you, kill you, or ask for money. A temple walk through is harmless, it just takes a few minutes and a little walking. That's all. So, why not try it? See what all this discussion really is about. Until you try something for yourself, how can you be so sure of your opinion?
That's a summary of what I meant.
When someone jumps to conclusions before they experience the reality of something, then it is an ignorant assumption. That's just the name of it in the English language. If that offends you or seems harsh, "the guilty taketh the truth to be hard."
My offer is test it out. Try it. What have you got to lose? You know they are not going to harm you, kill you, or ask for money. A temple walk through is harmless, it just takes a few minutes and a little walking. That's all. So, why not try it? See what all this discussion really is about. Until you try something for yourself, how can you be so sure of your opinion?
That's a summary of what I meant.
Ned | 8:52 a.m. Jan. 12, 2009
Could the ANTI trolls please find another post. You are not welcome here.
We can see the temple from our backyard.
We can see the temple from our backyard.
Anonymous | 10:52 a.m. Jan. 12, 2009
I think the new temple is beautiful. I spent a few hours there the other day,
it was very peaceful and nice. I hope that everyone who visits will experience
those feelings of comfort and security. The temple is a great blessing to Utah
and to all those who will visit it.
SCJ | 10:54 a.m. Jan. 12, 2009
We attended the Jordan River Temple on Friday, man was it packed. It's
wonderful that additional temples are being required. It shows that the work is
progressing.
Paul in MD | 11:02 a.m. Jan. 12, 2009
To LDS architect @10:37 1/11
I have seen some unique chapels in recent years. The Kentlands, Maryland chapel was built on land donated by the developer of the surrounding neighborhood. The donation allowed more funds to be used in construction that is typical - the church allocates a specific amount for each chapel, depending on the active membership in the area it will serve.
The site was not flat, so the design had to be altered from the usual. Also, the developer stipulated that the chapel had to fit the neighborhood's design standards. That fell within the church's standards, so it was done that way. The chapel is beautiful and unique.
However, coming up with a unique design for every chapel would drive up the costs, something the church tries to avoid. They are, after all, trying to do as much as possible without incurring debt, something they've been able to do successfully since the late-1800's.
I have seen some unique chapels in recent years. The Kentlands, Maryland chapel was built on land donated by the developer of the surrounding neighborhood. The donation allowed more funds to be used in construction that is typical - the church allocates a specific amount for each chapel, depending on the active membership in the area it will serve.
The site was not flat, so the design had to be altered from the usual. Also, the developer stipulated that the chapel had to fit the neighborhood's design standards. That fell within the church's standards, so it was done that way. The chapel is beautiful and unique.
However, coming up with a unique design for every chapel would drive up the costs, something the church tries to avoid. They are, after all, trying to do as much as possible without incurring debt, something they've been able to do successfully since the late-1800's.
Luke | 11:47 a.m. Jan. 12, 2009
The catholics and others have build great cathedrals through out the world and
now the mormons are populating the world with temples and what good has it done:
the poor are still poor and the rich more rich and no one the wiser improved, or
better off; just more talk, preaching and no results or action. Would not a
good library make more sense.
K | 12:28 p.m. Jan. 12, 2009
Luke,
The world will always have poor people. Christ commanded feed my sheep for a reason. It would always be applicable to every generation.
As to the no one improved or better off because of religion I tend to disagree. The poor countries are much more faithful, whatever the religion. Our Pope has talked about the loss of faith in US and richer Eurpean countries. Spritual apathy. Mother Theresa talked about a different kind of poverty in richer nations as well. I would argue that the people of America and Europe need places to worship in as desperately as the people in Haiti need food and security.
The world will always have poor people. Christ commanded feed my sheep for a reason. It would always be applicable to every generation.
As to the no one improved or better off because of religion I tend to disagree. The poor countries are much more faithful, whatever the religion. Our Pope has talked about the loss of faith in US and richer Eurpean countries. Spritual apathy. Mother Theresa talked about a different kind of poverty in richer nations as well. I would argue that the people of America and Europe need places to worship in as desperately as the people in Haiti need food and security.
Why? | 12:44 p.m. Jan. 12, 2009
do you stay in Utah if each piece of news about The Church makes you so unhappy.
I live outside of Utah far away and am struck each time I read the newspaper by
the number of negative comments in at least one article every day.
If you are not happy, why do you stay in Utah? There must be something that keeps you there. If not, find another place where you can be happy and go there where the news won't make you miserable. Life is too short. There is much good to be gained and to give wherever you live. So much wasted time and effort. Go to school, volunteer, put some of your negative energy into doing something good rather than spending so much time on the computer criticizing those who are do gooders. Here's the first step . . .turn off the computer . . . ready? . . . push start, click on "shut down" . . . . Good, now don't you feel better?! Now go outside and smell the snow, look at the mountains, go sledding, visit a museum, smile at someone!
If you are not happy, why do you stay in Utah? There must be something that keeps you there. If not, find another place where you can be happy and go there where the news won't make you miserable. Life is too short. There is much good to be gained and to give wherever you live. So much wasted time and effort. Go to school, volunteer, put some of your negative energy into doing something good rather than spending so much time on the computer criticizing those who are do gooders. Here's the first step . . .turn off the computer . . . ready? . . . push start, click on "shut down" . . . . Good, now don't you feel better?! Now go outside and smell the snow, look at the mountains, go sledding, visit a museum, smile at someone!
To: K 12:28 | 1:26 p.m. Jan. 12, 2009
I guess that is a fine and good if you are not one of the poor, are you; if so I
hope you can find help through learning at your library or other services, I
doubt your church will do much for you long term, good luck.
K | 4:46 p.m. Jan. 12, 2009
Why should my church help me long term? God helps those who help themselves. I
have more of an obligation that to receive help for life from my Church or
anyone else's. There is no shame is being rich, there is no shame in being
poor. The only shame is not sharing.
Totally agree about the library being helpful. I was a librarian. So I'm hardly rich, hardly poor either. But even the library can only do so much. It's one piece of the puzzle.
If you needed emergency help where would you turn. St Vincent DePaul, your local food bank which is in large supply due to donations from churches or people who attend services somewhere. You would not get quick assistance from the government as you have to prove need, which is as it should be for more regular assistance. A company's HR department would be of help by eventually hiring perhaps but it even if you were hired on the spot it would takes weeks to get your first check. So for quick assistance, immediate assistance I'll call the nearest place of worship first.
Totally agree about the library being helpful. I was a librarian. So I'm hardly rich, hardly poor either. But even the library can only do so much. It's one piece of the puzzle.
If you needed emergency help where would you turn. St Vincent DePaul, your local food bank which is in large supply due to donations from churches or people who attend services somewhere. You would not get quick assistance from the government as you have to prove need, which is as it should be for more regular assistance. A company's HR department would be of help by eventually hiring perhaps but it even if you were hired on the spot it would takes weeks to get your first check. So for quick assistance, immediate assistance I'll call the nearest place of worship first.
To "I am going to the temple" | 5:05 p.m. Jan. 12, 2009
I'm sure it will be pretty. I've been to many temples and they are
beautiful. But I'm sure the Catholic cathedrals are too and I would like
to visit those in a variety of places in the world. That's what they
are...beautiful buildings. I am no longer a Mormon and I am very happy to be
free of all your confining "dogmas". You need to learn that there are
a variety of people in the world and many of us are as close to "God"
as you!
Re: outreach eternity | 5:21 p.m. Jan. 12, 2009
Each time a temple is built and is working for our
members my heart swells with humility. This is a
sign that more people in our world will be able to
make sacred covenants with our Heavely Father. We
are striving to be better people, better members of
the church, and learning to love others as ourselves. We are trying to be what our Heavenly
Father wants us to be. Hip Hip Huray!
members my heart swells with humility. This is a
sign that more people in our world will be able to
make sacred covenants with our Heavely Father. We
are striving to be better people, better members of
the church, and learning to love others as ourselves. We are trying to be what our Heavenly
Father wants us to be. Hip Hip Huray!
Get a life | 9:48 p.m. Jan. 12, 2009
"It's beautiful for everyone to share their comments and beliefs, but
PLEASE if you want your statements to be credible: be sure to spell check and
use proper grammar."
Kind of like either wear a white shirt to church or don't come at all?
PLEASE if you want your statements to be small-minded: concentrate on the spelling and grammar. Don't bother with the idea behind the words.......
Kind of like either wear a white shirt to church or don't come at all?
PLEASE if you want your statements to be small-minded: concentrate on the spelling and grammar. Don't bother with the idea behind the words.......
To To "I am going | 5:05 | 5:01 a.m. Jan. 13, 2009
Um . . . it would seem that anyone that puts quotes around the word God in
describing what he's close to, isn't close to God.
That is because what | 7:53 a.m. Jan. 13, 2009
Mormons consider as the words of "God" and what many other people do
is different. That is what I've been amazed at with the the Mormons. A
number of them can be so educated and yet when it comes to religion and the
variety of beliefs they often don't have a clue. Don't like the
quotes? Ok. My God and the billions of other people's God is equal to your
beliefs in God.
Anonymous | 8:26 a.m. Jan. 13, 2009
Actually, we have a whole lot recorded of what Jesus did. Jesus' NOT
building or instructing others to build temples is contrary to Mormons'
claim that Temple worship is essential to the "true," original
Church.
As for tithing, you can say anything is "voluntary". Giving your money to the robber who has a knife to your throat is "voluntary". Are you saying I could worship in an LDS Temple if I did not pay tithing?
You claim "the evidence of temples in Jesus' life and ministry is everywhere." But you have not shown that there is ANY evidence that Temple worship is part (or the pinnacle!) of true Christian worship as established by Jesus.
The Old Testament (Covenant) involved very limited Temple ritual. Jesus clearly taught that the old covenant was fulfilled and no longer needed. The Temple-based Passover was replaced by the Lord's Supper in a common home, not at the Jewish Temple.
I still don't see any Biblical support for Christian Temple worship. You have failed to provide any. I would like to understand why Mormons think these temples are "restored" Christianity.
As for tithing, you can say anything is "voluntary". Giving your money to the robber who has a knife to your throat is "voluntary". Are you saying I could worship in an LDS Temple if I did not pay tithing?
You claim "the evidence of temples in Jesus' life and ministry is everywhere." But you have not shown that there is ANY evidence that Temple worship is part (or the pinnacle!) of true Christian worship as established by Jesus.
The Old Testament (Covenant) involved very limited Temple ritual. Jesus clearly taught that the old covenant was fulfilled and no longer needed. The Temple-based Passover was replaced by the Lord's Supper in a common home, not at the Jewish Temple.
I still don't see any Biblical support for Christian Temple worship. You have failed to provide any. I would like to understand why Mormons think these temples are "restored" Christianity.
Re: GET A LIFE! | 9:14 a.m. Jan. 13, 2009
Perhaps you you need to find another place to check peoples grammar and whatnot
instead of DES/NEW. It's nothing to get irritated over. Most blogs have one
mistake after another on them. People really don't care that much. Maybe
you need to go pray about it.
Excuse my typos, because I really don't care-- blah, blah blah.
You must be a Troll?
Excuse my typos, because I really don't care-- blah, blah blah.
You must be a Troll?
Anonymous | 9:14 a.m. Jan. 13, 2009
It is very clear from the New Testament as well as legitimate history that Jesus
was persecuted and killed because he taught against temple worship. It was the
chief priests of the TEMPLE, and the "captains" of the TEMPLE, and the
elders of the TEMPLE who accused Jesus, captured him, and took him to his death.
The only thing they needed help with was a Roman court so they could try him for
a capital offense.
"Then Jesus said unto the chief priests, and captains of the temple, and the elders, which were come to him, Be ye come out, as against a thief, with swords and staves?
When I was daily with you in the temple, ye stretched forth no hands against me: but this is your hour, and the power of darkness.
Then took they him, and led him, and brought him into the high priest�s house. And Peter followed afar off." Luke 22:52-54
Can't anyone show any evidence that Jesus' original church included the rituals and buildings Mormons claim are "restored" Christianity?
"Then Jesus said unto the chief priests, and captains of the temple, and the elders, which were come to him, Be ye come out, as against a thief, with swords and staves?
When I was daily with you in the temple, ye stretched forth no hands against me: but this is your hour, and the power of darkness.
Then took they him, and led him, and brought him into the high priest�s house. And Peter followed afar off." Luke 22:52-54
Can't anyone show any evidence that Jesus' original church included the rituals and buildings Mormons claim are "restored" Christianity?
re: Anonymous @ 8:26 | 10:21 a.m. Jan. 13, 2009
Why would Christ command his disciples to build temples while Herod's
Temple was still standing? And arguing from silence on the matter doesn't
further your point. If you want to only go by the fragmentary and second hand
accounts of what's said (or isn't) in the Bible, good for you. The
LDS believe that Christ has commanded temple construction today, so we do it.
Nice conflation of tithing with assault and robbery. If you're such a strict biblical constructionist, why don't you believe in tithing?
As to temples in Christian thought, spend some time researching it. You'll undoubtedly ignore the material from LDS scholars as apologetic propaganda, but there's plenty of non-LDS scholarship out there to support LDS claims that the importance of temple worship and ritual was not lessened for Christians in the immediate aftermath Christ's resurrection. For both early Christians and modern LDS, temple ritual is fundamentally about creating sacred space in which to commune with God.
Nice conflation of tithing with assault and robbery. If you're such a strict biblical constructionist, why don't you believe in tithing?
As to temples in Christian thought, spend some time researching it. You'll undoubtedly ignore the material from LDS scholars as apologetic propaganda, but there's plenty of non-LDS scholarship out there to support LDS claims that the importance of temple worship and ritual was not lessened for Christians in the immediate aftermath Christ's resurrection. For both early Christians and modern LDS, temple ritual is fundamentally about creating sacred space in which to commune with God.
K | 11:25 a.m. Jan. 13, 2009
Christ also was specific about giving to God and giving to Caesar.Tithing is
specifically spelled out both in the old testament and from the words of Christ
in the new testament.
Your not finding evidence of Christ asking for religious structures doesn't negate your obligation to support financially any church, if you are christian.
My church encourages more giving to other charities than the LDS, but asks for a good percentage as they also do humanitarian efforts. But honestly the LDS are such a small percentage of the population. If all their 10% and fast offerings went to the poor, it wouldn't be enough. Instead of being critical of religious followers giving to their churches and how churches spend the money, how about going after those who don't practice any faith? They got so much money lying around since they don't have a weekly envelope to contribute to.
Remember the loaves and the fish, when 2 or 3 are gathered? Christ meant for people to gather together. Religious building are vital. Particularly in harsher climates.
If you aren't making an income, you aren't required to contribute to the weekly envelope. Any % of $0 is $0.
Your not finding evidence of Christ asking for religious structures doesn't negate your obligation to support financially any church, if you are christian.
My church encourages more giving to other charities than the LDS, but asks for a good percentage as they also do humanitarian efforts. But honestly the LDS are such a small percentage of the population. If all their 10% and fast offerings went to the poor, it wouldn't be enough. Instead of being critical of religious followers giving to their churches and how churches spend the money, how about going after those who don't practice any faith? They got so much money lying around since they don't have a weekly envelope to contribute to.
Remember the loaves and the fish, when 2 or 3 are gathered? Christ meant for people to gather together. Religious building are vital. Particularly in harsher climates.
If you aren't making an income, you aren't required to contribute to the weekly envelope. Any % of $0 is $0.
Pete | 12:43 p.m. Jan. 13, 2009
umm, a fine congregation on here.
Memorial forever | 1:17 p.m. Jan. 13, 2009
The poster 1:26 p.m. Jan. 12, 2009 said:
�guess that is a fine and good if you are not one of the poor, are you; if so I hope you can find help through learning at your library or other services, I doubt your church will do much for you long term, good luck.�
If everyone in the world were to follow the example of the LDS Church by fasting once a month and donate the cost of two meals as a fast offering to help the poor, poverty would vanish.
Judas criticized the women for anointing Christ with expensive oil saying she should have sold the oil and gave the money that was paid for it to the poor. How did Christ reply? He said to leave the woman alone, that she had done it to honor him; that the poor would always be with us. Then he blessed the woman and said her deed to him would be a memorial to her forever. You are pointing your criticisms in the wrong direction.
�guess that is a fine and good if you are not one of the poor, are you; if so I hope you can find help through learning at your library or other services, I doubt your church will do much for you long term, good luck.�
If everyone in the world were to follow the example of the LDS Church by fasting once a month and donate the cost of two meals as a fast offering to help the poor, poverty would vanish.
Judas criticized the women for anointing Christ with expensive oil saying she should have sold the oil and gave the money that was paid for it to the poor. How did Christ reply? He said to leave the woman alone, that she had done it to honor him; that the poor would always be with us. Then he blessed the woman and said her deed to him would be a memorial to her forever. You are pointing your criticisms in the wrong direction.
Re: Anonymous 9:14 pm | 1:38 p.m. Jan. 13, 2009
"Can't anyone show any evidence that Jesus' original church
included the rituals and buildings Mormons claim are "restored"
Christianity?"
There are at least ten different sources from early Christian scholars, Justin Martyr, Josephus, Irenaeus, St. Ambrose, the Pastor of Hermas, and others, all documented that the very early Christian church (first and second centuries) baptized people for the dead, just as the Mormons do in their temples. It was documentated as late as the 5th century by Epiphanius. Synod the Hippo, when recording the events of the Nicene counsels, wrote that down as one of the practices the counsels voted to do away with in the 4th century. There is also an apostalic parchment sheet, only in scraps, that historians have been studying for years. In 1895, a Coptic papyrus sheet matching those scraps of parchment was found, and it details a whole list of work for the dead that those first and second century Christians were performing - including baptisms and marriages. Just like LDS temple ordinances. And these were all found more than 50 years AFTER Joseph Smith reinstituted the practices. There was no possible way he could have known about them. Go figure.
There are at least ten different sources from early Christian scholars, Justin Martyr, Josephus, Irenaeus, St. Ambrose, the Pastor of Hermas, and others, all documented that the very early Christian church (first and second centuries) baptized people for the dead, just as the Mormons do in their temples. It was documentated as late as the 5th century by Epiphanius. Synod the Hippo, when recording the events of the Nicene counsels, wrote that down as one of the practices the counsels voted to do away with in the 4th century. There is also an apostalic parchment sheet, only in scraps, that historians have been studying for years. In 1895, a Coptic papyrus sheet matching those scraps of parchment was found, and it details a whole list of work for the dead that those first and second century Christians were performing - including baptisms and marriages. Just like LDS temple ordinances. And these were all found more than 50 years AFTER Joseph Smith reinstituted the practices. There was no possible way he could have known about them. Go figure.
Yes, there might be | 3:08 p.m. Jan. 13, 2009
a fine "congregation on here"...we don't know. And this is a
clue; the world is full of many different kinds of people. Not all people will
ever be the same and not all people (not even a small majority) will ever
qualify as members of the Mormon church. So please enjoy the beautiful
structures and know that some others might think the buildngs are pretty, but
they will never be able to attend them.
Anonymous | 3:20 p.m. Jan. 13, 2009
To re: Anonymous @ 8:26 | 10:21 a.m.
First, perhaps you should take a chill pill. You are WAY too defensive and only drive people away from investigating your Church. Is that your intent?
"Why would Christ command his disciples to build temples while Herod's Temple was still standing?"
Isn't that like asking why build the Draper Temple while the Salt Lake Temple is still standing?
How am I "arguing from silence"? What exactly do you think my "point" is?
You LDS are the ones with the "point". You are trying to tell me you have the original, "true" Christianity restored. If that is true, then I would expect to see evidence in the New Testament of the kind of Temple worship Mormons do today.
Nobody "conflated tithing with assault and robbery." Tithing us used to build temples. Right? Why so rude and defensive?
Perhaps instead of YOU replying in a rude and unhelpful way, there is an LDS person who knows what they are talking about who can answer my questions in a kind and intelligent way?
I think the question is clear: Where is the New Testament evidence that Temple worship was ever part of original/true Christianity?
First, perhaps you should take a chill pill. You are WAY too defensive and only drive people away from investigating your Church. Is that your intent?
"Why would Christ command his disciples to build temples while Herod's Temple was still standing?"
Isn't that like asking why build the Draper Temple while the Salt Lake Temple is still standing?
How am I "arguing from silence"? What exactly do you think my "point" is?
You LDS are the ones with the "point". You are trying to tell me you have the original, "true" Christianity restored. If that is true, then I would expect to see evidence in the New Testament of the kind of Temple worship Mormons do today.
Nobody "conflated tithing with assault and robbery." Tithing us used to build temples. Right? Why so rude and defensive?
Perhaps instead of YOU replying in a rude and unhelpful way, there is an LDS person who knows what they are talking about who can answer my questions in a kind and intelligent way?
I think the question is clear: Where is the New Testament evidence that Temple worship was ever part of original/true Christianity?
DC Mormon | 3:40 p.m. Jan. 13, 2009
To The temples of the Bible | 3:45 p.m. Jan. 11, 2009:
Actually, ancient Jewish temples were quite restrictive of who could and could not empty as were Egyptian temples. In Egypt, where I lived and explored for quite some time studying the culture and visiting the Temples, ancient temples were restricted to the priests and royal house with separate courtyards for non-priests. You had to be a priest to enter the sacred inner chambers or a ruler (who were considered sacred). Likewise, the Jewish temple had signs inidicating how close to the temple non-Jews were permitted, hence that area was called the Courtyard of the Gentiles. Only ordained priests were permitted within the temple itself. So, in effect, they did have temple recommends of a sort.
Actually, ancient Jewish temples were quite restrictive of who could and could not empty as were Egyptian temples. In Egypt, where I lived and explored for quite some time studying the culture and visiting the Temples, ancient temples were restricted to the priests and royal house with separate courtyards for non-priests. You had to be a priest to enter the sacred inner chambers or a ruler (who were considered sacred). Likewise, the Jewish temple had signs inidicating how close to the temple non-Jews were permitted, hence that area was called the Courtyard of the Gentiles. Only ordained priests were permitted within the temple itself. So, in effect, they did have temple recommends of a sort.
Anonymous | 3:41 p.m. Jan. 13, 2009
I am familiar with Old Testament Temple rituals. Its sole function was to teach
the need for atonement of sins as a precondition for authentic worship of the
true and living God. The altar of burnt offering was located immediately in
front of the only entrance to the Jerusalem temple for this reason. Next to that
altar was the Laver, or "molten sea" in which the priests washed up
after killing the sacrifice (a bloody business).
Will I see an altar of burnt offering in the Draper temple? No, you will probably say, because Jesus did away with burnt offerings, right? Well, that was the main purpose of temple, so it seems to mean Jesus did away with Temple worship.
Jesus did not teach "in the Temple". He taught in the outer courts that were open to the public. Only the priests were able to enter "The Holy Place" and only the High Priest on special occasions was able to enter the "Holy of Holies" in which sat the Ark of the Covenant.
What will I find in Draper? More importantly, how did Jesus change Temple worship, and where is the New Testament evidence of Mormon Temple worship?
Will I see an altar of burnt offering in the Draper temple? No, you will probably say, because Jesus did away with burnt offerings, right? Well, that was the main purpose of temple, so it seems to mean Jesus did away with Temple worship.
Jesus did not teach "in the Temple". He taught in the outer courts that were open to the public. Only the priests were able to enter "The Holy Place" and only the High Priest on special occasions was able to enter the "Holy of Holies" in which sat the Ark of the Covenant.
What will I find in Draper? More importantly, how did Jesus change Temple worship, and where is the New Testament evidence of Mormon Temple worship?
Anonymous | 3:48 p.m. Jan. 13, 2009
It seems reasonable to assume that if (Mormon) Temple worship is such an
important part of original, "true" Christianity, then Jesus would have
made it a priority for his disciples and apostles to institute the kind of
rituals Mormons do in their temples today. There should be evidence of this in
the New Testament. There should be evidence of this in ANY ancient accounts of
Jesus' life and teachings, but there isn't, at least that I am aware
of. That is why I ask. Are there New Testament (or ancient texts) evidence that
JESUS taught or established anything remotely like the Temple worship Mormons
carry out today?
I really would like to know as I tour the Draper temple. I would be happy to meet someone there who could answer my questions.
Anyone willing to help?
I really would like to know as I tour the Draper temple. I would be happy to meet someone there who could answer my questions.
Anyone willing to help?
Anonymous | 4:03 p.m. Jan. 13, 2009
1:38 p.m.,
Thank you. Was that so hard?
So you are equivocating Christian Temple worship with baptisms for the dead? These source you allude to do not explain why baptism for the dead was not part of Old Testament (Solomon's temple or the Jerusalem temple) ritual. Nor do they support the contention that baptisms for the dead took place in the Jewish Temple. And they especially fail to show that JESUS taught about, or directed his followers to carry out, or otherwise participate in baptism for the dead or any other temple rituals.
Thank you. Was that so hard?
So you are equivocating Christian Temple worship with baptisms for the dead? These source you allude to do not explain why baptism for the dead was not part of Old Testament (Solomon's temple or the Jerusalem temple) ritual. Nor do they support the contention that baptisms for the dead took place in the Jewish Temple. And they especially fail to show that JESUS taught about, or directed his followers to carry out, or otherwise participate in baptism for the dead or any other temple rituals.
Anonymous | 4:15 p.m. Jan. 13, 2009
Is the sole or main purpose of Mormon temples to do "baptisms for the
dead"? If not, what is the main purpose of the Mormon temples?
If these purposes are so important for "true" Christianity, as Mormons claim was "restored" by Joseph Smith, where is the evidence that Jesus considered these rituals to be so important?
The histories of the LDS Church I have read say that temples were so important that they started building them even before building houses for the people in the Salt Lake valley. If temples are that important to original, true Christianity, why did Jesus fail to emphasize them in the same way?
If these purposes are so important for "true" Christianity, as Mormons claim was "restored" by Joseph Smith, where is the evidence that Jesus considered these rituals to be so important?
The histories of the LDS Church I have read say that temples were so important that they started building them even before building houses for the people in the Salt Lake valley. If temples are that important to original, true Christianity, why did Jesus fail to emphasize them in the same way?
Anonymous | 4:28 p.m. Jan. 13, 2009
I guess one explanation as to why there is no evidence of Jesus teaching about
temples and the rituals Mormons associate with temples is that Jesus himself
apostatized from true Christiantity! Is that what Mormons are saying?
Huh? | 4:32 p.m. Jan. 13, 2009
I read a lot of comments on here and from other posts that say something like,
"I'm so glad to not be a Mormon anymore and be free from all of the
restrictive rules."
Which rules? There are rules everywhere in society. What is it that you are so anxious to get free from?
Seems to me the real killer of freedom is addiction - be it alcohol, tobacco, pornography, etc. Been there, done that. That's not freedom.
When I hear people saying how glad they are to be free from the church, I think what they really mean is that they know deep down right from wrong and attending church/being around other members reminds them that they're on the wrong path.
I've yet to attend church and been "told what to do."
Which rules? There are rules everywhere in society. What is it that you are so anxious to get free from?
Seems to me the real killer of freedom is addiction - be it alcohol, tobacco, pornography, etc. Been there, done that. That's not freedom.
When I hear people saying how glad they are to be free from the church, I think what they really mean is that they know deep down right from wrong and attending church/being around other members reminds them that they're on the wrong path.
I've yet to attend church and been "told what to do."
Anonymous | 4:32 p.m. Jan. 13, 2009
Can I tour the Draper Temple on Sunday?
Re: Anon | 4:37 p.m. Jan. 13, 2009
Lots of questions about Jesus and what He did/didn't teach about temples.
It has already been said a few times on this board, but making ordinances
(example baptism) are well covered in the NT and OT. Simply because the
specifics are not mentioned in the NT does not mean they did not exist.
Anyone who has attended the temple will recognize the teaching of Jesus and NT/OT prophets.
Baptism for the dead is mentioned in the NT.
Anyone who has attended the temple will recognize the teaching of Jesus and NT/OT prophets.
Baptism for the dead is mentioned in the NT.
An Outsiders View | 4:58 p.m. Jan. 13, 2009
Dear residents of Utah:
Amazed at the number of sad and misguided people represented on these newspaper forums. Never seen so many misguided attempts to tear down another's faith.
The building of a new temple or synagogue or mosque or church is greeted in most places with celebration and congratulations. But, apparently not in Salt Lake City.
There certainly must be a lot of stones in your mountains for people to cast at one another. Shame on those who persist in casting stones and calling names. How utterly childish. Please get a life.
Amazed at the number of sad and misguided people represented on these newspaper forums. Never seen so many misguided attempts to tear down another's faith.
The building of a new temple or synagogue or mosque or church is greeted in most places with celebration and congratulations. But, apparently not in Salt Lake City.
There certainly must be a lot of stones in your mountains for people to cast at one another. Shame on those who persist in casting stones and calling names. How utterly childish. Please get a life.
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On the issue of tithing, that commandment has been around possibly forever. Certainly, the mention of it in Malachi was not an introduction, but a chastisement for not keeping this commandment. So it's clear it was around long before this revelation in the O.T.
BTW, the church/Jesus does not "require" tithing - it is completely voluntary. And I am aware of many (in fact most) other churches who also have tithing, annual commitments, collection plates, etc.
I think the evidence of temples in Jesus' life and ministry is everywhere. If you've ever been to the temple, the connection between His life and teachings and what is taught in the temple is undeniable. Did God not command temples to be built in the OT, BofM and other times? If then, why not now?