The State of Texas and the Hero Judge did the Right Thing. That’s all there is to it. If you disagree your wrong, or perhaps a pervert supporter or a closet wanna bees. If so stay deep in your hole. When it is all sorted out and the proper people are charged, convicted and jailed, Texas will be seen as having done a good job, considering what they had to deal with....If you act as one group then when some break the law, the whole group goes down. You do not have to Rob the Bank, you just have to be in the Vehicle.

"'It shows what a little speaking out can do,' said Rod Parker, a Salt Lake City attorney who is acting as a spokesman for the FLDS people."

It also shows that, no matter what the big cheeses say, lots of Mormons still support polygamy.

But hey, what can i say? The recent Pew poll indicates that over 60% of my fellow Baptists believe that many different religions can be right about how to get to heaven. So we have some educating to do, too. My guess is that Mormons won't have any better luck setting their people straight than we will.

Not what people think
The FLDS had their rights violated by the State of Texas
The Children are not Criminals
Just the same they were the same as arrested
This is UnConstitutional and Civil Rights Violations by the State of Texas
14 million has been wasted and more will be paid through law suits
I hope this tells Utah something
What did it cost Utah the last time?

How does that break down among LDS / non -LDS?

Public opinion has been called a fickle thing but in many cases it turns on information and not emotion, that is why media objectivity is so crutial in a time of fewer and fewer sources of commercial news.

I began reading and sorting thru information about the raid using the SanAngelo paper in mid April and noticed that many bloggers were ahead of the curve in predicting events and seeing thru accusations. Collectively normal guys predicted the lies using information gleaned from news sources and independent research. Many people even even deduced the Supreme court rulings.

Lincolns' old saying about not fooling all of the people all of the time holds true if the information is accurate and unbiased.

Thank you Desert News for keeping up with the events surrounding the raid and not simply reporting convient uncontroversial decisions...and thank you for daily relatively detailed updates.

Of course the show isn't over yet but I am sure that some of the guilty will be punished but more importantly, unbiased reporting has helped many innocent persons fight wild accusations and uncover abuses of religious as well as government power.

One criticism though....200 words just aren't enough to say thank you.

I would encourage the FLDS, and all those that identify themselves as polygamous,to follow, and obey the law of the land. At the same time they can
petition the government to change the law.
One thing that they must stop, and that is any and all relationships involving any persons under the age of 21. Clearly that would be at the least, the
honorable thing to do.

It seems that Malonis will testify at the grand jury hearing today. Teresa Jeffs will of course have the opportunity to call her lawyer a liar.

Mr. Edwards, Teresas other lawyer, sees a problem with the Malonis testimony. Edwards stated "she can't wear two hats".

Duhhhhhhhh. I guess lawyer client relationships have a different meaning in Texas.

To "Awesomeron, I have been lurking on various boards since Texas raided the FLDS and kidnapped the mothers and children. I don't think I had heard of FLDS until then. Please do not tell me I am wrong to believe these people's rights have been violated and still being violated.
I am definatly not a pervert, nor a "wanna be."
Your hero judge should be fired as should everyone associated with CPS who mistreated these people.
I am outraged.

I do disagree with what Texas did... BUT I DO NOT IN ANY WAY AGREE TO FLDS POLYGAMY, NOR THE ABUSE ASSOCIATED WITH THE FLDS CULT! They are immoral law breakers. Wrong is wrong!

When all is said and done, I just hope that the States of Texas, Utah and Arizona can do something to help these women and children (as well as some men) who are victims of the FLDS leadership. Unfortunately, sometimes the laws have an unintended result--that is to protect criminals at the expense of victims. How Rod Parker can sleep at night is beyond anything I can imagine.

From "A Man for All Seasons," by Robert Bolt

MORE: Yes, what would you do? Cut a road through the law to get after the Devil?

ROPER: Yes. I'd cut down every law in England to do that.

MORE: And when the last law was down, and the Devil turned on you where would you hide, Roper, the laws all being flat? This country is planted with laws from coast to coast, Man's laws, not God's, and if you cut them down---and you're just the man to do it---do you really think you could stand upright in the wind that would blow then? Yes. I give the Devil benefit of law for my own safety's sake.

I think people believe a raid was justified, it was just the way it was carried out. I knew something seemed out of place when I saw images of women and children (who are the victims of polygamy) being rounded up and loaded on to buses that had (Baptist Church) written on the sides. The law enforcement in Texas just went whole hog and I assume it was pent up hatred for a polygamist compound being built right smack in the Bible Belt.

RE: awesomeron and JND

I think some people are missing the big picture. This story is not about Baptists, Mormons, or FLDS (I don’t understand why you keep tying different churches together). This story is about basic constitutional rights.

Religious beliefs have nothing to do with this story. You can not legislate beliefs and you can not prosecute an entire group based on a hoax. It is obvious that you have contempt for any religion which does not conform to society’s view of God. They can believe that frogs fly for all I care.

By the way, less then half of the people living in Utah are Mormon and polls outside of Utah have shown similar views regarding the raid on FLDS.

Let’s stay focused on constitutional rights. The end does not justify the means.

I think the WAY the Texas authorities went about correcting the abuse in the FLDS compound needed much improvement and re-thinking. Clearly, abuse goes on there. Apart from that, pologamy is against the law and yet states like Utah, Texas and Arizona wink at this, and do nothing. If the laws were properly enforced, these cults that in no way have anything to do with the true Mormon church would eventually cease to exist. Far too many people think these groups and the LDS Church are one and the same.

If they decriminalize polygamy they are opening up a strange door. One man can have a "marriage" with 2, 5, or 10 women? Because of equity under the law, a women can have a "marriage" with 10 men. So can 5 men have one "marriage" with 5 women? Can 20 women have one "marriage" with 4 men. Or 10 men with 6 women? All would be possible with legal polygamy.

They opened the door by allowing marriage between a man and a man in some states. I don't think laws against polygamy will stand if tested in court.

However, laws against child abuse will stand. So if they can prove a man raped a child, or even had consensual sex - that man should go to jail. So should any "prophet" who set it up.

But - what Texas did was unconstitutional. So Texas will regret that. I fully despise everything that the FLDS were doing, BUT, I think Judge Walther was acting on emotion not her braincells when she allowed the children to be seized the way they were.

The FLDS are a hoax. This was bound to happen one way or another. The Texans just went about it wrong. Using god to rape woman is not a good choice and needs to be dealt with. However, this is not the fault of the women nor that of the children. It is the fault however of their corrupt leaders.

Dear Hum?

You wrote: “I think some people are missing the big picture.”

You may think this, and you may be right. It doesn’t change my point => no matter what the big cheeses say, lots of Mormons still support polygamy.

Regardless of what the story is about, my point is a correct response to Parker’s statement.

And sure you can legislate beliefs. That doesn’t mean people will actually believe them.

I agree with Mary and "awesomeron" is a bleeding-heart CPS worker with an axe to grind. People (not just Utahns) are changing thier minds about the raid because, FINALLY, the facts are coming out. We are hearing more from other than CPS and the Truth is coming out. I once believed that it was impossible to fool a majority of Americans but, then, they re-elected Clinton to a second term as President. I lost faith in Americans after that. Then, I watched as the FLDS were castigated in the press and the Kangaroo Court of public opinion and I had to shake my head again at the gullibility of the American people. The only ones able to restore that faith have been those on here that support and defend the Constitution (not to mention that wonderful Appellate Court judge and Texas Supreme Court). In the Second Century AD, a very wise and loved Apostle wrote, "Truth is like fire; it either heals or it destroys, but it never, NEVER, leaves what it touches UNCHANGED". The Truth is coming folks. Some will be vindicated by it and others will be hurt by it but ALL will be better for it.

Dear JDM:

I find it interesting how many people outside my religion tell me what I believe. I do not know of anyone who supports polygamy (including me), but while we are on the subject; the Bible supports having multiple wives. A long time ago the origin of Christianity supported polygamy. Does that mean you and I do?

BTW. Comparing LDS to FLDS is like comparing Baptists to Catholics. I find it interesting how many people have used this forum to take shots at religions not affiliated with FLDS. Set aside your bigotry and focus on helping the real victims of this tragedy; the woman and kids and do it in a way which does not circumvent the Constitution.

now that's funny that the only newspaper with a massive FLDS following would do a poll to see if people support the FLDS. Try doing it with the NY Times or WSJ - or even the LA Times. You'll find the exact opposite results, or worse.

Most around the country didn't like the children being taken, but since the FLDS is incapable of raising children in an opportunity-filled environment, the popular opinion is that they shouldn't have the kids. It's not fair to the children to be put through this lifestyle. It removes all their rights to a future of their own choosing. A basic God-given right, and the basis of America's prosperity. The children are the future, and these kids have none. Severly goes against the grain for most Americans.

Realitycheck,
I asked you before on a different thread to please enlighten me as to what wonderful "opportunities" I'm missing out on by being an FLDS member. I need to know what I've been missing out on.

Also,
I don't know of a single FLDS person who responded to this poll. I never knew there was any poll until this news article. Would you like to point out which posters you think are FLDS members (besides me?)

RealityCheck,

I wouldn't call the DeseretNews a paper with a massive FLDS following. The DeseretNews is run by the publishing arm of the _LDS_ church. The LDS _HAAAATES_ the FLDS, passionately. The primary reason the DeseretNews is so involved with this is that the LDS would like nothing more then the FLDS to be taken down. Check the history of the LDS (and DeseretNews) and the FLDS.

As for the FLDS being incapable of raising their kids in an opportunity-filled environment. IF that is true, who cares, that isn't reason to remove a kid from their parents; if it was a LOT of parents would lose their kids. And who gets to be the grand decider of what "opportunity-filled" is, and what levels must be acheived?

Is that all this case has anymore? Has everything else been striped away?

Dear Hum?

There may be lots of folks outside your religion telling you what you believe. I wouldn’t have any idea about that, and I didn’t try to tell you what you believe (although in fairness, you didn’t say I did).

“The origin of Christianity supported polygamy.” Hmm. Well, I guess that depends on how you define origin. To me, Christianity originated with Jesus Christ. I am not aware of any place it’s recorded that He supported polygamy. Did I miss it?

To answer your question about the support of polygamy, you wrote that you don’t support polygamy, so I assume you are telling the truth—that you don’t support it. I can answer for myself; I don’t support it either, although I know people (none of them LDS) who do.

Neither did I compare LDS to FLDS, although many have (and again, in fairness, you didn’t say that I had).

You did ask me to set aside my bigotry. I’d love to, but first you’ll have to explain to me how and why I’m bigoted.

Thanks for the suggestion on focus. You’ll be happy to know I’ve personally been involved in helping some FLDS folk here in West Texas.

this is America - the land of opportunity. Why must you raise your children in an environment that prevents them from taking advantage of being an American?

Thousands of Afgan people (especially women and children) would love to come here and have a chance at a free life. So why don't you FLDS just trade places with them? They will be happy and take advantage of the opportunity, and nothing will have really changed for you since you already live like the Afgans.

Just a thought....

Texas could care less about what utah thinks. This is the state that has allowed this FLDS illegal behavior to continue for years. At least Texas did something to protect these children.

Realitycheck: Your ideas scare me. I don't think the Government or American people as a whole are in a place to judge who is capable of raising children. Your thoughts lean toward parental licensing and what should be taught and what is restrictive. Who is qualified to judge what an appropriate lifestyle is? You? Who will make up the rules for everyone? Will it end up like our tax code with volumes of laws that would make us all guilty. How we treat others will come back to haunt ourselves. Part of the God given rights is to raise children according to our (parents) choice and we are accountable to our maker. Uphold the laws of the Constitution!

Uhm, "whatever", what exactly WAS that that Texas did to PROTECT the children? WHy didn't those thankless children thank all you Texans when you kicked in the doors to their rooms (we saw pictures of the damage to the doorsills), when you lied to the children and mothers about where they were going, when you put them in a stadium and separated them from their mothers, when you TORE those screaming children from their mothers' arms, when you separated them from their brothers and sisters and put them in strange homes cut off from contact with their mothers, when you denied them their very basic rights as humans to the care, nurturing, maintenance and custody by their parents, when you subjected them to intrusive examinations and interrogations and threatened them with not seeing their parents again if they did not tell you what you wanted to hear? Why weren't those little toddlers appreciative of what you did for them? Why didn't those 4-12 yr old children run back to you and say "Thank YOU, Thank You for taking such good care of me"? Maybe it was their bad upbringing that made them unappreciative. Or, maybe it was yours.

RealityCheck,

What makes America great and people want to come here is that we DON'T tell people they must act or believe a certain way (within the limits of legality).

If a family DOESN'T want to avail them self of an "opportunity" (or they don't think its an opportunity, we're not going to force them. Well, at least we haven't. You want to not watch TV, not go to the movies, not have a phone, pray every 4 hours, no one is going to stop you. You're also free to raise your kids that way. THAT is America, and that's why people want to come here.

Once you stop that, people (including the Afgans) aren't going to want to be here.

Uhm, "realitycheck" at least spell Afghan right. I have been over to Afghanistan 3 times in the past 4 years and I LOVE the place. GREAT people, GREAT heritage, LOTS of work to be done to improve their way of living after the Russians destroyed the place. You know ABSOLUTELY NOTHING (don't you get tired of hearing people say that to you?) about Afghanistan or how they live. Next time, put more thought into your comment. We always love hearing from you. Darn, there goes my credibility.

Grandpa Phil -

the best you could do was check my spelling? thats sad.

Yes - the AFGHAN are a good and proud people. They also live under the heavy fist of extremely strict religious doctrine and have a severe lack of opportunity. Just like the FLDS. What don't you get? If you're an Afghan woman, you better not get raped, because you need 3 witnesses and they all have to be men. If you don't have them, you are guilty of adultery and will be SEVERLY punished. Yeah - real great place. Obviously you have no understanding of freedom (you get tired of people telling you that?)

Next time think before you speak - you're showing your ignorance.

David -

it's fine if parents don't want to take advantage of the opportunities in this country. But preventing your children from doing so is immoral, unethical, and really really bad parenting - and I use the term "parenting" very loosely when applying it to FLDS parents, since their religion means a lot more to them than their children do (just like in Afghanistan.)

Dear JND:

In fairness – you said, "lots of Mormons still support polygamy"; which is wrong. By making this statement you incorrectly inferred my beliefs and made a connection between LDS and FLDS. There is not a connection between the two religious groups. So, in fairness, stop dodging the real issue.

The rights of FLDS people have been violated and people like you continue to demonize the FLDS people and incorrectly tie other groups to the FLDS. They have rights just like you and I do.

Spend a little time looking at your own religious views. You will see your beliefs are as strange as other's.

When families from other polygamous groups are shown on television, they appear nearly normal. Their behavior doesn't look felonious. And no one would bother prosecuting them.

Then comes the FLDS with its tight security, its forced marriages, its reassignment of wives, its child marriages, its severe control over its members, its abandonment of so many boys (while retaining the girls), its manipulation of the legal system and its lack of equal rights between the sexes and the majority of Americans are upset, but this majority has no idea how to deal with the FLDS because it has been living in an information vacuum, it has never dealt with such a unique group and it is unprepared for legal challenges to its clumsy moves. It makes mistakes. So, public support drops a bit.

Now comes the criminal part of the case and the public is left on the outside until the indictments come down. Once that occurs, public opinion will shift back in favor of Texas.

I think the public is willing to live with one lifestyle choice it views as awful such as polygamy or forced marriage or extreme control, but it has problem accepting so many awful aspects.

I wonder how many who are so adamant about demanding that consenting adults be punished for practicing polygamy take the same position on consenting adults engaged in gay relationships, extra-marital relationships, or even unmarried relationships.

I can certainly respect a consistent position that says government has an interest in "private" relationships and any sexual relationship other than between man and wife ought to be punished. I have little tolerance for those who get worked up over consenting adults engaged in plural marriage but who turn around and support gay marriage or who would cringe at the idea of government actually jailing adulterers or fornicators.

Of course, ANY criminal conduct victimizing children is a completely different issue. And those responsible for victimizing children should be punished.

But while I have no desire to see the state start issuing either plural nor gay marriage certificates, neither do I care to see the government prying into the bedrooms of consenting adults.

Lots of posting in the last couple of months about this issue.

The LDS consider the FLDS to be apostates. The FLDS consider the LDS to be so. (Sort of like early Lutherans or Church of England and Catholics--which led to actual wars!) But they do have the shared roots of early Mormon settlement of Utah. And many LDS, who don't believe in or support polygamy, do have ancestors who were persecuted, for being members of a "different" religion and later for practicing polygamy and about whom wild and unfounded charges were made, inflaming the state of Missouri into issuing an order authorizing their extermination or forced expulsion from the state. (Texas today?) The LDS church also reveres the Constitution of the United States as being an inspired document.

SOOOO, yes, you do have some people who can disagree with the FLDS doctrinally, who strongly disagree with child marriages, sexual abuse, abandoning children, and force and intimidation in any religion at all, and yet do have some sympathy with a whole group of people being treated in an unconstitutional way--and with unsubstantiated charges made and force used against them.

Lawful actions, yes, but witch hunting, no.

To the poster who thinks they are wonderful,

I think your insistence that you are right and anyone who disagrees with you is wrong if not a criminal is too simplistic an appraoch to this case.

I guess maybe you figure that the Texas Supreme Court is full of supporters of perverts?

I also object to your guilt by association theories. These are the same types of ideas that are used to attack Muslims among others. People are not guilty of a crime just because they live on the same ranch as others.

I'm sorry "Gal50" but did you actually write "manipulation of the legal system" by FLDS? Are you for REAL? Since when is appealing a criminally inept ruling by a biased lower court a manipulation of the legal system? The REASON we have Appellate courts is because, sometimes, lower courts make mistakes (gross understatement in this case). It was Texas that appealed that decision and rightfully got their hand slapped. The FLDS were within their rights to demand a relook at Judge Walthers decisions. The two courts acted in the best interests of everyone (except CPS) by holding Texas officials accountable for their injustices.

Frankly, even if there are some criminal indictments, public opinion is never going to shift back in favor of Texas. No amount of wrongful actions on the part of anyone else is EVER going to make up for the abuses they dealt to those innocent children. The deprivation of Constitutional and familial rights was a travesty of justice that no future convictions can overshadow or erase. We believe that justice has already been served in that government abuse of authority has been reigned in. We now wait to see if criminal indictments against CPS officials will follow.

R: Reality Check: "...but since the FLDS is incapable of raising children in an opportunity-filled environment, the popular opinion is that they shouldn't have the kids. It's not fair to the children to be put through this lifestyle...ETC!!"

Please check you're reality!! Look at the smile, spontaneous behavior of Teresa Jeffs in the tree, etc. could you find even 1/3 of the population of children in this great nation look so fulfilled??
I myself have over half of my brothers and sisters that have a college degree!!! I am taking college classes right now!! Does that sound like we have no "environment-filled-oportunities!!??" Why not go get an education for yourself in CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHTS OF AMERICAN CITIZENS and then you would see that these people RIGHTS WERE VIOLATED!! THEY DESERVE MORE THAN YOUR UNKIND RIDICULING COMMENTS--THEY NEED YOUR HELP TO GET THEIR LIVES BACK TOGETHER AND TO GET THE SMILES BACK ON THE CHILDREN'S FACES THAT THE CPS, BARBARA WALTHERS, ANGIE VOSS, GOV.PERRY, AND THE STATE OF TEXAS WIPED OFF!!!

WAY TO GO "Think!!". I understand it is necessary to yell when it comes to realitycheck because he/she just doesn't seen to get it otherwise. He is the only one obtuse enough to claim "the popular opinion is that they should not have their kids". Other than the few diehard CPS supporters on these blogs, I know of no one who holds that opinion. Again, wishful thinking on the part of realitycheck only. Please do not let the voices of the unsilent minority lead you to believe that Americans in general are not behind you in your quest for justise.

hahaha - too funny, Think!!!.

You can yell, rant, and rave, and it won't change the facts. Was Texas right to pull all those kids out? Certainly not. Never said they were.

Are the kids being trained to submit to the whims of their handlers (the leaders) in FLDS? Most definately.

You do realize there is more to life than religion, correct? So is it fair to the children to have their entire lives pre-determined by their parents based on a hand-me-down doctrine? Should these kids have no opportunity other than that chosen by their parents (unless they "escape")?

Kids try to escape from abusive parents and bad households. And the only ones that ever leave the FLDS have to escape. What does that tell you? Anything? How's your logic working these days?

Why is it necessary to escape from your parents, rather than just progress down the chain of life as you see fit? Kind of makes you wonder, doesn't it? You think it's right that if a young adult doesn't want to live by FLDS rules, they should be disowned by their parents? What kind of parenting is that? (Pls don't reply with drug dealers or hookers.)

You said, "When families from other polygamous groups are shown on television, they appear nearly normal. Their behavior doesn't look felonious."

Wow. What looks felonious? Is it the long skirts? Is it their hair? How about the men's overalls?

We're back full circle to the "They look weird, let's hang 'em" attitude.

I salute you.

You said, "the only ones that ever leave the FLDS have to escape."

Hahaha.

The FLDS have had many followers leave. The whole escape thing is contrived by the Oprah book club crew.

My prediction: they'll have best long term followers in this group that was stolen by Texas.

where are all these folowers that have left that didn't escape? No one has ever seen them. We've only seen those that escape and those that are "banished to repent from afar".

Is that who you mean? The banished ones? Yes - they didn't escape - they were thrown out. And they miss their families.

Can they come back now? Have you forgiven them? Or are they destined to be outcasts forever, in the name of a religion that has no tolorance?

If many followers have left, where are they, and why hasn't anyone ever seen one? Is this kind of like the "become god of a planet" thing? Where no one has ever seen it but "just trust me"?

realitycheck, if you want to lose absolutely any and ALL credibility you have in these discussions, feel free to continue along the "bashing LDS/FLDS doctrine line". Do not mock what you do not understand. Disagree all you like but mocking someone else's religious doctrine will just make you look bad, not them.

Just because someone did not fire flares and wave a big banner so everyone would notice them walking out on their own does not mean no one has ever left of their own free will. The fact that no one noticed gives credence to the statement that they left without fanfare or disharmony.

Where are the followers that left and didn't escape?????????

Carolyn Jessop......called her brother and drove off with her kids.

Flora Jessop ........left the church.....went back......then left again to begin career as a topless dancer.

Elisa Walls......got in the truck with her boyfriend and left.

didn't know I was bashing anyone, Phil, especially LDS. I was kidding about FLDS with the "god of a planet" thing - they don't really believe that, do they? You don't believe that you can be god of your own planet if you have multiple wives, do you?

I wasn't bashing, I was kidding. Of course, if you do believe the planet thing, then I have some land in Florida......

I think you were kidding kind of like Hugabee was when he asked the reporter "off the record", "don't they believe that Jesus and Satan are brothers"? after saying he knew almost nothing about the LDS Church. Just be careful. Perception is reality. Your passion has earned you a degree of credibility; don't blow it.

don't know about the Huckabee thing, but I thought there was some biblical passages that refered to satan as a cast-off angel or something or other. Don't remember that much of bible school, to be honest. I do recall it being a difficult read. I liked Aesops fables and the Arabian tales better.

Anyway, you know as well as I that presidential candidates (and presidents) get confused regularly.....

I didn't change my mind. Nobody polled me.

Yes, RC, especially after election.