Reader comments
Readers' forum: Kids need both mom and dad
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John C. | 2:21 a.m. Nov. 8, 2008
I'm Sorry but this argument has nothing to do with common sense or what is
best for children and society at large. It is about a group of people with
abnormal behavior and wanting the world to call it normal whan there is nothing
normal about it. It is about distroying not building, its about selfesh
satisfaction not whats best for our society.
Hold on for the ride.
Hold on for the ride.
A Teacher | 3:35 a.m. Nov. 8, 2008
I whole heartedly agree. I know that death happens and divorce happens but
everyone still needs a mom and a dad or at least a memory of one.
As a teacher I see the direct effect on students when they don't even have a memory of either a dad or a mom. No matter how privlidged they are, they are angry.
If gay marrige does ever become the norm, be ready for some very very angry kids in our society.
It may take awhile to show up but it will happen/
As a teacher I see the direct effect on students when they don't even have a memory of either a dad or a mom. No matter how privlidged they are, they are angry.
If gay marrige does ever become the norm, be ready for some very very angry kids in our society.
It may take awhile to show up but it will happen/
Comments continue below
GeeBee | 3:50 a.m. Nov. 8, 2008
That's the problem with this state. You're so busy thinking about
what "should be", instead of dealing with what "is"! Sure,
it would be nice if ALL kids had an IDEAL household. But I for one would rather
a child go to a loving home with 2 dads or 2 moms than float around a
foster-care system for 18 years! Give me a break! Does your intolerance know
no end!
Duff | 4:34 a.m. Nov. 8, 2008
Be careful what you wish for. If two parents of opposite sex are
"required" for the effective rearing of children, then some religious
wankers will insist that divorce be illegal.
Red | 6:32 a.m. Nov. 8, 2008
"Children grow up best in the homes of two parents of opposite sexes"
Logically, then, you'd be happy if the State removed all children from single-parent households and placed them with two-parent foster families where they'd "grow up best."
Should a single parent marry, the "two parents of opposite sexes" could petition the State to get the kid(s) back.
After all, if it helps only one child --
Logically, then, you'd be happy if the State removed all children from single-parent households and placed them with two-parent foster families where they'd "grow up best."
Should a single parent marry, the "two parents of opposite sexes" could petition the State to get the kid(s) back.
After all, if it helps only one child --
Robert Oh | 7:43 a.m. Nov. 8, 2008
If that's your reasoning then make it a law that two people need to get a
fertility test before they marry.
I don't really think that is the real way you believe.
Your DESIRE is to keep gay people from marrying, your REASONING is your way to try to convince others to let your do it.
I don't really think that is the real way you believe.
Your DESIRE is to keep gay people from marrying, your REASONING is your way to try to convince others to let your do it.
Glorioski type Zero | 7:47 a.m. Nov. 8, 2008
Look, with a more than 50% divorce rate, children need to be reared in a home
with loving parents male and female, preferably.
Could anyone here give your story growing up with gay parents? We live in a more tolerant age however; introducing your best friend to mom and mom or dad and dad seems to me, at the core there would be some resentment, embarrassment or anxiety.
I would prefer to see children growing up with mommy and daddy who really love each other than with parents who stick it out because of the children. Kids know when mommy and daddy don�t' love each other and that too, will affect them and our society negatively.
Could anyone here give your story growing up with gay parents? We live in a more tolerant age however; introducing your best friend to mom and mom or dad and dad seems to me, at the core there would be some resentment, embarrassment or anxiety.
I would prefer to see children growing up with mommy and daddy who really love each other than with parents who stick it out because of the children. Kids know when mommy and daddy don�t' love each other and that too, will affect them and our society negatively.
Dick | 7:56 a.m. Nov. 8, 2008
1. If marriage is just a method for raising children, why does society allow
marriages for people who are incapable of reproducing?
2. If children who are raised in a home other than with both of their biological parents, why do we allow divorce in cases where there are minor children?
The anti-gay marriage crowd likes to talk about how "sacred" marriage is but our society doesn't treat it as such. Marriages fail at around a 50% rate. That doesn't sound like we value marriages as much as we like to say we do. An LDS man with a temple marriage can have an affair with his secretary, leave his wife and kids for her, and then marry the secretary in the temple just a short time later. Why?
I'm not sure but perhaps a child would be better off being raised by two committed homosexuals than by a mom and step-dad with a bunch of half siblings and being passed back and forth between mulitple families every few days.
Let's face it. Our families today are so messed up that it's hard to fathom how we can say society believes and treats them as sacred.
2. If children who are raised in a home other than with both of their biological parents, why do we allow divorce in cases where there are minor children?
The anti-gay marriage crowd likes to talk about how "sacred" marriage is but our society doesn't treat it as such. Marriages fail at around a 50% rate. That doesn't sound like we value marriages as much as we like to say we do. An LDS man with a temple marriage can have an affair with his secretary, leave his wife and kids for her, and then marry the secretary in the temple just a short time later. Why?
I'm not sure but perhaps a child would be better off being raised by two committed homosexuals than by a mom and step-dad with a bunch of half siblings and being passed back and forth between mulitple families every few days.
Let's face it. Our families today are so messed up that it's hard to fathom how we can say society believes and treats them as sacred.
Anonymous | 8:29 a.m. Nov. 8, 2008
1) This "overwhelming research" does NOT exist.
2) The legalization of gay marriage in Europe has nothing to do with low marriage rates WORLD WIDE. Anyone who has served an LDS mission in the last 10 years can tell you that people EVERYWHERE simply aren't getting married. It has nothing to do with gay marriage.
2) The legalization of gay marriage in Europe has nothing to do with low marriage rates WORLD WIDE. Anyone who has served an LDS mission in the last 10 years can tell you that people EVERYWHERE simply aren't getting married. It has nothing to do with gay marriage.
Anonymous | 8:37 a.m. Nov. 8, 2008
Your warm, fuzzy andy griffithworld does not exist anymore. No one who gets
married should ever do so only to cause children, nor should they be expected to
have them at all. Reality has changed, and your response is to simply
marginalise those that no longer fit the previous 'norm'.
At jackhp | 8:49 a.m. Nov. 8, 2008
Could you cite your references please. BTW the APA is a crock with no well
designed studies of significant power to yield any resonable answers.
Jason | 9:04 a.m. Nov. 8, 2008
Supporters of proposition 8 can continue telling themselves all the reasons for
backing the amendment--like this one: ensuring kids have 2-parent homes. But
the truth is, Proposition 8 had no effect on the ability of gays to adopt, no
effect on their ability to raise their own children. All it did, in fact, was
ensure that gays who do have children CANNOT get married. In other words, some
children will still have gay parents, but those parents won't be entitled
to the protections of marriage. How does this further the writer's
beliefs?
correlation not causation | 9:07 a.m. Nov. 8, 2008
The writer repeats the dubious argument about European allowance of gay marriage
and the decline of marriage in general. This argument is dubious because it
confuses correlation with causation. The truth is, marriage rates began
declining in those countries LONG BEFORE same-sex marriage was permitted. There
is zero evidence suggesting that gay marriage was the cause of or even
contributed to this decline.
Why is your love better? | 9:31 a.m. Nov. 8, 2008
Richard, why do you consider my relationship self-indulgent and yet yours is
not? What's the difference between you choosing to live your life with the
person you love and me doing the same? Why is your expression of love so mucn
more important than mine? My partner and I have been together 25 years, and if
it was only about feeling the "warm fuzzies" it probably would've
ended years ago - like at least 50% of heterosexual marriages do. Some people
seem to feel that Gay men and women marying will end traditional
"straight" marriage when that is something "YOU" are
responsible for - not "US". We're not responsible for the high
divorce rate in this country - you are. Do you honestly believe that if I was
given the right to marry, suddenly it would fall out of fashion with straight
couples? That they would no longer want the tax breaks and legal protections it
provides? If it's all about the children, then it's amazing that this
much effort isn't being put into ways of really bolstering straight
marriages instead of just denying them to others.
Cliff | 10:05 a.m. Nov. 8, 2008
I ave to agree with John C.
This argument is based on false premise, that reproduction is the primary purpose of marriage.
This is of course a premise of LDS doctrine, but it is certainly NOT the case in Europe or among progressive, educated Americans.
This argument is based on false premise, that reproduction is the primary purpose of marriage.
This is of course a premise of LDS doctrine, but it is certainly NOT the case in Europe or among progressive, educated Americans.
RangerGordon | 10:41 a.m. Nov. 8, 2008
What exactly does "smear" mean, and when did it become a magic word
that allows you to dismiss an opposing viewpoint without actually addressing its
issues?
Proposition 8 had nothing to do with protecting any marriage between a man and a woman. Read its language: It was an order for the government to deny marriage licenses to certain couples, based on gender.
Proposition 8 supporters should not fool themselves: All it did was grind California gays and lesbians under the bootheels of meddlesome government.
I suspect many of them are concerned about excessive, intrusive government. But they should not complain when the wolf they themselves unleashed comes howling at their own doors.
Proposition 8 had nothing to do with protecting any marriage between a man and a woman. Read its language: It was an order for the government to deny marriage licenses to certain couples, based on gender.
Proposition 8 supporters should not fool themselves: All it did was grind California gays and lesbians under the bootheels of meddlesome government.
I suspect many of them are concerned about excessive, intrusive government. But they should not complain when the wolf they themselves unleashed comes howling at their own doors.
Too Bad | 10:58 a.m. Nov. 8, 2008
It is unfortunate that when the LDS church exercises its consitutional right of
freedom of expression, those with opposite views get offended. They start
crying about how intolerant the Church is. How pathetic is that!!! Grow up and
realize that the votes were cast and Prop 8 was pasted. Then to single out the
LDS as the only supporter of Prop 8 just proves how INTOLERANT some people are.
The LDS doctrine must be true if everyone is focusing solely on them.
dcc | 11:21 a.m. Nov. 8, 2008
If you want two parent families then proposition your church to make divorce
punishable by excommunication. Until you do that you're just a bigot.
Darin | 11:40 a.m. Nov. 8, 2008
Of all the sham arguments against gay marriage, this one has a veneer so thin I
cannot imagine why everyone cannot see through it.
Single-parent homes and orphans exist because people die, they divorce, and they bear children out of wedlock. Gay marriage is not the reason for single-parent homes, or children without parents. Ugh, can we please stop lying about this? (and the social trends in Europe.)
Single-parent homes and orphans exist because people die, they divorce, and they bear children out of wedlock. Gay marriage is not the reason for single-parent homes, or children without parents. Ugh, can we please stop lying about this? (and the social trends in Europe.)
jackhp | 11:59 a.m. Nov. 8, 2008
To 8:49 am,
So your answer to a request for sources is to request sources? That's pretty lame. BTW, I cited sources, the APA and the AAP. Your opinion that the APA is "a crock" betrays your lack of rationality.
So your answer to a request for sources is to request sources? That's pretty lame. BTW, I cited sources, the APA and the AAP. Your opinion that the APA is "a crock" betrays your lack of rationality.
Mc | 1:35 p.m. Nov. 8, 2008
The Netherlands legalized same-sex marriage in 2001. According to Stanley Kurtz
(Ph.D. in social anthropology , Harvard), "Dutch marriage is in trouble.
Once noted for their low out-of-wedlock birthrates, the Dutch are now
experiencing a striking rupture in the relationship between marriage and
childbearing� The bulk of the change has come in the past
seven years � just as Holland adopted registered
partnerships, and then full and formal same-sex marriage."
"In the past seven years the Dutch out-of-wedlock birthrate has been moving up at the strikingly high rate of two-percentage points per year.�
Kurtz explained the connection with, �Same-sex marriage teaches that individuals ought to be able to craft whatever sort of family they like, and the state should give no special support or encouragement to any one form. If a man wants to marry a man, that's fine. If a man and woman want to have a child without getting married, that's fine too. Family is whatever an individual wants it to be, and the state has no business expressing a preference. So gay marriage encourages parental cohabitation by way of radical individualism.�
Studies in Holland show that acceptance of Gay marriage has diluted the importance of marriage.
"In the past seven years the Dutch out-of-wedlock birthrate has been moving up at the strikingly high rate of two-percentage points per year.�
Kurtz explained the connection with, �Same-sex marriage teaches that individuals ought to be able to craft whatever sort of family they like, and the state should give no special support or encouragement to any one form. If a man wants to marry a man, that's fine. If a man and woman want to have a child without getting married, that's fine too. Family is whatever an individual wants it to be, and the state has no business expressing a preference. So gay marriage encourages parental cohabitation by way of radical individualism.�
Studies in Holland show that acceptance of Gay marriage has diluted the importance of marriage.
Darin | 3:09 p.m. Nov. 8, 2008
Mc,
Well, if Dr.Kurtz' conclusions are correct, I'm a little embarrassed that so many anti-gay-marriage advocates have put so much stock into an "esteemed" institution that turns out to be, well, quite wobbly. Hmm, makes me wonder if gay-marriage advocates shouldn't set their sites on something more solid than marriage as it is in its present condition.
Well, if Dr.Kurtz' conclusions are correct, I'm a little embarrassed that so many anti-gay-marriage advocates have put so much stock into an "esteemed" institution that turns out to be, well, quite wobbly. Hmm, makes me wonder if gay-marriage advocates shouldn't set their sites on something more solid than marriage as it is in its present condition.
mark | 3:18 p.m. Nov. 8, 2008
Jackhp, stop it. I'm telling ya stop it already. You are gonna make some of
these posters heads burst using logic. Nah, on second thought carry on. Heads
burst away.
Gee, I would think that a loving parent, a smart parent, a reasonable parent single, gay, or whatever, would be the key to raising kids.
My dear friends who were raised in two parent households, of opposite sex, where the father beat the good golly gee (that for all you sensitive ones out there, anyone else that lives in the real world, if you want to know what they really beat out of 'em you all give me a call) out of anyone.
The divorce rate in America is about 40%. So what you are saying is that people from 40% of households are not living in ideal situations. Fair enough.
But so what. So what?
Gee, I would think that a loving parent, a smart parent, a reasonable parent single, gay, or whatever, would be the key to raising kids.
My dear friends who were raised in two parent households, of opposite sex, where the father beat the good golly gee (that for all you sensitive ones out there, anyone else that lives in the real world, if you want to know what they really beat out of 'em you all give me a call) out of anyone.
The divorce rate in America is about 40%. So what you are saying is that people from 40% of households are not living in ideal situations. Fair enough.
But so what. So what?
mark | 3:45 p.m. Nov. 8, 2008
So, speaking of logic, Too Bad, you say "The LDS doctrine must be true if
everyone is focusing solely on them."
How in the world do you see the one leading to the other?
How do you figure people criticizing a religion makes the tenets of that religion true?
How in the world do you see the one leading to the other?
How do you figure people criticizing a religion makes the tenets of that religion true?
Utah Dem | 4:23 p.m. Nov. 8, 2008
To jackhp - 2005 - Children from two-parent families are better off emotionally,
socially and economically, according to a review of marriage research released
Tuesday in The Future of Children, a journal published jointly by the
non-partisan Brookings Institution and Princeton University's Woodrow
Wilson School.
Does that help?
Does that help?
No-Win Situation | 7:30 p.m. Nov. 8, 2008
Growing up a ward of the state and never knowing loving parents OR growing up in
a household where sexual sin (homo or hetero, it doesn't matter) is taught
as acceptable, or even good.
The children are the losers in either scenario.
The children are the losers in either scenario.
Randy | 7:52 p.m. Nov. 8, 2008
If someone likes the lifestyle in Europe, or Nigeria, or Papua New Guinea, I
suggest they move there.
Pretending that there's no difference between man and woman, absurd.
Pretending that there's no difference between man and woman, absurd.
mark | 3:07 p.m. Nov. 9, 2008
Hey, no win. It is not a sin.
Randy, of course there is a difference. So?
Randy, of course there is a difference. So?
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Can some please cite some sources for this oft-made, yet rarely supported, claim? The American Psychological Association and the American Academy of Pediatrics have found no systematic difference between children raised by gay parents and those raised by straight parents.