after Driving throu Hildale and seeing the town in near ruin from the Wisan effect, Im glad to see them doing something about it. every person that has Driven out there and seen it and remebers what it was like before Will agree with me.

Wisan will win as long as he can keep the fight in his Pocket Court, if it ever gets out and into a real court, it will come crashing down on him and prob pull some AG's and personal Judges down with him, ether way should be a good show

Wisan wants to evict the people he is supposed to help. That should be enough to oust him.

57 homes = 1000 people? is that a typo, or do they really have an avg of 18 people living in each house?

If it's 18 people in each house, that's just rediculous. I guess they never heard of family planning.

And what's the big deal with paying $100 a month? Don't they get enough food stanps to be able to afford that? Given the rediculous prices on their clothing website, they should cover that easily (assuming they sell anything...)

and to About Time - what does $100 a month have to do with maintaining the properties? I thought these people were supposed to be such hard workers. Can't they paint or mow a lawn? Very bizarre....

I have asked you numerous times on numerous posts if you are Elissa Wall. Can't you answer, or are you not suppose to tell?

You sound alot like Elissa with your SURE ideas of how the FLDS are. You couldn't possibly say all those things about them, only on the bases of HEARING them, you would have to KNOW, wouldn't you?

Sad your stories are so twisted, you must of been away for quite some time!

Utah courts, particularly this court and judge, have, thus far, gotten away with abusing the civil liberties of many FLDS members. Hopefully our own Utah Supreme Court has the intestinal fortitude (guts) to stop it, like the Texas Supreme Court did.

I keep forgetting that obeying laws are taking away from someones civil liberties!! Bullpucky, when these people with numerous assets quit abusing the system, then maybe people will acre alot more. The amount of government aid given in those two towns alone is astronomical. One study found almost 1 MILLION a year in food stamps!!! erudite I thought that you people didn't have the internet?

To !:45

I'm sure there are more than just Elissa wall out there who have had run ins with the polygamist FLDS, and to know how mentally twisted those FLDS truly are. Give it a break! Would you want anyone to know if you had once had bad associations or bad experience with those nutsO people?

So a million a year in food stamps really bothers some people.

They have to qualify for food stamps just like everyone else.

I would love to see the food stamp bill for other cities.

Whine whine whine........go ahead and complain.
Perhaps everyone that qualifies for government assistance should apply. Free cheese tastes great so I am told.

Food stamps can't be used to pay bills but I hear that the drug dealers will take them at 50cents on the dollar.

Everyone seems jealous of the fact that those people have found a way to live that looks easier than the way you have chosen. Rather than complain about them you might want to reevaluate your choices.

If you like your lifestyle and religion just live it......thou shalt not covet pretty much covers the rest.

yes - I'm Elissa Wall. Want my autograph? LOL - you crack me up. You think everyone is ex-FLDS.

How can I possibly say all those things? I didn't say it - the author of the article did. Nothing I said isn't common knowledge, regularly admitted to by the FLDS.

18 people as an avg per house is just stupid. And $100 is nothing to rent land for a house, especially if you're going to have 18 people living in it!. Can't each person chip in $6 a month? And why is everything in disarray if the FLDS are such hard workers? Food stamps won't buy paint?

So how do these questions make me ex-FLDS? I think you people are an abusive cult that robs children of their God-given right to a future. And the fact that you do so IN GOD'S NAME makes it all the more blasphemous (and I'm not even a religious person). Now - at least 80% of Americans feel the same way I do. Are we all Ellisa Wall?

You think the world is out to get you. You're right. Come out of the shadows and free the children and we'll leave you alone.

Too funny, must have struck a nerve!! How much you getting a month. Yes we should reward people for being lazy and while we are at it, lets become a socialist state. Get over yourself, ty!!

zxcvbnm - a million a year for food stamps is a drop in the bucket. It's just too bad these people are so lazy that they have to continually be on food stamps. I guees being stuck on stupid for generations really pays off....

Re: Realitycheck
WELL SAID!... I fully and totally agree with you. I couldn't have said it better myself. Thanks for your post.

We drove past Colorado City and it is appalling. I said, why are the houses half finished and not painted...then I learned it is so they don't have to pay taxes on them. It was really depressing...seeing the town that way. It didn't look cheerful to me. And yes, they have to fit at least 16 people in each house...wives and offspring from one polygamist man. Dismal and depressing if you ask me. The system is faulty at best..ripping off the taxpayers, abusing young girls as child brides, sending all the favorites to the Texas ranch, transporting girls across borders to hide them from their families, ousting men and boys, assigning women and children to other men. It's all abominable..like a house built on sand. The women and children live in poverty. People are going to buy the clothes for Halloween you know.

re - Anonymous 3:49pm

yes - the women and children live in hellish conditions... but they will get to go to some special place in heaven that us regular folks can't get into. Or so they hope.

Boy are they gonna feel stupid if it's all just a bunch of bull handed down by their forefathers so the men could have lots of wives and children to do all the chores....

I think I'd want to know FOR SURE before I wasted my entire life. After all, if heaven is heaven and we all go to the same place, they missed out on a lot of fun here on earth.

God certainly never meant for His people to miss out on all life has to offer. He probably thinks it's sacreligious....

has anyone read that new Book "How to Steal a City in America" by Bruce Wisan Illistrated by Denise P. Lindberg? interesting read.

The $ 100 per month is to pay their taxes etc. Remember the property is owned by the trust. Don't you have to pay property tax? These folks try to skate on every thing. Ask them what happened to Twin Cities Power when no one would pay their utility bills. Lots of FLDS posting on this site. Scamming is their way of life.

ah - I see the fake poster using my name is back, talking about some book, trying to be sarcastic.

nice try - but everyone knows my feelings on the FLDS. You'll have to do better than that.

what's really amusing is that the book should be called "How to destroy a home by squeezing in 18 people" or "I wish food stamps could buy paint cuz my house looks like crap". Could be a decent sit-com.

Or maybe "How to steal the future from generations of children, all in the name of God."

Why is it seemingly totally ignored that these people are living polygamy, albeit for religious reasons, but that polygamy in and of itself is against the law? Yes there are abuses of the system, etc. But polygamy is against the law in Utah. It is against the law in Arizona. It is against the law in America. Those who practice it can rationalize their behavior all they want by saying it is a command of their religion or their prophet, or by contrasting it to the conduct of others who have affairs and cheat on their spouses. But plain and simple, polygamy is a defiance of the law of the land.

re - unlawful:

first - polygamy is EXTREMELY difficult to prosecute.

second - I'm not sure that anyone really cares, as long as the participants are of age and willing.

But the secondary impact is that they feel the need to hide from society - because they think we care how many wives they have. That puts huge stresses and unreasonable burdens on the children, especially when the FLDS adults (who are really dim-witted drones) try to teach the children (who will grow up dim-witted because of who taught them.) Not the parents fault - more like their great-great-grandparent's fault. Generations of inbreeding and lack of education taking its toll.

This forces the childen to stay in the FLDS, and a continual cycle of dim-wittedness follows.

It's like a nun, raising a child in a convent, and only teaching religion and 2+2. Then when the child grows up, they stand no chance of becoming part of society. They are destined to remain in the convent. Totally unfair for the child. And for their children to come. And so on, and so on. For generations.

re: reality check: you provide excellent insight and make good points; but you seem to contradict yourself. You eloquently describe the "sins of the fathers" effect upon future generations of children and yet you state that no one cares. I refute that. That is exactly why we should, and many do, care to end this illegal practice. Because of the effect on children and future generations of same.

From your perspective, how do polygamists reconcile their conduct with Joseph Smith's declaration of "honoring and sustaining the law" (Article of Faith #12), or do they dismiss that document as irrelevant to them because it doesn't support them in their desired lifestyle?

for president of the United States.

I pay taxes on my home and it is a lot more than $100 a month. And for having the priviledge of having that home, I work 40 hours a week and pay my way.

I went back to work when my son was six months old, I didn't want to but I also didn't want to be on welfare either.

Unless the FLDS women are disabled in some way, the should also be working so they don't have to collect food stamps.

But I guess thats not how to bleed the beast.

"The $ 100 per month is to pay their taxes etc. Remember the property is owned by the trust. Don't you have to pay property tax?"
===========================
No, the $100 has nothing to do with property taxes. It's supposedly for infrastructure costs. The taxes are a separate matter and were never late in the 60+ years that Wisan wasn't running the UEP. It wasn't until he took over that things went to pot.

"FLDS adults (who are really dim-witted drones) try to teach the children (who will grow up dim-witted because of who taught them.) Not the parents fault - more like their great-great-grandparent's fault. Generations of inbreeding and lack of education taking its toll."
==========================
When will you ever quit with your nonsense, realitycheck? I don't know why I even bother responding to you anymore. All you want to believe is the worst about us, and any mention of success, education, happiness, and enjoyment is completely dismissed from your mind. How did the uneducated FLDS members manage to build such a magnificent temple? How did they manage to create those websites?

"I pay taxes on my home and it is a lot more than $100 a month. And for having the priviledge of having that home, I work 40 hours a week and pay my way."
========================
Would you be willing to believe me that I work a lot more than 40 hours a week to earn my keep? I'm not on any welfare, either. I've had to pay several thousands in medical bills because I don't even have any sort of medical insurance (which might not be a bad idea, after the fact...)

"Unless the FLDS women are disabled in some way, the should also be working so they don't have to collect food stamps."
====================
There are several FLDS women working jobs to earn income. There are also several who stay home with their children. What business is it of yours whether they're working a job or not?

RE: I vote for Reality Check,

Thanks. I wish everyone had your insightfulness. Until now I thought nobody was really reading my post's. Anybody else ot there care to muster up? I will guarantee a reality check for every single American who votes for me. Except the flds though. Huh-uh.

re:From the Creek

Hey, tough stuff!
Give up the polygamy and then we can talk.

They live in unfinished houses to keep taxes low.......no mortgage either.

Some of you need to try it. You won't have to work so hard paying a banker or the tax man. Put the money in the bank......if you can find one that won't fail.

Chase the american dream all you want.....they have their own dreams.

Jealousy rears it's ugly head....try reading A Road Less Traveled.......rather than the fiction from the exflds book peddlers.

Grow your own food.....save the grocery store trips for staples. Collectively buy a car.....save on car insurance. Build your own house.......no mortgage.

These people are ahead of their time........we will all revert to the 19th century before the present economic situation is over.

Its my business because I pay the taxes so they can sit on their dimwitted butts & collect welfare. If the daddy's were stand up guys they would be taking care of them and they wouldn't need tax payer assistance. It seems like the daddies are no where to be found in most cases.

Just because they continue to breed doesn't mean the the working class tax payers should pay for it.

Anytime a person who is capable of working and collects any kind of welfare, it is wrong. If you want to support them start sending your checks to them so the rest of us don't have to.

Clearly you are one of the few educated (at lease above the third grade) FDLS and I cannot believe that you support suppressing these women and girls. Please explain why you think it is okay for these women & children to be kept from the real world and not be priviledged enought to get the same education as you.

You seem to be one of the privledge ones that gets to go out & see the real world?

re - the poser using my name at 8:05pm -
why pretend you are me? don't be skerred - use your own name. don't be afraid. it's ok.

re - Unlawful 6:04pm
sorry - I have no idea what you are talking about. I know Joseph Smith is important in your religion, but I have no clue about Articles of Faith or any of that. Personally, I'm agnostic (but was raised Roman Catholic). Only reason I post here is I hate to see children's lives wasted.

re - From the Creek
You act like you represent the majority of FLDS when you don't. You have 18 people living in your house? You have an 8th grade education? Most do, and you know it.
You state that the women in FLDS can choose, yet very few choose to go to college. WHAT DOES THAT TELL YOU? Has it occurred to you AT ALL that it is a result of their environment and upbringing? Do you REALLY believe it is strictly a result of free will? Do you even promote education? Face the facts - you hold your children back. It's the only way you can ensure your membership doesn't decline.

My brother in law grew up there. He has 57 siblings. I have learned this from him:
1-The reason they don't want to sign occupancy agreements is because then they would be dealing with someone outside of the faith and they refuse to do that.
2-The houses are unfinished on the outside because of taxes and also because Warren told them to stop spending money on anything extra and give it to the "Church" so they flat out can't afford to. That's why the town looks like that. Its Jeffs that made that town fall apart.
3-These people work very hard all of their life. They start working when they are 4 or 5. The women work just as hard, even with all those children, but they aren't allowed to own anything so any money they make goes to their husband and to the "Church"
4-They never owned the houses-the "Church" did. The committee is now trying to get the houses back to the original owners or the people who live in them now- but it is hard when the people won't trust anyone not of their faith
These are good people but they are brainwashed and misled.

The FLDS aren't the first to do the unfinished house thing to avoid taxes! Many of the old Spanish missions (San Xavier del Bac, near Tucson is an example) were faced with the tax problem when the king of Spain declared a tax on all completed churches within his realm. So the Padres, not being stupid, left many a church with one tower unfinished!
Makes me mad that the more you do to fix up your house, the higher your taxes go. It's like the harder you work and the more income you have--you're taxed at a higher percentage. Penalizing someone for doing well--makes no sense unless you believe that all property REALLY belongs to the government and the government should decide how much a person is allowed to have.
So--I don't know how this trust thing will work out, but problems concerning the division of communally-owned property when some want to leave the commune, order, or religion, has brought many of communal society down--unless the force of government is behind it, as in political communism. Study your history--there are many communal examples in American history, most of which have NOTHING to do with polygamy.

If everyone is so concerned about the food stamp problem just let the women marry the men........yep polygamy. Solves the unwed mother problem.

It is a requirement that the mothers have to name the fathers to get food stamps in Texas, or any government assistance for that matter. Perhaps that is why they didn't apply for food stamps in Texas.

You talk about working hard and paying taxes ........many families work hard and pay taxes but need food stamps just to survive.......even military families qualified while I was in the service......many moons ago.

It really is amazing how the anger comes out as people believe that other people are getting away with something. Everyone on this blog can live as simply as the flds and follow the same laws and save a few bucks.

Those people simply take the time to read the laws and walk close to the edge. It isn't illegal to do 69.9 mph in a 70 zone. It even looks like they may have beaten the new Texas marraige laws........time, and DNA, will tell.

To To From the Creek:
It would be in your best interest to first clean up the grammar and spelling in your own post before attacking the FLDS for their education or lack thereof. I'm not one of the few educated; I'm one of the many. The women and children can get the same education I have, and many have a lot more formal schooling than I have. The women and children go out and "see the world" all the time and are every bit as "priviledged" as the men.

Realitycheck,
I only represent myself and the experiences I have been through. However, I live among these people, and what you put forth as what is common, I see as the exception. You ask "Do you even promote education?" Of course I do and so do my religious leaders. My parents were very adamant that I did well in school and that I was successful in life.

Of course our upbringing has a lot of weight in the choices we make. It's the same for you and anyone else. What about the Amish? Are you as concerned for their children?

You still didn't answer my question! Did you actually SEE all those things you are accusing the FLDS of, or only HEAR it? If I was to hear something really juicy about you, would it be right for me to beleive it only apon the bases of hearing it?

As I've said millions of times, the only reason I think you are Elissa is because you are EVER SO SURE these things happen. Did you live in the FLDS before? How can you KNOW?

Sad thing about it is your stories are ever so twisted, must have been away for quite some time!

Poodle Whacker & Reality Check

I appreciate your knowledge of the FLDS group. To say someone has 57 sibblings gives it away, I can think of 2 last names
that might fit that statement. Most here know to little to be making statements to defend the ranks of the faithful. In the
1989 deposition by Rulon Jeffs, few in the FLDS were even permitted to know where their tithing went. The UEP merely
covered the land holdings, while MAJESTIC TRUST and other shell corporations diverted tithing and business profits to
the personal lifestyles of a few.

Texas should have thought out their raid better, bringing in more witnesses and better documentation, but was in to much
of a hurry with a judge that already supported the action. The overkill going in armed, had to do with a history of arms
purchased. The 100 S.A.M. 180 service assault rifles purchased by Louis Barlow in 1981, suggested a potential and
risk to DPS & CPS staff. Authorities had the serial numbers of these weapons, in 1981 it was no fantasy then!

However fact and fiction is what makes good press and sales newspapers!

you all probably wonder why I am so against the FLDS. It's not polygamy - that's for sure. If you can get more than one woman to marry you, and you can live with that, more power to you. (My Hispanic wife's a handful - more than one of those would be too much.)

My problem is that religion IS THEIR ENTIRE LIFE. They give everything to the church, they preach for hours on end to their children, they make people wear a uniform. I mean, religion is important in any upbringing, but damn - you people just go way overboard. You're screwing up your children. I don't know how else to put it... it's just rediculous in this day and age to miss out on all the opportunities in life simply because your great grandparents did.....

You all remind me of one of the old western movies where the minister is walking down the town's dusty street with 50 women and signs about the temperance league.

hahaha I love how the FLDS defend the food stamp abuse by saying; "hey, they qualify so it's okay"
if these whacko's would really be self sufficient and marry of-age ..i wouldn't have any problem with them.....

don't forget that they double dip by spending the food stamps at the church owned store, then get reimbursed with $ to send to texas

ZXCVBNM! Please do tell me which city is in Teaxs, is it Hildale or Colorado City? You seem very clueless as you keep referring to Teaxs laws! Glad your staying on track!!