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MormonTimes.com: DNA may help family research, but it won't prove or disprove Book of Mormon
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problem | 6:57 a.m. Aug. 25, 2008
DNA Lady has it partly correct. The BOM has been pushed and sold as literal
truth. But the durn scientists showed up with their DNA accuracy and blew it
out of the water. So the next logical step of the true believer is to say it is
figurative.
Tim | 7:07 a.m. Aug. 25, 2008
DNA may not prove the BofM but it certainly adds to a long list of collective
evidence.
Comments continue below
Scientists | 7:18 a.m. Aug. 25, 2008
.
BYU needs to bring in DNA scientists that are 'outside' non-LDS and non-BYU staff. Unfortunately, there is a fear in doing, that.
.
National Geographic dedicated an issue to studing
DNA testing throughout the tribal world with great success. CAPTION: "We know they dominated sea trade in the Mediterranean for 3,000 years. Now DNA testing and recent archaeological finds are revealing just what the Phoenician legacy meant to the ancient world�and to our own."
Now, does this sound like scientists in field of DNA are having a problem? Or, is there a problem with the Book of Mormon?
.
BYU needs to bring in DNA scientists that are 'outside' non-LDS and non-BYU staff. Unfortunately, there is a fear in doing, that.
.
National Geographic dedicated an issue to studing
DNA testing throughout the tribal world with great success. CAPTION: "We know they dominated sea trade in the Mediterranean for 3,000 years. Now DNA testing and recent archaeological finds are revealing just what the Phoenician legacy meant to the ancient world�and to our own."
Now, does this sound like scientists in field of DNA are having a problem? Or, is there a problem with the Book of Mormon?
.
Ernest T. Bass | 7:24 a.m. Aug. 25, 2008
DNA Lady brings up a good point. Apologists will attempt to discredit DNA if it
doesn't match the story, but when it does then they love the science.
Can't have it both ways, so what's it going to be?
The fact is, native Americans are not of Hebrew descent and generations of leaders have been wrong about telling that story.
Can't have it both ways, so what's it going to be?
The fact is, native Americans are not of Hebrew descent and generations of leaders have been wrong about telling that story.
Nick | 7:30 a.m. Aug. 25, 2008
The DNA evidence couldn't be more clear about the origins of Native
Americans, yet apologists can still say with a straight face that it can't
be used as a valid argument to test the accuracy of the BoM.
Sigh.
Sigh.
Will Grigg | 7:34 a.m. Aug. 25, 2008
"No known [DNA] reference sample" exists of the much-discussed Book of
Mormon peoples? From the time I was a child through my mission in Mexico and
Central America just 25 years ago, I was repeatedly told that
"Lamanites" like myself were direct, bodily descendants of Lehi. This
has been proudly and insistently taught by leaders of the LDS Church until quite
recently.
Anonymous | 7:35 a.m. Aug. 25, 2008
Kind of an unnecessary blanket statement to make, isn't it? If you believe
in what the BOM says, go with it on faith and don't worry about DNA. If you
have to go into a preemptive denial, I have to wonder why.
To DNA lady | 7:50 a.m. Aug. 25, 2008
You are about 3 years behind on the DNA evidence issue. There have been
numerous studies (by non-LDS research teams) that now call into question that
"land bridge" theory of initial population for the Americas. While
some residents possibly came that way, there is additional research that
supports the arrival of a small number of people coming from the Middle East.
The fact is, DNA science can neither prove nor disprove the authenticity of the Book of Mormon.
The fact is, DNA science can neither prove nor disprove the authenticity of the Book of Mormon.
A new level of absurdity | 7:55 a.m. Aug. 25, 2008
I am sort of active, I take my kids to church, not every Sunday, haven't
been to Temple in years, etc. I resent being treated like a moron just because
I am Mormon. DNA analysis is either useful or it isn't.
Some of the claims in BoM seem absurd to modern readers. I am entirely content to read the BoM as a parable, but the Church continues to mock me by insisting on its scientific truth.
Some of the claims in BoM seem absurd to modern readers. I am entirely content to read the BoM as a parable, but the Church continues to mock me by insisting on its scientific truth.
Right, but... | 8:03 a.m. Aug. 25, 2008
Mr. Butler is right about the DNA evidence not "proving" the BOM as
true or false. But, the devil is in the details not mentioned in the article.
For instance, early LDS leaders such as Joseph Smith, Brigham Young and others
did make statements to the effect that the native Americans were
"Lamanites". If so, and this was after the die off from disease
mentioned in the article, we would expect to find something in the DNA that
matches middle eastern people, but we don't. Now, that does not disprove
the BOM but wouldn't we all agree that it would be nice if the reverse were
true--that DNA from native Americans did show a link to middle eastern people?
But it does not. So we're left with faith, again.
Interestingly, there are other problems unrelated to DNA that make the BOM historicity problematic. See the book compiled by Brigham Madsen but written (never published during his lifetime) by LDS General Authority BH Roberts. The book is titled "Studies of the Book of Mormon" and is available to order on line or thru libraries. It is interesting because of who wrote it and the conclusions he came to.
Interestingly, there are other problems unrelated to DNA that make the BOM historicity problematic. See the book compiled by Brigham Madsen but written (never published during his lifetime) by LDS General Authority BH Roberts. The book is titled "Studies of the Book of Mormon" and is available to order on line or thru libraries. It is interesting because of who wrote it and the conclusions he came to.
Of Course | 8:17 a.m. Aug. 25, 2008
.
The Church has to insist it scientific truth !
All the Prophet, by revelation,(particularly, Joseph Smith states that the indians in the Americas are descendence of the Hebrews. If you don't believe the prophets of the LDS Church on this issue, then you can't trust its teachings on other issues, much less the BoM.
Too much hypocrasy in this Church !!!
.
The Church has to insist it scientific truth !
All the Prophet, by revelation,(particularly, Joseph Smith states that the indians in the Americas are descendence of the Hebrews. If you don't believe the prophets of the LDS Church on this issue, then you can't trust its teachings on other issues, much less the BoM.
Too much hypocrasy in this Church !!!
.
PV | 8:19 a.m. Aug. 25, 2008
DNA is not likely to change anyone's views regarding the Book of Mormon one
way or the other. It will, however, have a dramatic influence on archaeology,
and has done that already, casting serious doubt on isolationist theories as it
is becoming evident that the Native American people were the result of several
series of migratory events rather than a single incident.
Cats | 8:49 a.m. Aug. 25, 2008
I am not a scientist but have read a number of articles and studies written by
DNA scientists, including this one. I totally believe what these scientists
say--that is that DNA can neither prove nor disprove the Book of Mormon. DNA of
small groups, when contributed to a larger population, will disappear within a
few generations. It, therefore, can't be tracked.
Did you know that different Jewish groups throughout the world CANNOT be connected through DNA. Even though it is known that they have been Jewish for many generations, they cannot be genetically linked. That should give you some idea of how complex the DNA issue is. There are also other issues including the movements of various populations over thousands years, etc.
Both religion and science deal in PARTIAL knowledge. Don't lose faith in the things you know to be true because of the partial knowledge that is currently available through scientific studies.
The truth of the Book of Mormon can only be known through a witness from the spirit. That is how I know it to be true and that is how any sincere person can also know it.
Did you know that different Jewish groups throughout the world CANNOT be connected through DNA. Even though it is known that they have been Jewish for many generations, they cannot be genetically linked. That should give you some idea of how complex the DNA issue is. There are also other issues including the movements of various populations over thousands years, etc.
Both religion and science deal in PARTIAL knowledge. Don't lose faith in the things you know to be true because of the partial knowledge that is currently available through scientific studies.
The truth of the Book of Mormon can only be known through a witness from the spirit. That is how I know it to be true and that is how any sincere person can also know it.
Science has all answers | 8:52 a.m. Aug. 25, 2008
I base my faith on scientific research. It is really convenient because each
month as new research is published I can change what I believe in (keeps me on
my toes).
Amazed | 8:54 a.m. Aug. 25, 2008
Oh ye of little faith. . . etc. How oft would I have gathered you but ye would
not. Do all of you who are commenting really think that a philosophy of "if
I can't prove it with science I can't believe it" will ever have
the power of salvation?? Don't you know anything about God's dealing
with His children or are you going to live the rest of your lives ever learning
and never coming to a knowledge of the truth?
absurdity is right | 8:57 a.m. Aug. 25, 2008
The article misses the fact that there's a very recent discovery of middle
eastern DNA in South America. That story was reported here in the Deseret
News.
The fact is that because the science isn't complete - the samples aren't comprehensive or rigorous, the recent discovery doesn't prove anything.
The fact is that because the science isn't complete - the samples aren't comprehensive or rigorous, the recent discovery doesn't prove anything.
Lee | 9:00 a.m. Aug. 25, 2008
DNA-vs-BoM are like comparing apples and lugnuts. Only people who don't
truly understand the science attempt the comparison.
Sort of like doing radio carbon dating of bat quano -- it is done, and discussed by "experts," but not by anyone with a real clue.
Both cases SOUND logical, but only to those who don't understand the science behind the testing. Once you truly understand the test, and it's limitations, then the topic of DNA testing for BoM proof is as silly and inane as rcd'ing bat guano.
Sort of like doing radio carbon dating of bat quano -- it is done, and discussed by "experts," but not by anyone with a real clue.
Both cases SOUND logical, but only to those who don't understand the science behind the testing. Once you truly understand the test, and it's limitations, then the topic of DNA testing for BoM proof is as silly and inane as rcd'ing bat guano.
DNA Lady | 9:03 a.m. Aug. 25, 2008
The alleged scientists that doubt the land bridge, are these the same scientists
that don't believe in evolution or are diehard believers in a flat-earth by
chance?
Jesus taught in Parables, so why could the BOM be yet another example? The burning in my bosom tells me that J.S. was not divinely inspired when he said that it was literal. But the church tells me that "when the prophet has spoken the thinking has been done." What to believe, oh what to believe. Simple, go with Occam's Razor with the most likely scenario being the most likely to occur.
Jesus taught in Parables, so why could the BOM be yet another example? The burning in my bosom tells me that J.S. was not divinely inspired when he said that it was literal. But the church tells me that "when the prophet has spoken the thinking has been done." What to believe, oh what to believe. Simple, go with Occam's Razor with the most likely scenario being the most likely to occur.
NY | 9:04 a.m. Aug. 25, 2008
The bottom line, as always, is that there is nothing in the DNA that precludes a
group coming over from the middle east and there is nothing in the Book of
Mormon that precludes groups coming over from Asia. We are left where we
started. I would like to know how Joseph Smith could have known that there was a
place in what is now Saudi Arabia called Nahom, however. Since this wasn't
known until recently, this was quite a feat.
John Pack Lambert | 9:08 a.m. Aug. 25, 2008
There is ample evidence in the Book of Mormon that some of the Jaredites,
probably dissenters from the nation who totally broke off, survived and
intermixed with the Mulekites and or Lamanites and maybe even early with the
Nephites. The repetition of Jaredite names goes towards this.
Beyond this there are various factors involved with small sampling implications, the fact that the Book of Mormon does not rule out a latter migration from Asia to America which is supported by many sources, and the complexed factors of what post-contact phenomenon has done to the existing Native American DNA sample.
We have no knowledge of the race of the Jaredites.
Then there is the Sharem factor. This man says he has sought much to speak with Jacob. However John L. Sorenso has pointed out that by even very fast demographic growth models the population would not have been more than 300 people. It does not make sense that Sharem needed such efforts unless there has been some unaccounted for factor in the growth of the population, such as a new group joining them.
Beyond this there are various factors involved with small sampling implications, the fact that the Book of Mormon does not rule out a latter migration from Asia to America which is supported by many sources, and the complexed factors of what post-contact phenomenon has done to the existing Native American DNA sample.
We have no knowledge of the race of the Jaredites.
Then there is the Sharem factor. This man says he has sought much to speak with Jacob. However John L. Sorenso has pointed out that by even very fast demographic growth models the population would not have been more than 300 people. It does not make sense that Sharem needed such efforts unless there has been some unaccounted for factor in the growth of the population, such as a new group joining them.
John Pack Lambert | 9:18 a.m. Aug. 25, 2008
I think some of the commentators put too much credence in DNA studies.
There are lots of unknows about Native American populations. Among these are the Garifuna, who many consider to be of mixed African and Native American (particulary Caribbean) ancestry. Yet the Garifuna insist that their entrie ancestry in pre-Columbian.
Another question to ask is if there was a major influx of people displaced by Jengis Khan into the Americas who intermixed with existing populations how that would be shown in DNA studies? There is linguistic evidence that links Navajo and its related languages more closely to those languages spoken in parts of Asia than to other languages in the Americas.
However the assumption that the Book of Mormon ever says that all the people are of Hebraic ancestry is not supportable. Zoram's actually ancestry is never declared. Also it seems that Mulek did not come alone to the Americas, but who else came with him and where they were from is not stated. It is possible that the route he and his people took involved going east and picking up people from Asia.
There are lots of unknows about Native American populations. Among these are the Garifuna, who many consider to be of mixed African and Native American (particulary Caribbean) ancestry. Yet the Garifuna insist that their entrie ancestry in pre-Columbian.
Another question to ask is if there was a major influx of people displaced by Jengis Khan into the Americas who intermixed with existing populations how that would be shown in DNA studies? There is linguistic evidence that links Navajo and its related languages more closely to those languages spoken in parts of Asia than to other languages in the Americas.
However the assumption that the Book of Mormon ever says that all the people are of Hebraic ancestry is not supportable. Zoram's actually ancestry is never declared. Also it seems that Mulek did not come alone to the Americas, but who else came with him and where they were from is not stated. It is possible that the route he and his people took involved going east and picking up people from Asia.
Hoosier Coug | 9:30 a.m. Aug. 25, 2008
There have been several posts about Mormons wanting to be on both sides of this
issue. Aren't you trying to have it both ways as well? We are supposed to
look at scientific information, but only that which supports the anti-Mormon
views? We're only supposed to listen to Non-Mormon experts on the
scientific validity of the Book of Mormon, even though most of those experts
have not read the BOM? Or, if they have, they are likely to be the anti-Mormon
tripe that you would like to have forced on us?
Why is it that we cannot have a civil discussion on this topic? Why must you post intolerant rants? Of course, I am not saying that Mormons are blameless in their finger pointing -- the posts I read about getting out of Utah if you do not like it make me sick. And by the way, Mormons are not idiots (though there are some, like all religions). I have my MBA and am working on my second. I have viewed a lot of the information that is out there and have come to my own conclusion, just like many others within my religion.
Why is it that we cannot have a civil discussion on this topic? Why must you post intolerant rants? Of course, I am not saying that Mormons are blameless in their finger pointing -- the posts I read about getting out of Utah if you do not like it make me sick. And by the way, Mormons are not idiots (though there are some, like all religions). I have my MBA and am working on my second. I have viewed a lot of the information that is out there and have come to my own conclusion, just like many others within my religion.
SFC RET DENNIS | 9:30 a.m. Aug. 25, 2008
You will find hipocrisy no matter which church you go to. You will find
people who live by what the belive in no matter what anyone has to say cause
that is there belve. According to "so call experts" DNA says we come
from Apes, yet the Bible says we do not that we come from Adam and Eve. So its
a matter of what one wishes to belive in, all sience is is conjeture, what was
belive 100 years ageo is no longer true to day cause sience is allways changing.
Sience one said we were related to the Deandersouls now DNA says we are not. I
just watched a documentry about it the other day.
John Pack Lambert | 9:30 a.m. Aug. 25, 2008
To Will Grigg,
That the Native peoples of the Americas are largely the descendants of Lehi we do not dispute. However, which of the ancestral lines go to Lehi and which do not is not known.
Secondly, we known little about Lehi's DNA other than that he was a descendant of Manasseh.
The alteration of DNA over time, the Jaredite factor, the other unknown peoples factor, the "some of them are our brethren" comment about the Zoramites, the Sharem factor, the Zoram factor, the associates of Mulek factor and on and on tell us that we know far to little about the ancestry and other happenings in the Book of Mormon to make diffinitive claims.
Secondly, we have to consider what 95% exticntion of a population does to the remaining DNA samples.
That the Native peoples of the Americas are largely the descendants of Lehi we do not dispute. However, which of the ancestral lines go to Lehi and which do not is not known.
Secondly, we known little about Lehi's DNA other than that he was a descendant of Manasseh.
The alteration of DNA over time, the Jaredite factor, the other unknown peoples factor, the "some of them are our brethren" comment about the Zoramites, the Sharem factor, the Zoram factor, the associates of Mulek factor and on and on tell us that we know far to little about the ancestry and other happenings in the Book of Mormon to make diffinitive claims.
Secondly, we have to consider what 95% exticntion of a population does to the remaining DNA samples.
Prosecutor | 9:40 a.m. Aug. 25, 2008
DNA _is_ useful as evidence -- that one person, from whom we have viable tissue
samples, is or is not closely related to another. However, as a tracker of
cultural evolution, as any honest scientist will tell you, it's a rather
blunt tool.
Why would we be surprised that science has a hard time finding evidence of Laman's DNA? What'd his DNA look like? We don't know. Pick any other person from antiquity. How many descendents of David or Caesar or Eric the Red have we identified? Does that mean none of them have living descendants? Hardly.
Statistically, it�s quite likely we�re all descended from each of them.
The evidence is clear -- Book of Mormon peoples arrived in a land already teeming with cultures from somewhere other than the Middle East. By their own account, they were never more than a small subculture in a much more vast sea. This would be true of their DNA, as well.
So far, only a lucky sequence of genetic and cultural coincidences (eg. Cohen modal haplotype) might permit DNA to track descent of a small group anciently introduced into a much larger population.
We'll keep looking, but don't hold your breath.
Why would we be surprised that science has a hard time finding evidence of Laman's DNA? What'd his DNA look like? We don't know. Pick any other person from antiquity. How many descendents of David or Caesar or Eric the Red have we identified? Does that mean none of them have living descendants? Hardly.
Statistically, it�s quite likely we�re all descended from each of them.
The evidence is clear -- Book of Mormon peoples arrived in a land already teeming with cultures from somewhere other than the Middle East. By their own account, they were never more than a small subculture in a much more vast sea. This would be true of their DNA, as well.
So far, only a lucky sequence of genetic and cultural coincidences (eg. Cohen modal haplotype) might permit DNA to track descent of a small group anciently introduced into a much larger population.
We'll keep looking, but don't hold your breath.
To: John Lambert | 9:43 a.m. Aug. 25, 2008
�Metallurgy does not appear in the region under discussion
until about the 9th century A.D. None of the foregoing technical demands are met
by the archaeology of the region proposed as Book-of-Mormon lands and places. I
regard this as a major weakness in the armor of our proponents and friends. I
doubt that the proponents will be very convincing if they contend that evidence
of metallurgy is difficult to find and a rarity in archaeology. Where mining was
practiced � as in the Old Testament world, mountains of ore
and tailings have been found. Artifacts of metal have been found. Art portrays
the existence of metallurgical products. Again, the score is zero.
- Thomas Ferguson, �Written Symposium,� pp. 20-21, reprinted in Stan Larson, Quest for the Gold Plates, p. 257
Brass: �And I did teach my people to build buildings, and to work in all manner of wood, and of iron, and of copper, and of brass, and of steel, and of gold, and of silver, and of precious ores, which were in great abundance.�
- 2 Nephi 5:15, Book of Mormon
No evidence of brass, steel or precious ores.
- Thomas Ferguson, �Written Symposium,� pp. 20-21, reprinted in Stan Larson, Quest for the Gold Plates, p. 257
Brass: �And I did teach my people to build buildings, and to work in all manner of wood, and of iron, and of copper, and of brass, and of steel, and of gold, and of silver, and of precious ores, which were in great abundance.�
- 2 Nephi 5:15, Book of Mormon
No evidence of brass, steel or precious ores.
John Pack Lambert | 9:44 a.m. Aug. 25, 2008
Another issue that Book of Mormon opponants never deal with is the fact that
the history of the Lamanites is rarely told in the Book. They are in a seperate
land, and especially prior to Mosiah the population histories of both peoples is
hard to understand.
Did the Lamanites intermix with other peoples who were indigenous to the Americas? The answer to that question is "we do not know". However if they are a war like people, they probably went to war with other neighbors besides the Nephites, conquored other people and incorporated them into their society.
There are many examples of various Native American groups conquoring and incorporating other groups. The Erie and many other neighbors of the Iroquois were conquored and incorporated. Genetically the latter Iroquois had Erie ancestry but they had no cultural memory of the Erie.
The same process may well have occured in the Lamanites conquest of other peoples. This would explain why an observer, expecially an outsider like Zeniff only reflected their connection with Laman, Lemuel and the sons of Ismael and not with other ancestries that they only had genetically and not culturally.
Did the Lamanites intermix with other peoples who were indigenous to the Americas? The answer to that question is "we do not know". However if they are a war like people, they probably went to war with other neighbors besides the Nephites, conquored other people and incorporated them into their society.
There are many examples of various Native American groups conquoring and incorporating other groups. The Erie and many other neighbors of the Iroquois were conquored and incorporated. Genetically the latter Iroquois had Erie ancestry but they had no cultural memory of the Erie.
The same process may well have occured in the Lamanites conquest of other peoples. This would explain why an observer, expecially an outsider like Zeniff only reflected their connection with Laman, Lemuel and the sons of Ismael and not with other ancestries that they only had genetically and not culturally.
To: John Lambert | 9:46 a.m. Aug. 25, 2008
Uninhabited Continent:
�And behold, it is wisdom that this land should be kept as yet from the knowledge of other nations; for behold, many nations would overrun the land, that there would be no place for an inheritance.�
- 2 Nephi 1:8, Book of Mormon
The continent has been inhabited for 40,000 years � millions of inhabitants.
Chariots:
�And they said unto him: Behold, he is feeding thy horses. Now the king had commanded his servants, previous to the time of the watering of their flocks, that they should prepare his horses and chariots, and conduct him forth to the land of Nephi."
- Alma 18:9, Book of Mormon
No evidence of wheeled vehicles or horses in Book of Mormon times.
�And behold, it is wisdom that this land should be kept as yet from the knowledge of other nations; for behold, many nations would overrun the land, that there would be no place for an inheritance.�
- 2 Nephi 1:8, Book of Mormon
The continent has been inhabited for 40,000 years � millions of inhabitants.
Chariots:
�And they said unto him: Behold, he is feeding thy horses. Now the king had commanded his servants, previous to the time of the watering of their flocks, that they should prepare his horses and chariots, and conduct him forth to the land of Nephi."
- Alma 18:9, Book of Mormon
No evidence of wheeled vehicles or horses in Book of Mormon times.
Mormon Scholar | 9:48 a.m. Aug. 25, 2008
"The terms cattle, horses, sheep and so on are mentioned at several points in the Nephite record. And it is dismaying to some who wish to be dismayed, I believe and a few others who (honestly) wish an answer could be provided why there are not cows like we mean cows, horses like we mean horses, sheep like we mean sheep. The fact is that all the ancient studies say those animals simply were not present in the New World. Period. They were not here."
- John Sorenson, LDS Apologist, FARMS article from their website
All of these animals are found in the Book of Mormon yet none of them existed in America during Book of Mormon times:
1. Ass
2. Bull
3. Calf
4. Cattle
5. Cow
6. Domestic Goat
7. Horse (plays a major role in the Book of Mormon)
Ernest T. Bass | 9:52 a.m. Aug. 25, 2008
Silk: �And now, because of the steadiness of the church
they began to be exceedingly rich, having abundance of all things whatsoever
they stood in need--an abundance of flocks and herds, and fatlings of every
kind, and also abundance of grain, and of gold, and of silver, and of precious
things, and abundance of silk and fine-twined linen, and all manner of good
homely cloth.�
- Alma 1:29, Book of Mormon
No evidence of silk in Mesoamerica
�So far as is known to the writer, no non-Mormon archaeologist at the present time is using the Book of Mormon as a guide in archaeological research. Nor does he know of any non-Mormon archaeologist who holds that the American Indians are descendants of the Jews, or that Christianity was known in America in the first century of our era...�
- Ulster Archaeological Society Newsletter, no. 64, Jan. 30, 1960, p. 3
- Alma 1:29, Book of Mormon
No evidence of silk in Mesoamerica
�So far as is known to the writer, no non-Mormon archaeologist at the present time is using the Book of Mormon as a guide in archaeological research. Nor does he know of any non-Mormon archaeologist who holds that the American Indians are descendants of the Jews, or that Christianity was known in America in the first century of our era...�
- Ulster Archaeological Society Newsletter, no. 64, Jan. 30, 1960, p. 3
John Pack Lambert | 9:54 a.m. Aug. 25, 2008
To 8:57,
I think you failed to read about the discovery in depth. Scott Woodward, a BYU professor, cautioned against any assumptions based on it. This is because it is quite likely that if we had all the information, we would be able to trace this Hebraic DNA to Spanish Conquistador ancestors who in turn were descended from Jews who converted to Christianity. The latter were so prevalent in Spain that for a time the Archbishopric of Burgos was almost a hereditary office of former Jews who had converted to Christianity.
I think what people need to do is realize that genetic ancestry and percieved social ancestry are not the same thing.
Beyond this, the fact that the initial group of people who come with Lehi is under 20 means that any irregularities in their genes will create different gene patters than we expect.
I think you failed to read about the discovery in depth. Scott Woodward, a BYU professor, cautioned against any assumptions based on it. This is because it is quite likely that if we had all the information, we would be able to trace this Hebraic DNA to Spanish Conquistador ancestors who in turn were descended from Jews who converted to Christianity. The latter were so prevalent in Spain that for a time the Archbishopric of Burgos was almost a hereditary office of former Jews who had converted to Christianity.
I think what people need to do is realize that genetic ancestry and percieved social ancestry are not the same thing.
Beyond this, the fact that the initial group of people who come with Lehi is under 20 means that any irregularities in their genes will create different gene patters than we expect.
Reality | 10:02 a.m. Aug. 25, 2008
�Since the Gospel embraces all truth, there can never be
any genuine contradictions between true science and the LDS religion. I am
obliged, as a Latter-day Saint, to believe whatever is true, regardless of the
source.�
- Henry Eyring, Faith of a Scientist, p. 12, 31
- Henry Eyring, Faith of a Scientist, p. 12, 31
kenny | 10:07 a.m. Aug. 25, 2008
The scriputres are plain to those who have faith in them,those who choose to
believe. The Lord will only bless those who ernestly seek the truth WITH the
truth.One who seeks to discredit or show reason of doubt;the Lord will keep them
from understanding and truthful reason.I believe the world is not ready for
scienctific proof concerning the Book of Mormon.Should the proof be there and
all doubt cast aside then the object and reasoning for having the book in the
first place would be lost.One purpose of the BOM is to separate the faithful
from those who need science as evidience.The apologists seem to not understand
their own faith.
John Pack Lambert | 10:11 a.m. Aug. 25, 2008
To the 9:43 commentator,
The Bible says the Philistines had 10,000 iron chariots, but no archelogical evidence of any have been found.
The Bible says the Philistines had 10,000 iron chariots, but no archelogical evidence of any have been found.
kenny | 10:17 a.m. Aug. 25, 2008
Purpose of the BOM: to bring people to the knowledge of Christ by faith and not
proof.If God provided the proof to the world then the reason for the BOM would
be lost.The BOM does not build a persons faith in science.It builds their faith
in God.Hence, the Lord probably will not reveal scientific proof of the BOM to
the world.Latter day saints are climbing the wrong wall when they seek evidence
to the BOM.What we need to do is to study and apply it;then the truth of it will
manifest and our faith will exceed beyond comprehention.We waste far too much
time in our efforts to convert by scientific reason.This book comes from the
Lord. Allow the Lords hand in all its doing.God does not want us to simply
convert man by evidence. He wants man to accept it on faith.Forget DNA.
John Pack Lambert | 10:17 a.m. Aug. 25, 2008
To 9:46,
Your assumption that when Nephi says "this land" he means the entire American continent is not supportable.
Secondly, you can not deney that the huge civilizations of African and Eurasia had no knowledge of the Americas.
Thirdly, population growth figures for the Nephites indicate they are joined by other people. How else do we explain Sharem who has to seek out Jacob.
There their is the encounter with the Mulekites who have been around for hundreds of years, and they knew nothing of them. Obviously there are might be other peoples who they do not come in contact with.
On the issue of charriots and horses you make many assumptions. There is actually ample evidence of ancient wheeled viehicles in the Americas, although most if not all of it is of small "toys". However chariots do not have to have wheels. It could refer to a sledge or some item along those lines.
There is some evidence of horses in the ancient Americas, although limited and not conclusive. There is virtually no evidence of horses in the Hunnic lands, and yet they had significantly more horses than people.
Your assumption that when Nephi says "this land" he means the entire American continent is not supportable.
Secondly, you can not deney that the huge civilizations of African and Eurasia had no knowledge of the Americas.
Thirdly, population growth figures for the Nephites indicate they are joined by other people. How else do we explain Sharem who has to seek out Jacob.
There their is the encounter with the Mulekites who have been around for hundreds of years, and they knew nothing of them. Obviously there are might be other peoples who they do not come in contact with.
On the issue of charriots and horses you make many assumptions. There is actually ample evidence of ancient wheeled viehicles in the Americas, although most if not all of it is of small "toys". However chariots do not have to have wheels. It could refer to a sledge or some item along those lines.
There is some evidence of horses in the ancient Americas, although limited and not conclusive. There is virtually no evidence of horses in the Hunnic lands, and yet they had significantly more horses than people.
Cats | 10:20 a.m. Aug. 25, 2008
To DNA Lady: Just a clarification--The "Siberian land bridge only"
theory of migration into the Americas has been formally discredited by the
American Association for the Advancement of Science (AAAS). It is NOW the
position of the anthropoligical scientific community that the Americas were
populated and settled by "MULTIPLE MARITIME CORSSINGS." Discoveries
of Kennewick Man and numerous other discoveries, over the last few years, have
totally changed the position of the scientific community. Of course, this is
what the peoples of mesoamerica always said about where their ancestors came
from, but the "experts" paid no attention to them, preferring to
follow their own ideas.
Unfortunately, this information has not yet trickled down to the public or the schools. Many laymen and public school teachers erroneosly continue to promote the "Siberian Land Bridge Only" theory.
The Book of Mormon is a witness to Jesus Christ and is a record of his dealings with his people in the Americas. The only way to know this is through witness from the Holy Ghost. However, it is nice that, as time goes on, new scientific research and discoveries continue to add more and more evidence in support of the Book of Mormon.
Unfortunately, this information has not yet trickled down to the public or the schools. Many laymen and public school teachers erroneosly continue to promote the "Siberian Land Bridge Only" theory.
The Book of Mormon is a witness to Jesus Christ and is a record of his dealings with his people in the Americas. The only way to know this is through witness from the Holy Ghost. However, it is nice that, as time goes on, new scientific research and discoveries continue to add more and more evidence in support of the Book of Mormon.
Wendy | 10:21 a.m. Aug. 25, 2008
DNA Lady...not much difference in English and Irish...give me a break. The 2
countries have mixed for centuries. I believe with out a doubt that they have
the DNA correct on Joseph Smith. Nonetheless he looks Irish, English, Scottish,
or even better all BRITISH! AND, by the way, it's not quite the same as
tracing DNA of the prehistoric people.
kenny | 10:27 a.m. Aug. 25, 2008
The purpose of the BOM is not to teach man who's whats and whys and
wherefores of the Americas from 600 BC to 421 AD.If we can prove that the
american indians came across the Bering Straits, then oh well. Latter Day Saints
read Moroni 10:4-5 then proceed to prove the BOM by science. The only real tool
we have in knowing of its truth is in Moroni 10:4-5.I suspect most LDS who
accept the BOM as scripture dont really apply or accept Moroni 10:4-5
Cats | 10:30 a.m. Aug. 25, 2008
To everyone on the Subject of archaeology: Many of the "facts" you
are pointing out are simply in error. For example: there IS evidence of horses
in ancient Mesoamerica. You need to spend a little more time in your research.
Many of the claims you are making are simply not factual and outdated based on
recent discoveries. Dr. Sorenson's book was written many years ago and
does not include a lot of this recent evidence.
However, as I stated above, archaeology is a science that is very inexact and deals in a lot of partial knowledge. Only a very small percentage of the KNOWN sites in mesoamerica have even been excavated. There are many, many more locations yet to be discovered. However, the more information that is discovered, the more it tends to support the Book of Mormon.
However, the real message of the Book of Mormon is spiritual and that is the way to know of it's truth. That is how I know it's true.
However, as I stated above, archaeology is a science that is very inexact and deals in a lot of partial knowledge. Only a very small percentage of the KNOWN sites in mesoamerica have even been excavated. There are many, many more locations yet to be discovered. However, the more information that is discovered, the more it tends to support the Book of Mormon.
However, the real message of the Book of Mormon is spiritual and that is the way to know of it's truth. That is how I know it's true.
Jessica | 10:31 a.m. Aug. 25, 2008
Book of Mormon should be able to be proven true by science:
�After many years of careful study, the real importance of Book of Mormon archaeology has dawned on me. It will take but a moment to explain. The Book of Mormon is the only revelation from God in the history of the world that can be tested by scientific physical evidence. To find the city of Jericho is merely to confirm a point in history. To find the city of Zarahemla is to confirm a point in history but it is also to confirm, through tangible physical evidence, divine revelation to the modern world through Joseph Smith, Moroni, and the Urim and Thummim. Thus, Book of Mormon history is revelation that can be tested, and will be proved true, by archaeology and science.�
- Thomas Ferguson to the First Presidency, April 10, 1953, Ferguson Collection, BYU
�After many years of careful study, the real importance of Book of Mormon archaeology has dawned on me. It will take but a moment to explain. The Book of Mormon is the only revelation from God in the history of the world that can be tested by scientific physical evidence. To find the city of Jericho is merely to confirm a point in history. To find the city of Zarahemla is to confirm a point in history but it is also to confirm, through tangible physical evidence, divine revelation to the modern world through Joseph Smith, Moroni, and the Urim and Thummim. Thus, Book of Mormon history is revelation that can be tested, and will be proved true, by archaeology and science.�
- Thomas Ferguson to the First Presidency, April 10, 1953, Ferguson Collection, BYU
John Pack Lambert | 10:33 a.m. Aug. 25, 2008
To 9:48,
What major role in the Book of Mormon does the horse play? Do people go into battle on the horse like the Plains Indians? Do they use the horse to farm like Joseph Smith's contemporaries?
Your quote from John L. Sorenson is out of context, but you were not a good enough editor to totally destroy what he is saying. He says "sheep like we mean sheep", "cows like we mean cows" and so on.
Why do we assume that those people meant cows like we mean them. Spanish explorers called the buffalo (which actually arn't buffalo, but that is another story) "vacas" which means cows.
There are many other examples of cross cultural name borrowing for animals.
What major role in the Book of Mormon does the horse play? Do people go into battle on the horse like the Plains Indians? Do they use the horse to farm like Joseph Smith's contemporaries?
Your quote from John L. Sorenson is out of context, but you were not a good enough editor to totally destroy what he is saying. He says "sheep like we mean sheep", "cows like we mean cows" and so on.
Why do we assume that those people meant cows like we mean them. Spanish explorers called the buffalo (which actually arn't buffalo, but that is another story) "vacas" which means cows.
There are many other examples of cross cultural name borrowing for animals.
Truth | 10:34 a.m. Aug. 25, 2008
.
'We are to love the Lord are God with all are heart, soul and MIND...' Yes, the Lord create us to think...discern...He leaves evidence all over the place to what is True and to what is False.
In this case, the Lord has laid out the evidence to falsehood through every means...scriptural, theological, geographical, archological, and Biological ! Through education from secular society, and even your own.(R.H.Roberts). Don't you think its time to 'open your eyes?' The prophets of Mormonism have been deceived. How much more evidence do you need?
.
'We are to love the Lord are God with all are heart, soul and MIND...' Yes, the Lord create us to think...discern...He leaves evidence all over the place to what is True and to what is False.
In this case, the Lord has laid out the evidence to falsehood through every means...scriptural, theological, geographical, archological, and Biological ! Through education from secular society, and even your own.(R.H.Roberts). Don't you think its time to 'open your eyes?' The prophets of Mormonism have been deceived. How much more evidence do you need?
.
Princeton Graduate | 10:34 a.m. Aug. 25, 2008
John Pack Lambert wrote:
"John Pack Lambert | 10:11 a.m. Aug. 25, 2008
To the 9:43 commentator,
The Bible says the Philistines had 10,000 iron chariots, but no archelogical evidence of any have been found."
Not true. Literally thousands of old world chariots have been uncovered over the last 6 centuries. If you want a good look at an ancient "Philistine chariot" you should pay a visit to the Cairo museum of antiquities.
There are several other musuems in the world where you go to see an ancient "Philistine chariot".
"John Pack Lambert | 10:11 a.m. Aug. 25, 2008
To the 9:43 commentator,
The Bible says the Philistines had 10,000 iron chariots, but no archelogical evidence of any have been found."
Not true. Literally thousands of old world chariots have been uncovered over the last 6 centuries. If you want a good look at an ancient "Philistine chariot" you should pay a visit to the Cairo museum of antiquities.
There are several other musuems in the world where you go to see an ancient "Philistine chariot".
Trina | 10:38 a.m. Aug. 25, 2008
John Lambert,
I have recently seen a three-man ancient Philistine chariot at the Chicago musuem. Please check your facts.
I have yet to see any archeological evidence from the new world to support the Book of Mormon.
I have recently seen a three-man ancient Philistine chariot at the Chicago musuem. Please check your facts.
I have yet to see any archeological evidence from the new world to support the Book of Mormon.
Horses | 10:42 a.m. Aug. 25, 2008
There is evidence of horses in the Mesoamerica:
Wikipedia:
"[Tapirs] inhabit jungle and forest regions of South America, Central America, and Southeast Asia. All four species of tapir are classified as endangered or vulnerable. Their closest relatives are the other odd-toed ungulates, including horses and rhinoceroses."
"in Lacandon Maya, it is called cash-i-tzimin, meaning 'jungle horse'"
Lacandon is the precise location where most Mormon scholars believe the Book of Mormon took place, between the northward flowing Grijavala (Sidon?) and Usamacinta Rivers.
Wikipedia:
"[Tapirs] inhabit jungle and forest regions of South America, Central America, and Southeast Asia. All four species of tapir are classified as endangered or vulnerable. Their closest relatives are the other odd-toed ungulates, including horses and rhinoceroses."
"in Lacandon Maya, it is called cash-i-tzimin, meaning 'jungle horse'"
Lacandon is the precise location where most Mormon scholars believe the Book of Mormon took place, between the northward flowing Grijavala (Sidon?) and Usamacinta Rivers.
to 9:48 AM | 10:43 a.m. Aug. 25, 2008
Your straw-man argument about animal names doesn't hold water. There are
several examples of cases where a people, having newly arrived on the scene,
assign a name to an animal that was not used previously. One example: The
European settlers of this continent called the American bison
"buffalo" when they first found them on the American plains. We now
know that the American bison and the African water-buffalo (to which these
settlers were comparing the bison) are not directly related. The name was
chosen by the settlers as a descriptor of the animal.
It is entirely plausible that similar associations could have been made by another immigrating group: The indigenous fauna would have been given names familiar to the settling group, even if the animals with those names weren't directly related to other animals that the group were familiar with.
Not to mention that the BofM purports to be a translation. When it says "horse" in the text, that is the best association to whatever "horse" meant in Reformed Egyptian--whatever that is. And, the specific animal "horse" refers to cannot be concretely determined one way or the other.
It is entirely plausible that similar associations could have been made by another immigrating group: The indigenous fauna would have been given names familiar to the settling group, even if the animals with those names weren't directly related to other animals that the group were familiar with.
Not to mention that the BofM purports to be a translation. When it says "horse" in the text, that is the best association to whatever "horse" meant in Reformed Egyptian--whatever that is. And, the specific animal "horse" refers to cannot be concretely determined one way or the other.
Silk | 10:48 a.m. Aug. 25, 2008
Below are examples of silk-like substances used to a great degree in
Mesoamerican culture.
"1. Silk from insect cocoons was spun into cloth in ancient meso-America. (Johnson, "Basketry and Textiles", 1967)
2. Silklike fibers were harvested from the Ceiba ("silk cotten") tree of Yucatan. (Francesco Saverino Clavigero, "History of Mexico", 1817)
3. Cloth was woven from pita floja ("silk-grass" - aecmea magdalenae)- (Felix W. McBride, Smithsonian Institute 1917)".
"1. Silk from insect cocoons was spun into cloth in ancient meso-America. (Johnson, "Basketry and Textiles", 1967)
2. Silklike fibers were harvested from the Ceiba ("silk cotten") tree of Yucatan. (Francesco Saverino Clavigero, "History of Mexico", 1817)
3. Cloth was woven from pita floja ("silk-grass" - aecmea magdalenae)- (Felix W. McBride, Smithsonian Institute 1917)".
Cats | 10:51 a.m. Aug. 25, 2008
To John Pack Lambert: You are making an excellent point. The fact is, at this
point, there is very little archaeological evidence that supports the Bible.
Those who use these "scientific" arguments against the Book of Mormon
are using the same sort of arguments that are also used against the Bible. BE
CAREFUL!!!
Don't lose faith in the truth you know because of the partial knowledge that is currently available. Also, often "scientific truth" turns out later to be competely erroneous.
Again, the way to know the truth of the Book of Mormon is through a witness from the Holy Ghost. Any sincere person can have that witness if he or she is willing to ask the Lord.
Don't lose faith in the truth you know because of the partial knowledge that is currently available. Also, often "scientific truth" turns out later to be competely erroneous.
Again, the way to know the truth of the Book of Mormon is through a witness from the Holy Ghost. Any sincere person can have that witness if he or she is willing to ask the Lord.
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