Why is it that lowering taxes mostly on the rich brings economic growth, but lowering taxes on the poor and middle class does not? bull ----.

If taxes are lowered on the lower classes, they have more money to spend, which promotes business and all the blessings that business has.

Trickle up economics, try it, you'l like it even better.

This is not exactly a logicians argument for future tax policy. By the same token if we eliminate taxes altogether, that would fix things??? One thing is sure, we have ONLY two choices, we need to raise taxes or cut spending. The four more years of increasing the national debt at the same pace as the last seven and we might need to consider the "100% option".

I am sorry Richard, but Liberalism has nothing to with what Mr Samuelson was talking about. I think you are talking about greed. You want your tax cuts AND you don't want to pay for anything. Lousy Economics 101.

Yeah, and let's raise this guy's water intake to 100 percent and watch him drown.

This is a happy medium here. Tax reductions do spur the economy and cause some increase in taxes, but not enough to totally offset the drop in taxes caused by the tax decrease. The best evidence of this is the huge deficits under Reagan and Bush. The policies should keep taxes in line with expenditures- hopefully our next president will try to lead and balance the budget and get us away from Cheney's position that "deficits don't matter. Reagan proved that".

Only eight more months till the Bush/Cheney nightmare is over.

Yes Richard, let's take a statement that is reasonable, frame it in an unreasonable way and then insist that we have proven the original statment unreasonable. That in a nutshell is often the neocon response.

If it moves tax it
If it still moves regulate it
If it stops moving subsidize it

Ricard Turner makes some good points in this letter. Oh, wait, no he doesn't. It doesn't make any sense at all.

Mr. Turner, the term you are thinking of is "Communism".

Richard - of course Mr. Samuelson was not proposing a 100% tax as you suggest. Your unwillingness to consider his perspective and your attempt to refute his assertion with childish nonsense only weakens your argument. Civil discourse might be enlightening to both sides. You should try it.

Both Democrats running for president say they will work to lower taxes on the middle class and poor. So of you want taxes lowered vote Democratic for president and don't be a ditto head and believe as Rush would have you too that either democrat will raise your taxes.

first, i don't agree that tax cuts are just for the rich. And I think our whole system is a load of crap.

Ok. cut taxes for lower or middle class - they go out, spend it, and promote business. You are right on.

cut taxes on the highest income earners - of the total $$$ of taxes paid in the US, they pay upwards of 70%, while lower & middle income make up the rest. this single group spends its money investing, starting/funding businesses, creating jobs for lower & middle classes, essentially providing the fuel that makes it all go.

our economy is no hybrid prius and can't get by on the 30% or less that lower & middle income people make or spend.

I'm all for cutting taxes but the real problem is spending. Perhaps the greatest economist of our times, Milton Friedman, said "When you cut taxes and revenues go up, you haven't cut taxes enough". While government spending has gone through the roof under Bush, does anyone know where we can find the annual revenues taking in by Federeal taxes? I've heard the tax cut did actually raise revenues by stimulating the ecomony but can't confirm the source.

Why lower taxes on the rich, they already take more than their fair share?

Don't believe this, then how is it that companies who can't afford to pay health care for their regular workers, have no problem paying $50 million dollars to their high execs, and this whether or not they do a good job?

@vote democrats 9:01 - how do you lower taxes on the poor? They don't Federal Income taxes and they get their social security payments back through the earned income tax credit. So what are you saying? Are you going to exempt the "poor" from sales tax?

"So what are you saying? Are you going to exempt the "poor" from sales tax?"

Why not?????? give them a rebate on sales tax that they pay. We have executives in this country who make millions for running companies into the ground. Increase their taxes, so that the poor who shouldn't be paying taxes anyway can have a break.

Vote democrat - lower taxes. It will never happen and anyone who says otherwise is either lying or doesn't know democrats.

Even conservative economists agree that a tax cut generates only 15% of its cost in additional revenue, the other 85% must be paid for by either spending cuts or an increase in the deficit.

As usual all of the rhetoric about taxes is off base. We should start by reigning in the spenders in Congress on both sides of the isle. Bridges to nowhere, kickbacks for political cronies, draining the social security fund, payoffs to operatives foreign and domestic. Both sides of Congress are responsible for this mess. I don't know about you but when my children misuses their privliges take them away. I think that would be a great place to start with the out of control children we have sent to Washington.

What you tax get less of (productivity) what you subsidize you get more of (poverty/inactivity)

BY the way - please don't use your liberal propagandist label: "trickle down economics". It's called supply side economics and all the data show that it works for our economy. President Kennedy was the original supply sider back before the Democrat Party was taken over by Socialists

I don't care if you want to refund the sales tax the so called "poor" pay. But if you do then I want to take away their right to vote. If you rob Peter to pay Paul then Paul is going to keep voting for you.

"What you tax get less of (productivity) what you subsidize you get more of (poverty/inactivity)"

Right, so lets tax hard work by common people a lot less as Obama has said he wants to do. Don't we need more people working harder? Yes we do, so vote Obama.

If we are going to take away people's right to vote, lets start with people who run companies, who take home millions and 10's and 100's of millions of dollars, even though they run the companies into the ground.

If you think a poor person not paying their meagar taxes is so bad, how much worse is someone taking millions, when they don't earn it. This robs wealth from the rest of us, in terms of decreased pay, decreased benefits, increased costs for goods and services.

So lets start with these rich parasites first.

My favorite part of all this is how the "rich" are automatically as evil as Hitler or Stalin. We all know the only possible way for anyone to get rich in any way is to oppress everyone else, tackle your mother at the grocery store and steal her pension check with the help of the police. Those evil evil rich people MUST be stopped at all costs!

Of course it has nothing to do with possibly working harder and/or smarter than everyone else and putting yourself in a position to take advantage of any breaks that may come your way. Could it be just that some are working instead of complaining? Nope, can't be.

And before you go on a typical "just another rich guy spouting off" my family's combined income last year was under $75k. But I am WORKING hard to be able to one day be among those who pay 70%+ of the total taxes collected in this country, rather than just complaining about how sour my grapes are.

My liberal tax logic:

I love a bargain as much as the next guy.
But if I want the best car/ice cream/widget in the world, I know it's generally going to cost me more.
If I want to live in the best country in the world, I know it's generally going to cost me more.
I do live, and want to live, in the best country in the world!
I also want the best country in the world to keep getting better.

Ergo, I just don't get too worked up about paying taxes.

to supply side 101: JFK cut the top tax rate from 91% to 70%. It is now 35% yet growth has been anemic compared to the Kennedy/Johnson years. Economic growth was stronger after Clinton raised taxes than it has been since Bush Jr. lowered them.

Who is saying the rich are bad in this discusson? I read several of the posts and haven't read this.

I think what is being said here, is that its not fair to cut rich taxes a lot, and the middle class and the poor get the crumbs.

I happen to agree that if taxes are going to be cut, why cut taxes on people who are already doing well, cut it on those who need it the most.

While the rich aren't "evil" and some have indeed worked hard (while many others were born into the right family) I know the rich executives at my company pay almost nothing out of pocket. Their car, lunch, parking, things most people pay for out of their salary and ends up taking about 15% out of their paychecks, are all free...so as soon as the rich want to have an even playing field on everyday purchases I will listen to them about deserving lower taxes over the middle and lower class.

is PC code for "from each according to his ability", which we all recognize is part of the socialist mantra of Karl Marx. When we implement a "from each according to his ability, to each according to his need" approach we change the reward structure of society from producing something that people want to establishing need. If my need is greater than yours I get part of the money you would otherwise be allowed to keep. It has nothing to do with what I produce. Ayn Rand pointed out that in those circumstances ability decreases until there is none left and need increases until it is infinite. Ronald Reagan said that if you tax something you get less of it and if you subsidize something you get more of it. Both are correct. The basic democrat doctrine is tax the rich and government entitlements, wich is nothing more than restating Marx. We can not have a growing economy with the attitude of the left. We will eventuall kill the very thing that makes this country great, and when we do we will prove another doctrine of the left which is - America stinks.

"While the rich aren't "evil" and some have indeed worked hard"

Don't forget that regular people also work hard, Skilled laborers work hard and train hard to learn their craft. Teachers work hard and for very low pay. Policemen and soldiers work extra hard in addition to putting their life at risk.

We all deserve our fair share in the great American economic pie. Not just the few at the top.

Why is it we can't tax the most well off fairly, lest they lose their incentive to do what they do, but we have no problem taxing the middle class even more than the well off, in terms of how much pain the taxes cause, aren't we afraid that the middle class will lose their incentive to do that they do?

Just because Karl Marx agreed that the tax burden should be fair, is no reason to discount it. I'm certain Carl Marx also was an advocate of breathing and eating. You aren't going to repudiate these things just because Carl Marx was an advocate are you?

I used to be a janitor and now I am a doctor. I was not born wealthy. I paid for every penny of my education. I still don't think I am rich. Everyone else thinks I am rich. My income is good but I went twelve years without any income. My IRA has $3500 and I am almost 50 years old. You will know me because I will be the doctor still working when I am 80 years old. Don't tax me into oblivion because of some rich guy that gets corporate perks. I have none. I manage to make my mortgage payment just like everyone else.

I don't think that doctors are the rich being spoken of here. Its the businessmen who run companies into the ground and take millions. Then tell their workers there is no money for health care.

Doctors surely do make a good living, but they also contribute a lot and work hard to get their education and work hard in their profession.

Why should a business leader make millions, and their workers struggle to take their families to doctors because they don't have insurance?

I don't think that the Marx approach to taxes is fair at all. Why is it that anyone must be taxed to the point of killing incentive? This applies to the rich and the middle class. We are seeing the results of our entitlement (to each according to his need) government. The rich don't want the rewards of their work to be taken any more than the middle class want their rewards taken either. In both cases we are killing incentive to be productive. Our whole system is based upon class envy and "something for nothing". If you have it, and I can convince enough people that you don't deserve it I can have the governme take it from you and give it to me (all I have to do is establish a "need" that I can sell as greater than yours). I don't need to go out and work for it. I just have to whine to the right people and they will do what is illegal for me to do - they will take it from you.

take heart tax and spenders.... latest data on political contributions shows that most of the wealthy and "well educated" such as Doctors, Investment bankers, Lawyers and Professors (naturally) support the Democrat Party. Figure that one out! While most financial support for Republicans is coming from blue collar types (contractors, plumbers, electricians, janitors)
My theory is that people that actually work for their money and know how hard it is to make want the Government to take less while the people that "Daddy took care of" until they were 26 don't understand the value of a dollar. Oh well - I still want them to keep more of their money

Roland, my friend, let's not forget our history. When JFK was President how many places in the world were sound places to invest capital? Not very many considering half the world was under the Iron Curtain. How many places today are there where people can invest money where it is reasonably secure? A whole lot more than in the 1950's. Try India, China, Ireland and Brazil for starters. If we raise capital gains taxes so that they are not competitive where does the capital go? Someplace else. The former Soviet bloc countries are very friendly to capital and their economies are rockin'.
No one has talked about raising the income tax on highest tax bracket higher than 39% so I'm not sure why that number(70%) is relevant. Obama has said that he will definitely raise the capital gains tax however (and the social security tax to boot). You want the economy crippled? Have at it

Well take heart, that is one theory, another is that the well educated actually are, well, better educated, and that they don't get duped as easily as some blue collar workers. No offense to the blue collar worker, being one myself, but people that work for a living and then support GOP tax cuts for the rich are being duped, people that work for a living and than support the anti-union stance of the GOP are being duped, working people that support the gutting of worker's rights laws by Republicans are being duped.

Those that don't realize the sham of trickle down economics are being duped, those that don't know that they are getting less pay, less reward, for their labor today then they were thirty years ago are being duped.

Maybe the well educated recognize this. Maybe the well educated realize how destructive todays Republican party has been to the livelihood of the working man.

Of course the Dems have problems but in todays two party system they are the only way to go for the worker.

Hey labor, wake up, the rich are not your friend!

I work for a living and don't envy the rich and don't want their money either. Am I being duped? I have had three union experiences in my life. I was raised on a farm and if I had acted with my father, or grandfather, like the unions that I worked in and around I wouldn't have been able to sit for a week. The union work ethic I experienced was completely opposite from the one I was raised with. Sad thing was, it wasn't always the regular working guy - it was the union brass that had them developing callus's on their backsides rather than their hands. Our tax the rich philosophy is destructive because it is based upon envy and getting something for nothing. If that doesn't change we are doomed.

Hey Mark - wait until you have one good year and then have to scratch a check to the Government for enough money to pay for 5 years of retirement(with interest over 20 years) then you might change your tune.
Do you think blood sucking trial lawyers that don't build anything and constantly tear down all the hard work that went into building businesses help the country? Yes? Then vote Democrat. Do you believe in National Sovereignty or do you think justice in the US should be subject to international courts? Yes? Vote Democrat. Do you think free trade hurts America?Yes? Vote Democrat. Do you believe tax dollars should fund abortions? Yes? Vote Democrat. Do you value your private property rights? No? Vote Democrat. Do you think the good people that practice the "religion of peace" bear us no ill will? Vote Democrat. Do you believe illegal immigration should be stopped? Yes? Vote.... wait, it doesn't matter, neither party wants to stop illegal immigration....as I was saying. to heck with taxes ... there are a lot more serious issues facing this country
(and global warming ain't one of 'em)

I hear over and over from people that say the poor need a tax cut more than the "rich". Then someone needs to tell me how, when the top 50% of tax payers (the so-called rich) pay 93% of the income taxes in our country. If you don't pay income taxes, how do you get a tax cut?

The only thing that comes to my mind is welfare. Taking from those of that do pay taxes, and giving it to those that don't.

When was the last time anyone got a job from a poor person.

Let's reduce tax deductions for all the children that keep popping up in our valley. Let's practice some birth control, people. That and let's take away some of corporate religions tax exemptions. A few less churches mean a lot less eyesores. The rich pay far less taxes than I do proportionately. I say hit them hard. Time to trade in your Hummers. If Ayn Rand was so smart, how come she's dead? When news of her passing came to the mythological world, Atlas is said to have shrugged with disinterest.Oh and Ronnie Reagan built up the largest federal deficit in history partly due to his trickle down economic theories. It amazes me that people are buying into this notion that this moron was a great president. Pretty soon, they'll be saying G.W. Bush was a great president. Ok, so I was stretching it a bit. One more thing. Why all the Groucho Marx bashing?

Take heart, what are you talking about? Nice illogical rant there old boy. You have been listening to the radio boys too much.

But having to "scratch a check to the Government for enough money to pay for 5 years of retirement(with interest over 20 years)" (?) If you mean make enough money to have to pay taxes for an amount equal to five years retirement! Heck yes I'm in! I make relatively good money (I am above the average, by quite a ways) but let's see. . . five years of retirement at oh, I don't know lets say, what, 50,000 a year, so you are talking about cutting a check for 250,000?

How much would one take down that year?

No, No I don't think I will change my tune. I would not whine about making that kind of money.

And mark, mark, mark, you did not hear me say anything about tax the rich (but yes they need to be taxed). Tax cuts targeted at the rich are a travesty.

Or do you really think that taxes are just for the little people?

The labor movement created the middle class.

Neither of you addressed my points.

Mark: there's no sense debating someone who believes the labor movement created the middle class. Do you think there was no middle class in the 1900's or just rich and poor? I'll tell you what creates a middle class: private property rights. If you don't believe me then look at Mexico - no property rights and they have Rich, Poor, and dirt poor economic stratas
BTW - I paid 50,000 in income tax one year and compounded at 5 to 10% it would pay for 5 years of retirement in 20 years. I haven't paid that much in a few years but I still pay a pretty good chunk of change- and all of you that think taxes should be higher can feel free to send a check to the IRS to appropriate as they see fit