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Gay support group outlines requests to LDS Church
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Rob re: Paperboy | 2:28 p.m. Aug. 12, 2008
"Unfortunately religion today is used too often as a divisive wedge to
separate us, rather than bring us together. I'm pretty surprised at many of
the homophobic comments from so-called faithful members of the LDS church. If
loyalty to LDS doctrine and values and Christian values triggers these kinds of
responses, it raises serious questions about the value and impact of the Mormon
church on topics and issues that affect so many people and citizens of the U.S.
and the world in general."
You're generalizing too much from comments on a newspaper site. Churches are made up of sinners, not perfect people; if you kicked out all the sinners there'd be nothing left. It's important that we all try to be better, that's the point.
"It certainly doesn't make me want to associate with people who are so narrow-minded and dogmatic in their thinking and perspective. I prefer to spend my time with GRACIOUS, OPEN, NON-JUDGEMENTAL and FORGIVING people."
i.e. people who are too PC to tell you you're doing something wrong or stupid? I like it when people can be honest with me, it means that they care, and I can improve myself. Religious does NOT equal narrow-minded.
You're generalizing too much from comments on a newspaper site. Churches are made up of sinners, not perfect people; if you kicked out all the sinners there'd be nothing left. It's important that we all try to be better, that's the point.
"It certainly doesn't make me want to associate with people who are so narrow-minded and dogmatic in their thinking and perspective. I prefer to spend my time with GRACIOUS, OPEN, NON-JUDGEMENTAL and FORGIVING people."
i.e. people who are too PC to tell you you're doing something wrong or stupid? I like it when people can be honest with me, it means that they care, and I can improve myself. Religious does NOT equal narrow-minded.
Re - Helen, 12:50 | 2:31 p.m. Aug. 12, 2008
"Helen | 12:50 a.m. Aug. 12, 2008
What a bunch of bigots you Mormons are."
Ah, yes, that was helpful!.....
What a bunch of bigots you Mormons are."
Ah, yes, that was helpful!.....
Comments continue below
To Brad and others | 2:40 p.m. Aug. 12, 2008
Are you (or were you) a member of the Church because you had a testimony of its
divinity and you wanted to follow the Savior's commandments, or were you a
member of the Church because you wanted to be loved by the fellow members? This
is a sincere question, because I have never understood how people could be so
easily offended by other members in their ward if they had a true testimony of
the gospel. I get offended all the time by members (usually by all the stupid
gossip) but that has no bearing on my testimony. These ignorant people who
treated you that way are just as imperfect as you or I. To expect everyone to
be perfect is just silly. I go to church for my Savior, not the other members.
Just my two cents.
Rob | 2:46 p.m. Aug. 12, 2008
To Brad (2:07)
I realize that it's not simple, and I appreciate people like you who fight to bring understanding even when ignorant people (who are everywhere, not just in the LDS Church) don't listen. It's definitely not an issue that will just go away. My belief system doesn't allow me to condone homosexuality, but as they say, we should "love the sinner, hate the sin". That principle would make it much easier, but for some reason the general population of the church just struggles with it. I appreciate your level head here Brad, people get way too polarized on this issue and make too many rude statements one way or the other. Good luck to you. I hope you continue to find happiness.
I realize that it's not simple, and I appreciate people like you who fight to bring understanding even when ignorant people (who are everywhere, not just in the LDS Church) don't listen. It's definitely not an issue that will just go away. My belief system doesn't allow me to condone homosexuality, but as they say, we should "love the sinner, hate the sin". That principle would make it much easier, but for some reason the general population of the church just struggles with it. I appreciate your level head here Brad, people get way too polarized on this issue and make too many rude statements one way or the other. Good luck to you. I hope you continue to find happiness.
Mormon Psycho | 3:05 p.m. Aug. 12, 2008
As a member of the church who suffers from a rare form of early onset
schizophrenia, I too know what it's like to have behavioral abnormalities
that I can't help because I was "born that way".
As long as Affirmation and its supporters claim the one perk of mental illness (the reduced accountability for their actions) without accepting ANY of its drawbacks... as long as they refuse to advocate for research into treatments and possible cures for homosexuality or other mental illnesses... as long as their advocacy seems focussed entirely on gaining a legal special right for them to let thier illness control them without consequence, then I see no reason to take them seriously or have church leaders meet with them.
And don't throw the bigotry label at me. I have suffered the prejudices towards people who are "born that way" all my life but none of it changes the fact that I am responsible for the proper use of what free agency I do have.
As long as Affirmation and its supporters claim the one perk of mental illness (the reduced accountability for their actions) without accepting ANY of its drawbacks... as long as they refuse to advocate for research into treatments and possible cures for homosexuality or other mental illnesses... as long as their advocacy seems focussed entirely on gaining a legal special right for them to let thier illness control them without consequence, then I see no reason to take them seriously or have church leaders meet with them.
And don't throw the bigotry label at me. I have suffered the prejudices towards people who are "born that way" all my life but none of it changes the fact that I am responsible for the proper use of what free agency I do have.
Re: Brad.....what? | 3:45 p.m. Aug. 12, 2008
To the poster that said that the whispers were not subtle because "we
don't want you here".
What?
Are you a non-LDS person encouraging Brad to leave or you just a hateful, narrow-minded fool who thinks that Christ would approve of your post?
Brad, I'm LDS and if you're reading this, I'd shake your hand and church and you can sit by me.
What?
Are you a non-LDS person encouraging Brad to leave or you just a hateful, narrow-minded fool who thinks that Christ would approve of your post?
Brad, I'm LDS and if you're reading this, I'd shake your hand and church and you can sit by me.
WinSum | 3:42 p.m. Aug. 12, 2008
Just curious. Why do those not willling to live standards always want everyone
else to change to fit "their non-compiance?" Talk about a funny
mind-set...
Ample | 3:47 p.m. Aug. 12, 2008
This group make me wonder if they even reading the ample resources the church
has on this topic. They want more general conference talks, WHY? On the LDS
website I typed in homosexuality and got 190 hits. The second hit was a general
conference address by a member of the first presidency stating the position of
the church and testimony about not being born homosexual. Recently a church
pamplet came out called "God loveth His children," which discusses
homosexuality. This pamphlet is what should be given at their conference as the
address. "A letter to a friend" by Pres. Kimball is another pamphlet
on this topic. There is sufficient doctrine, helps, etc. provided by the church
on this topic. I agree that homosexuality should be treated privately in the
church, as for public, there has been plenty of talk already.
MEB | 3:47 p.m. Aug. 12, 2008
Ahma and re:Ahma. Both of you are an inspiration to me. We all have sin in our
lives, but some weaknesses are more difficult to overcome than others are. You
guys truly have a difficult road to travel in this life, and I have a deep
respect for your success so far.
That being said, there have been times in my life where I have been guilty of doing exactly what you and Brad describe. I have been unkind to those who are dealing with SSA, rather than showing more love support. Sure, I was kind to them in person, but then would make jokes about it behind their backs. Whether or not my comments ever got back to them, I don't know. Regardless, my comments certainly did nothing to help others' attitudes and perceptions of the situation.
Reading these comments today, and listening to your struggles has caused me to commit to bettering my behavior. I will be a better friend to those who struggle with this weakness.
Thank you for helping me see the error in my ways, and to try to become a better person.
That being said, there have been times in my life where I have been guilty of doing exactly what you and Brad describe. I have been unkind to those who are dealing with SSA, rather than showing more love support. Sure, I was kind to them in person, but then would make jokes about it behind their backs. Whether or not my comments ever got back to them, I don't know. Regardless, my comments certainly did nothing to help others' attitudes and perceptions of the situation.
Reading these comments today, and listening to your struggles has caused me to commit to bettering my behavior. I will be a better friend to those who struggle with this weakness.
Thank you for helping me see the error in my ways, and to try to become a better person.
Mormon psycho a fraud | 3:45 p.m. Aug. 12, 2008
Early-onset schizophrenia is indeed extremely rare and is often a mis-diagnosis
of schizoaffective disorder, which is even more debilitating.
One of the common symptoms of all schizoid disorders is the inability to form complete sentences and express thoughts coherently. The powerful antipsychotics that are indicated in schizoid disorders actually make this problem worse. Mormon psycho's post is coherent, and dishonest.
In 23 years of practice as a psychiatrist, I have never heard anyone claim that there are "perks" to schizophrenia, which is one of the most awful disorders anyone could suffer. Mentally ill people do not refer to themselves as "psycho."
I find it completely obscene that someone would pretend to suffer from severe mental illness in order to make a political point. Only criminals do that, and only if it is their only defense in court.
Shame on "Mormon psycho," whoever you are
One of the common symptoms of all schizoid disorders is the inability to form complete sentences and express thoughts coherently. The powerful antipsychotics that are indicated in schizoid disorders actually make this problem worse. Mormon psycho's post is coherent, and dishonest.
In 23 years of practice as a psychiatrist, I have never heard anyone claim that there are "perks" to schizophrenia, which is one of the most awful disorders anyone could suffer. Mentally ill people do not refer to themselves as "psycho."
I find it completely obscene that someone would pretend to suffer from severe mental illness in order to make a political point. Only criminals do that, and only if it is their only defense in court.
Shame on "Mormon psycho," whoever you are
Jay | 3:50 p.m. Aug. 12, 2008
No one is claiming a "perk of mental illness" here. No professional
medical or psychological association considers homosexuality a mental illness.
I don't think Affirmation is making that claim. A belief that one's
sexuality is inherent and immutable--whether genetic, from birth, or
developmental--does not mean it is a mental illness. Please let's not
confuse this discussion further by comparing it to legitimate mental illnesses.
Take Heed! | 3:53 p.m. Aug. 12, 2008
We need to understand that the leaders of the church are giving us the loving
version of forsaking this worldly sins,..before the dreadful day of the lord
comes and then there will be gnashing of teeths and you will praying for the
mountain to fall upon you to hide your shameful face.
Imagine! standing in front the creator and try to explain those urges.
Good luck!!
Imagine! standing in front the creator and try to explain those urges.
Good luck!!
To Gay LDS Male | 3:59 p.m. Aug. 12, 2008
Good for you! If you were heterosexual and not married you should not be having
sex with anyone either. I am so impressed that you know who you are, yet are
living in accordance to God's laws and seem to understand that. Many go
their whole lives without being married and without sex. Imagine that! Those
people don't go on without acting on their temptations. A happy life is
possible without sex and this man seems to get that. True happiness comes from
obedience. Congratulations to you for recognizing your temptations and
overcoming them. I have no doubt you will be blessed in our Father's
Kingdom for your recognition of and obedience to His commandments. All of us
should be so faithful-and less judgmental. I truly admire you.
Take a step back... | 4:03 p.m. Aug. 12, 2008
In reading these comments over the last three days I've been amazed at the
invective that's been hurled by all sides.
I'm not stating this as doctrine, but it occurs to me that whether the Lord intended it this way or not, same-sex attraction may be a watershed issue for aspiring disciples of Christ. We've all been granted weaknesses by the Lord (let's lay aside that some weaknesses when exposed cause considerably more shame and bigotry than others), per Ether 12:27. Could it be possible that part of our test is how we respond to others' weaknesses?
Does the fact that some God-given tendencies DO cause more revulsion than others excuse us from the commandment to love one another? Would you honestly be comfortable having YOUR own worst desires exposed to public view? Have you ever caught yourself recoiling from another person who got caught doing something you had once contemplated?
Granted the ever-important distinction between desire and action, wouldn't it behoove us to reach out to others who like us are trying to run the "good race", lest our own "foul" tendencies be shouted from the rooftops?
Here's to less invective, less condemnation and more acceptance and love.
I'm not stating this as doctrine, but it occurs to me that whether the Lord intended it this way or not, same-sex attraction may be a watershed issue for aspiring disciples of Christ. We've all been granted weaknesses by the Lord (let's lay aside that some weaknesses when exposed cause considerably more shame and bigotry than others), per Ether 12:27. Could it be possible that part of our test is how we respond to others' weaknesses?
Does the fact that some God-given tendencies DO cause more revulsion than others excuse us from the commandment to love one another? Would you honestly be comfortable having YOUR own worst desires exposed to public view? Have you ever caught yourself recoiling from another person who got caught doing something you had once contemplated?
Granted the ever-important distinction between desire and action, wouldn't it behoove us to reach out to others who like us are trying to run the "good race", lest our own "foul" tendencies be shouted from the rooftops?
Here's to less invective, less condemnation and more acceptance and love.
re: "mormon psycho a fraud" | 4:18 p.m. Aug. 12, 2008
I have been diagnosed as having schizoaffective disorder. I like to think that I
can form complete sentences and express thoughts coherently. Well come to think
of it, I�m on some pretty good medication right now that
hopefully helps. and i have been doing well for a little while now. I will
agree, that I have yet to find the perks associated with a mental illness. All
it has caused me and my family is a lot of pain and suffering. Umm, but how did
this turn into posts about mental illness? I thought it was about Same Sex
Attraction.
suzyk | 4:24 p.m. Aug. 12, 2008
To "Sue". We are taught to restrain ourselves and control our
thoughts and have been given great counsel how to do that. If we are truly
prayerful, remorseful and want to overcome a big challenge we can if we choose
or we won't if we also choose. Those who profess being "gay" are
choosing this sickness. They were not sent here with that as a child. They
choose to go along with it instead of fighting against it. By living this kind
of life they are choosing it. They were not born with it. We are born in the
image of God and God is not "gay". God loves all of his children, but
has given us the freedom of choice which does not let you choose the
consequences.
Mormon Psycho | 4:37 p.m. Aug. 12, 2008
I find it appalling that someone would lie about being a psychiatrist just to
score cheap points on an internet message board.
And I know that you are lying sir. Because no true psychiatrist would dare claim to be able to accurately diagnose someone based on less than 100 type-written words (it took more than a decade of regular meetings, tests, hospitalizations and a dozen different medications before I was diagnosed).
And yes, homosexuality, if it is caused by a physical defect, is an illness. Wether the medical community wishes to regard it as such or not. The medical community needs to get back on the horse and start doing what needs to be done to truly help these people rather than abandon them to thier compulsions and chastise anyone who objects to their failures.
And I know that you are lying sir. Because no true psychiatrist would dare claim to be able to accurately diagnose someone based on less than 100 type-written words (it took more than a decade of regular meetings, tests, hospitalizations and a dozen different medications before I was diagnosed).
And yes, homosexuality, if it is caused by a physical defect, is an illness. Wether the medical community wishes to regard it as such or not. The medical community needs to get back on the horse and start doing what needs to be done to truly help these people rather than abandon them to thier compulsions and chastise anyone who objects to their failures.
Bigot | 5:47 p.m. Aug. 12, 2008
You people act like mormons are the only people who find being queer dispicable.
News is their are a lot of us who respect mormons for their stance especially in
the boy scout program. Keep up the fight.
james | 6:05 p.m. Aug. 12, 2008
To all those smug Mormons who say....this is God, no public pressure nor meetins
can change doctrine. RIGHT. I am sure with blacks and pologamy public pressure
had nothing to do with it. The LDS Church feels public pressure and occasionally
caves like most other organizations. Stop being so smug.
Ashamed | 6:30 p.m. Aug. 12, 2008
"Do unto others as you'd have them do to you"
"Love thy neighbor as thyself"
"Judge not lest you be judged"
Considering the awful things I've read here, those guys in Affirmation are not just completely justified in petitioning the church leaders, this is something long overdue. What hateful people you are in that church.
The only thing being asked of anyone is to be kinder to your fellow human beings. The unholy invective spewed at your fellow citizens, the gay community, is so out of line with the example and teachings of Christ, that I don't know how you sleep at night.
By de-humanizing you fellow man, you prove that you are not Christian.
I've read today that giving equal benefits to homosexuals will "interfere with my ability to practice my religion". If your religion requires demeaning and marginalizing others, you need to leave this country and join the Taliban.
"By their acts shall ye know them"
"Love thy neighbor as thyself"
"Judge not lest you be judged"
Considering the awful things I've read here, those guys in Affirmation are not just completely justified in petitioning the church leaders, this is something long overdue. What hateful people you are in that church.
The only thing being asked of anyone is to be kinder to your fellow human beings. The unholy invective spewed at your fellow citizens, the gay community, is so out of line with the example and teachings of Christ, that I don't know how you sleep at night.
By de-humanizing you fellow man, you prove that you are not Christian.
I've read today that giving equal benefits to homosexuals will "interfere with my ability to practice my religion". If your religion requires demeaning and marginalizing others, you need to leave this country and join the Taliban.
"By their acts shall ye know them"
RE psycho | 6:37 p.m. Aug. 12, 2008
It has been known for decades that there is no physical or chemical defect
causing homosexuality, unlike your illness. Too bad you don't give others
the respect/tolerance you feel you deserve.
Like all the other homophobes posting here.
Like all the other homophobes posting here.
To "The Rock" 9:51 | 6:54 p.m. Aug. 12, 2008
It appears to be the fashionable thing now for mormon men to "come
out" and admit they had a fleeting flirt with homosexual attraction, as in
your 5 second thoughts you so "valiantly" overcame.
Sorry to burst your sense of self worship, but a 5 second thought is NOT struggling with same sex attraction! To pretend so is a slap in the face to those who really do struggle with it.
Getting out of Utah is the best thing I ever did.
Sorry to burst your sense of self worship, but a 5 second thought is NOT struggling with same sex attraction! To pretend so is a slap in the face to those who really do struggle with it.
Getting out of Utah is the best thing I ever did.
Southern CA Porter Rockwell | 7:17 p.m. Aug. 12, 2008
This is in response to MY SLC 7:48 PM on 8-11-08. You wrote:
"What the church tells its members is their business. As long as the church tries to influence a constitutional amendment that affects US citizens rights I will fight it as I can."
The citizens of the State of California voted for passed Proposition 22 in 2000 which stated marriage is between a MAN and a WOMAN. In a scene straight out of a communist country, the California State Supreme Court over turned the people's vote and allowed same gender marriage. You make reference as what the CHURCH tells and influences ...have you forgotten? It is Heavenly Father revealing HIS will to His prophets, seers and revelators on preserving to keep HIS ordinance of marriage between His sons and daughters sacred. Why do you chose to mock Him?
Needless to say, concerned christians from all denominations in the State of California will vote yes on Proposition 8.
"What the church tells its members is their business. As long as the church tries to influence a constitutional amendment that affects US citizens rights I will fight it as I can."
The citizens of the State of California voted for passed Proposition 22 in 2000 which stated marriage is between a MAN and a WOMAN. In a scene straight out of a communist country, the California State Supreme Court over turned the people's vote and allowed same gender marriage. You make reference as what the CHURCH tells and influences ...have you forgotten? It is Heavenly Father revealing HIS will to His prophets, seers and revelators on preserving to keep HIS ordinance of marriage between His sons and daughters sacred. Why do you chose to mock Him?
Needless to say, concerned christians from all denominations in the State of California will vote yes on Proposition 8.
Jon Halverson | 7:48 p.m. Aug. 12, 2008
As a committed member of the LDS Church, I am shocked and saddened by all the
un-Christian comments written here. Brothers and sisters, it is obvious that you
are not even attempting to understand the position of Affirmation, but rather
you are quick to criticize something you know little about--using your
understanding of LDS theology as justification. While you may not believe
homosexual behavior is appropriate, don't you think you could be more
respectful to your fellow members of the faith? The God I believe in would be
saddened to see his children treat each other this way.
DW | 7:50 p.m. Aug. 12, 2008
I am encouraged by most of these posts and patient with the others. I am not
gay, but I empathize with anyone who is judged harshly by someone else or judged
at all. I am the first to admit that I judged homesexuals and was afraid of them
and I am glad that I have changed. It has been my experience that I am afraid
of people or things that I do not attempt to understand, so I would be amiss to
judge those of you who seem to be judging others harshly here. To you who do
not seem to understand a person's wrestle with SSA or any other difficult
challenge, I say... just wait... will likely change your tone over your
lifetime. Once you have been through any difficult experience in life you learn
that to judge another and speak with any ill is futile. At judgement you will
not judge me and you will not judge anyone else, you and I will only look to the
Savior for help and He will be there. Bottom line: Let this group make their
proposals in peace. I believe in my Mormon faith and I believe in love.
What if? | 8:00 p.m. Aug. 12, 2008
To James: You bring up a very intriguing point. It is incomprehensible that the
church would accept a gay lifestyle with so many scriptures denouncing
homosexuality, but I assume the feelings were very similar leading up to 1978
(and caused quite a stir among those select racist members at the time). I
don't think the doctrine of the church will change in reference to
homosexuality, but it certainly gives one pause to think what if.
Mormon Psycho | 8:05 p.m. Aug. 12, 2008
RE psycho | 6:37 p.m.
If there is no physical or chemical cause for homosexuality, then they cannot claim to have been "born that way". And that is not the current thinking by the gay community and the majority of the medical and scientific communities.
As for intolerance on my part, I fail to see where you got that from because I don't feel it.
The gay community has a huge advantage over the mentally ill in that they have shown a tremendous capacity far beyond their actual numbers to organize and advocate their position. If they had spent the last half-century asking for research into treatments instead of "affirmation" both they and people like me would be so much farther ahead.
Any technology wich could reliably cure homosexuality would have tremendous applications in treating other mental illnesses. However, the leaders of the gay community will never tolerate the development of a pill which would take away from them their followers and their political power.
Thus, both gays and people like me continue to suffer needlessly.
If there is no physical or chemical cause for homosexuality, then they cannot claim to have been "born that way". And that is not the current thinking by the gay community and the majority of the medical and scientific communities.
As for intolerance on my part, I fail to see where you got that from because I don't feel it.
The gay community has a huge advantage over the mentally ill in that they have shown a tremendous capacity far beyond their actual numbers to organize and advocate their position. If they had spent the last half-century asking for research into treatments instead of "affirmation" both they and people like me would be so much farther ahead.
Any technology wich could reliably cure homosexuality would have tremendous applications in treating other mental illnesses. However, the leaders of the gay community will never tolerate the development of a pill which would take away from them their followers and their political power.
Thus, both gays and people like me continue to suffer needlessly.
to Mormon psycho | 8:12 p.m. Aug. 12, 2008
Thanks, great post!
to understand homosexuality | 8:18 p.m. Aug. 12, 2008
Read some of Bert Hellinger's books on the family constellation. The family
dynamic have a lot to do with a persons same gender attraction. It is quite
interesting to study and there is help before this same gender attraction is
acted out upon. To get help early would be important unless one enjoys the same
gender attraction and doesn't want to get "help." I understand
the same gender attraction but I am still completely for a marriage being
between a man and a woman! It is the best basic for happiness and raising a
family.
Just Wondering... | 8:24 p.m. Aug. 12, 2008
If the Church is true, then the Proclamation on the Family is the will of God.
If the Proclamation on the Family is the Word of God, the act or the thought of
homosexuality is sinful and is not open to debate.
If the Church is not true, homosexuals should be glad to distance themselves from a falsehood.
It is that simple. There is NO grey area...which leads me to wonder, "Why all the fuss from so many on that particular side which claim to want to remain LDS, but can't because the Church won't see it their way?"
If the Church is not true, homosexuals should be glad to distance themselves from a falsehood.
It is that simple. There is NO grey area...which leads me to wonder, "Why all the fuss from so many on that particular side which claim to want to remain LDS, but can't because the Church won't see it their way?"
To The Rock | 8:31 p.m. Aug. 12, 2008
Funny...I don't live in Utah but would love to. I just spoke with another
man, non-LDS...who would love to live there. I don't think the Utah
population is decreasing. Why not?
From my perspective, Utah has great, friendly people, good old fashioned values, incredible scenic mountains, rivers and lakes, and so much more. If you're glad you left, great. There are those of us who would love to live in the great State of Utah (but I live in Oregon and love it just as much).
From my perspective, Utah has great, friendly people, good old fashioned values, incredible scenic mountains, rivers and lakes, and so much more. If you're glad you left, great. There are those of us who would love to live in the great State of Utah (but I live in Oregon and love it just as much).
Rationalanimal | 9:09 p.m. Aug. 12, 2008
Vice is a monster of so frightful mien, As to be hated needs but to be seen; Yet
seen too oft, familiar with her face, we first endure, then pity, then
embrace.
Homosexuality is an abomination in the eyes of God. To ask the Church to change its position is to attempt to change natural law itself. Between two positions relative to man and God, it is not God that must move.
Homosexuality is an abomination in the eyes of God. To ask the Church to change its position is to attempt to change natural law itself. Between two positions relative to man and God, it is not God that must move.
An appeal | 9:08 p.m. Aug. 12, 2008
to good people who are not of the Mormon faith: it would be good if you could
have enough understanding, even if you think us wrong, to consider the
possiblity that our beliefs on this fraught issue may not simply mean we are
bigots.
An appeal to my fellow faithful Mormons:
No need to denounce anybody. I assent to official church doctrine in this as in all matters, and accept that homosexual behvior is divinely proscribed. I similarly assent to the divine injunction to treat all people with love. I am (thankfully!) completely free of the responsiblity of judging them, and utterly incompetent to do so. The only person whose behavior I can change is my own, and it is the work of a lifetime.
So please, to non-Mormons: can you muster enough understand to resist calling us bigots?
And to fellow Mormons: complete fidelity to the gospel does not mean you have to condemn or mistreat anyone who does not share your views.
Thanks.
An appeal to my fellow faithful Mormons:
No need to denounce anybody. I assent to official church doctrine in this as in all matters, and accept that homosexual behvior is divinely proscribed. I similarly assent to the divine injunction to treat all people with love. I am (thankfully!) completely free of the responsiblity of judging them, and utterly incompetent to do so. The only person whose behavior I can change is my own, and it is the work of a lifetime.
So please, to non-Mormons: can you muster enough understand to resist calling us bigots?
And to fellow Mormons: complete fidelity to the gospel does not mean you have to condemn or mistreat anyone who does not share your views.
Thanks.
To Cheryl and others | 9:17 p.m. Aug. 12, 2008
One thing you gay people do that drives me crazy is you always want to bathe in
self pity.. You claim that your trial is sooo much worse than some one
else....It is just sickening!!!!
Skeptic | 9:32 p.m. Aug. 12, 2008
Affirmation said it wants to work with the church to develop resource materials
for bishops to better and more consistently deal with gay and lesbian members
who seek counseling. Would this include resource materials for helping gay
people change who want to change? Probably not. Affirmation probably
subscribes to gay dogma that gay people cannot change, despite considerable
evidence to the contrary that some can and do change.
re: Brad | 11:00 p.m. Aug. 12, 2008
>>I felt ostracized.. people talking about me behind my back... church
expects much of gay members�lifelong celibacy and
loneliness�-members were not supportive or accepting of me
and my struggle.
===
Brad, I found your comments compelling and sympathetic. I wondered how your experience may have been entirely different if no one knew of your inner feelings. Why did you tell them? Why look to members for support and affirmation? I've lived in a plethora of wards, and rarely have found interpersonal support from members. LDS tend to be highly judgmental even of those "like themselves" - and OF themselves, I might add. Self-acceptance is not an easy thing for the modern Mormon; they are under a lot of pressure. Any time you move to a new place, you have the chance to start your life over. No one knows you or has latent expectations for you. Go somewhere and be anonymous. Tell them the love of your life is dead - maybe they will leave you alone. Too many people of ALL walks of life are becoming alienated from activity in the church because there is too little warmth and compassion. Very sad. "O Jerusalem... But ye would not..."
===
Brad, I found your comments compelling and sympathetic. I wondered how your experience may have been entirely different if no one knew of your inner feelings. Why did you tell them? Why look to members for support and affirmation? I've lived in a plethora of wards, and rarely have found interpersonal support from members. LDS tend to be highly judgmental even of those "like themselves" - and OF themselves, I might add. Self-acceptance is not an easy thing for the modern Mormon; they are under a lot of pressure. Any time you move to a new place, you have the chance to start your life over. No one knows you or has latent expectations for you. Go somewhere and be anonymous. Tell them the love of your life is dead - maybe they will leave you alone. Too many people of ALL walks of life are becoming alienated from activity in the church because there is too little warmth and compassion. Very sad. "O Jerusalem... But ye would not..."
Judy | 11:08 p.m. Aug. 12, 2008
May God bless all of you struggling facing this challenge. If you are sincere
in your intentions to overcome this trial you are welcome to worship with me and
be a friend. And may those of us who are members of the church who are
expressing such harshness repent. With what judgement you judge ye shall be
judged. We will be judged on our hearts, not just our actions. There was only
one perfect Savior that has the right to pass judgement. The rest of us are all
needy and dependent upon his love and mercy after all we can do. Our job is to
love and support each other with Christ's love. The spirit will do the
fixing. You cannot have the spirit with such feelings. Do you realize that you
are working for darkness by spouting recklessly your anger and trying to
represent the LDS/Mormon church which is Christ's church. Such anger does
NOT represent the Savior, his church or its members! Yes. It is a sin. We all
have things to work on. You can't be so judgemental and have purity of
heart.
to Ashamed | 1:33 a.m. Aug. 13, 2008
You are hiding behind this one issue to justify your hatred towards the Mormon
faith. Yes there were some mean spirited comments by some Mormons but there were
also some comments that were full of love and yes Christ like theology. We are
all different. Just like other faiths we have good ones and bad ones. I find it
ironic that while condemning all of us you talk of being kind to your fellow
man. You reacted to only the comments that gave you justification to show your
feeling towards the Mormon faith which shows prejudice. I would like to
reiterate that the comments that were made showed all kinds of opinions (key
word here opinion). We could all use a little more kindness towards each other
even towards us Mormons.
to Judy | 3:41 a.m. Aug. 13, 2008
Thank you Judy for your healing words. I, like you, am saddened by the
divisive, hateful comments many have shared herein. I am one who is trying my
very best to live the standard that Christ taught. They simply don't
understand how hard it is. I'm a returned missionary and active in my
ward. I love my Savior and I want to follow him. But my natural urges, my
"natural man," make it so hard. We all have a natural man to fight.
It's just a lot harder for those of us who suffer from same-gender
attraction. The last thing we need is hate.
If only church members could love the sinner and hate the sin. If only they could learn the difference between feeling same-gender attraction and acting upon it. If only they could see that the vast majority of us in the church who feel same-gender attraction DO NOT act upon it.
If only church members could love the sinner and hate the sin. If only they could learn the difference between feeling same-gender attraction and acting upon it. If only they could see that the vast majority of us in the church who feel same-gender attraction DO NOT act upon it.
Anonymous | 8:44 a.m. Aug. 13, 2008
"If only church members could love the sinner and hate the sin."
Why doesn't the church help a little more in this area? Just saying that line does not show members HOW to do this. I think that most members HATE the sin and somewhat TOLERATE the sinner. We are told to LOVE the sinner. Do they feel that love? Are we accepting of them? Do they know that they are a part of our eternal family? I think we need more instruction here. It is so much easier to ignore or shun someone we know is not living like we think they should than to truly LOVE them. We are taught (especially when we are young) to avoid even the appearance of evil and hanging out with a sinner might be construed to be appearing to be evil. How does the church want us to LOVE these people?
Why doesn't the church help a little more in this area? Just saying that line does not show members HOW to do this. I think that most members HATE the sin and somewhat TOLERATE the sinner. We are told to LOVE the sinner. Do they feel that love? Are we accepting of them? Do they know that they are a part of our eternal family? I think we need more instruction here. It is so much easier to ignore or shun someone we know is not living like we think they should than to truly LOVE them. We are taught (especially when we are young) to avoid even the appearance of evil and hanging out with a sinner might be construed to be appearing to be evil. How does the church want us to LOVE these people?
I have to wonder | 12:26 p.m. Aug. 13, 2008
...if this group is really committed to constructive dialogue or if they just
want attention. They haven't done any favors for the Gay LDS community by
bringing this to the media. It trivializes the true struggle of many worthy,
gay members. If they were serious, they would have met with the church when the
meeting was initially scheduled months ago. By whining to the media, they only
make themselves look bad.
John Pack Lambert | 3:18 p.m. Aug. 13, 2008
To the 8:30 AM commentator,
If such a thing happened in your ward than the bishop violated trust and acted inapropirately. If you are not the person involved though, there may be more involved than you admit, but I still do not think the situation was handled correctly.
However based on other people's comments what you have said is not a universal situation. That some people in the church make mistakes in judgement and act inapropriately, even some who have been called as bishops and stake presidents we are not deneying.
However in light of the pamphlet "God Loveth His Children" and Elder Holland's October 2007 Ensign article on the issue, there does not seem to be a need for more sending out of doctrine but one for more study of doctrines that have already been explained.
Another issue that needs to be addressed is that there is a much higher rate of child sexual abuse that is same gender than opposite gender. This is not to say that all homosexuals are child abusers by any means, but there needs to be a realistic willingness to face this uncomfortable fact without yelling "bigot".
If such a thing happened in your ward than the bishop violated trust and acted inapropirately. If you are not the person involved though, there may be more involved than you admit, but I still do not think the situation was handled correctly.
However based on other people's comments what you have said is not a universal situation. That some people in the church make mistakes in judgement and act inapropriately, even some who have been called as bishops and stake presidents we are not deneying.
However in light of the pamphlet "God Loveth His Children" and Elder Holland's October 2007 Ensign article on the issue, there does not seem to be a need for more sending out of doctrine but one for more study of doctrines that have already been explained.
Another issue that needs to be addressed is that there is a much higher rate of child sexual abuse that is same gender than opposite gender. This is not to say that all homosexuals are child abusers by any means, but there needs to be a realistic willingness to face this uncomfortable fact without yelling "bigot".
John Pack Lambert | 3:24 p.m. Aug. 13, 2008
Do I have an answer to the need to recognize that same-gender attraction is
not the same as child abuse but also the need to prevent child abuse, scandal,
protect children from attack, and prevent the church from being crippled by
lawsuits like other organizations have been? No, I do not.
We have to have faith in the power of people to follow right. We have to distance ourselves from the false theories that some put forth that a certain church has suffered from this issues due to its focus on celibacy.
The fact of the matter is that most sexual abuse of children is done by men married to women attacking step children. However I have at least read that the rate of child abuse among homosexuals is higher, that the willingness to admit attraction to teenagers is higher and so forth. Whether the second fact reflects the truth about attraction to teenagers or the amount and willingness to respond to societal taboos against such things I can not say.
What we need is dialogues where we can mention our concerns that are based on legitimate reasearch and be confronted with reasoned response instead of calls of "bigot".
We have to have faith in the power of people to follow right. We have to distance ourselves from the false theories that some put forth that a certain church has suffered from this issues due to its focus on celibacy.
The fact of the matter is that most sexual abuse of children is done by men married to women attacking step children. However I have at least read that the rate of child abuse among homosexuals is higher, that the willingness to admit attraction to teenagers is higher and so forth. Whether the second fact reflects the truth about attraction to teenagers or the amount and willingness to respond to societal taboos against such things I can not say.
What we need is dialogues where we can mention our concerns that are based on legitimate reasearch and be confronted with reasoned response instead of calls of "bigot".
John Pack Lambert | 3:49 p.m. Aug. 13, 2008
To Ilka,
I urge you to read Elder Holland's October 2007 talk where he points out that it is part of the Plan of Salvation for man and woman to be together.
The church can not and will not countenance displays of homosexual attachement in public. Homosexual reations are sinful. Until you are willing to accept that homosexual behavior is wrong and build your actions around that fact there will be people who feel the church is not a welcoming enough environment. However the goal of the church is not to make us content with who we are, but to raise us to a higher level of existence.
I urge you to read Elder Holland's October 2007 talk where he points out that it is part of the Plan of Salvation for man and woman to be together.
The church can not and will not countenance displays of homosexual attachement in public. Homosexual reations are sinful. Until you are willing to accept that homosexual behavior is wrong and build your actions around that fact there will be people who feel the church is not a welcoming enough environment. However the goal of the church is not to make us content with who we are, but to raise us to a higher level of existence.
John Pack Lambert | 4:44 p.m. Aug. 13, 2008
To James,
Those of you who think that Spencer W. Kimball reieved a revelation because of public pressure have no clue. If Spencer W. Kimball was just responding to his own feelings and public pressure the revelation would have come in the first few months of his time as president of the church, not more than four years into his administration.
Beyond this your whole view strikes of grave Amero-centricism. To men like Spencer W. Kimball the beganing problem was how could the gospel be taken to every nation, kindred, tongue and people and preached to every man in his own language if the priesthood could not be held by every worthy male?
Those who even see an analogy between same gender attraction and people of African descent totally do not understand one or both conditions.
Finally those who think that the writtings of Lester Bush and other intellectuals had any effect on Spencer W. Kimball forget that it was more likely the existence of the faithful members in the Genesis Group, the existance of faithful members in Brazil and the letters from faithful waiters in Africa that caused him to plead with the Lord on the topic.
Those of you who think that Spencer W. Kimball reieved a revelation because of public pressure have no clue. If Spencer W. Kimball was just responding to his own feelings and public pressure the revelation would have come in the first few months of his time as president of the church, not more than four years into his administration.
Beyond this your whole view strikes of grave Amero-centricism. To men like Spencer W. Kimball the beganing problem was how could the gospel be taken to every nation, kindred, tongue and people and preached to every man in his own language if the priesthood could not be held by every worthy male?
Those who even see an analogy between same gender attraction and people of African descent totally do not understand one or both conditions.
Finally those who think that the writtings of Lester Bush and other intellectuals had any effect on Spencer W. Kimball forget that it was more likely the existence of the faithful members in the Genesis Group, the existance of faithful members in Brazil and the letters from faithful waiters in Africa that caused him to plead with the Lord on the topic.
John Pack Lambert | 4:49 p.m. Aug. 13, 2008
To Mr. Halvorsen,
It seems that you have not considered the full story of Affirmation. While some people's attacks on it are definantly overboard, you must bear in mind their broader agenda.
They had the audacity to urge the church not to make a statement on Proposition 8. This shows that they do not value or believe in the church's counsel on supporting marriage. They believe that we should stop telling people that it is possible that some of them can overcome same gender attraction and have attraction to the other sex. While we need to remember that there are people who will not ever overcome same gender attraction or feel sexually attracted to the other sex in this life, there are also those who will.
If people dealing with masterbation and pornography were told that they had no chance to heal and were doomed to be plaged by it the rest of their lives, more would probably commit suicide on the theory it is better to stop the sin before it gets worse.
I agree with the previous poster that Affirmation's message of no ability to be cured is a contributing factor to suicide by church members.
It seems that you have not considered the full story of Affirmation. While some people's attacks on it are definantly overboard, you must bear in mind their broader agenda.
They had the audacity to urge the church not to make a statement on Proposition 8. This shows that they do not value or believe in the church's counsel on supporting marriage. They believe that we should stop telling people that it is possible that some of them can overcome same gender attraction and have attraction to the other sex. While we need to remember that there are people who will not ever overcome same gender attraction or feel sexually attracted to the other sex in this life, there are also those who will.
If people dealing with masterbation and pornography were told that they had no chance to heal and were doomed to be plaged by it the rest of their lives, more would probably commit suicide on the theory it is better to stop the sin before it gets worse.
I agree with the previous poster that Affirmation's message of no ability to be cured is a contributing factor to suicide by church members.
John Pack Lambert | 7:41 p.m. Aug. 13, 2008
To 3:41 commentor,
You do have good points. I think that people would be better served if there was more love.
However, I have on this board seen places where statements along the lines of yours have been refered to as "bigoted". Specifically the love the sin but hate the sinner line.
It makes it hard to keep a balanced position when putting it forward elicits calls of "bigot".
I have to agree some people in the church need to feel more love for their fellow men. However some of the hate mongering comments on here I hope were not written by church members. If they are, then there are people who need to start following the real prophets of God more than they follow the false prophets of political hate.
I think too often we let our conversation be in the way of the world instead of being built around the teachings of the Lord. I have at times been too shrill and too sarcastic and cutting, and would like to apologize for having been so.
You do have good points. I think that people would be better served if there was more love.
However, I have on this board seen places where statements along the lines of yours have been refered to as "bigoted". Specifically the love the sin but hate the sinner line.
It makes it hard to keep a balanced position when putting it forward elicits calls of "bigot".
I have to agree some people in the church need to feel more love for their fellow men. However some of the hate mongering comments on here I hope were not written by church members. If they are, then there are people who need to start following the real prophets of God more than they follow the false prophets of political hate.
I think too often we let our conversation be in the way of the world instead of being built around the teachings of the Lord. I have at times been too shrill and too sarcastic and cutting, and would like to apologize for having been so.
Anonymous | 7:51 a.m. Aug. 14, 2008
LDS Church leaders are encouraging Mormons to amend California's
Constitution to eliminate right of same-sex couples to marry.
How exactly is campaigning to eliminate someone else's right NOT an act of hate and bigotry? Calling it love doesn't make it so.
How exactly is campaigning to eliminate someone else's right NOT an act of hate and bigotry? Calling it love doesn't make it so.
It's difficult | 4:45 p.m. Aug. 14, 2008
It's difficult for me not to think that there are certain ulterior motives
with this group. When we pray, we must always remember that God is the same,
and that it is us who need changing, not God. We need to know how we can change
and repent, and we need to become what God wants us to become. We can't
make God become something less than what he is and will be for forever.
It's just difficult for me to read the story and though their negotiation
skills are entirely non-confrontational, I yet simply sense that there are
ulterior motives, and that this group is really wanting to somehow claim an
authority that is not theres.
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Some do suffer from bigotry. That includes references to their sex lives as sinful, and the ghastly pretense that somehow denying a person equal protection under the law is an act of love.
The sanctimonious pretense that someone's god told him or her to deny gay men and women equal protection under the law, is beyond mere bigotry and stupidity.
What a shame these sanctimonious, ignorant, ultra-bigots cannot see the damage they do to innocent gay Americans when they use the state to force their so-called morality on others.