But the problem is, a parent dealing with the public school system is not in any way a customer, because he or she has not voluntarily purchased education for his or her child from the school district. The parent is not in charge, but rather is a subject.

One of my kids was taking a certain math class, so I started to ask him questions and found he didn't know any of the answers I expected him to. I asked him if he had covered this in school he said no.

I looked at the book and found it was very easy compared to the book on the same subject when I was his age.

I complained to the school and the school district. The district listened politely and acknowledged the problem but didn't fix anything.

Professional Educators got us into this mess, so I don't for one minute assume that educators know better than I do.

I wish they would listen to what parents tell them and when parents are right, I wish they would follow through and fix things, but I haven't seen that.

Everyone would be better off if parents left education to the experts. Quit complaining and pay your taxes.

The Utah legeslature made a huge step to correct this problem whith school vouchers. The citizens of Utah sided whith the teachers union to soundly defeat it.

A couple of weeks back Mr. Florez wrote a column about then pressing need to change public education. He offered no solutions then and now he is proposing essentially the status quo as the answer. What a sellout.

I see a different perspective. Kids are part of the equation, too. They've become complacent and lazy. The expectations of them from their parents and society have changed. We kind of still want them to get some sort of education by osmosis but really want them to be star athletes. Or we want school to be religious indoctrinatin, which by definition displaces knowledge. We don't value knowledge anymore, it is even held in disdain and scorn, as everyone ever branded an academic elitist or nerd knows. I don't blame the education system for this.

Voucher were a joke and I'm still laughing that there is someone that will still say it is the answer.

The teachers union had little impact on my vote.

It was a stupid piece of legislation that people saw for what it was...garbage.

This was even more evident when it came out that a couple of legislators were in the business of building charter and for profit schools.

Funny how you see it. I see exactly the opposite.

My soon to be 8th grader will be in Geometry this year. I glanced at his Algebra book last year and saw basically the same thing that I saw in junior high 30 years ago. He will be two years ahead of where I was at his age.

I fully trust and compliment his teachers at his school in Orem. They have kept him interested and done a good job teaching. He even had some of the investigations math in elementary. He loved it because he actually got to think instead of just memorize. (We made sure he was doing both!!)

He loves math and will probably go into engineering or something related.

At any rate I fully stand behind the "professional educators" of our state. I have found that when the parents are involved, the child gets a great education.

When the parents whine and complain, the child learns to whine and complain and make excuses.

Quit whining and be a parent.

Some thoughts as a 30-year veteran teacher:

1) Classes are as large or larger than they ever were. Why haven't we advanced beyond sardine-packed classrooms?

2)Parents and students complain when students get too much homework, after all they have a "life" outside of school.

3) If the teacher in the front of the room doesn't behave as if he is a nintendo game, the student is bored---I have never seen so many so-called cases of ADHD, thanks to TV and video games.

4) Legislators enact changes on a flavor of the year mentality, then blame educators and the system when their hair-brained ideas don't take.

5) Teacher salaries have gone from average in the nation to rock bottom---behind Misssissippi. You get what you pay for, and you haven't paid for much in the last couple of decades. It will take more than a generation to fix what your legislature so stingily mucked up.

When the law-makers begin to look at the educational system as a partnership between them and parents, educators, and students, and not their personal pet peeve, then something can be constructively improved.

Flores is way off base on this one.

Oh your child will be taking geometry in the 8th grade? Sounds good on the surface, until you come to understand that Geometry of today is not the same as when we parents went to school.

By this I mean there are very few proofs now. I know because I looked in a Geometry book of today and had to search hard to find some.

My kid who was taking Geometry was learning many facts, many theorems, but had proved few of them. He was using these facts to solve very simple problems, such as if one angle of a triangle is 30 degrees and another is 40 degrees, what is the other angle? well the answer of course is 110 degrees.

Is this what you consider real geometry? Their class cut out a triangle then added up the angles up graphically to show the angles add to 180 degrees, but they didn't prove it for all triangles.

It is the proving that is important in Geometry, not the facts, proving teaches young minds to problem solve and that is what is missing in today's Geometry.

Youngsters of today may become engineers, but not smart ones if we don't improve.

To anonymous 5:07; You said, "Everyone would be better off if parents left education to the experts. Quit complaining and pay your taxes."

May I ask, Just who are the experts? Are they the educators who have been trained by extremist professors at our Universities who do not allow for individual thought that may differ from theirs or are the experts the parents who raise their children on a daily basis? Are they the teachers who some do very well while others merely tend your kids while they work? Who are the experts? Are they the professors who do research which is rarely criticized by their peers yet when an outside group comes in and finds massive research mistakes yet is claimed to be 'research based Education'? Are the experts the district personnel who may or may not be the best people for the job, yet they are their because they are enough of brown-nosers to get the change? Just who are the experts?

Orion hit the nail on the head but as another teacher, I want to add one more ingredient into the "education today" mix:

Students who have migraines, depression, bi-polar disorder, ADHD, and are on heavy-duty medications are up astronomically in the last dozen years or so. I know. Parents demanding 504 accommodations are more numerous than ever before.

I suspect diet/environment as well as social disorders stemming from personal electronics (Ipods, the internet, electronic games)are partly to blame. They have become the baby-tenders of our kids.

Many parents no longer really parent. Friendship groups and school have become the "families" of the traditional norm. Many kids have been emotionally abandoned by their parents who are too busy with jobs and are exhibiting the trauma of abandonment.

I am not your child's parent. For parents and the legislature try to make educators the scapegoat for student ills is passing a very worn out and inadequate buck.

Until we get neighborhood sized schools and community sized districts, we will NOT be able to get accountability, either from educators OR from taxpayers and parents. We will get strings and ropes and iron bands from policymakers that straightjacket educators and further bog the system down, but we won't get accountability!

The only way to improve pay teachers pay?

Privitize schools (no teacher will ever be payed much when the government pays)

The only way to improve schools?

Privitization and Vouchers (competition)

Who are ones that don't want change and real improvement in education?

liberals, democrats, and teacher unions. (they want to keep complete control of their brainwashing and propaganda machine, and of course the power that comes with controlling it)

THe number ONE reason education will never improve?

Governement and special interest (unions) control over education.

The problems and he answers are obvious if you just open your eyes.

Maybe instead of thinking of themselves as consumers, parents should think of themselves as parents.

Mr. Flores just convinced me that school choice and vouchers are the way to go. If what he described is the only way we can hold schools accountable then we can't hold them accountable at all.

If I don't like how one home improvement store (for example) is treating me, I go to another one. I don't call for the manager, write to the district Manager, call the Board of Directors, etc. I just go to a different store.

Utah voters defeated school choice legislation by a large majority. The unions have done an effective job of preventing wider parental choice and competition among schools. In the immediate term I think parents - whether for or against additional school choice - need some basic reforms.

I'd favor a sizeable raise for Utah teachers, beyond what many of us that have to compete in the private sector will see this year. I'd favor an add'l $5K/yr on average and additional $3K for math and science teachers.

However, the sizeable boost in pay must come with two caveats - 1) principals must be free to fire any teacher they feel is underperforming and 2) principals should be free to allocate the raises whichever way they choose.

If unions are to be believed, Utah is facing teacher shortages. If teachers don't like the deal they are getting they are free to look elsewhere. Something must be done to shakeup the complacency in Utah's public education system.

to "To Dave | 9:10 a.m. Aug. 11, 2008"

A legislator building charter schools is not a conflict of interest when it comes to vouchers, since charter schools do not receive money from vouchers.

Mr. Flores is right on on this one. Thank you for saying what i feel. We are customers and parents. The schools and teachers (some of them) need to stop being so arrogant and listen. maybe they will learn something.