If you don't like it, leave. Now *that's* original. I'd rather stay and work for change.

I work hard, pay my taxes, and obey the law. If my government is doing things with which I disagree, I feel it is my civic duty to speak out. If you disagree with me, then by all means speak out, it is your right as an American citizen.

This veteran who served defending the right to free speech wishes to say, he's welcome here in California. Here many of us realize if you don't see areas for improvement to never get any better. You don't get in the NBA having people tell you you're as good as you can get.

What is it with people in Utah telling others to leave if they don't like it here. People do like it here, they just wish we could make some positive changes. What is wrong with that. Act like an American and accept that others not only may have different views but also that they have a right to express them.

As the author of the original letter, I will again point out...I mentioned EIGHT positive things I love about Utah and about America. Then I mentioned SEVEN parenthetical undertones that I have perceived. I attached no negative connotation to those undertones, I simply pointed them out. Any negativity was inferred by the reader. It was not a critique, nor a bashing. It was a simple observation. Mr. Jolley's invitation for me to leave seems to prove it was correct. His view might read, "America the Beautiful (as long as you agree with me, otherwise, leave)".

"If you don't think like I do, leave." Now if any letter seems to prove the original letter's point, this one just did. His whole point was that patriotism comes in many colors and is as diverse as those who make up this country. The biggest enemy to patriotism we have today is the idea that the "enemy" is those who don't subscribe to our own points of view. Mr. Jolley, you are betraying the very freedom you and your relatives supposedly defend. Freedom of speech and of the press both apply, even to those who disagree with you.

The problem comes when people move to Utah because they think it is such a great place to live....and then they spend a lot of time and energy trying to change it so it will be just like where they came from. We who have lived here for generations like our life style and believe it is our lifestyle that makes Utah such a unique and desireable place to live.

Isn't Mr. Jolley expressing his views? Whether you like them or not he has that right to express his own views.

Mr. Jolley,

On a day when your fellow citizens celebrate Brigham Young's famous statement "this is the place." you are bold enough to suggest Utah is "the place" ONLY for those who hold the same political and religious views as you?

What a jolt! I won't need a cup of coffee to kick start my morning. Your audacity got my heart racing on its own!

It seems to me your letter misses the spirit of independence and freedom our pioneer forbearer walked across the plains for.

A bit more understanding, patience and love are in order this day. Leave the judging and casting out for ... well someone else, somewhere else in the great eternities.

The thing that always cracks me up is that people move to Utah because of the low crime and family values. Then they immediately start complaining about how much they can't stand it and try to change it to make it like the place they escaped from.

I just always think it's funny.

The liberal mind sees what must be changed and immediately goes into action to promote a better future for all.

The conservative mind, frightened to death of anything different, believes nothing should be done for the first time.

The reason why people like Gavin stay in Utah is simple. They want to live in a place where NOTHING is their fault.

In reading numerous letters and comments on this and other local news websites, one "FACT" clearly emerges. The reason why gay, lesbian, black and hispanic Utahns are depressed is SOLELY because of the "homophobic" and "bigoted" attitudes of the LDS Church and its members.

Apparently, these groups of people NEVER worry about the economy, war or crime on the streets of our cities. They never have to care for sick friends or family members, and they never worry about personal relationships or getting their hearts broken.

On the other hand, LDS Church members are depressed SOLELY because of the "pressure" put upon them by their church leaders.

Apparently, LDS Church members are incapable of being hurt by those who viciously ridicule them on the Internet, in newspapers, at work or at school.

If terms like "cult" "pagan" "religious thug" "morgbot" "theo-nazi" and offend LDS people, its their own fault.

So clearly, whenever problems of depression, anger, crime or distrust occur in Utah, Gavin and his pals can just sit back and say, "Blame the Mormons."

Cats and the letter writer, as someone that has lived in Utah and know others that have moved to Utah for the very reasons you sight I can tell you that the reason people try to institute change when they arrive is not because they want to make it like where they came from but because they want to try to make it the place they thought they where moving to. I know it is hard to believe but Utah is not always what it presents it self to be. I love Utah and will always call it my true home but it is not all that and a cup of tea. People are just looking to make what they consider to be a better life for themselves and their families, the same as I suspect you are.

But, Gavin. Is it too hard to admit that one reason you and so many others live in Utah is because you enjoy blaming everything on the LDS Church?

Those of us who are LDS hear it all the time. When a gay person is depressed, its the LDS Church's fault. When an LDS person is depressed, its still the LDS Church's fault.

When a woman is murdered by her husband, when a little girl is shot in front of her house, when someone loses their entire life savings in an investment scam, somehow the blame always gets put back on the feet of the LDS Church and its members.

If you think I'm exaggerating or sounding paranoid, just take a glance at the dozens and dozens of website designed to attack the LDS Church. Read the other major newspaper in Utah sometime, or listen to the way some people talk about their LDS co-workers or classmates when they think they're not listening.

SILLY ME, you probably do already.

The editorial letter made my eyes pop open wider than my morning coffee.

I didn't know there were still people who think they live in a snow-globe with a "no vacancy" sign posted.

Unfortunately, letter writer, those countries have strict anti-immigration laws and won't let you in.

To Wash hands - 6:29

TAKE IT EASY MY FRIEND! Yes, there are some religious divides in this state. No one is denying that. But I have a lot of Utah friends who are not LDS and I can't imagine they sit around all day blaming me and my church for all THEIR problems.

Those of us who are Utah Latter-day Saints must recognize that our state is becoming more diverse. It doesn't mean Utah is becoming more evil or wicked. It simply means we must do a better job at finding the good in those different from ourselves.

Whenever I hear people complain about Utah or the Utah culture, am I really doing any good by saying, "If you don't like it, leave!" ???????

Rather, I would say, "Alright, what can YOU do to make Utah a better place to live in?"

I invite everyone to find Elder M. Russell Ballard's talk "Doctrine of Inclusion" from the October, 2001 General Conference and apply what he says into our own lives. We will all be better for it!

...that a few weeks ago someone complained about crummy shows on TV, and the huge response in the comments section was "If you don't like it, you can turn it off!" Now that someone says "If you don't like it, you can leave," the comments section is in an uproar.

Some consistency, please?

But, Gavin,
You can also listen to how LDS classmates talk about their non-LDS classmates both when they think they are not listening and when they know they are. LDS and non-LDS do have some things in common you know.

To: Its a mental thing.

first of all, I completely agree that Mr Wilde has every right as does Mr Jolley to speak their opinion. And the author behind "Its a mental thing" does as well. With that in mind here are my thoughts:

Liberal minds want to murder the unborn, hates human beings over the environment and animals, hates the family, hates God, hates anyone who believes in god, hates the rich and anyone who tries to make a good life for themselves

To Wash Hands: yet another Professional Mormon Hater comes out of the woodwork.

Oh, we already have. So argue for change to what you think would be better all you want. If you ever get tired of losing your argument feel free to vote with your feet. Its the American way. That's the way it was intended and hopefully it will stay that way.

"What is it with people in Utah telling others to leave if they don't like it here."

First, it's not just in Utah. Many western states citizens feel the same way about newcomers attacking their society.

Second, Utah was founded by people who were driven out of every other place they tried to be. They came from a place where it was legal to kill them. They came here because no one else wanted it. Even then, the US sent an army after them. They took this desert and built a beautiful city and state. It was through their hard work and determination that it was built, and that legacy continues today.

So for someone to move here and criticize the society that built this place from scratch is a bit frustrating.

To "But, Gavin 7:11" and "Jason 7:56"

YOU TWO NEED TO CHILL !!!!!

Those kind of attitudes benefits no one.

So what if there are websites and newspapers which ridicule the LDS Church. Do you think it's any different for the Catholics, Southern Baptists or Scientologists? The question becomes, how do you best answer those who criticize your faith?

And to say that "liberal minds" hate everything described above is about as dumb as saying Elvis Presley helped in faking the Apollo moon landings.

Fact - We all have imperfections, we all have prejudices and we all have worries. But how we deal with each those is what will ultimately determine our fates.

Why should the minority govern the majority?

You are difficult to listen to day in and day out. The writer is just saying that their are so many options in this free country to find a more desirable place to live.
Heck, if I get tired of this place, if it no longer 'floats my boat' I have options and the writer is just saying; so do you.
I can't imagine living in a place where its so awful and you feel so put upon every day. Do something about it. Move! Change you situation! stop the madness!

To Cameron:

Boo-hoo. Do you realize how many other parts of our country and especially the world can tell the same story, and much, much worse?

Looking in the rear-view mirror is not very constructive. Look at today and move forward.

I was here first, you get out.

We came to Utah in the late 1960's. We were so impressed with this beautiful city that we decided to stay. Everywhere yards were green and flowers abundant. It seemed that everyone was proud and was willing to work for the betterment of each other. Downtown was a fun and busy place to go. One of the most interesting things was that people slep outside on their front lawns in the summer time.

Today downtown is nearly dead and most of the yards arround town are also dead. The culture has changed from one of love your fellow man to a culture of greed and hate. But it's not just Utah it is all of America. And at our age there is noplace else we want to go.

The sadness is not for ourselves but for our children and grandchildren who will not know the joy that we have had.

"Liberal minds want to murder the unborn, hates human beings over the environment and animals, hates the family, hates God, hates anyone who believes in god, hates the rich and anyone who tries to make a good life for themselves."

Just had to re-read this again to realize the wacko mentality of that sad and dying breed of people called conservatives.

Lots and lots of love in that message - isn't there?

In most states there are no "Professional Mormon Haters" so why dont you move to one of those cats?

Why encourage someone to leave? Why not make it better for everyone here?
Jolly should be the one who leaves.

For the record...I never said I wasn't LDS. I never blamed anything on the LDS church whatsoever.

The Ute indians were here first -
YOU get out!

Wait, Mr. Jolley - did you and the members of your family fight for this country on behalf of only those who think and live like you?

Or for all of us, including those, like me, who don't feel the same way you do about fellow Americans? Why the sudden invitation for others to leave? Is that really what you fought for?

Really?

You complain about no love in the message but you don't dispute the message.

The message is correct. You can't deny or dispute it. Sometimes there isn't any love in the truth.

I know, when liberals are confronted with facts, they turn to name-calling and shooting the messenger. Why don't you deal with the message?

Grandma Anne said it correctly. However, many of you are saying you want to change things for the betterment of the state. The issue is that some things you think are better for the state or city or whatever doesn't coincide with how the majority feel about the situation.

In other words, the majority thinks it's not betterment but will be detrimental.

Liberals think that they must always be changing something. If you're not changing then you aren't thinking for yourself and not being a "progressive". That's a bunch of hooey.

It's human nature to try to change where we are with what we felt were positive things in places we have been. Sometimes we do try to make now like it was when I lived 'there'.

It's also human nature to complain; usually without giving a different solution to their complaint. Phil Gramm was correct, the USA has become a place for whiners; not doers.

I'd like to see all of you "change agents" lists of what needs to be changed and how it will benefit society.

Change is a nice sound bite but put the rubber to the road and let's see some details and why.

"America, Love It Or Leave It"

Most Americans who protest the direction America has taken over the past 7 1/2 years care for their country as much as any other American. To infer that they "hate" America is to buy into the wingnut tactic of attacking anyone who disagrees with you.

The letter writer should re-read the First Amendment to the Constitution. And while he's at it, he should read the Declaration of Independence, and might as well read the entire Constitution to see what the Founding Fathers thought about Freedom and Democracy.

The Utah bubble is unique today since the South has passed it in developing a more broad understanding of the world and the people in it. Fortunately, Utah is changing dramatically. It is obvious from this and other threads that more open-minded, liberal, progressive, and rational people are moving into the state and giving it a more decidely purple tint.

What the reader can deduce in the letter is the fear and anxiety that the writer must feel in the face of change. Utah was formed so as to withdraw from the world, and yet that attempt at separating itself has shifted and the world is here.

To re:jason 7:56. Actually the quote on Liberal minds is absolutely truthful. It's the liberals who can't stand the truth and have changed that which was right to wrong and that which was wrong to right; and, that which was good to evil and vice versa. Liberals really are God-haters and place themselves in positions to destroy and ridicule those who are faith-based, gun-toting, I love America (even with her minor faults), honest, hardworking citizens who happen to be compassionate, service-minded, and contribute billions of dollars more to worthwhile causes than liberals have ever thought of doing. And, absolutely, if all you are here to do is destroy the standards of this community with your immoral, let's embrace all ideologies garbage, please, at your earliest convenience, go to San Francisco, or Berkeley or some other self destructive community and join forces with other such human trash. We really don't intend on condoning your evil opinions and hope you make haste in your departure. So long, and good riddance to evil.

Best letter I've seen in years. A+

It sounds like Mr. Jolley doesn't believe in freedom of speech. I'd like to turn his argument around on him. There are plenty of theocracies in this world to accommodate Mr. Jolley's wishes and narrow mind. How about Saudi Arabia? Iraq? They don't like free speech either.

Bob, I've felt your pain too. I miss Main Street. My brother and I have great adventure as two boys of 7 and 10 going to movies, window shopping and feeling the energy of a vibrant city.

I won't get in to who decided that for the sake of progress Utah should invite the world, thing the world wanted to be like Utah.

People came, brought their drug addicted kids and Utah's leaders used this growth as proof Utah was the place.

The reality was different. Those who came wanted Utah to change. They changed Utah.

Look at the bright side of life. There are few cities in Utah that don't have great Mexican food.

I see the usual far-right lunatics are up to their old tricks with lovely comments like:

"Liberal minds want to murder the unborn, hates human beings over the environment and animals, hates the family, hates God, hates anyone who believes in god, hates the rich and anyone who tries to make a good life for themselves"

And this of course is supposed to include the next president of the United States, Senator Barak Obama who also is one of those hate-mongering liberals this demented poster talks about.

It's Obama by a landslide in November. And in a strange way, aided by the bizarre hate-filled rhetoric of the neocon posters such as seen above.

Charles tells us:

I'd like to see all of you "change agents" lists of what needs to be changed and how it will benefit society.

This request is so overwhelmingly bizarre, I don't quite know where to begin.

Let's just leave it at:

A 46-year old black man named Obama who leans left is going to be the next president of the United States ushering in a new era of peace, compassion and hope. And it will be by a landslide.

Gus, why or how is your "open-mindedness, liberalness, progressiveness" better than what we have now?

How is the acceptance of all the social ills that your way of thinking better for our society?

Your arrogance that your way is richer or a life enhancer is no better than what the letter writer says. Each person has their own ideals of what is good, right, better, best.

I fail to see how anything liberalism has brought us is better than conservative ideals, morals, attitudes etc.

In fact the list is long and disingenuous as to the social ills brought to our society from the live and let live crowd. $48 BILLION is being passed to stop AIDS. I can think of easier ways and much less expensive to me, the taxpayer for a lifestyle that I don't agree with and don't understand why I have to pay for their consequences of their live and let live lifestyle...

Seems like you want the 1st amendment to be ok with your philosophy but nothing else.

JayMar...time to switch off the AM radio my friend. You sound like a militant, and are painting with quite a broad brush.

to 12:56...you offer nothing of substance, as usual. Put up your list. Let's see all these changes that need to be made and how society will benefit from them.

Did you see the new NBC poll that was reported on last night on their news cast? Your Obamania is going up in flames...you might want to go check it out so you can have some facts before your next illiterate and hot-air filled post...

@ Charles...
You say "48 Billion is being passed to stop AIDS" as if that's a bad thing...and please remind me, how much have we spent in Iraq? Money to save people beats money to kill people every time.

The Fascist do-what-we-tell-you neocon philosophy is all but dead.
Long live liberalism!
As in 'Sweet Land of Liberty!'

Conservatives believe everything can be solved with a gun, that everyone should worship their god, that spending money you dont have to look like they are rich is the way to Christ, preemptive war is a good thing, that torture is good, killing fetuses is murder but bombing children is collateral damage, that spending 10 times the next nearest country on defense is not quite enough for our safety, that claiming something is a sin because a 2000 year old book of fables says so should trump the freedom of US citizens.

Isnt pretending to know the mind of your neighbor fun. Tell me what you believe and stop telling me what I believe, leave that up to me. By the by, I dont hate the real god, I just hate your fake god.