The truth of the matter is he probably wasn't part of the "EVANCICAL" conspiritors reaching out (in the name of Love) but reallly trying to steal their property.

I wundur y the 1st Babtust busses didn't bring them kids back home?

Kudos to the Deseret, you're only two weeks behind the Eldorado Success which reported the story first.

Actually, the search warrants are not really important. Authorities had a right to enter YFZ Ranch because of alleged vicims' calls to domestic violence hotlines. Once they were inside there was evidence in plain view.

But, this information ar lease proves there is no reason for overzealous FLDS supporters to harass this person.

Interloper: If there had been "evidence" of child abuse in plain view the appeals court and the Texas Supreme Court would not have said there was no "evidence" to justify the removal of all the children.

The evidence of child abuse were the pregnant teens.

The pregnant teens were being hidden and moved about. The pregnant teens were concealing their ages.

The pregnant teens were grown adults up to 37 years old.

Contrarian, the appeals court ruled there was not sufficient evidence to keep all the children in custody. It did NOT rule there was no evidence of child abuse at YFZ Ranch. The Supreme Court affirmed. The Texas judicial system retains jurisdiction over the cases while the civil and criminal investigations continue.

One thing remains unchanged. The Bigots who want to believe that there was abuse, will always claim that the evidence was in plain sight, even if there was no evidence whatsoever and the 'evidence' was fabricated or a product of overactive perverted imaginations.

It would be difficult at best to make the claim of probable cause a justification for the search based on fraudulent information, and that is what triggered this event. CPS and the rangers knew it was a hoax call before their entry onto the FLDS owned property.

The sad thing is that even when the truth is printed, the Blogger Bigots you see here on the comment boards still have a different version etched in their small brains and will still want 'those people' to pay for their crimes.

IF there was abuse, it should be punished. IF CPS and law enforcement abused their position and exceeded the law, they should be punished.

Let's wait, and let the legal system do it's job like it should before we lynch anyone.

I think that maybe those FLDS women should take up selling *Secret to Youth* beauty products. Whatever they were using worked well enough to make CPS and the courts think they were 10 to 15 years younger than they really were. Absolutely amazing!

INTERLOPER: The appeals court ruled there was NO EVIDENCE to warrant the removal of the children. Read the ruling, and print correct info when you post.

The last trick in the CPS's hat involves a Girl who met the Texas Laws for marriage in 2005 before the Law was changed.

Of course fighting the Attorney General of Texas is a hard job for a Lawyer. They got child support ordered in one case where the Couple was living together.

This is just standard procedure. There are two judges, a lower county judge and a higher district judge. The lower county judge hears small cases and the district judge hears major cases. Murder, rape, other felonies are heard at the district level. The county judge hears cases like small claims court cases.

There is no way a county judge would sign a search warrant investigating felony behavior. Having the search warrant signed by the district judge would be standard procedure. The county judge is probably extremely relieved he doesn't have any responsibility for this matter. Situations such as this can be political career killers.

The best advice at this point for the FLDS is to continue explaining their side of the story. The underage marriage is the most serious crime and everyone on the outside knows that under normal circumstances 14 year-olds don't walk up to their parents and state that they are ready to marry and no 14 year-olds want to be handed over to old men. Whatever led up to 14 year-olds marrying older men, whether it be a perverted leader or a family that wants to ditch its teen child, has to be corrected.

In two words, their secret to youth is "healthy eating." ::: raw home-grown veggies and fruits, homemade bread from home-ground whole wheat flour, raw milk from healthy cows, etc.

In other words they avoid processed foods containing all kinds of additives intended to prolong supermarket shelf life therefore putting $$$ into corporate coffers rather than health into human beings.

Self-discipline, determination to grow their own food and not fall for the easy, MAN-ufactured so-called 'foods' mainstream society stuffs themselves with every day - week - month - year is what does the trick.

And one of the most important things is that they do this from cradle to grave.

The locals spent four years talking about how "those people" had to be stopped.

The JP flew over the place routinely to keep an eye on the ranch.
The sheriff spent four years with an "informant" gathering "evidence:.

At county fairs for several years the flds were made fun of and the locals sold t-shirts and hats declaring themselves the polygamy capital of texas.

The state rep. from the area made laws targeting the FLDS.

Interviews of the locals after the raid congradulated the LE for finally doing something about "those people"

The regional paper discontinued the comment section when the tide turned against the raid.

The local paper printed slanted articles for several years before the raid.

Time to pay for the bigotry people........time to pay.

Zealotry invariably results in disinformation. The zealous substitute what they want to be true for facts. The same persons claiming there is no evidence against the men of YFZ Ranch claimed there was no evidence against Warren Jeffs. Even after criminals are in prison, they refuse to face the facts.

Look again Interloper. Jeffs was accused of being accomplice to a crime that was never committed. There was no evidence. He had no chance in court in Utah where LDS people are in power, including Mark Shurtleff. Notice the charges against him in other states aren't holding up either. They will have to eventually drop all charges, and Utah will have to be brought to justice for incriminating an innocent man. TRUTH WILL PREVAIL. Sorry to burst your bubble, but all your prejudice will make you miserable, and have no freinds in the end.

RE Interloper: Yep..look at the facts surrounding the Jeffs conviction. The man is convicted for performing a "marraige". Six of the ten charges against him have been dropped. The other charges are pending.

Future charges hinge on the legality of the "evidence" siezed in the raid.

Rape charges against him are based on the marraige that Jeffs officiated yet the rape charges against the husband of the victim have yet to be adjudicated.

Even the conviction of Jeffs is marginal at best and still may be overturned on appeal.

Noone says the man is totally innocent of everything. It is just that the whole process used to demonize him is rather shakey.

So far no one has proved more zealous in their bigotry than the Texas Child Protection Service.

For the record...

The Judge Johnny story started because of what an ABCNews associate inaccurately reported.

As for child abuse, the court of appeals ruled, and the supreme court agreed, that not one of the 3 prongs required for removal of the children was met.

That includes the "abuse" commented on above.

A pregnant teen is not some form of irrefutable evidence of abuse or a crime.

kbp.........Those pregant teens certainly weren't irrefutable proof of a crime. The pregnant teens were adults..........the crime was commited by CPS.

Except for the carrying a pair of concealed jet powered rocket pants, I never quite understood why Jeffs was on the FBIs 10 most wanted list.

Interloper, can you explain, so's it all makes good sense?

Re: wyomingkid41, you make a good point. Why didn't them Bubbatists bring them there kids back to the ranch? Run out of "minden' other folks bi'niss money?

I guess the Goverment of the People has some flaws.

It should say the Goverment for the few.

Useing the CPS as a tool of the Goverment hammer,
pounding the FLDS against the anvil of Texas Goverment Bigotry is the real crime.

How does a call to an abuse hotline (hoaxed) give the
CPS a right to remove over four hundred children from there homes?

A Judge who signed a warrant from such a hoaxed call
and the Military style raid that took place could have created another waco type of outcome.

If we as a nation decide that Religion and Spritual
beliefs are suspect to goverment intrusion, why
not stop all children from attending Catholic
services until the Vatican can be investagted for allowing the Preists under there supervison to contenue there pedophile ways.

Why not disallow the belief that we are one nation under god. What if people decide to beleive in multiple gods?

Interloper your bias is showing.

The legal blackmail that is occuring to the FLDS
can and will contenue to occur until the laws are
changed to allow total freedom from moral laws.

Why are there over a million people in jail for
smoking pot?

re - Wild Bill -

total freedom from moral laws? Repressing and isolating thousands of women and children is immoral and we should just say that's ok? wow - you're way out there.

We should enact new laws that prevent the abuse and confinement practiced by FLDS, but it would be impossible without putting pressure on the civil rights of others. So we are left with either accepting that thousands of women and children will be without their basic civil rights to freedom because of FLDS, or we try to free the women and children as Texas did.

I guess we should just give up on them and let them rot in the prison of their own making.....

HMMMMMMMMMM....... FORCED freedom. Isn't there another name for that? RC, when someone from FLDS approaches you and says, "Please free me," then feel free to act on that. Until then, BUTT OUT of their lives. Freeing the women and children is a FAR cry from what Texas did. More like "freeing" the children from their mothers. There is another term for that and it's called stealing. Perhaps you should be in the child kidnapping trade. I hear child trafficing is profitable; CPS does it by taking children away from their parents and then getting them adopted out to "better" homes (homes of their choice). You could launch a secret night raid on the ranch and steal/free all of those children and then parcel them out to homes of your choosing. At least then you'll stop whinning about all of those children being back home with their families where they belong.

HMMMMMMMM - I have not BUTTED INTO their lives. I have merely stated that they are REALLY bad parents that violate the civil rights of those in their care. Perhaps you should be in the child slave trade since you seem to think that is ok. You could launch a secret night raid and ensure all the children follow ridiculously subservient religious practices that remove all hope for a free future, and then call yourself a good parent.

At least then you will stop whining about concerned citizens criticising those that would lead their children down a lifetime of servitude.

I guess you like to raise little slave kids in a repressive environment, while I like to raise free-willed citizens that are more concerned with the freedoms of those who are repressed.

geez RC ,,....you finally got it. CPS violated their civil rights. They even took away their religious texts.

Wow...you've seen the light..........lol

The greatest form of flattery is mimicry. Thanks. Now, since you advocate everyone else having a mind of their own, feel free to get one of your own.

All local authorities were lied to about purpose of their land purchase, hundreds more people, many very vulnerable, underage, etc. were there than the local people in charge of these things were aware of. I 've heard they teach their youngsters that our space program never landed anyone on the moon, that dinosaurs never existed, and that a woman must be only one of a man's minimum of three simultaneous wives in order to get to heaven,no age is too young for marriage, and the guys each have to commit polygamy to go...that woman will surely go to hell if she cuts her hair, wears jewelry, etc... tell their youth that anyone that is not white, or has associated with non-white people, is a hopeless case. That any man with facial hair is a hopeless case, and anyone with short sleeves is a hopeless case.

That anyone that is not FLDS is a hopeless case. That anyone in the FLDS that disagrees with whomever they think is the leader at whatever point is a hopeless case. That a convicted felon, with numerous other serious charges against him, is a perfect man.They jump when he says to.

No problem, right?

Grandpa Phil - haven't changed my stance at all - just addressing your statements one at a time with statements that make sense, since your original ones were severly lacking. Just trying to help you so you won't sound so compassionless. Didn't know that using similar words (as in a debate) was mimicing. Perhaps I mimic your statements to address each one, but make no mistake - I don't mimic your callousness. You need a mind of your own so you can see reality, since you are stuck in the middle ages with your "parents own their children" attitude.

and zxcvbnm - perhaps you need to take ESL since you fail to understand that the parents were violating civil rights and the CPS was trying to fix the problem (albeit poorly.) of course, I realize you were being sarcastic - it's just too bad that's all you've got.

The kids are prisoners of their fanatical parents, and have no real future. Ok with you, but not OK with me. Not sure what you don't get...

RealityCheck,

Yes, at the point they aren't breaking the laws, regardless about how you (or anyone else) feels, there is NOTHING that can be done. This includes the inability to take their children.

At the point an _adult_ wants to leave the compound and is illegally detained, there is a case. But not before then.

Parents are in the position to violate (and must violate) the "civil rights" of their children. Parents as a course of their duty in punishment must do, and are allowed to do by law, things that could not be done to an adult (corporeal punishment, grounding, etc). Yes, within limits. Those limits are also set by law. Have the FLDS violated the law?

You note that its impossible to write laws to outlaw what the FLDS does without stepping on other people's civil rights. Perhaps... just perhaps, because they ARE within their civil rights.

it's amusing that more than half of the posters here support the FLDS and their treatment of women and children, yet almost all of America does not. You all think I'm hard on FLDS? Go to an article by a newspaper not in Utah and look at those comments.

Check the latest article on MSNBC about the prairie dresses, and see a real slice of opinion about these "parents". I'm actually pretty nice about it.....

The thought of the State of Texas rasing children is the real crime. The FLDS does not have any slaves or prisons. The State of Texas does how ever.

Attacking grammer and spelling does not make you
a better person smater or even nicer.

Just a person who likes to NAG,NAG,NAG.

I think your right about ownership. We really don't
own anything. Certainly you don't own your mind the media does. And how about those guys from the CPS.

Wow they really can through a party. Steal away
400 children with no proof of any wrong doing.
Now thats what I call fun and great family entertainment. Yes I can't spell very well.

I guess that puts me in the lower class with
Carl Sandberg amoung others.

The thought that people who live there faith,
however wrong it might seem to you, are being made criminal by some dumb assed Texans is the true crime.

Again the thought that one person is better or more right than the other. All people have the right to
think,eat, believe and live how they see fit.

I am sorry that all the people of earth don't fit
your ultimate solution thoughts.

I live in the state of Missouri and I don't think that the raid was right or that the FLDS parents are proved to be abusing their children. So don't say that other state residents are in lock step against the FLDS. I see similar dress here in the Ozarks where I now live, but having lived for thirty years in California, I have seen many different lifestyles. I thought this was "the land of the free", but maybe I'm wrong. Maybe the FLDS should ask Russia for sanctuary from persecution. Texas has been acting like we were taught the Russians used to do when I was growing up.

re - reply

not sure where you were going with the grammar and spelling, since I've never once criticised anyone's writing. And I would agree that Texas went about it wrong, although if they were going to it, I would have liked to have had the children see a little more of the world rather than just a movement from one isolation to another, with even the same required (repressive) dress code.

You state that "all people have the right to think, eat, believe, and live as they see fit" yet you would spend A LIFETIME ensuring your children do not have the freedoms you just spoke of. They have no ability to think on their own nor believe on their own. They are a product of your endless indoctrination, and will be so obsessed by the time they can actually think, they will only think your thoughts.

So don't try to lecture me on personal freedoms when you live your life with the goal of preventing the same within your fold. That's WAY to hypocritical.

And David - yes, they are within their civil rights to treat their followers this way. Morally and ethically wrong, but not illegal.

granny01 - are you really comparing dress style of the Ozarks with FLDS? Did you not see "Deliverance"? Yeah - let's raise our kids like that. Oh well, at least those kids had banjos - while FLDS children can only listen to approved FLDS religious music.

Yup - lots of freedom and lots of choices. (that's sarcasm.)

Several years ago while living in the Peoples Republic of Massachussets I overheard the head of the mass. CPS state that the children of the commonwealth were the responsibility of the commonwealth.......not the parents.

Have we come so far as a society that the State proscribes the religious beliefs of children.

Those children were described as well adjusted by the CPS "expert" in sworn testimony as well as the MHMR persons on site at the fort and coliseium.

One article described the CPS observers of a mothers visit in tears as she watched the interaction between a mother and child during the weekly one hour visit.

CPS must leave the children alone to be raised by their parents. If they grow up and don't like the religion they have the same opportunity to write a book as the other former church members.

Heck.......I'm still upset about all that standing and kneeling from my Catholic upbringing....not to mention the Catholic guilt complex about sex .......but I survived.

realitycheck....You seem to be very knowledgeable on how bad the FLDS are. Talked to some of those poor women who "escaped" from it all, huh? It seems to me that if we all wanted to be just like you and see everything your way, we would just vote you in as king or something. The whole raid was a "Hitler" act. It was preplanned against a people that just don't go about publishing themselves to the world. So what if they are different. That doesn't matter. We came to America, at least I did, because we wanted freedom of religion. If you don't believe it, go back to world history and see if it isn't true. Maybe it doesn't matter to you. Just don't forget that there are teenage girls walking down YOUR street whose PARENTS CONSENTED and ENCOURAGED to go out with some boy and OOPS! now she's pregnant. Oh, but that's probably OK since that is how the majority of Americans live. Why does it seem that so many people base their opinions of a people on "heresay"? I just feel sorry for people that cannot allow all men the same privilege they want to worship as-they-please.

Hey RC I am not FLDS.

I do not promote there beliefs.

I do however promote there right to believe what
they want without goverment intervention.

I would like all children to be raised without
religion as it is a cruch.

I feel that the world has had to many people
die in the name of GOD.

Better to start here on earth and work our way up.

Not work our way down from heaven.

Heaven is a state of Mind, one which I know is
accessable by all people if there were to allow it.

Howver that being said, I also believe in a well armed public to insure the cronnies in DC, or the
state goverments run ramshoud over us small fries,
like the FLDS.

The Children who are raised in the FLDS are much better off than my children. However I will also
expose my children to all kinds of lifestyles not just one or two.

Than being said, hey tone down the rumor mill
it does not suit your intelligence.

Why are they healthy?

For one, they apparently nurse their babies past a year. That is, of course, until CPS kidnapped the babies. It was a crime to force those moms to stop nursing.

Hey, the FLDS moms appear to be getting the last laugh anyway after launching their online fashion business. (Wish it was around a couple of years ago when my daughter was invited to a bat mitzvah and we could find nothing suitable for her to wear -- the buyers for the big Australian stores seem to think little girls are all tarts in training). Read Carolyn Jessopś ¨Escape¨. Seems to me this community is like many other societies we have known -- mostly nice, decent folks with the misfortune to have some very horrible leaders. I live in NSW, Australia. I should know.

wow - can't believe how defensive some of you get. I have my opinion, and you have yours. I've stated mine, and you disagree. Fine. That's the American way.

It's just unclear to me why you all would bother living in the USA if you're going to live like that. Might as well be in Saudia Arabia.

And I totally agree with Di S. Gracefully. Lots of good decent folks and some horrible leaders. Unfortunately, the decent folk become less decent when they follow the rules of bad leaders. (Kind of like us being in Iraq - we're simply following our leader's orders - but still a terrible idea and it makes us less decent, especially in the eyes of the world.)

Gee I missed this forum. Those that defend the Civil Rights of people, and those that want all people who think differant then they do kicked out of Texas and they're feeble reasons for doing so.

I haven't had such a good laugh since they shut this down.

DK

re - fightforfreedom 9:34pm

the only problem is that they look young up to their 30s - and then they start to look old from having so many babies, and the wear and tear of stress from having to compete with all the other wives. By the time they're 45, they look 60.

RE Dragon Knight: Hey DK....they didn't shut this site down. The gosanangelo site was shut down.....and reopened two days ago. There isn't much on the sanangelo site and this one is better anyway.

Nice to have you back.

How do you get decent folks with bad leaders???

we got them by voting for them. not sure how FLDS did it. I think they have more of a hand-me-down prophet thing going on.

Does anyone here think the grand jury will hand down indictments? Does the grand jury make the FLDS nervous and if so why would it?

If it does, I can certainly understand why it would. You all seem to think that it is okay to destroy someone's religion even though the constitution says we have freedom of religion. It does not say that if we all agree with everyone else's religion that we should allow them to live it. If you are not too blind to see, this is a religious fight. Texas is not only trying to destroy families, but an entire religion, (as well as other states). How would you like to say one word to some jury that is so biased that your chances of coming out of there innocent are 0 because of the hate of people, why would you consider not being nervous?

Re Vic: The grand jury has the bishops list which outlines the under age marraiges. If just one of the subjects confirms the accuracy or authenticity of that list the underage marraige and or bigamy charges might stick.

Hildebrands new law broadened the definition of bigamy so it would be easier to get an inditement.

Jeffs faced the same general accusations and the lack of witnesses made the states case difficult until Walls came forward. Even Walls waivered several times befor she finally took the stand. The promise of a million from the trust kinda helped persuade her eventually.

If the flds isn't worried they should be, besides why do you think Merril and several other men aren't around.

re - Satoia

This has nothing to do with religion, other than a group of adults using religious pretenses to control those in their care.

What do the clothes the FLDS wear have to do with religion? What does hiding from the world have to do with worshiping God? Absolutely nothing. It's just a bunch of rules set up by men a long time ago so they could control their populace, and now they are followed as if it is the word of God.

Of course, the same can be said for most "religions", but the FLDS take it so far that it has become abusive and repressive to their followers.

Thanks Z, nice to be back.

DK