Is Texas worried that no other state would try to annihalate a religious group like they have, without law or order? Are they concerned the people will run to someone who is less cruel than they are,and will abide by the Constitution as they have not done?

Come on America, stand up for freedom! Look what is happening. They are removing prayer from schools, the Ten Commandments from the courthouses, "In God We Trust" from our money system. Where does it end? Soon they will be after every religion that professes to believe in Christ. Our nation is becoming Anti-Christ. Soon there will be no religious freedom in America. The Constitution gone and lost forever!

Dear Con Cerned American,

I totally agree with you that our nation is becoming Anti-Christ. After all, what could be more Anti-Christ than a so-called prophet having sex with 12-year old girls?

Have a nice day!

Hoping a positive ruling will come out of the court today and the children will be returned to the parents.

Why not remove all children in LDS families, where mother is on prozac in Utah? I am also sure the underage girls who are LDS are having children way under age as witnessed by LDS social services ads on tv offering them alternatives to abortion. why is it on these boards one cannot truly express one's opinion, but must have the Deseret News monitor free speech, one of our basic rights??? How hypocritical of LDS to judge the FLDS, they are Mormon just like US AND I SUPPORT THEM. I pray each flds child is returned, if any abuse occured, prosecute yes, but LDS is only concerned that the flds is not confused with flds for our proselytizing efforts...how pathetic and heartless. From the beginning those Texas folk were quoted in El Dorado as saying: "That would make a mighty fine courthouse, " i say sue the State of Texas and Cps extend the Ranch and vote every last one of them OUT. Idiots who think the flds would leave their beautiful temple. I wonder how many LDS will leave the church due to our lack of love and doing nothing to help flds?

A two day hearing within a few days of initial seizure can't possible cover 450 children especially when the parents refuse to tell the court the relationships between the children and adults and where they live. Documents such as birth certificates were not available. Trust could not be established due to lying and this made it difficult to tell which information was believable.

Just a couple days ago, we saw another example of the difficulty of obtaining necessary information when Louisa Bradshaw Jessop stated under oath that basically she didn't know who she lived with.

While it is true that law enforcement typically goes after the men, the women have made their daughters available for abuse. For example, Elissa Wall's mother does nothing to prevent the marriage and probably helped with wedding preparations. The mothers also interfered with the CPS investigation. So, it became necessary for the women to be parted from their children.

It's understandable that the men were willing to leave the ranch because they left the state. The women didn't offer to leave the ranch. Plus, CPS did not have the ability to staff a ranch including complex utility systems within days.

It still not matter what the court says the final word will come from the Federal courts on what is due process for If the FLDS loses it will go to the Feds.where the judges are not elected but will go by the constitution so the Texas court is looking for a way to satisfy the Federal court.If it is appealed no child can be adoptive out so Texas will be paying for the next few years so let the children go go after the men who broke the law the children have broken no laws.

Returning the children to their mothers does not necessarily give custody back to the parents nor does it stop any ongoing investigation. The court can order the parents not to remove the children and even if they flee, they can be found and returned.
I mean, seriously, how easy is it to spot someone in a long sleeved pastel dress with black stockings and up-do hair styles? It isn't like they can hide very well now is it?

Constitution?? The Constitution is what says you can't have prayer in PUBLIC schools. The ten commandments are old testament Jewish property laws are you Jewish?
Are you Christian? Then you don't even have the old testament. It's new Testament for your group or do you pick and choose whatever fits the situation.

There IS Religious Freedom, There isn't Freedom to tell others they MUST be like you or else.

In this Texas case, someone believed the lies and stories about those "wicked" folks that are NOT like us.

I see comments on here that are abusive, offensive, off topic, misrepesentative ALL THE TIME. why did you not put my post on? I was just voicing my opinion..You utah mormons are too much. when LDS come to our ward from utah or Idaho, it turns my stomach with the attitude you people have, we lowly converts are not good enough, for you were born into the church....i want to vomit with that self righteousness....why not live our religion and allow our fundamentsl rights of free speech on this board???? You allow constant name calling et al on these boards, but God forbid if one is to criticize your monitoring or anything against the LDS church...I am a faithful member and will always be, but have my own MIND, THANK YOU...sue texas and cps dogs and expand the ranch bringing in thousands of voters and take over El Dorado, how abou that? Sounds simple to me. All LDS were for Romney, whose wife gave to planned parrenthood, (abortion) and he is a good mormon? Pleeeeese. May the Lord Bless the FLDS, really, LDS and DN believes all the lies against them? what about our own history?

Any public high school in America might have a pregnant 15-year-old, not just in school but maybe playing flute in the band. Does acceptance of that fact mean that the other hundreds of kids in the same school are at imminent risk of harm? Heck no!

Please Texas Supreme Court make it stop! Give the kids back and let them all just go home!!

To Con Cerned American:

If the FLDS wasn't forcing underage girls into marriages with older men for their sexual pleasure they wouldn't have anything to worry about.

And you can blame the ACLU for the rest of your rant not the Texas CPS.

JDN: "our nation becoming anti-christ"

----------------------

Our nation is neutral towards religion. Whether your christ or their prophet or someone else's guru. We are a nation which tolerates religion. First and foremost we are a secular nation. A nation of laws. Not a theocracy.

To Lilathe: It is pretty easy for them to hide in parts of Utah and Arizona, as well as Canada and Mexico, where they can blend in with other sect members. If they are in Utah or AZ, TX may be able to get them back. In general, Mexico and Canada make it very difficult to get anyone extradited. Canada is currently harboring the head of a weird Jewish child abusing sect (physical violence "to save their souls", not sex) in Israel and blocking efforts to get him back. I assure you that you could pick him and his burqa wearing wife out of the crowd, but that doesn't help bring him to justice and it doesn't stop the abuse of the children by his followers either--only taking the kids out of the home does that. Sadly, a lot of horrible things are done to children in God's name. The problem is that it is hard to protect the children while respecting religions in which child abuse seems endemic to the belief system, whether they are FLDS, Jehovah's WItnesses or a cultic Ultra Orthodox Jewish sect.

Thank You DN...for putting my posts on. We are all up in arms about these beautiful children. THANK YOU. i WAS SEPERATED FROM MY PARENTS AS A CHILD, SO I DO TAKE THIS SEPERATION OF THE CHILDREN VERY SERIOUSLY. The Lord Bless for your goodness and kindness to let all opinions be heard. THANKS AGAIN

Expanding on Ray's comment. What have they found 5 girls who were pregnant as teens? As a percentage that is much much lower than the percentage of African American and Latino girls who become pregnant as teens. I wonder if Texas is planning to take all of there children.

This is a total miscarriage of justice. Their
constitutional rights and due process rights were
violated. CPS admitted that they were using the
FLDS belief system as their basis for removal.
They are using the usual cadre of false allegations,
innuendo and assumptions. I know many Americans
dislike their lifestyle, but the issue of violating
these families rights is one for every person to
notice. Generally wealthy, politically connected parents, r friends of CPS will never have to worry abou the Nazi-like,miltaristic attack and removal of their children, only the poor, disenfranchised or religously obscure need to be alarmed at the potential for such a traumatic intrusion by the
state, any state.

God Bless Texas!! You can't find them with there prairie dresses in a community of 10,000. Don't let the kids go back. The FLDS worship Warren Jeffs they feel whats good for the prophet is good for us. I can only imagine the hurt those little girls went thru on there wedding night. When they had relations with Warren. Alot of you on here think its a ok.

You people are blinded. I am a Christian and I can see the reality of this situation. This is about their religion because they claim to follow the True Jesus Christ. If you think the antichrist isn't coming soon than you are wrong. This type of treatment of religion is the antichrist. If you don't want to face it because you haven't suddenly disappeared yet well you better get ready because things are getting worse here and your faith will be tested just like all others who follow our Savior. Your religion will conform to what antichrist or you will be stamped out. Better strengthen your faith and stop judging those families,only God knows their hearts not you or I. I pray that we can take our test as well as they are!

Interested persons may wish to read the "Story Graphic" attached to this article. It is a "Texas Supreme Court Brief" prepared by attorneys Amy Warr and Robert Doggett. The brief clearly presents reasons why the Texas CPS broke state law and why the children must be returned. This brief is comprehensive and excellent.

Yo Christinaq, put down the story book!

The story book was written to make a tidy profit, and it looks like it's working.

The writer is an ex-drug addict who has never been to the YFZ Ranch, and the only pregnant 14-year-old found, turns out to have been a made-up lie by DFS. No pregnant 14-year-olds were found in real life, just in the story.

Put down the story book, it's a story it's not evidence!!!

Enforce the laws we have. Through the men in jail who broke the underage marriage laws, send the police in to investigate any domestic disputes (fake 911 call????!) Arrest the polygamists for polygamy.

This would of not happened if they just enforced the existing laws. But seeing that it did, I am all for due process and it's not right to take these kids away from their mothers just based on a false tip and speculation. That's just unnatural and unjust.

And while I detest the practices of the FLDS, there is a constitution in this country the says something like 'no law respecting religion or prohibitting the free exercise thereof'. Religious peole everywhere need to be careful that we don't condone CPS practices because they'll use the same methods to take your kids when they don't like what you teach them or the way you raise them. There is already an international movement that suggests teaching your children religion is 'abusive'

Think long and hard on this one.. there is more to this than meets the eye...

Let the kids return home! Warren is in jail, the CPS is on the verge of being punished for their abuse towards the children, and the FLDS have demonstrated their gentle and industrious nature, not to mention their love towards their children. I'll bet that they will do their best to obey Texas laws in the future, and they can certainly be monitored by Texas authorities to ensure their compliance.

The bottom line is that there is an as yet unproven possibility that a few kids were abused on the ranch, yet there are literally hundreds of kids that are presently being abused by having been ripped from loving family members.

They are now threatened with a pervasive CPS belief system that guarantees that many of them will be subject to teenage unmarried pregnancies, drug use, and a life on the streets. Just look at the statistics on the failures of the Texas foster care system.

Texas has much to gain by confiscating the YFZ ranch. At first I thought this situation was all about child abuse. I know now that money and greed are an important part of the reasoning behind the raid.

I think [Con Cerned American] was concerned about protections written into the constuttion being diminished by this raid... not sex with 12 year-olds.

Not all individuals were involved in underage-sex. CPS's presumtion that all resident's of the Ranch were guilty of abuse or would someday become involved in abuse, was the problem. That's not the way our legal system works.

I think it's clear now that Texas CPS ignored some people's constitutional rights in this case (the courts now agree on this). That some people continue to applaud Texas's trampling of constitutional rights is reason for concern.

PS/ I find it interesting that so many people feel the need to exagerate to make their point. It started out "Underage girls marrying older men", then "I read an article about a 16 year old marrying a 19 year-old", next thing you know we see comments like "14 year-olds marrying 50 year-olds", now JND stretches it to 12 year-olds, and I've heard many comments about 60 year-old men (though I've never seen anything to support that rumor).

This is how bogus rumors get started. One person exagerates the truth and before you know it people believe and even stretching that!

Continuation from my previous comment:

QUESTION

WHY SHOULD THE FLDS CHILDREN SHOULD BE SENT BACK HOME?

(X) Because, TEXAS CPS PROBABLE CAUSE IS A SLIPPERY-SLOPE CAUSE, A FALLACY.

(X) Because TEXAS CPS belief is a slippery-slope argument, a fallacy.

(X) Because Texas CPS "a priory probability is zero," or a fallacy; This case is both: (a) not about polygamy slippery slope and (b) about polygamy slippery slope argument, a fallacy.

* DISCLAIMER: Continuation of my literary work/efforts...fact/fiction...

quasi-fact/quasi-fiction...draft...outline...etc.

Authorship/Moral Rights: Debater or FALLACY HUNTER

SIGNED: RECKIPS

=

Stop there? All the reasons given for Texas' action against the FLDS can be made for any number of religions. I'm sure abuse exists in the Baptist, Catholic, Islamic etc communities. And I'm sure the various states where these denominations reside can benefit from the comfiscation and resale or use of their children and properity. I'm thankful that Texas has shown us the way. There's plenty of profit for all here.

Uhm, JND, please site the source of your accusation that jeffs ever had sex with a 12 yr old girl. The legal authorities can then use that seemingly lost bit of information to make a case against him. As of yet, he stands convicted only of abetting in the rape of a 14 yr old but encouraging her to marry a 19 yr old cousin. Then, when the two had sex, he became an accomplice to rape. You seem to have a far better source of information if you have KNOWLEDGE of him actually having sex with a 12 yr old. Oh, kissing isn't sex, no matter how offensive we all found it. If kissing was sex the jails would be overflowing. If, however, your accusation was garnered from sensationalized media hype or someone else's wild accusation, please keep your accusations to yourself and stick to the facts. You are not helping anyone by throwing such comments into the innuendo hopper. Both your ignorance and your bigotry are showing and neither looks good on you.

They are right, religious freedom and civil rights are a thing of the past. FLDS today and someone else tomorrow. Christ is not wanted in the USA and that is clear.. This is only the beginning and other groups will follow..
Texas is ignoring the lawful process and it just is a question of who they decide to pick on after this.
They have no plans of giving the children back and that is obvious..
Sorry, but I for one have lost faith in the USA.

Thanks Teacher, Well said. Refreshing to hear a clear and thoughtfully presented argument. Your comments were "right on".

Uhm, "SLIPPERY SLOPE" AKA: RICKIPS, your meds are wearing off. Push yourself slowly AWAY FROM THE KEYBOARD and take them now. We would all appreciate it and we could then get back to the subject at hand.

Too "JND | 9:41 a.m." | 12:37 p.m. May 29, 2008

Can you please tell me why Dan Barlow has children 4-13 years old with one of his wives and he is currently 76 years old. He was a father of 3 children during the "Short Creek" incident. He has been making babies for nearly 60 years. How many children does he have?

How old is his "wife" that gave birth to the ones currently in Texas State custody?

Changes in his home life happened in 2004 when sect leader Warren Jeffs excommunicated Barlow, his son and 18 others. He has been "repenting from afar" since 2004 and only recently saw his children because of the courts.

The Supreme Court is making one of two decisions:

1. Continue the law suit to take the children away permanently from the parents with the children in parents custody,or,

2. Continue the law suit to take the children away permanently from the parents with the children in CPS custody.

3. Either way the lawsuit continues, the children and mothers must remain in Texas, and the DNA results will come back.

The total, long term, well being will be considered in determining permanent custody NOT JUST IMMEDIATE PHYSICAL well being.

Parents who attempt to flee the state or the country in defiance of at court order which is certain to be issued before they get the children back will become fugitives with the U.S. government tracking them down and bringing them back.

FLDs parents will not WIN - no matter which way the supremen court rules.

Investigation and felony criminal charges, where, felony child rape or felony bigamy has been committed will follow.

The only question is will CPS be able to hold the children hostage and ransom the parents for evidence while the trial continues or will they have go out and collect evidence the old fashion way.

It is ABOUT TIME some one with half a brain did something right.

Thank you Texas Supreme Court.

Congratulations, Texas Supreme Court, for standing up for the rights of an unpopular group.

However, the devil is in the details, and I've yet to see what those are.

RELEASE THE PRISONERS !!!

It may not be as perfect as the state of Texas would want, but it's YOUR home. Welcome home, kids. Moms, hug them tighter tonight.

Thank God that there are people in authority in Texas who can read the Constitution and who can base legal decisions on the Constitution.

Now, after the children are returned to their families, perhaps the Texas authorities can prosecute the people who removed those children from their families with the same vigor that they want to prosecute the 'crimes' against those children.

We are a nation of laws. Primarily, those laws protect us from the Government, and secondarily, those laws protect us from each other. When the Government runs unconstrained, everyone looses.

Fix the problems in Government before letting the Government fix the problems in society.

I sure hope they collect evidence the old-fashioned way...and make sure it's *actual* evidence, not just their opinions about the FLDS belief system.

Regarding a couple of comments back in the thread... What does Dan Barlow being 76 have to do with anything? There's no law or moral prohibition against having children when you're over a certain age. If you're asking what age Barlow's bride(s) in Texas were, that's a fine question; we'd all be interested to know.

Back toward the beginning of the comments, someone was mentioning that there was no reasonable way the CPS could gather enough information on several hundred recalcitrant subjects to satisfy the requirement of providing evidence to justify contiuning custody within 14 days of removing the children... I can't remember whether the commenter was defending the CPS or not, but that circumstance points out again how overreaching and underthought the CPS's actions were.

Looks like unless there's a lot of new evidence that no one (including the court) has seen before, the only reasonable conclusion is that the Texas CPS made a huge mistake, bit off more than it could chew, and violated the rights of a lot of people in the process.

This is just the first step in restoring the wrongs that have been done to these families. Texas needs to open up its wallet and compensate these families for the torture they have endured at the hands of lawless government officials! Moreover, criminal charges need to be brought against CPS officials that have overstepped their authority!

I only hope that the FLDS have learned a lesson from all of this and that they will quickly and officially abandon their practice of forced arranged marriages of underage girls.

Let's get the worst misinformation out of the way first. Child custody is a civil, not criminal matter. The decision to be made by the Supreme Court of Texas about whether some or all the children should remain in state custody does not have criminal law implications. Any criminal cases that arise due to child sexual abuse will be separate.

The mothers' attorneys felt they had to file a pleading in response to CPS' amended complaint and supporting evidence. However, the quick and dirty effort by these legal aid lawyers is a waste of time. Hardly anything in their response addresses the actual issues. Of most importance, CPS' mission is not to conduct criminal investigations of adults, but to protect children. So, removing the children was in keeping with its mission. Difficulty arose because of the number of children hidden behind the high compound walls. Remedies will be fashioned that allow fit parents to regain custody of their children, but rushing them back to adults who have not been vetted would be a failure to adequately protect these youngsters.

Justice! Now it's time to disbar that self confessed "backwoods" judge.

You don't committe 450 wrong to make one right.

I knew the ACLU would get this all straitened out!

Bleeding the beast, Texas style.

Warren, Merrill, Willie and the rest of the gang will be able to buy even fancier SUVs.

But the women and children won't get a penny.

As it should be in Uncle Warren's neighborhood.

Well, there it is. I'm sure that each and every one of those teen-aged daughters is gonna get a great big hug by their daddies (if they know who their daddies are) when they get home. And tomorrow they'll all be shipped off to marry some 75-year-old guy in Bountiful, Canada or Mexico or Hilldale.

Hey polygamy lovers! It looks like you've won. Congratualtions to all of you.

Truly, the only rational thing that the court could have done!

This is a win for every family in America. When they can take your children away because the Gestapo in another state calls in a hoax, or because your neighbor down the street has done something wrong and you live on the same street, then the Constitution becomes meaningless. On that day, we had better start writing Amerika and saying, "Hello Comrade!"

well - looks like the kids are going back to the "ranch". And the men have had lots of practice on the computer lately putting posts on here.

child porn sites should have a lot more material in the next few weeks...

Personally, I don't like polygamy. But America is not a country where you can put a blanket policy on taking children away because of religion. I don't think these kids should be brainwashed and forced to marry before they are of age. However, abuse should be looked at case by case. How scary that officials could look at a religious group and say EVERY child is in danger. Could they look at Catholics, Jews, Mormons, Muslims, Buddhists, etc. and do the same thing? Maybe the kids are in danger, but our country believes in due process. You need to have proof that each individual child is in danger. I would hope if someone made a complaint about my religion because they think it is strange that officials would come check things out before hauling my babies away. Was it really better for those sweet, scared children to be ripped from their families and given to foster care? Foster care isn't great for kids who are used to the outside world, let alone the FLDS kids who are taught to fear it. God bless these families however he sees fit.