the story's been posted. Now let the flood of hatred and bigotry flow freely onto the Dnews board. But at least before it begins, I can label it for what it really is, in spite of all the lame protestations and thinly veiled arguments that it's not about hatred, it's about "the law."
Let's hear it haters.

Certainly individuals should have the right to migrate, as long as they do so lawfully. I am not ready to throw out the penalties for identity theft and fraud.

While there are definitely God-fearing, church attending humble people mixed in with the illegal aliens, there are also plenty of hardened criminals who are constantly being arrested for drugs, DUI, sexual deviance and murder. Is it O.K. if we still use the term "criminal" to define these people?

There was a time when Bank of America, Wells Fargo and Zions bank proudly proclaimed that they had created loan programs specifically to enable illegal aliens to get a loan.

I saw a report from HUD last week which indicated that there are over 5 Million fraudulent home loans held by illegal aliens. I wonder how many of these are contributing to the current financial/credit mess? A lot of these banks are using their ill-gotten gain to buy up other entities. Perhaps they should be forced to pay a penalty for their past behavior and have to buy back a lot of these loans.

Perhaps Bishop Wester would agree to sponsor these people and let them live in his home? 10 or 20 million more would be ideal. If the Mormon and Catholic churches want illegals here let them pay for them. Utah is having difficultly paying for them all. They are laying off Law Enforcement and State Workers. Our Federal Government is 10 Trillon in debt. Look at Emergency rooms, Jails and Schools. Any of us would do the same thing to escape poverty. Many are Excellent people But if we absorb a third World country we will become that country people are trying escape.

The huge numbers of immigrants have been an economic and social disaster for most of this country, no matter what Bishop Broadcloth says. We have good laws and they need to be enforced. The majority of violent crimes, foreclosures, and other negative situations where I live directly involve foreigners. Now that they are leaving in numbers due to the economy things are noticeably better hereabouts.

The Chaffetz supporters and their tent cities will no doubt flood the posts.

I am so tired of hearing and seeing things from those people. Bushop Wester and the leaders in the LDS Church agree on this one - compassion. That doesn't mean we put children in tents while they wait deportation.

Thanks Chaffetz for marginalizing us and making Utah look as if it's a state full of bigots!

By compassion do you mean there should actually be more social programs designed to take money from hard working Americans and redistributing it to these poor, suffering illegal immigrants? Do you mean actually changing our language to Spanish, rather than just forcing all government agencies to operate in 2 languages? Perhaps we should just hand over our country and re-name it the United States of Mexico. Normally, I'm a very compassionate person, but my wallet just can't handle any more of what you consider to be compassion Bishop Wester. If anything, now is the time to think about America first and stop all this nonsense.

Word of the week:
Scapegoat.

Too bad the LDS leaders could not come up with compassionate programs for the destitute and abandoned and tackle issues like these.Something like this is needed at General Conference. Oh well maybe another year another conference we will catch up with those who really the know and understand the aches and pains of Gods children and real concerns in the community

The catholic church has such a stellar record of compassion ( inquisition, crusades ect.} that the illegal alien issue is really a none issue. Better to uphold the law and try to polish our tarnished record than blunder into another historical nightmare.

Would "Bshop" Wester kindly explain from whose mind this "right to migrate" came from? Especially when that right only involves the United States as the destination? Certainly I cannot "mnigrate" to any other nation without certain requirements being placed on me by the other nation nor would I even consider doing so. If the Catholics are so in favor of migration,let them approve migration to the Vatican. Fat chance.

Further, the Catholics place too much effort in migrating to the United States. It is the simpletons way of improving the life of others. Better they concentrate their efforts in each nation to improve the lot of their adherents IN PLACE! Nope. Too difficult to root out political corruption and correct long standing abuses. The cowards way -- just yowl the only solution is to immigrate to the United States. Just another reason I am not Catholic.

If you wonder, I am the son of a LEGAL immigrant thru Galveston,Texas whose family did not believe they had an automatic right to migrate. They went thru all the legal steps to accomplish their goal. I am proud of them and the accomplishments of their descendents.

There is nothing wrong with our laws when enforced. There is something wrong when groups try to shift the blame from the individual breaking the law.

Hordes and compassion are catch words for enforcement and non-enforcement of current laws.

Law enforcement officers are taught to use compassion whenever they encounter lawbreakers. To twist the enforcement of laws into anything other than law enforcement is wrong.

Always a balancing act.

Enact and enforce effective laws, including laws regarding immigration, OR become a lawless, chaotic society that eventually so closely resembles the places the current illegal immigrants are desperately struggling to escape that they lose the incentive to come here.

Hmmm. What to do?

For what it's worth, I agree that like so much of the government, the immigration laws and angencies are a ridiculous mess and need urgent reform. For that, we can thank ourselves for electing too many ineffective, if not downright corrupt legislators.

Clean up the system that makes the laws and we will get better, more effective and even more "compassionate" laws. In the meantime, we must enforce the laws we have or things will certainly get even worse.

I agree with the Bishop. I deal with hispanic people everyday. The vast majority are hardworking people with family values. All the laws and fences in the world won't stop illegal immigration. The problem is an economic. Mexico is a third world country with a corrupt government. Until that changes the problem will continue. Deportation of illegal immigrants will result in a massive labor shortage with millions of unskilled and semi-jobs left unfilled. Americans will never fill these jobs because it is beneath their dignity.

as an immigrant I had to have a "sponsor" so as to not expect tax payers aid. I had to speak english and even be fingerprinted. I am a legal immigrant and therefore feel the illegals do not warrant my sympathies etc. Let the Catholic leader and the Mormon leaders support their illegal membership. Why not help build their country oops Mexico is rich but does not share the wealth and gains from the illegals in America -- sorry do it right and I'm all for supporting a "legal immigrant" Utahns hold many children responsible for their parents actions but oh they are already Americans so it does not matter how we treat them

I'm a conservative christian Mormon who says AMEN to the words of the good Bishop. All town hall meetings I've attended on immigration end up degrading into nothing but outright biggotry. While most immigrants I've met (legal or otherwise) are honest, hardworking, God fearing people.

Those who beat the drums oposing only "illegal" immigration are demonstrating their ignorance. Either by not understanding what a mess our immigration laws have become or by being afraid of anyone who is different then they are.

DD,
40% of the subprimes, the figure from latino news sites.

Tht wasn't the point. The point is we do need to fix legal immigration. We also can Not have those that come here without permission end up becoming citizens before those that are following the current laws. To do so, you reward breaking the law and encourage more. It shouldn't take 22 years to immigrate. I would like to see that come down below 2 years.

This really needs to be fixed at the national level. One of the reasons I am voting for Jason Chaffetz.

If we don't handle the immigration in Utah, then we will end up exactly in the same boat whose welfare, health and educational systems or so overrun and pressured by illegal immigrants that they need $70 billion dollars to bail them out. We cannot, as Utahns, support those who will not even be bothered to obey our laws, both state and federal. This immigration bill doesn't go far enough, but at least it allows current laws to be enforced.

Apparently my comments made to sense since it was never posted

I wonder if the 'disconnect between the leaders and the people' that was being discussed is that the people wanted something better than SB81. Instead, we got some watered down bill that is pretty much worthless. Maybe the legislature can get it right this session, or at least try.

My long-time associate, Inspector Javert, would whole-heartedly approve of the way we treat illegal immigrants. The law, after all, must be upheld, regardless of the cost in human misery.

You should go to church more often, if you even are a member of the church.

I'm quite familiar with the LDS Church's welfare program, and to say there are no "compassionate programs for the destitute and abandoned" is simply false.

If anything, the Church has been guilty of turning a blind eye to the law in an effort to help illegal aliens with their basic needs.

Mexico has the 15th largest economy in the world.

Since when did enforcing the laws become a compassion issue?

It's time to let go of blaming the laws for breaking up families. Children are a parents responsibility and the Church should be teaching this. Keeping a family together is the responsibility of the family. This is what the Churches should be teaching.

The United States has some of the most compassionate immigration laws in the world. The Churches time would be better spent calling out Mexico for putting illegals in jail for 10 years. (they have an immigration problem also)

Bishop, please consider the consequences of your teachings. You are telling people it's OK to break the law because the law is bad. You are creating a breeding ground for an entire generation of children who will have no respect for the laws of the land.

I cry for those who have had their identities stolen, I cry for those who cannot feed their families because of unfair competition from lawbreakers, I cry for the legal citizens who have no voice in the Catholic Church.

I feel for the aliens that come here, I do. Then there is a thing called "THE LAWS OF THE LAND", and these cannot be ignored. The fact is no matter how nice and good natured these people may be, they are BREAKING THE LAW! If you don't want pets on your lawn, and your neighbors dogs keep jumping the fence, even though they are great dogs, and they urinate on your lawn it's going to get spotted! Isn't it going to get aggravating, even though you may love the dogs themselves, they are doing something you don't want them to do. Something would get worked out eventually, you wouldn't just allow it would you? Eventually you would have no lawn at all, it would be all dead because you had a fence (Law), it was just being ignored, and your yard would rot from within! SOMETHING HAS TO BE DONE, no matter how MEAN it may sound, it cannot go on! I feel bad for these people, I do, but I feel worse for the ones here legally who are victims of racism and prejudice because of the ones here wrongly that bring this on.

To Neil (7:26am) and James in St. George (7:30am) - AMEN. I too work closely with Hispanics, both legal and undocumented. They are by far wonderful, God fearing people who are trying to make the best of a very bad situation, both here and in their home country. Many could easily get refugee status considering the wars in their home countries (including Mexico's internal war). They could use much more of our love, support and compassion. "When ye are in the service of your fellow men..."

INMIGRATION LAW IS A DISASTER, FOR THOSE WOHO WANT TO BECOME UA CITIZENS AND FOR THOSE WHO WANT TO COME AND WORK HERE!!!

You let the real criminals come from middle east just because they come with money, but always talk about the Mexicans and people from latin america...BUT you forgot the "WHITE ONES" that come from Canada and Europe...and you dont say anything because their skin color.

For a farmer in Mexico, how they can apply for visa if they dont have money enough to feed their families?

Goberments should work together in this issue.

Another thing...Im sure you are really scare because "these" people are getting better jobs and not cleaning you toillet or making hamburgers in mcdonalds!!! WE need them and they need US.

Also you should remember about those jobs that "white" people dont like to take and they do!!!

Here are a few facts:
1. Illegal aliens have killed more Americans since 911 than have died in the war in Iraq.
2. An over supply of unskilled labor has really hurt the wages of American's unskilled workers.
3. Illegal aliens cost the USA approx. $388 billion (yes, with a 'B') each year.
4. I can't think of a more miserable job than pumping and repairing septic tanks. Most people who do this are owner operators and native born Americans. They make good money. There is not a job in American that Americans will not do if the money is right.
5. A significant portion of illegal drugs in the USA come through illegal aliens.

We have immigration laws for a reason. We must enforce them. We must take the bait away. Those who employ illegal aliens must be punished.

Why is it hatred to tell the truth about illegal immigration?

It has long been know that a liberals prefered military strategy is premptive surrender.

Now we see the premptive name calling.

Down here on the border, we live with illegal immigration every day. Wrecks on the highway caused by crazy coyotero drivers hauling twice or three times the people a vehicle should hold--and people killed in the wrecks. Drug running--that's one way to pay the coyotero for your passage. Criminals coming thru in droves. Illegals kidnapped, beaten and held for ransom by the smugglers. It's a MESS! We only have ONE hospital with a trauma unit in all of southern AZ now--due to the expense of treating the illegals who don't pay. Only one hospital here that delivers babies because they can't absorb the cost of all those free deliveries to illegals, or people who come across the border to deliver "anchor" babies. Our welfare system is broke serving citizens of another nation--and Mexico is NOT a poor nation--it's a poorly governed nation. Lots of resources held by a few.
We desperately need immigration reform--FIRST OFF: a sensible way for decent, law-abiding, self-supporting people to come legally. SECOND: no citizen's benefits for non-citizens.
If the intelligent, hard-working, and innovative people who come here from Mexico stayed in Mexico and demanded the needed reforms, Mexico would change for the better!

Chaffetz could be arrested for a crime and Arc would explain that this is why hes voting for 'Jason Chaffetz.'

While we need thoughtful reform we get no such thought from Jason Chaffetz. He has gone from tents with razors in the desert, to deport'em all with his half-brained "Pathway to Deportation" visa, to now he supports Guest Worker visas.

In the mean time he has got his supporters to reved up that once again any chance of a meaningful discussion in Utah is almost zero.

Please moderators, you allow Arc to run his pro-Chaffetz propaganda at the drop of the hat, allow observations and opinions on both sides. You have a very mediocre record on this.

We need reforms to our immigration system. And it does not include tents in the desert with razor wire.

We don't need law breakers in the USA who bring drugs, murder and all other kinds of chaos to our country.

"ok | 12:19 a.m. Oct. 13, 2008
the story's been posted. Now let the flood of hatred and bigotry flow freely onto the Dnews board. But at least before it begins, I can label it for what it really is, in spite of all the lame protestations and thinly veiled arguments that it's not about hatred, it's about "the law."
Let's hear it haters."

ok,
THANK YOU SO MUCH. You are awesome and summed things up better than anyone I have seen yet.

Can we all please quit crying for illegal immigrants and take a look at the real cost of their lawbreaking to the average American? Lost jobs, lower wages, higher taxes, states like CA that are now bankrupt trying to pay for their health care and education, these are but a few of the problems they have caused. Now about 5 million of them are contributing to the foreclosure problem on top of it all to say nothing about the 25 Americans they kill every day. The Bishop needs to move to Mexico where his sympathies lie.

We have our own thugs at Wall Street. Those guys are professional thieves in pin striped suits and Harvard MBAs. Who needs immigrants to do our dirt work?

It was not until following the Mexican-American war of 1848, that the Mexican territories of Alta California and Santa Fé de Nuevo México ceded to the United States to become modern-day California, Texas, New Mexico, Utah, Colorado and Arizona (Texas actually split from Mexico several years earlier to become a breakaway republic, and was voluntarily annexed by the U.S. in 1846. So, from the perspective of many Mexicans, Americans stole their land and talk about the "rule of law" and respect for borders seems nothing more than a front for military might. Perhaps, illegal immigration could be viewed as a quieter and more peaceful (albeit, less efficient) method of land reclamation!

The point? Before Americans speak in sanctimonious terms about "enforcing the law," we should remember that defining who is an "illegal immigrant" depends more on which country at the time bears the most military muscle than it does on legal platitudes.

Conclusion: a dose of history and humility would be helpful in viewing these issues.

A big thanks to Bishop Wester for voicing a compassionate plan for much needed reform, while also extending love to all men!

Nothing wrong with the laws as they are now. They set a specific number each year to come to the United States. (This number takes into account the jobless rate etc, so as to not dilute the labor force. In good times when there are many jobs, wages go up, when times are bad and jobs are hard to find wages become stagnant or go down. The quotas each year are set to not upset the economic balance. Every country does it to protect their workers.)

Each country can not represent over 7% of the total. This assures that everyone gets a fair chance. There are many more people from other areas of the world that are much worse off than our neighbors to the south.

Now here's the problem, we can't let more people in, because the illegals are taking the quota space of possible legal immigrants. Thus the problem with our immigration law is poor enforcement. If the Bishop wants to fix the laws, he needs to tell the people to go home, and come back according to the laws of the land.

Bishop, what is the Catholic Churches position on Mexico's laws?

I think there is one extremely important fact we must keep in mind whenever we discuss immigration, and more specifcally, border security. 70% of all illegal narcotics in the country cross our SOUTHERN border. Think about it and then act responsibly when comsidering immigration policies to support.

Compassion is great if we can afford it. Our health care system is overloaded with illegal immigrants as in California, Texas and Florida, and we cannot afford care for legal immigrants and US citizens. Raise taxes, be compassionate, open the borders and let's provide health care for the entire world. The churches have not addressed this issue.

I was listening to Bob Lonsberry the other day on the radio, he always talks about how the law needs to be enforced, expecially when it comes to immigration.

He admitted that he was broadcasting from a cell phone at the time, and that this was illegal in New York where he lives.

I guess, for immigrants its not okay to break the law to support their families, but for Bob Lonsberry it is.

Comparing the illegal immigrant who broke a dozen laws entering and residing in Utah, and who stole my identity, printed and passed phony checks for hundreds of dollars to Bob Lonsberry’s cell phone usage makes you a nutcase.

DD | 1:32 a.m.: "Certainly individuals should have the right to migrate, as long as they do so lawfully."

Individuals don't have the right to migrate to another sovereign country.

Study your history a little more deeply. Mexico's claim to California, AZ, New Mexico, Texas, etc, is based on SPANISH exploration. Since Mexico kicked the Spanish out, how can what the Spanish did give Mexico a claim to anything? That's point number one.
Point number two is that the United States PAID Mexico for the territories they annexed. I don't think you can find another case in the history of the world where the winner of a war paid the loser for territory absorbed.
There were very few "Mexicans" living in what became the U.S. Most of them were actually of Spanish descent. The rest were Native Americans--native to the localities where they lived, not immigrants from Spain via Mexico.
And I should tell you that my husband is Hispanic--his grandmother was born in Mexico and came here legally. Some of my ancestors are Spanish and came here in the early 1700's.

None of this history makes much difference in illegal immigration. Mexicans who want to immigrate to the US need to follow the same rules as everyone else--no criminals, healthy, have a sponsor, have a job. Then they'd certainly be very welcome.

When it comes to the 'doublde standard' of breaking laws this is a big issue.

Consider: What if Barak Obama, Nancy Pelosi and Harry Reid passed legislation that gave America a Chicago style gun control law? What if they passed a law that required all of us to register our hand guns with a new government agency?

How many of us would do so?

As for me and my house "from my cold, dead fingers!"

So obviously we must consider the law, not just blind obedience to it. The history of America is a history of bad laws, citizen "illegal" action relative to those bad laws, and finally changing those bad laws via the process established in the US Constitution through Congress, or local actions.

Right now we have bad immigration laws. Almost everyone agrees. Thus the Catholic Church's statement is wise.

Now the question is what manner do we change the laws?

-Secure border.
-Verify identification though DON'T create a national ID card.
-Thoughtful guest worker visa.
-Citizenship process NOT changed.
-No tents in the deserts or knucklehead who proposed them.
-Those already here CAN apply as Guest Workers once return home.
-Local assistance in enforcement.

Americans, as a culture, are OVERLY GENEROUS with their compassion. Thats what's got us into the mess that we have. By looking the other way as all these illegals have taken jobs (and sent the money out of the country)we have dug ourselves a financial hole that we, as Americans, are trying to get out of. Since the problem of illegals has gotten so out of control, we have had to close hospitals, pay more for our healthcare, etc. I hope those who think its o.k. for all of them to be here, have some living next door to them so they can support them directly without having ALL of us pitch in!
The American people have said in no uncertain terms that they don't want to foot the bill for them, but SOME individuals seem to keep ramming the issue down our throats! One of the BIG reasons Chris Cannon isn't returning to Congress is due to his position on this issue. How many times do the people have to say NO before they get it?

This country is in trouble!

Where does this "right" come from? Who gave anyone that "right"? It isn't anywhere in any of the documents we use to govern; the Constitution, the Bill of Rights, the Declaration of Independence, any of the laws of the land....so where did this "Right" come from? Show me!

Yes, we are a nation of immigrants WHO FOLLOWED THE LAWS AS THEY THEN EXISTED when they came here, or they got turned around at Ellis Island or any of the other entry points around the nation. This point must be included in any discussion of "we are a nation of immigrants".......

I don't think anyone cares if people come here legally. It's the ones who lie, steal and break American laws to get here who are NOT WELCOME!

The churches of the USA, need more converts, to gain more money, to build all their churches, and so they welcome all the illegals. It's called church and crime.

This is where we need to start the discussion about immigration, by changing the present laws to more humanely treat our poor neighbors from the south. Not by building fences, not by raiding workshops. First consider the humanity, and help our poor neighbors from the south.

Provide education, provide basic health care, to the poor among us. WE CAN AFFORD TO HELP! Of course the country of Mexico needs to be involved, so the US and border states need to help the country of Mexico. But no more fences. No more racial hatred.

Here's the rub. They aren't illegal immigrants. We invited them here. Shrub made it clear at the beginning of his presidency that he wouldn't enforce the law because the folks from south of the border were just "doing jobs American's wouldn't" and (the Dems went right along because they like the extra votes) The "immigration issue" is easy to clean up, make companies pay for hiring illegals but nobody is willing to do that because important constituents are getting rich, gaining control of the gov and replacing American workers, who tend to want such awful things as health care, holidays and vacation, with folks who are just willing to work for whatever they can get. That's called free enterprise - free because the middle class is paying for the cost of someone else's enterprise.