The LDS church has the same amount of tyranny amongst its people when it comes to control & the exercise of power over men.

The leaders elevate themselves to the level of God, such as its doctrine that Joseph Smith has the power to say yea or nay of your salvation, making him at the same level as Christ, so, it's only appropriate that every tyrants, from the beginning of history, will be destroyed and burned to the ground in the same way that the empires of Greece, Rome, Persia, Egypt, many others have all ceased to exist as the powerhouse they once was.

This is all done because those who understands freedom will no longer sit on the sidelines and be abused.

Therefore, the anti-LDS whining as you might call it, actually are the very voices that has refused to accept Romney as the U.S president and come next month, the very voices that will say, enough with the republicans, and enough with tyranny of segregation of the gays.

By the way, it's the same whining the freed America from Great Britain, and freed African Americans from slavery.

You better learn to enjoy the whining, it's staying put.

I tire of people who are wasting space complaining about people complaining. I can't believe the Deseret News just put this online.
Guess what? Mormons aren't the only ones here. And when a large group of people heavily influence a region, people are going to complain about them, whoever that group is. Get over the persecution complex. It will make you feel better.

Amen to that! We all just need to remember the 11th Commandment and adhere to it's message. That is, "Mind you own business."

To Keep on: As a life long member of the LDS Faith I find it interesting the strong use of the word tyranny. Apperintly you eather don't know much about the faith or what the word tyranny means or both, or your just made and can't see straight.
But tyranny suggest we have no freedom of choice when in fact one of the biggest doctorines of the faith is agency. The freedom to choose. We aren't forced to do one thing as a member of the church, I don't have to pay tithing I don't have to accept callings, nothing thats my choice. I don't have to go to church if I don't want to and no one is going to hunt me down and tar and fether me for not doing it. No one is going to call my home and threaten me or stand outside my home with torches to scare me into submission. Thats what tyrants do. Thats what mobs did to us back in Missouri and else where. So how about you get over it.

Jeremy,

I would rather people criticize the LDS Church with words than with billy clubs. I would rather see negative things said about the LDS Church inside the newspaper, than spray painted on my car, or across the front door of my ward building.

Let the critics have their say. Let them express their feelings. If you want to respond to something you feel is untrue or below the belt, go ahead. And if your comments are attacked, don't lose any sleep over it.

Finally, just remember Matthew 5:11 - "Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake."

Don't feel bitter, Jeremy. Look for opportunity instead. The opportunity to understand others, as well as feel grateful to live in a country where freedom of speech is alive and strong.

I totally agree with this writer! It is easy to find fault with an organization, especially if that organization makes me feel uncomfortable about some choices I have made in my life!

1:10 1:13 great examples of your own arrogance and persecution complex hope you feel better

Maybe the church should take the same stance as the Obama campaign in Missouri? Any libel or slanderous comments will be subject to prosecution. That's the way to deal with whiners.....I guess liberals have their own definition of free speech.

when you go around sticking your nose in other peoples business you should not get your nose bent out of shape when they don’t just stand by and take it. The problem seems to be that the LDS church thinks they should be able to voice their opinion and no one should question them, well guess what it does not work that way. Welcome to the world of free thinking, if you do not like it keep it inside the church walls.

The church not only tells us what to do but uses its' extension, the legislature, to do it. Yeah, we're going to keep on 'whining'.

If a church wants to put itself out in the public arena, it's going to take some knocks. By effectively defeating the ERA, and weighing in on the gay marriage debate, the LDS church has chosen to mix it up with the big boys. If they weren't so aggressive in proselytizing and influencing public policy they wouldn't get so much criticism. I'm not saying they are right, or wrong, just pointing out why they get so much flack. When's the last time you heard someone bash a Quaker?

I agree with you Jeremy. The incessant, infantile name-calling and general whiny complaints can be quite annoying. But I think you need to remember we live in an area that makes it a special case.

I think it is partly a factor of there being so many former LDS people here who, if only as an inadvertent attempt at resocialization, tend to side with other kinds of anti-LDS critics. The combination of the famous “disgruntled former employee” syndrome and the perennial anti-LDS bigotry forms a pretty potent and self-regenerating mixture of hate that inevitably leads to the narrowly focused and obsessive criticism.

It’s just the nature of human nature and is exacerbated by regional proximity.

Bro. Roberts,
Why not just put a targtet on your chest? You complain about whining, but you invite that very thing with your attitude, to the frustration of all the rest of us who learned a long time ago that enough whining will come without seeking it out. Give it a rest and live your life.

Jeremy, I could tell you what my Mormon High Priest neighbor tells me – "If you don't like the way it is or how you're treated here, you always have the option of leaving."

But, I would never tell someone something like that.

I will say that when an organization helps create conflict and divisiveness within a community, you can't expect to not have people upset about it and make comments.

I wonder if you and Jeremy are able to use some of that logic to reflect back on the behaviors of church members and the way they react to people outside your church. I am not trying to excuse people outside your churches behaviors but I think this is a very large two way street with plenty of blame and responsibility to go around.

what’s aggravating is that the LDS church seems to think it is alright to stick their nose in other peoples business then get upset when people do not react with silent compliance to their wishes and then they try to play the victim. Sorry but you are not victims you are aggressors.

If the LDS church would stick to religion and stay out of politics we would have less to whine about.

Do you think people complain just to hear themselves speak? Complaints, valid or not, happen for a reason.

You guys who love free speech so much want to suppress the Church's right to the same. What kind of a church would it be if it refused to take a stand on moral issues? So in your compartmentalized thinking, the church can only give guidance on Sunday and in a chapel?

I've lived in Utah as non LDS for 21 years and thanks to the LDS church can't think of a place I'd rather live. St. George is a beautiful, orderly and law abiding community. The problem is that because of its success, it attracts others with opposing values that set about immediately upon arrival to whining. If LDS have idiosyncrasies, there is one I truly respect: They try hard, very hard to always do the right thing.

Why don't people just do what they want to do... And let Mormons do what they want to do???

If YOU want to protest or talk to people in opposition to the ammendment, just do it! But don't assume you have some right the Mormon's don't have. They also have the right to protest, make signs, talk to people, etc, in favor of the ammendment.

Many people who complain about Mormons getting politically involved are the same people who praise people for breaking windows, hurting people on the street, etc, in protests at the GOP convention.

Why do these people think protesting and getting politically involved, even to the point of being militant is OK for some... But Mormons just have to sit on their hands and be silent and not get involved in politics, current events, etc?

Where to do people get the idea that Mormons somehow don't have the same rights to be politically active that you have???

What a hypocritical stand to try to take!

And the church doesn't have to tell it's members what to do. We're-not-as-stupid-as-you-think. I personally have never been contacted by anyone in the church and told what to do politically. That's-a-myth.

"Many people who complain about Mormons getting politically involved are the same people who praise people for breaking windows, hurting people on the street, etc, in protests at the GOP convention."

Do you have the facts to support this statement or is it just something you made up?

As a non-mormon native of SLC, I sometimes get a little weary of the church's power.

However, overall, I think the church contributes to a high quality of life in the state. I have many mormon friends and many non-mormon friends. Utah is a GREAT place to live!!!

Cheers!

I like Rex's attitude. The world would be better if more people looked for the good in others and in their situations.

I've lived in CA, FL, UT, OR, and NV, and guess what I've discovered? Wherever you live, there will be groups of people with different viewpoints than your own. You will be miserable if you dwell on it and let it be a wedge between you and others and you will be much happier if you reach out to those who differ from you and see what you have in common.

Funny. Almost no one addressed what Jeremy said. I don't think he's bitter or suffers from a victim complex. I think he's pointing out that people who don't want to be told what to do often have the habit of telling others what to do. And, what's even more interesting is how many of these reader comments include telling someone what to do.

Wrex - Thanks for your well thought out intelligent comment. I would love to have someone like you for a neighbor any day.

And as for those throwing mud, just remember that attitude is everything. You can either exhaust your energy being angry all day, or you can find the good in people different from yourself.

I like living in Utah with all of the Mormons, Everything is less crowded on Sunday.

My claim that the same people who think Mormons don't have a right to protest or get politically involved are the same people who supported and applauded the protests at the GOP convention arn't made up. I read these postings daily and notice the general positions specific outspoken posters are taking, and some of the monikers used by the posters who supported the GOP protests are the same monikers that put down Mormons for getting politically involved. It's just an observation.

These same people (unless they are taking other's monikers) think one group has the right to be politically involved and that protests are good, but put down the Mormons who are getting involved in the political process. The same posters! I can name a few if you like.

If there weren't so many smug, condescending members of the majority then there would not be so much criticism JMO.

Democracy is as much about protecting the rights of the minority as it is implementing the will of the majority.

Protesting and looting or valdalizing are two different things. If they were cheering for the vandals, it would be totally un-American. If they were agreeing with the protesters, that is different. Please try and separate the two.

Yes, they can say that protests are good and then say that Mormons who are involved politically in Prop 8 are un-American. It is called "free speech" and you are guarenteed it and so are they.

But to claim that they were supporting the looters and vandals might be a stretch.

I think there are some other issues that most commentators have ignored.

I did not get the sense that Jeremy had issues neccasariy with people who say "The Church should not take a stand on X". At least I don't. I think the church has a right to take a stand wherever it wants to. However people have the right to complain about such a stand.

What I do not like is the people who then go on to make negative statements about the church where ever they can.

I also object to the people who post comments like "This is not news" on reports of talks or anouncements of temples on LDS Newsline.

LDS Newsline exists to give information about the church to church members. If you do not want to read about the church, just do not read LDS newsline. No one is forcing you to read anything, so if you don't like the articles in the Deseret News, there are other papers that may have articles that you would like.

If all you can do is complain about articles being about Mormon things to often, than maybe you need to find a different paper.

I think the point is (from a non Mormon point of view) is the church should teach and lead it's people anyway they want but then outside of the church's walls, let the people follow their own heart (agency). In the case of Prop 8 it is my understanding the church took an official position and broadcast that position to its membership and requested action in support of its position. That (in my non Mo POV) is crossing the line. If you want to teach homosexuality is wrong in the eyes of God it is your right. But then God can pass judgement. It is not your right as a collective body to impose your beliefs on greater society. Remeber you are a minority. If its okay for you to pass laws treating gays different then what about atheists and agnostics, or just non-Christians passing laws to treat Christians differently?

Both sides have the right and ability to raise the din of contention to unbearable levels. Is that the kind of world we want to live in? Or might it be better to mind our own businesses and live and let live?

Every person in the United States, of every faith, has a right to voice their opinion and be politically active and support causes they feel are important (like this constitutional ammendment).

Talking about playing the victim!

All they are doing is being good American citizens and getting involved in their own government. You shouldn't castigate them and accuse them of being "Agressors" just for doing what EVERY American should be doing (being involed in making their voice heard in their political representation and legislation that will be used to govern them).

DON'T assume just because someone is Mormon, they have no right to have an opinion, to voice that opinion, to try to convince others to share their opinion and to influence their leaders and their neighbors to help enact laws that are in line with their beliefs.

Every American and every group of Americans has a right to voice their opinion (and should be involved in their government). Why is it such a shame to many of you when Mormons do it? Other groups oppose the gay lifestyle more vigerously than Mormons. Why are you not harping on them too???

The big kid on the block gets blamed for all the problems (US government, Catholic church in other countries etc...) so it's just part of being the biggest target. New face, same game, people whine regardless of the location or the who they percieve as being the devil/source of all problems/persecutor etc...

It's just human nature to want need/want something to complain to or about.

Jeremy:

While it may be a little frustrating to hear others complain so much about the LDS Church, keep in mind that there is no such thing as negative publicity.

Pay attention to the words of the LDS Church Public Affairs office. You will find that they have learned, whenever the Church has come under fire, whether for taking a stand on a moral issue, or because of an historical event, or because some prominent person makes public the circumstances of a disciplinary council, positive interest in the church is always the end result.

In fact the Church has statistics to show a direct correlation between negative publicity and conversions. You see, most people know someone who is LDS, and have been impressed by their example. So, when they hear the negative comments, they become curious enough to seek the truth.

Take the example of the Public Relations office when they say "Bring it on." So, be a duck, and let the negative comments roll off your back. Quack, quack!!

so you state "Other groups oppose the gay lifestyle more vigerously than Mormons. Why are you not harping on them too???" did you happen to catch the letter for this thread or at least its title? we are talking about the LDS church because that is what the letter was about, once again if you are a victim of anything its your own aggression.

I am going to do something that I never thought would happen and that is agree with "John Pack Lambert." I think the LDS church has every right to express their opinions on public matters, I have the right to vocally disagree with their position and challenge that position, but there is no need for people to get nasty with each other and disparage each other the way they often do on these threads (yes both sides of the debate do it). I think this letter does nothing to help the conversation and frankly most of the comments from both sides do not either. I will no longer be posting on this thread as I do not want to be part of the problem. Thanks John you have given me back some sense of hope for a more civil discourse which our society needs on many issues not just prop 8.

Wasn't conference just 2 weeks ago and the members of the church were encouraged to "avoid pride, seek unity, defend their faith with love, serve others....not lose sight of what's important." I don't mean to criticize but the author of this letter needs to go back and review his notes. Leaders of the church have asked it's members to refrain from this type of talk. Live what you'r preached and you'll be happier.

if your sick of the whining then stop whining and playing the victim. you are not victims!

I was hoping for a dialogue. Several have posted that "Mormons have right to free speech too". But the point isn't that mormons can't speak up and that the church can't teach its principles, the point is the church should not as an institution instruct its members how to vote. Which, with this proposition, is my understanding what they did.

I'm not claiming to be a victim of anything. I don't feel victimised in this discussion at all. That's your game. Remember, I'm the Aggressor victimising you. How can you accuse me of being both the aggressor and the victim at the same time?

I just asked why all the angst over Mormons having opinions on this topic and voicing them. I can see how you would see that as a victim mentality. I really didn't mean it that way. I was just trying to understand where people are comming from. You answered my question and that's more than most posters do here, so I appreciate that.

As you pointed out, the origin of the thread was, "People whining about Mormons", specifically Mormons having opinions on gay marriage and voicing them. Your reason for focusing on Mormons exclusively sounds good to me.

"Too@agressors" you know i read back over my past comments and some comments from others including John Lambert and tanks John. I feel I owe you sincere apology I think my frustration got the best of me. I think the LDS church has every right to voice their opinion as do I but there was no need for me to be so rude. Sometimes I get caught up in the emotions like many here probably do any I am sorry and wish you well!

To the 2:37 commentator,

You miss the point that there is more hate against the LDS CHurch than other groups.

When Elder Jensen comes out and calls for compasion in the deabte on immigration reform, there is no limit to the negative and demaning attacks on him.

When the bishop of the Catholic diocese in Utah comes out with much more bold statements in favor of the undocumented immigrant, there is less vitriol and hate. Although it may partly be because the Deseret News censors vitriol against non-LDS religious leaders more because they do not want to be accused of being anti-Catholic, I think there are other issues.

Some people even turn the form on the Catholic Bishops statement in to a chance to denounce the LDS Church for having had the audacity of suggesting that in taking about immigration we are talking about actions that will effect living, breathing human beings, who have feelings, needs and all other human demands.

The supper scary thing is that I am accurately reporting Elder Jensen's comments and people's reaction to them.

Some people claim they do not like the church making statements on what they should do. Well, if they have no intention of following the teachings of leaders of the church and hate whenever church leaders bring up anything, they can just not read articles on statements made by church leaders.

Their exposure to these teachings of the church is a direct result of making the choice to read the article that is about a talk a church leader gave or something along similar lines. If they don't want to know about what the leaders of the church teach, than don't read the article. No one is forcing you to read the article.

wow John you are quite the little prolific poster. I agree that the LDS "church" has a right to make statements, however I take exception to your assertion that people that do not want to be exposed to the LDS churches positions should just not read the articles talking about them. There are certainly people that go looking for articles for the purpose of looking to pick a fight.
However when the LDS church takes a public stand on an issue then it gets a lot more complicated then "if they have no intention of following the teachings of leaders of the church and hate whenever church leaders bring up anything, they can just not read articles on statements made by church leaders." because the LDS churches position becomes part of the civil discourse and to have an informed opinion I think it is important to understand the other sides position by reading it first hand rather then rely on their surrogates.
I realize it is a small point of contention but I thought it was worth airing.

To the 7:33 poster,

You misuse the term civil discourse. There has been nothing civil in the tone or actions of the opponants of Proposition 8. They mock, denigrate and show unlimited disrespect.

However, you also misunderstand my statements. I never said that people commenting on the church position on moral issues as they go into the public arena are out of line.

What I had in mind here is the people who make rude and snyde comments about reports on talks given by church leaders, presentations given at BYU or the anouncement of new temples.

Also I take exception to your statement that people are trying to form an informed opinion.

Many of the people who contribute this unending stream of hate and vitriol which makes the truly worthwhile and informative comment so rare and have driven off many of the people who would make such comments from the Deseret News boards are trolls.

I wil define trolls. They are a species of people who live on the internet and spend their time trying to provoke argument and discord. They actually have universal hate. It is hard to imagine they are real people. More to come.

Jeremy Roberts. It's the NEWSPAPER (not the writers) that decide to "waste the space". Nobody is forcing the newspaper to print what the writers send in).

The troll is in theory a real person, but most have probably adopted a different identity on line to gain their desired results of argument and frustrating others.

Some people attacked Elder Hales statement that at times you should not give an answer. The fact that this was based on Jesus' interaction with Herod evidenctly did not mean it had a reputable scriptural base. Some of the attacks people give remind me of attacks that were thrown against Jesus healing on the Sabbath.

However, if Elder Hales was down with internet lingo he might have said "Do not feed the trolls". Of course, there are a lot of other issues involved. This is still a limited internet term and as such may not be easily translated. There is also the fact that the way Elder Hales gave his talk, I take away "Do not feed the trolls", while others think in terms of "Do not bible bash" and there are other cases both on line, in person and in other types of interaction that come up.

John, just because you do not think people are being civil does not mean I did not use the term properly. Civil discourse means discourse that takes place in the civic arena.
As to your belief that people are not looking to become informed, please do not project your desire to not make an informed discussion onto others, some people are interested in having a non “vitriol” discussions.
Unfortunately it has become clear from your last post to me that you are not willing to do so. Just a question to ask yourself before I go, how is calling people trolls not engaging in the same behaviors you claim to deplore?
Just food for thought, have a nice night.