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Gay support group outlines requests to LDS Church

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G | 7:08 a.m. Aug. 12, 2008

I think that the word CLEAN; physically, academically, socially, emotionally, sexually, spiritually, is one of my favorite words.

To: ahma and re:ahma | 7:27 a.m. Aug. 12, 2008

You are inspirations. Having a brother who died of AIDS I know many who are gay. I know they do not choose to have those attractions but they can choose what they will do with them. Many succumb but some manage to work at controlling their desires.

I count those who struggle with this problem and do their best to keep God's standards as unsung heroes in the Church.

To others who are struggling you know the meaning of enduring to the end. All of us truly do have our crosses to bear in this life and God understands them and will take them into account when judgement is made. The judgement He will make will have more to do with the honest desires of our heart to do right more so than actually having done what is right.

Our duty is to do our very best to comply with His teachings and we will succeed. The atonement will take care of where we fell short as long as our heart was right.

Some in the Church who struggle with prejudice against those with this problem are also loved by God and hopefully someday will be more accepting.

Chris Wentzell | 7:26 a.m. Aug. 12, 2008

Years ago I was sunday school teacher to a young man who told me that since childhood, he pictured himself married to and having children with a man. SSA is not lust, it is just attraction, similar to the natural attraction between a man and woman. The scriptures are clear, any sexual activity outside of marriage between a man and woman is sin.

Comments continue below

John | 8:11 p.m | 8:03 a.m. Aug. 12, 2008

The difference John is the "holier than thou" people you reference are not using the media to try and further their self-righteous agenda. We all have vices, but we all tend to be a little skeptical of those who run straight to the media in an attempt to deflect and prey upon the public's sympatheties.

ahma | 8:25 a.m. Aug. 12, 2008

To: to ahma and re: ahma
Thank you so much for indicating your belief that people like me who struggle with ssa are "unsung hereos" of the church. You can't even begin to know how validating that statement is to me. We suffer in silence for the most part because we fear being ostracized by members and nonmembers of the church alike. Every once in a while kind, compassionate people like yourself step forward to help us. By the way, the Church doesn't cause us to be suicidal - Satan does!

Anonymous | 8:30 a.m. Aug. 12, 2008

As soon as you let it out that you have "same-sex attraction", even in a "confidential" Bishop's interview, you are branded and marginalized in the Ward and Stake. Because of the stereotypes and misunderstandings, everybody thinks it is just a matter of time and opportunity before you take advantage of a primary child. They think you are a child-molester. The Bishop shares the information with his counselors and auxiliary leaders, and the gossip network in the Ward and Stake leadership takes it to every home. It is the ugliest part of the Church. It is horrible and ruins people's lives. Once you are branded with "the scarlet letter", people stop talking to you, you get no callings, and you become an outsider. Is it any wonder some who experience SSA take their own lives?

Simon Says | 8:38 a.m. Aug. 12, 2008

What exactly does this group want? Do they want to be able to openly be in same-sex relationships attending Church, the Temple, teaching primary, youth sunday school etc. or do they just want the Church to accept that some people are homosexual by nature?

It just seems that they want sensational publicity, along with some or other person saying it's ok to be homosexual. Live your own life guys, if you choose to be gay, then live with it, don't look for validation. Be yourselves, and take the consequences - good or bad.

Kent Parsons | 8:49 a.m. Aug. 12, 2008

People with same gender attraction issues draw far too much attention to themselves. They are no different than the rest of us with other desires and problems and they do not deserve any special attention. Affirmation loves the media and their recent actions prove this. They are all about the "big show" rather than genuine and sincere dialogue.

John in FL | 8:49 a.m. Aug. 12, 2008

Interesting comments! I believe that the Lord would have us love everyone. However if my "friend" flaunted in my face his desire and acts to be immoral with women ' I would struggle big time to be able to accept him as a friend. If he admitted to me that what he was doing was wrong and ask that I be a friend to help him, I hope I would be the first to support him and accept him. I likewise feel that same desire to be a friend to a homosexual trying to make a change in their life. There is a lot of difference between having desires and acting out those desires. Also the same goes for those who make mistakes and repent or those who try to justify the mistakes.

Change | 8:50 a.m. Aug. 12, 2008

SSA is something I would never want to have to deal with and I hope that those who do will have the strength to overcome the attraction. God loves all of his children, but he is not a comprimising and changing God. We are the ones who have to change and it is not always easy.

Simon Says | 8:53 a.m. Aug. 12, 2008

Just another thought, Why should the LDS Church meet with a group that so obviously does not want to adhere to the Church principles and doctrines. Why is it made out to be a "sin" for the LDS Church not to accept homosexuality? I have a cousin and a friend who have both died of AIDS as a result of homosexuality, so I am not one of those who stands back with no empathy or concern.

If these people want to be actively homosexual, go ahead, but do not demand a religion to change becaus eyou cannot or do not want to live its teachings. I cannot expect to be able to break the law of chastity and have the church condone my behavior anyt more than this group can.

AL | 8:54 a.m. Aug. 12, 2008

All of us have trials in our lives. Some deal with drug addiction, some with alcholism, some with pornography. Homosexuality is pornography. It is a way for Satan to negatively influence the children of a loving Heavenly Father. We can and do have issues every one of us. It is how we deal with it weather we give in to these tendancies or use restraint and chose to overcome our own deamons. It is appanent that homosexuals have chosen this forum to not deal with their problems, but for their own convenience, they are seeking approval of the LDS church. How arrogant.

While not wanting to judge any one person, which is the Lord's way. It is the responsibily of everyone to condone the act. The brethren have often spoke in General Conference pleading with the members to overcome adversities. Homosexuality is an adversity. If you are a member of the church with these tendancies, you have been instructed likewise. Repent of your evil ways or start your own church and leave us alone!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

SML-PDX | 9:00 a.m. Aug. 12, 2008

I think this group has legitimate concerns to first be addressed privately with the Church. I believe Affirmation just shot themselves in the foot by making public demands. Each of those demands may have been granted by the Church but they are now unlikely to be granted. Does anyone remember the "King and I" when Anna made a public demand to stop an execution and then ran to the King to stop it? He could have stopped it if she had first gone privately to the King.

Sufud Namyag | 9:03 a.m. Aug. 12, 2008

I think that most of the anti-LDS comments here are misdirected. The LDS church recognizes that there are many members who may have homosexual thoughts or desires. It teaches that those thoughts or desires ar not in and of themselves a problem and would not prohibit that person from holding a temple recommend. However, any sexual activity outside of the bonds of marriage is not permitted. This covers all relationships including those which hetrosexual in nature. The church further teaches that marriage is recognized to exist only between a man or a woman.

At the end of the day, if a person lives teh law of chastity, the church has no issues.

ILKA | 9:18 a.m. Aug. 12, 2008

I wish the church would just let us be part of it but also let us behave the way we want. I just cannot understand why it won't change so that I can participate and still live with my partner, Winkie. We are all people and children of our Lord. Let me sit by him in church and hold his hand like Bob and Mary do!

mothersisterfriend | 9:21 a.m. Aug. 12, 2008

I am a convert to the church and the only member in my family. My sister is gay. We have a wonderful relationship, she is one of my best friends. She has found the LDS people are more tolerant and kind than many religions. There are many people who hate and want to harm homosexuals. I think most members of the church, feel as I do. That whether you are gay or straight, you are a child of God and I love you. My sister's sexual orientation is seldom discussed, we are simply sisters and friends.

AL | 9:27 a.m. Aug. 12, 2008

To Anonymous @ 8:30 AM:

It is the responsibility of every one to overcome their own trials in this life, and no one has the right to blame the church, as a whole, for their own decisions to commit suiside or to do any other form of destrucion to themselves.

There are programs. offered by the church and others, to deal with these problems, such as counseling, fasting/prayer, speaking candidly with loving Bishops with a remorse for ones own sins. The way back is not promised to be easy but worth it.

The Lord loves everyone, but will always condone sin. His soul purpose to get us all back in his presense. Does the Bible not state that the shepard will leave the ninety and nine and go after the one lost sheep? Homosexuals are "the one lost sheep" in this case. He will heal you if you seek forgivness through the blood of the Atonement of Jesus Christ, who has already paid for your sin and mine with his own blood, because he loves us and we are all worth it...........

Mike | 9:34 a.m. Aug. 12, 2008

To "Affirmation" at 1:57: When exactly did you "choose" to be heterosexual?

Talk in Gen. Conf? | 10:10 a.m. Aug. 12, 2008

Be careful what you ask for...you just might get it.

CTR1dotOrg | 10:14 a.m. Aug. 12, 2008

I agree with those who have commented that 'tendencies' or attractions to this or that are not important, it's BEHAVIOR that determines when a temptation becomes a sin. (Mind you, actively dwelling on a thought can be damaging as well because it leads to behavior.)

Those who engage in sexual relations outside of traditional marriage, regardless of the genders involved, are choosing to sin. Sin is the business of churches when it is their own members involved.

So why again is it that a group of people who apparently promote a sinful lifestyle think they should have a voice in LDS General Conferences?

I think that today is a time of sifting, a time when the Lord is beginning to separate the wheat from the tares, the sheep from the goats. It is individual choices, to sin or not to sin, that place us each of us on His right or on His left hand, for eternity...

Devon Taylor | 10:20 a.m. Aug. 12, 2008

I have a few friends who are "gay". They are fun to be around and very considerate of my beliefs (I explained that the Church's position is my position) and remain my friends. We consider each of us to be a child of God, and therefore treat each other with respect. The demands of Affirmation reflect their ignorance of the articles and talks already given about same sex attraction, or maybe they are well aware of them but chose to ignore them which indicates to me that their mission is not to have meaningful discussions, but to promote negative feelings towards the Church. By doing so, they are damaging the honest efforts of most gay Mormons to overcome their desires and live fully the commandments of our Father in Heaven. My "gay" friends will always be my friends in spite of the misguided things Affirmation does.

Bill | 10:24 a.m. Aug. 12, 2008

It's amazing how far people will go to try to stay within the LDS belief system. Affirmation just needs to accept that the LDS Church is not a good place for gays and lesbians. LDS history, spripture, beliefs, and teachings are pretty clear that gays and lesbians are not truly welcome.

Get over the LDS church already and move on.

No Judgments | 10:25 a.m. Aug. 12, 2008

"There, but for the grace of God, go I...."

I don't personally struggle with SSA, but I have relatives who do and I feel for them. It appears to be a difficult challenge that I will never fully understand. I admire what Carolyn Pearson says in her book on the subject. That no matter what their chosen path in dealing with it (in or out of the LDS church, living a gay or straight life): "I wish them well"

huh | 10:28 a.m. Aug. 12, 2008

people in Utah are weird...they argue about doctrine all the time. While the rest of the world goes on living. They are in their own lil bubble......

Brad | 10:38 a.m. Aug. 12, 2008

I am a gay man who is a 6th generation Mormon. I am no longer active in the church. I am not a member of Affirmation and I am not seeking to get the church to change it's doctrine on this issue.

There was a time after my mission when I really was struggling with this. I had come to realize that these feelings I had were not going to go away notwithstanding an honorable mission and years of fasting, prayer, and counseling. I realized I would not marry and that I would live a lonely challenging life. I sought the counsel of several bishops. Most of them were very misinformed about this issue. One of them placed me on a sort of probabationï¿½preventing me from holding a calling or even passing the sacramentï¿½even though I had not acted on my feelings. He said I needed to ï¿½overcome even the attractionï¿½ before I would be temple-worthy.

I moved on.

Brad | 10:40 a.m. Aug. 12, 2008

Another bishop in a singles ward was very well meaning. He had obviously dealt with this issue many times. I was able to find a support group in that ward and be open about my struggle with several other members. This bishop was soon replaced, however, and the new bishop seemed genuinely shocked that some of us had openly discussed our struggle with other members of the ward. He, and the new stake president, told me to ï¿½keep such matters to myselfï¿½.

Brad | 10:43 a.m. Aug. 12, 2008

I eventually moved to a family ward where many good members constantly tried to line me up with good single sisters. As I entered my 30s, I learned that the gossip in the ward was that I was gay. I confirmed this to a young couple who I felt were friends and also shared it again with my bishop. Almost instantly I felt ostracized and I knew that people were talking about me behind my back. You wouldnï¿½t believe some of the hurtful comments and jokes that would make their way back to me. One home teacher even told me flat out that he refused to come to my house. Members acted suspiciously when I tried to get involved as a scout leader because of my love for camping and athletics and desire to serve. The bishop even told me that was a bad idea.

Brad | 10:44 a.m. Aug. 12, 2008

I soon realized there was no place for me in the church, even as a celibate, active member who was striving to do what was right. The church expects so much of its gay membersï¿½lifelong celibacy and lonelinessï¿½and yet, with few exceptions, members in these several wards were not supportive or accepting of me and my struggle.

So no, Iï¿½m not expecting the church to change its doctrine. But I can no longer subject myself to the whispers, the suspicion, and the general ostracism that accompanied being an active member. If anything good can come from Affirmation speaking out, I hope it is that more effort can be made to educate members about this issue, to dispel all the misinformation that is out there, and to create a more accepting environment where people like me can find support in the gospel, and not rejection.

re Brad | 10:55 a.m. Aug. 12, 2008

The unreasonable restrictions placed upon gay members is really a not-so-subtle whisper of "get out, you have no place here, and we don't want you".

Anonymous | 11:09 a.m. Aug. 12, 2008

SSA is not a sin anymore than craving a beer or cigarette is a sin.Acting on that lust/desire is. I think it's clear, by their own words, that Affirmation does indeed have an agenda. I agree with Mike Richards.

Who needs affirmation? | 11:19 a.m. Aug. 12, 2008

I'm a lesbian who was raised in a TBM home. I never understood why people would want to belong to an organization that fundamentally does not respect them and even thinks they are deranged.

Affirmation is totally wasting their energy. Mormon Standard Time is decades behind the civilized world, and always has been. It took the LDS 148 years before they would admit blacks. Women are still excluded from the priesthood and its many spiritual and temporal privileges. It could take centuries before SLC accepts that homosexuality is not a choice.

Affirmation: why beat your heads against a wall? There are so many other wonderful churches that don't expect people to beg and grovel. There is something deeply pathetic about Affirmation, I pity the folks at Affirmation for their delusions about SLC.

Re: Brad | 12:13 p.m. Aug. 12, 2008

I'm truly sorry that happened to you.

To Brad | 12:17 p.m. Aug. 12, 2008

As a single sister in the church, (but not gay)I face those same trials.

You think that your stuggle is so much harder than others and that what frustrates me. There are elderly people who feel shunned because of their age etc.. in the church, but we all still go because we love the savior and no that it's true.

Dude, life is hard! I find that as a single woman that never got married, people are rude no matter inside the church or outside.

Dan | 12:27 p.m. Aug. 12, 2008

Re Brad

Brad I hear you man! I had a very similar experience to yours in my life. I finally discovered that living by the "reasonable restrictions" the church places on gay members, and the constant backbiting and rumors that were taking place behind my back, and sometimes in front of my face, were not really making me happy, as so many ecclesiastical leaders made me believe I could be. I have never felt the joy and compensating love that was promised to me on so many occasions for "fighting the good fight" and remaining active and obedient.

I have since moved on, and am dating guys and have been the happiest I have ever been since returning home from my mission. All members of my family say this, of course, is just a temporary happiness and that in the eternities no such happiness will be present. Well I say, at least now I am feeling some positive feelings about myself and future, where as before all I felt was loneliness and darkness .

Silly People | 12:46 p.m. Aug. 12, 2008

That church is for married, heterosexual, fertile, conservative, non-coffee drinking, non-alcohol consuming, obedient, full-tithe paying, non questioning people. And it doesn't hurt if they're wealthy as well. Any questions?

dicere veritas | 12:54 p.m. Aug. 12, 2008

I like the old evangelical slogan, "Church should be a hospital for sinners and not just a sanctuary for Saints."
Churches in America are constitutionally not political forums. If Affirmation Group wants such, let them join the Southern Baptists or some of the more radical evangelistic congregations.
The Latter-Day Saints are Bible believers, and, in great historical wisdom, keep religion and politics clearly separated.
Politicizing special interest groups comes under the realm of a country's constituted government.
Read the Bible, David, and then peruse the U.S. Constitution.

Cheryl | 1:07 p.m. Aug. 12, 2008

To the single sister who responded to Brad: I find it hard to believe that you as a single sister have experienced what Brad writes about. I'm not saying it is easy for you. I'm single too and I wish I were married and fit in more too.

But I've also seen how an older single man was treated in my old ward. Everyone knew he was gay and people would gossip pretty openly about him and whether he was truly "worthy". I knew parents who didn't want him around their children. I'm sorry, but I very much doubt that you as a single sister face this. I know I don't. I at least get to teach primary and contriubte.

Rob re: Brad's comments | 1:07 p.m. Aug. 12, 2008

Brad,

I feel sorry for you that people treated you that way, it must have been hard. No member of the church should have to deal with that. That said, you seem to suffer from the same thing that many less active or former members of the church suffer from: A failure to realize that the people around you who treated you that way are also sinners and imperfect. That fact does in no way justify their actions, but it's something that ALL of us deal with on some level. My wife and I moved into a new ward and frankly never really met anyone in the ward that I didn't already know. We were there literally unnoticed for almost 8 full months. I didn't receive a calling... I know it's apples to oranges, but c'mon. It's basically a double standard to say that nobody around you has any right to succumb to there own ignorance or beliefs. It's a matter of education, not outright hate or disgust. It just SEEMS to me that "gays" play this woe-is-me game, stop feeling sorry and start helping people understand, just my 2 cents.

Shawilli | 1:21 p.m. Aug. 12, 2008

I think that this issue will be with the church for many years to come, the church is not going to tell a person they may not attend church just because they are gay. I think that gay men and women are to be found throughout the church whether we know it or not, they may be our visiting teachers or our home teachers, love them and embrace the good works they are capable of, the choice of speaking ill of them and being less than Christlike towards them is ours as members alone. The church will deal with this issue as it is inspired to with love and patience and goodwill, which is exactly as it should be handled. A person with same sex attraction feelings does not cease being a beloved Son or Daughter of God, simply they have a different set of obstacles to learn from and to overcome if they desire to live with heaveanly father again.Show love and tolerance to those who carry this heavy burden in life, pray for their happiness and their deliverance and repentance and love them as Christ would and does love them.

I have struggled | 1:24 p.m. Aug. 12, 2008

With these things. But I can't deny that Joseph saw what he did and was what he claimed to be. I just know it. So the struggle continues. I just wish people in the Church could be nicer.

Paperboy | 1:27 p.m. Aug. 12, 2008

Unfortunately religion today is used too often as a divisive wedge to separate us, rather than bring us together. I'm pretty surprised at many of the homophobic comments from so-called faithful members of the LDS church. If loyalty to LDS doctrine and values and Christian values triggers these kinds of responses, it raises serious questions about the value and impact of the Mormon church on topics and issues that affect so many people and citizens of the U.S. and the world in general. It certainly doesn't make me want to associate with people who are so narrow-minded and dogmatic in their thinking and perspective. I prefer to spend my time with gracious, open, non-judgemental and forgiving people.

It Doesn't Work That Way | 1:35 p.m. Aug. 12, 2008

"In addition to wanting a general conference talk on the church's position toward gays, Melson outlined other items on the group's agenda.

Affirmation wants a female church leader to address mothers to let them know they're not responsible for their children's sexuality. Melson said guilt is a "huge problem" for mothers of gay children."

People, and particularly this Affirmation group, need to understand that no one tells the Lord, or His authorized servants, what to do. It is the other way around; the Lord, or in His absence, His authorized servants, that gives counsel to the masses.

Affirmation wants a General Conference talk on the Church's position on homosexuals? That won't happen unless the Lord wants it.

Affirmation wants a female Church leader to tell mothers it's not their fault some of their children live a homosexual lifestyle? Again, that won't happen unless the Lord desires it. It's HIS church, not man's. Besides, what if it IS the fault of the mother? Much research seems to point towards bad/abusive parenting as being a key factor in later homosexual activity.

The Lord is in charge and not the other way around.

kinlco | 1:33 p.m. Aug. 12, 2008

It is frustrating to think that Affirmation speaks for all the gay Mormons. I am gay. I am LDS. I am active. I am happy. The only reason Affirmation wants anything from the LDS Church is to justify what they believe - and what they believe is different from the teachings of the Church.

Having said that, I do wish that more members of the Church and non-members for that matter - would be more accepting. But it is the loud groups like Affirmation and Pride Parades that perpetuate the stigmas associated with gay men and women. I am not a pedophile. I am not deviant. I am not a murderer. Yet I get treated like one. Until the members of the Church see more active men and women who struggle with same-gender attraction in a positive light, the stigmas will not go away.

The Church is slowly helping this issue - Elder Oaks spoke of a gay man in a conference talk (Heavy Laden talk), it has been spoken of in the Ensign, and there is a specific pamphlet.

Change will happen in time - but it can't be forced by outside agendas.

Single Sister | 1:39 p.m. Aug. 12, 2008

At least we as single sisters still have the OPPORTUNITY to marry a man who we are attracted to. Our gay brothers and sisters do not have this opportunity in this life at all...I would say that its not fair to compare the two on equal grounds. See I still have the hope of marrying the man of my dreams in this life, yet poor Brad and others like him do not. (if they remain in the church)

ahma | 1:40 p.m. Aug. 12, 2008

Thank you Shawilli. Well said.

LDS Position | 1:50 p.m. Aug. 12, 2008

The Affirmation group wants to know the LDS church's position on homosexual behavior? That's easy, it's spoken in talks and printed in pamphlets and Priesthood leadership manuals everywhere....

- The ACT of homosexual behavior(s) is a sin, and a very grievious one at that.

- The Lord has not told us yet whether homosexual desires are "learned" or "genetic"

- However, homosexual actions ARE immoral (see #1)

- Those who ACT in a homosexual manner/lifestyle are not worthy to be baptized into the LDS faith, take the sacrament, serve church missions, attend the Temple, marry in the Temple or, if male, to hold or exercise the Priesthood in any way unless/until they repent

- Those who have a sexual attraction towards members of their own sex but DON'T act on their desires are counted worthy by the Lord in EVERY respect

- LOVE the sinner, NOT the sin

- Even practicing homosexuals are welcome to attend Church services UNLESS they (the homosexuals) act in such a way (by actions or speech or dress, etc) that the sanctity, holiness and peace of the worship service is repeatedly diminished by their conduct

That's it!

My Money Says.... | 1:58 p.m. Aug. 12, 2008

that if any one of the 15 living Apostles ever visited in person with any pro-gay group that at least some of the "agenda aggressive" portion of homosexuals would take photos of the event and splash them all over the internet / newspapers with the headlines reading something like "LDS Church Softening Stance Towards Gays", which would not be the case. A meeting to hear one's frustrations does not mean that attitudes on both sides can or should change. I suspect that is part of the reason that the Church has not met with these pro-homosexual groups.

Yes, Christ ministered to those who needed it but He also cautioned His disciples to avoid even "the appearance of evil".

Did anyone notice the part in the article where the Church representative said "we wanted to meet with them in private but they (Affirmation) are turning this into a public event"?

Brad | 2:07 p.m. Aug. 12, 2008

To Rob (1:07) and others: I appreciate your response and understand how I might have come across as self-pitying. That was not my intention, though, nor was it to belittle the struggles experienced by others (re single sister). I was just sharing my experience to, as you put it, "try to help people understand" and to give some real context to this discussion. Especially since there are those on here who keep insisting this is no more difficult a challenge than keeping the word of wisdom.

Several years ago I took responsibility for my own happiness, which for me meant becoming inactive, for reasons I explained above. I don't feel sorry for myself and I don't want or expect anyone else to. I am quite happy and I now have a network of very understanding and accepting friends.

Bridal Your Passions | 2:12 p.m. Aug. 12, 2008

Honestly, isn't this kind of silly? Do you really think God authorizes homosexual behavior, even if the person has natural tendencies to be homosexual? What about the married man who has naturaly tendencies to cheat on his wife? Does that give him a pass to do it? Come on, this is the most absurd thing I've seen. I do not dispute that some men of homosexual tendencies, but that does not mean that God has or will ever sanction it or say that it is not a sin. I think it is pretty clear it doesn't matter if a person is a homosexual or not, God will never authorize it as acceptable to act out in that way. Many people have weakeness, in many different areas, homosexual or not.The flesh is weak. The key is to "Bridal Your Passions". It is a sin and always will be.

For "ahma" | 2:18 p.m. Aug. 12, 2008

11:27 PM, 11 Aug....

GOD BLESS YOU FOR YOUR EXCEPTIONAL COURAGE IN WALKING FROM DARKNESS INTO THE LIGHT!!!

We do indeed ALL have "crosses to bear".

Keep the faith!

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