Beverely, you realize there are more "socialist" countries than the former USSR and China, right?

Here we go again!

The writer's concept of "socialism" has been discussed on these pages many times. It may be assumed that the Deseret News feels obligated to print such letters just to fulfill some need to remind us of impending doom. However, accusations that the United States is becoming "socialist" nation is just a figment of the writer's misdirected imagination since the term is so misused to discribe anything that the anti-tax people don't like.

Perhaps the writer and her supporters should review their reading of the Constitution and gain a better understanding of representative government. Instead of calling anything funded through taxation "socialism", they might be better served taking a remedial course in democracy. Apparently, their beliefs are based on greed and selfishness.

It is impossible to take the writer seriously with the allusion to "godless communism" and "equality for everyone in poverty and misery" as her central point. This is an irrational conclusion based on a flawed understanding of a citizen's responsibilities in a democracy.

Statements of "gloom and doom" are bandied about to support a philosophy of "I don't want to pay for anything or anyone that I don't like, so I'll call it socialism."

Why are the people of Denmark the world's happiest? Why are life expectancies in the US dropping?

Neither socialism nor communism are, as the writer says, political systems. They are economic systems and can exist in any political system from democracy to monarchy.

The writer also errs in this statement: "We have many socialist programs in our country, all in the name of compassion. We are capable of compassion on our own as citizens without government redistribution of our resources."

Obviously not! We have never done so without government interdiction.

And then: "I challenge people to read the stories of those who have lived under the harsh circumstances of these dictatorships and see how well it worked for them. "

Perhaps the writer should take a trip to Norway, Sweden, Denmark, and Finland. Those places are socialist but hardly harsh conditions (well, maybe the winter weather) or dictatorships. It seems to work pretty well for them, doesn't it? I suppose her next letter will allege that socialist countries are "slave states." She is completely ignorant of capitalist slavery that is more harsh than any other form.

There is an obvious difference in views between Gus & what and Beverly. Most of us believe (or claim to) that Gus and I do not have the right to Beverly's money, without us providing her some goods or services to her. If we were to go to her home and take what we wanted we would be criminals. However, if Gus, Beverly and I were to form a government and Gus and I were to vote to claim some of Beverly's money as our own and then go to her home and take her money we would not be criminals. If she resisted she would be the criminal. Call it what you want (socialism or somelthing else), but Beverly (and I) believe that to be wrong. Gus and "what" apparently do not. If I do not have the right to claim the property of someone else, why do I have the right to expect the government to act as my agent and do it for me? The principle is simple. Government derives its powers from the governed. If the governed don't have the right to do it individually the government doesn't have the right to do it either.

The word socialism, like the word liberal is the latest catch-all buzzword our nasty neocons like to use to demonize their political opponents.

And in focusing on trying to divide the country they become the ugliest of Americans.

Perhaps this newspaper prints comments supporting the Constitutional representative republic that conservatism represents because The LDS church (which owns the paper) teaches that the government of the United States (in the beginning) was inspired by God. Attempts by liberal left Democrats to dismiss the constitution as a living and breathing document and the original government as antiquated is antithetical to the idea of an inspired governmental system. Socialism, Communism, Fascism or Progressivism are all opposites of the original intent of the founding fathers who were inspired by God.

America's greatest allies are highly socialistic. Things are much better in Europe, Canada and Japan than they are here.
Healthcare in a place like Cuba is much better than it is in the US, with lower infant mortality rates and longer life spans.

Individuals can show compassion. They can also be astoundingly selfish and greedy. If our governments' role doesn't include caring for the citizens at some level as one of its' core responsibilities, why do we have any government? I think we're really losing ourselves in the conservative hyperbole.

To Ugly Americans 5:48, you sure are ugly in your inflammatory writing, but hey, you are at least entitled to your own opinion, even if it is horribly off base. Now, go to work, get absorbed in your work and don't write in again until you can say something nice.

Has Beverly ever lived outside of Kearns, Utah I doubt it. It is for sure up Capitalism that this country is is danger of going under. Pure greed and pure slavery is not an answer either. I love people who have never lived outside of their space to know the world and how it works elsewhere. America is not number one at everything but is becoming number one is failing its people

Capitalism has served us so well here in the country we all can afford food and health care and every one is taken care of.

I agree. Why do we provide schools in poor neighborhoods? Why do we pave roads in rural areas that don't generate enough tax revenue to do that themselves? Why do we provide police for everyone and raise a national army to protect those who cannot hire Blackwater. I am fed up with the socialism in this nation. Next thing you know we won't jail homosexuals and will allow atheists to freely practice their godless religion.

Many comments on the Deseret News threads refer to EU nations as examples that socialism works. This is an error. Not in that these nations don't work, but in that they aren't necessarily socialist. Most EU countries now have lower corporate tax rates than the United States. Most of them have very restrictive immigration policies. Most of them have fewer subsidies to distort their markets. Many, especially Sweden, have created private accounts for social security. EU securities regulation and public accounting policies are generally more flexible than in the US.

Which goes to show (please listen Pelosi and Reid), if you create a business-friendly tax and regulatory environment, government will have less trouble funding socialized medicine and subsidizing year-long maternity leaves (among other lovely things).

Denmark is not the beacon on a hill socialists would like you to believe it is. In the past 30 yrs. those supported by the state has tripled, while the population has stayed constant. Sooner or later their will be more people in the safety net than holding it up. Crime has increased five-fold in the past 50 yrs. Live expectancy has remained the same in the past 40 years, while most industrialized countries have increased. Denmark continues to take productive citizens' money and give it to the lazy (not all are lazy). Because of this fact, property rights have been diminished.

This is the path that the US is going down if we don't correct our course away from SOCIALISM!! Social Security is in trouble, the government has overspent and is in debt and now it wants to take over the healthcare system in this country. It pretty much ruins everything it touches. Stupid politicians think they know better than those who really create the wealth in this country. Their idea to lower gas prices is to tax the oil companies and raise the gas tax. Idiots!

Such a simplistic view of the word socialism is what the reich-wing of the GOP is counting on. They cant just count on people with no understanding of the world, they must count on people who will take their sound bite understanding and think they know all about the world.

The rhetoric of socialism if overblown. All nations have some form of socialized programs. I don't hear too many people calling for the end of our socialized fire and police departments!

As for Europe, most of you reading this post would be better off with health care if you lived in France. I promise.

RE Ugly Americans
Who is it that constantly tries to divide the country? It is the liberals. They pit the rich against the poor. They state that the rich don't pay their fair share of taxes, yet 50% of the riches taxpayers pay 97% of the taxes. That leaves the other 50% of taxpayers to pay the remaining 3%. Doesn't sound like the rich aren't paying their fair share to me.

Why should those who work hard for their money be penalized by having the government take their money and give it to someone else? The US Government has spent nearly $7 trillion on welfare since the mid 1960s and what do they have to show for it? Nothing. We still have people who are poor. But is it the same people? In most cases no. Thirty years ago I was considered poor. I was a struggling student with little income. But over the years I have been able to raise a family and buy a home through hardwork and by saving my money.

Beverly, as have other greedy people, has bought into the conservative argument that they as human beings have certain rights such as the right to own private property.

When a person dies there are no rights and it's for sure that the person can't take any of the private property that may have been acquired in the lifetime.

The only rights that a person has is those given to us by other people in the here and now. Often only given in a trade for rights that we give to others.

For the most part most of us do not have much private property yet we buy into the private property argument of the big and powerful people who have enslaved ordinary folks and used the private property argument to justify their greedy grab of money, wealth and property.

For many of us the good life comes from the sharing of world resources in a system that the conservatives call socialism.

RE Europe
I don't equate using tax dollars to support the police and fire departments the same as taking my hard earned money and giving it to someone else. They are not the same. One is providing services for the masses and the other is stealing.

Beverly really needs to step back and look at the big picture. Even better, don't look at pictures or formulate them in your mind when reading the media slants (particularly those stories with "soaring", "skyrocketing", "plummeting", etc., all craftily designed to forecast emotional doom and gloom: are you listening DN?) - go to other parts of the world and see for yourself and best of all, talk to people! Oh, before you go, read up on their histories, and for heaven's sake, learn a little bit about and speak their languages, such that you can communicate with them.

You may come to the conclusion that I did several decades ago, that different political and economic systems often have some merits and if you could just take the best from each, things would be much better for each individual human being. Right now we have to deal with capitalism going amok. Do I really need to give you examples?

By the way, please don't play the "godless" card. He/She probably has better things to do than be overly concerned what has been going on in the mere moments of centuries.

RE Anonymous
Are you calling conservative GOPers Nazis ("reich-wing")? After all, hasn't it been the socialistic and communistic countries that have killed millions over the past 70 years? Remember Stalin, Pol Pot, Hitler as a few examples.

The key term is social democrat rather than socialism. The two concepts are completely different. European countries are of social democrat, which is the balance of capitalism and socialism, the middle, not the extreme left or right. Otherwise, JK Rowlings would not be the richest person of England!

Capitalism isn't the answer. Look what happened to MCI, Enron, etc. Pure capitalism leads to human greed which is far worse than the social democrat. The key is, everyone does contribute and everyone does partake. There are no freebies as you would like "socialism" to be.

I have debated and talked much with friends who grew up in Europe, they work at prestigious places like John Hopkins, but still prefer their social democrat over American capitalism.

Again, too extreme to either direction is bad, the middle ground is where we need to be.

Without changing a single word, this letter could have arrived at DN from about 1955 on. Did someone check the postmark, or can we look forward to other letters warning us about the Soviet Union and its allies Czechoslovakia and Yugoslavia?

Anti-socialist are all talk. They don’t really want to live the way they preach. If they did, they would find a way to pay for all the services they receive that other people have paid for – for THEM.

They would send a check when they sent their children to school – one that covered the actual cost of salaries, buildings, books, etc.

When a policeman arrived at a fender-bender they would send a check to cover the cost of the officer’s time, the car, the gas, the uniform, etc.

When the snow-plow comes to clear their street, they would run out and give the driver a check to pay for his time, the truck, the salt, etc.

If you don’t like it, don’t just complain about socialism start setting the example. Start paying for the services you are using that others help pay for.

A few years ago we had a visitor from Germany. As we drove home from the airport she stared out the window and I asked her what she thought of Utah so far. She asked how many families live in each of the homes she could see from the freeway. I said usually just one. She was amazed at how many individual family homes she could see. She said that most people in Germany live in government provided apartments and if you wanted a bigger better one you had to be on a waiting list for years. She said only rich people lived in their own home and there weren't very many of them. That may not be the case everywhere in Germany, but that was reality for her and her family. I kind of like our way of life here.

Might as well get used to this:

The last bastion of Neoconservatism is Utah.
The rest of the country has figured out the who, where, what and why's of the current administration's BS. and has already made up its mind.
Post all the lunatic Limbaughesque nonsense you want.
America (the country I USED to know) is on the way back from its darkest days of wiretapping, terror, torture, preemptive wars, bankrupted country.
Thank God!

RE DBG
European countries are second rate. They have high unemployment, low productivity and high taxes. Call it "social democracy" or socialistic, the results are the same. I think capitalism, for all its flaws, is head and shoulders above socialism.

Personal gain is a pretty good motivator to bring products and services to the masses. Who is going to be motivated to do anything if they know the government will take their wealth through taxes? What is my motivation if I can make as much money by staying home and having the government take care of me? Socialism doesn't work. One of the problems in the old USSR was that they couldn't find anyone to work, because whether you worked or not didn't have any effect on your standard of living.

Both candidates for president voted to continue the wiretapping practices of the Bush administration. Perhaps the neocons are not quite dead.

I don't know that "Socialism" iteslf is hurting American (Yet).

It's the attitude that leads to Socialism (people not wanting to work or refusing to take responsibility for themself and their actions) that hurts America.

Wouldn't it be nice if the Beverlys of the world could sit down and really listen to the progressives; and vice versa? Then go on to design something better than either has come up with yet? Nobody wants to quash incentive,but you can't just let people die on the streets.

No doubt Ms. Wardle, et al, who burn with capitalist hatred for the socialist practices of this country dutifully return any social security checks received. And God forbid it should come to this, but I know you'll starve before you'll use food stamps, which are a clear example of the government redistributing wealth from those who've rightfully earned it. Consistency--that's what I admire.

Wiretapping?
You don't really think Obama would run risk of being called "traitor!" or "aiding the terrorists!" by going against this nasty administration's bogus war on terror, do you? Because that's how they got in the door in the first place.
Things take time and unlike impatient, blood-thirsty neocons will take the problem slowly, but surely.

Casey says: "The principle is simple. Government derives its powers from the governed. If the governed don't have the right to do it individually the government doesn't have the right to do it either."

You have got to start trying to think for yourself.

The governed (the citizens) have the right to wage war?

Conduct foreign diplomacy.

Raise and support Armies; provide and maintain a Navy; coin Money, regulate the Value thereof; make all Laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into Execution the foregoing Powers; make Treaties; appoint Ambassadors, other public Ministers and Consuls, Judges of the supreme Court; lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts, and Excises; Trial of all Crimes.

Can you do any of these things as one of the "governed," Casey?

Can you hold people in a cell, Casey, put them on trial, sentence them, execute them?

"If the governed don't have the right to do it individually the government doesn't have the right to do it either."

Casey try to think about things before you just repeat what you have heard others say.

Re: ? | 1:01 a.m. July 21, 2008

Why are the streets of Oslo filled with Heroin addicts?

Hey, michaelh, you say: "Attempts by liberal left Democrats to dismiss the constitution as a living and breathing document "

You do realize that the reason people say the constitution is a living document (I've never heard it referred to as breathing) is because it has the ability to be amended. Nothing sinister in having it referred to as a living document, in fact that is one of it's strong points.

It is not the bible, michaelh, it is not set in stone.

You also say: "Socialism, Communism, Fascism or Progressivism are all opposites of the original intent of the founding fathers"

Do you think that unrestrained capitalism as practiced today was their original intent? Do you think they would support the massive power that modern corporations have?

Socialism is where the government has any control or influence over a sector of or the whole econony

Ms. Wardle is wrong. Communism is a "meaner" version of socialism. But, she is right that they are implemented differently. socialism is gradual; communism is by coup d'etat i.e. Russia 1917.

As Milton Friedman said, "The greatest advances of civilization, whether in architecture or painting, in science and literature, in industry or agriculture, have never come from centralized government."

I’m a liberal. I have dreams of having a successful business and wealth factors in to my dreams. The Kennedy’s are wealthy and liberal. You can have both.

Taking you money and giving it to others. Rush Limbaugh your hero makes millions, ever takes time to could his wealth as a blessing and only whines about taxes. This attitude of “I’ve got mine,” figures. Conservatives say they support our troops, while they won’t pay for the war our troops are fighting. Don’t conservatives really just want a free ride?

The return on the GI was 5 dollars to each dollar spent. We didn’t spend tax dollars, we invested in Americans and this benefited us all. The government has taken money and invented the Internet, radar, sonar, jet engines, nuclear energy, satellite communications, weather satellites, GPS, computers, our system of highways and much more. How much wealth has been created by our tax dollars being invested in futuristic ideas that corporations would touch? You can argue, without government, there would be no Bill Gates.

And America does NOT have its share of Heroin addicts?
Or anti-depressant abusers right here in Utah?

In the end, the only thing our brother and sister Neocons can honestly stake claim to, is that they made Rush Limbaugh a very, very wealthy man.

Having a PHD in economics I found so many errors in AGKI's comments that I felt obliged to comment.
First, socialism and communism are political systems which also control economics. Socialism creates large amounts of government provided subsistance for many and it's tax structure often runs in the 60-80% range resulting in little desire to work and little if any chance for financial independence. Communism has many of the same problem issues as socialism, unless you team it with capitalism (like China). It's major problem is total people control and priviledges for the prolitariate, military, friends and families.
AGKI's example of the baltic states socialist governments being successful is true but only because they have zero population growth, very small militaries which bear little if any international responsibilities, however, they offer little chance for financial independence. AGKI's claim that capitalism is political is in error, it is an economic system, his assertion that America and capitalism are the world's worst slavery entity are beneath contempt, when compared to some African counties and Myanmar.

Sorry Ultra Bob, I think you are wrong in that you say: "The only rights that a person has is those given to us by other people in the here and now"

The rights we have are inalienable. They are innate. They come to us via being a living creature, being a part of nature. Our rights are given to us by no one and nothing. They are ours by our mere existence.

Our rights can never be given to us by anyone, they are no ones to give. They can only be taken away by tyrants.

Sometime ago a friend was describing to me the Mormon United Order that was tried sometime ago by the Mormon church.
When I responded that it sounded like communism to me he said "no under communism the government owns everything, under the United Order God owns everything.

Read your lil story about your friend visiting from Germany and so amazed at our single family homes. So I did a search of real estate in Germany. My cursory search found many single family homes.

This one for $265,000 (yes dollars) caught my eye:

"Sitting on the banks of the River Prum, the site of the Upper Mill dates back to 1278. The property was substantially redeveloped in circa 1818. The property currently consists of 5 buildings, totalling approximately 1,300m² on a site of 0.56 hectares. There is approximately 200 metres of river frontage with fishing rights."

I wish you could see the picture. Beautiful. And yes it states it is a single family.

I also found this beautiful detached villa for 24,000 euros:

"This beautiful and old villa with a classic fassade has enormous potential. The main house has about 225 m2 living area. The property along with large out buildings (used as dairy, more then 200 m2) occupies a large plot of some 3.863 m2. A garden ..."

Again, wish you could see the picture of this one, charming.

MC, didn't say anything about being on a waiting list for any amount of time. Pay my money and it is mine. Could your friend have came over here before the reunification? Did you friend live in east Germany?

These arguments between US and Europe are entertaining enough, but largely miss the point. The US is capitalist in some ways, socialist in others. Same with Europe. There are virtues and vices on both sides of the Atlantic. But I suppose this is too boring a post. So let me add: Neo-cons Rule!!!

Tim tell us "Neo-cons Rule!"

They only thing I see neocons ruling are each other.
Everyone else is wise to these wise-acres who are trying so desperately to divide our country.

Bad socialism has hurt America. Bad capitalism has also hurt America (Enron type scandals).

Good Socialism has helped America, (public funding of schools).

Good Capitalism has also helped America.

The fastest growing sector of socialism is the push to collectivize transportation. Under the guise of improving the environment and reducing congestion, nearly $20 billion is planned, with more on the horizon, to be diverted to UTA's All-RAils-Lead-to-Salt-Lake-City Envision-Utah scam.

Current rail-focus is a pitiful imitation of the great electric interurban and Trolley networks we had a century ago.... A CENTURY! Even Peter Calthorpe, the Envision Utah guru has stated, at the 2005 CNU conference, that trains and light rail are poor 19th century modes that won't work well for his new development plans. Yet, our brilliant, poorly informed, socialist-minded politicians can't give billion$ away to UTA fast enough. They helped UTA con us into billion$ in new taxes on car-users.

They have even turned a blind eye to multiple UTA counting scandals, the highly critical, 100-page, Legislative audit of UTA, and many UTA misrepresentations.

Socialist groupthink is the order of the day in the Huntsman Administration.

BTW, the Legislative Audit pointed out that UTA buses creat far more NOx, the worst pollutant, than TRAX or Vanpools prevent. Now the situation is growing worse, as FrontRunner's heavy NOx emissions wipe out all potential new TRAX NOx reductions.

Mike Packard

Milton Friedman was, as usual, 100% wrong. It's hard to point to any great achievement of the past that WASN'T the result of a central gov't initiative: the Parthenon, the Pyramids, the Great Wall, the discovery of America, the development of nuclear power, the moon landing. People acting together can achieve great things, Milton Friedman's ideological blindness notwithstanding.