Deseret News | Catholics told not to give LDS parish data

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Catholics told not to give LDS parish data

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G Jiles | 4:04 p.m. May 4, 2008

It is now official the LDS church and its practices are not christian. The Pope has spoken and so let this pass.

response to Truth Sayer | 4:07 p.m. May 4, 2008

Good post!
to "pj" who responded to it....spoken like a true fundamentalist. Bet I can guess your church affiliation.

To the Rev: | 4:08 p.m. May 4, 2008

You can proxy-baptize me into your church - doesn't mean I'm going to accept it, though.

Comments continue below

Clark | 4:22 p.m. May 4, 2008

First the FLDS fiasco and now this. I certainly say the LDS church has an uphill battle in establishing legitimacy as a respectable faith.

Surprised | 4:31 p.m. May 4, 2008

In answer to a number of commenters who wonder if an LDS member would be offended if the Catholic Church or FLDS decided to do ordinances or rituals for my deceased ancestors, the answer is no. I am not offended, but rather appreciative of their friendship when my Catholic friends have lit candles for my deceased mother-in-law. I simply refuse to let Catholic Church's position on this destroy the wonderful friendships I have with numerous Catholics. Though I am confused at the logic of Catholic Church's position, as an LDS member, I refuse to take offense at it. Hopefully, someday, sooner rather than later, there will be more of a meeting of minds between Catholics and Mormons on this issue.

Rob | 4:34 p.m. May 4, 2008

We live in a digital age. It means there are new kinds of dangers. It's understandable if the Catholic or Jewish leaders think the LDS church has secret plans to use all this data they are collecting on people and families to do something other than what they say they are doing, which is performing proxy ordinances. I'm sure there are some people who think the LDS church's explanation for why they do geneology is just to hide some more sinister plot. The LDS church knows well the threats of someone else writing their history. But the solution is not for every church to shut their doors and try to keep people away from historical materials, but rather to create their own databases similar to the LDS churches vast geneological records so they can keep the LDS church or any other entity that they think may be a threat to them in check.

Shadow | 4:34 p.m. May 4, 2008

Let me try to get through all of this with a scenario. Let's pretend that the Mormon faithful and their authorities are asked by the Christian Church of the Magic Wand to turn over their membership records, living and dead, so that the Christian Church of the Magic Wand, can do some ceremonies in which the little fingers of the dead turn into magic wands and that that will please God according to the Christian Church of the Magic Wand.

Would Mormon authorities cooperate?

And that is why the Roman Catholic Church has said no. It is about time.

Note: I am not a Catholic but I certainly understand where they are coming from on this. Let's have a little respect for the dead... and for a Christian Church of more than a thousand years.

The Shadow Knows

Rob | 4:36 p.m. May 4, 2008

As to people thinking its disrespectful to perform proxy ordinances of baptism, well that is understandable to. It's just because they don't understand the doctrine and they have been told things about the work that simply aren't true. For example, in high school my sister dated a guy that was not LDS. He asked her, "what's this dipping for the dead that your church does? Do you really baptize dead people?" Once she explained that we don't baptise dead people, what baptisms for the dead were, and why we do them he didn't have any more problem with it. Maybe this will all lead eventually to more openness and sharing of historical materials, and other churches will build their own geneological libraries that will be shared with the public.

russ | 4:40 p.m. May 4, 2008

I know this might sound... well... small... but if God is God, then wouldn't be kind of silly to think that God needs us to write out a list of anything, or baptize for the dead, etc. Wouldn't just a single prayer, group shot as it may be, cover everything?

My God is the master of the universe. I don't know the size of yours. Mine is omnipotent. Omnipresent. The beginning and the end. He or She does not need us, we need him. When one believes that we have a mission to do things and without that being done, God's will will be thwarted ... is to prove that our God is too small.

Get a bigger God. Relax about the baptisms for the dead. Good grief.

Great Point, Russ | 4:51 p.m. May 4, 2008

The focus on the trivial trivializes the power of God. As though God spends all day keeping track of who was baptized by proxy...

Robert | 4:57 p.m. May 4, 2008

As an devout Latter-day Saint, I hold no ill feeling towards the pope and still respect him for the stand that he has made. He has made a decree for what he feels is the protection of those who trust him to protect the sanctity of the flock.

It was an honest act upon his part in good faith. The pope has made many such proclamations that talk about defending what he believes to be right.

Let us hope that he can see our efforts to make our records available to all people. It is our hope that others will feel like we are friendly and open to all walks of life to access records for the benefit of their families.

I do make this plea, what benefit do we get out of doing this work for others if our work is for naught? Isnt that the same as priests going and praying over the dead? Even if we claim that ours is the true authority....do they not also do the same?

Let us pray to work together. I work to respect others faith, I hope others respect mine.

Rob | 4:59 p.m. May 4, 2008

Russ,

Your knowledge of the doctrine of baptisms for the dead is very weak. You obviously aren't aware it was taught and practices in early christendom and that the Bible supports it.

God certainly is omnipotent, etc. but that doesn't mean he is going to snap his fingers and we are going to turn into good smart people. Even God is subject to certain rules. For example, omnipotent means God can do anything right? Well then can he make a rock bigger and heavier than he can lift?

PJ | 5:02 p.m. May 4, 2008

To Truth Sayers fans

No, you're wrong again, you are now only removing all doubt as to whether or not you have any cognitive abilities. We get it, you don't.

Fundamentalist's of any faith don't subscribe to baptisms for the dead. This is unique to Mormons.

Again, John 3:5, 1st Corinthians 15:29.
Available for all to see in every Christian bible.

Look, when you still think Revelations was the last book written in the Bible, then there is not even a starting point with one, so ignorant.

And to all who want the genealogical records for ancestry and ordinances performed, they are available on the Ancestral file and IGA, already.
Again, moot points of concern.

The Catholic ban is only for Mormons. If they do allow public access in the USA, it must be for all or none. The US constitution assures us of that.

If anybody for any reason wants to perform a ritual for my soul, then have at it.

Light me a candle, sacrifice a worm, pray to your 7 headed Deity, commune with aliens, channell the mystic beyond, whatever. I say to you, ta. I'm honored.

If it's not fattening, immoral, or indecent, carry on.

re: Rob | 4:34 p.m. | 5:02 p.m. May 4, 2008

What are you talking about ï¿½sinister plots?ï¿½ Thatï¿½s bizarre. Did you even read the article? The Vatican clearly said why it did not want to deseminate the data:

ï¿½ï¿½due to the confidentiality of the faithful and as not to cooperate with the erroneous practices of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.ï¿½

The Vatican does not want the confidentiality of any living members breached. Additionally, they believe like all other Christian churches that the practice of baptism for the dead is wrong and heretical, and the Catholics do not want to condone something that contradicts their beliefs. The LDS Church will not get the Vatican to back down on their statement...itï¿½s clearly based in their theology.

I don't get it..... | 5:03 p.m. May 4, 2008

If the intent of the Catholic church is to prevent Mormon temple stuff from happening, then they are essentially saying the Mormon rituals have an impact on the dead. Are they saying the Mormon rituals make dead Catholics into dead Mormons? Sounds like fear is the culprit. Do whatever religious rite you want with my name when I'm dead. I believe Christ will be the judge so whether the Catholics, Mormons, Muslims, Buddists, or whatever faith does something with my name, I don't believe Christ will condemn me for anything they do. If Christ requires one of the religions to do something for me so I can be in heaven, then great, hopefully one of them is right and the things the others do won't negate what the one right one does. Ignorance breeds fear & hate.

it's rude | 5:07 p.m. May 4, 2008

It's rude and shows a lack of respect for people of other faiths to baptise their dead. Even though I don't believe it will do anything because I don't believe in anything LDS. I do find very offensive that a group would try to undermine a person who has made their choice about their god and their faith. You may think you are doing good but I find it offensive. Sorry that is just what I think and I think you should get the family's permission before doing anything with their dead loved ones.

Ain't no thang | 5:10 p.m. May 4, 2008

I'm LDS, converted from Catholicism 8 years ago. This doesn't bother me or offend me at all. We should respect the wishes of the Catholic Church. To me it is akin to obeying the laws of the land.

The plan of salvation, most specifically salvation for the dead, is what helped seal the deal of my conversion. I realized that if Jesus Christ and his Gospel truly is the way to salvation (John 14:6), then everyone would have to do the same exact things to be saved. And with the same ordinances being done for everyone, then all mankind will get the same exact chance to accept or reject it. That told me that God is completely fair.

If indeed the LDS Church is the true church, and our doctrine is true, then God will not leave people hanging just because access to their records was denied. He will work out things fairly in the end. Let's trust in Him and move on.

Just Curious | 5:13 p.m. May 4, 2008

What does the Mormon Church believe is the purpose baptism? I never thought about it until reading all these posts.

What? | 5:17 p.m. May 4, 2008

Someone above referred to God as "He or She"? Please read St John 15:18-21. If you don't know who God is, then what are you worshipping?

Shelley | 5:23 p.m. May 4, 2008

Hey, I've got a compromise.

Not so very many years ago, the Jews were offended to discover that some Holocaust victims had been given proxy baptisms. Out of respect for the history and feelings of those of another faith, the LDS Church no longer allows its members to perform proxy baptisms for Jews unless the member involved can show family ties to the ancestor being proxied.

That way, we are showing consideration for the opinions and emotions of our friends of another faith, but the rights of people to provide what they see as a service to their beloved ancestors is also not being smothered. Why not do the same thing for the Catholics, if they feel offended by the ordinance of proxy baptism for the dead?

Don | 5:24 p.m. May 4, 2008

Here we go again. Someone of another faith with the lack of knowledge to our faith and assuming the worst. That is called fear of the unknown. If they would truly try and understand the extent of what those records can be used for then there wouldn't be a problem. Knowledge is power, and obviously they are powerless, and look who they are hurting, not themselves, their own perishioners.

Bocephus | 5:28 p.m. May 4, 2008

The Catholic Church said no......you mormons can't have their records. Sorry. All of your whining and tantrums won't change a thing. The records belong to the Catholic Church, not to the LDS church. Do whatever you want with your own records, but leave others alone. Simple enough for ya?

Jeremy | 5:33 p.m. May 4, 2008

How sad are these little little kneebiter catholics and 'christians' as they attack the church through this post. We are authorized from god and I am sorry if you do not wish to believe but still the same we are authorized for this ordinance and furthermore hold up the one true church on this earth today. Thank you folks for you comments but gods work will carry on through the one true church on this earth and no naysayers nor false or corrupt religions will dictate how we do that.

Re: russ | 5:32 p.m. May 4, 2008

Nice straw man russ. It was especially useful for talking down to the others on this board. I especially like how you try to make it sound as though we believe in a higher being that is somehow different from your God - as though you and your God are a little too "big" for us.

Anyway, here's the bigger picture - the LDS believe that performing proxy baptisms is a commandment from God. You don't believe that and that's fine. You don't see anyone here ridiculing you for that. But we believe that commandments from God aren't "silly" or "small" as you've tried to paint our beliefs. I'm sure it didn't seem right to Abraham that he should sacrifice Isaac but he tried to anyway because it was a commandment from God. I'm sure we don't fully understand all of the reasons why we need to perform proxy baptisms or keep records here on earth, but we do it because we believe it is a commandment from God. Pretty simple

re: Non Mormon | 5:38 p.m. May 4, 2008

Your childish metaphors don't apply. You're performing rituals for people who are dead and can't answer for themselves. You're taking on the right of deciding for them. You assume that your religion is the only true religion, that the religion they chose is meaningless. And you rationalize that by saying that you're giving them a chance at your one true religion. Now that is the definition of arrogance. But then, that's what happens when people come from a small, closed minded society, when they're told what to do, what to think.

Re:Robert | 5:40 p.m. May 4, 2008

If you can't see the difference between praying for someone, and baptizing them without their permission, then you don't understand much at all.

flaggram | 5:47 p.m. May 4, 2008

I was born in a Catholic hospital in Pennsylvania. At that time their practice was to baptize all children born in case they died before receiving that ordinance. Therefore, I was probably baptized a Catholic before I was baptized at 8 years of age. It means nothing to me that I was baptized a Catholic. There was no authority or proper method. So do I worry about it...no!! Therefore the Catholics should not worry about LDS baptisms for the dead if they don't think there is any meaning in it. Let it rest and allow people who want to search out their ancestors do their thing.

Talisyn | 5:51 p.m. May 4, 2008

the funniest comment i read was someone asking if the LDS church would mind if people took the records of those in polygamous marriages in the past went and divorced them all. honestly, the church doesn't ask what people do with the records they get in family history centers. it's conceivable that other churches are performing their own sacred ordinances with the names. i don't think the LDS church really cares. i know i don't. in fact, i would love to hear that my great-great-great-great uncle horace was baptized in the church of the hairless bunny last week. people are too touchy about religion. just relax, grab an ice-cold drink of whatever, and trust that God has a sense of humor.

to "Mom" & "DeseretratinNC" .... | 5:53 p.m. May 4, 2008

...and other petty critics; if you don't want to discuss this subject, show some manners and just move on. The rest of us DO want to discuss it.

Who is next? | 5:55 p.m. May 4, 2008

First the Jewish faith and now the Catholics. I think the LDS church is on the short end of the stick with this practice.`

tlpick | 5:56 p.m. May 4, 2008

Orin you simply don't understand what the LDS church does with records it gets from Catholic parishes. It takes one tracing their family line to be able to do any temple work for them. I nor anyone else cannot just take an entire parish record and do a baptism for the dead. The person you are doing it for also has to accept it. I personally would care if any Church wanted to take the LDS Church records and perfrom ceremonies for us that way I just might receive double the blessings.

here's my 2 cents | 5:57 p.m. May 4, 2008

So many LDS church members are saying here that they wouldn't mind having work for them done in other churches after they have passed on. I'm curious to know how they would feel if the Catholic church started re-baptizing people like Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, and the rest...and then the Pope came out with an official declaration saying that God told him that these people have accepted the work and would now be referred to as "Catholic." I don't think it would go over so well.

Also, what kind of cruel and uncaring god is it that the Mormons believe in...the kind who would damn his children to hell for not having had the chance to learn about the LDS church? That's what they're saying when they tell you that the temple ordinances are necessary for the dead.

tlpick | 6:00 p.m. May 4, 2008

Mark no one has baptized Martin Luther. He is still Luthern. No one would re-write your history. If one of your desendents becomes LDS and choose to baptise you when you have passed on you have the right to choose that ordance or not. No one forces it on you.

vaase | 5:59 p.m. May 4, 2008

Peace be unto you my brothers and sisters! Let not your hearts be troubled or be attacked. Surely I am so surprised at the good shepard's proclamtion on the matter[not!].

I will surely bring forth this matter to the attention of the cardinals, and his highness for a round of discussions at our next meeting of very sound minds, for no one [un-hallowed hands]can siop the work of the Almighty. For the work of saving souls shall go forth.

Until then...Hail Mary full of grace unto thee!!!

Reader | 6:01 p.m. May 4, 2008

Ah yes, the Catholic Church covering all it's bases. Can't lose any more members after this life can they? Wonder why they're so concerned since they don't believe it anyway. Or maybe they do believe but won't admit it.

If the roles were reversed... | 6:04 p.m. May 4, 2008

I honestly wouldn't care. I'm actively LDS and would have absolutely no problem if some other group out there decided to have baptisms done for me or my family after we're dead. I don't feel threatened by other groups. And even though I disagree with it, I have attended a number of baby baptisms because I love and support their families. The baby isn't harmed. :o)

I do hope that this policy is changed, as it does present serious problems for many people -- LDS and non-LDS -- in trying to research their family histories.

Lynda T | 6:09 p.m. May 4, 2008

If a baptism is done for anyone after they are deceased, the baptism will only take effect if the deceased person chooses to accept it. No one is forced into anything.

PROOF!! against them | 6:19 p.m. May 4, 2008

"except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God"

I read this on an earlier post. What an IRONY!!

Say that the LDS church for sure is the only true faith of the one true God. If that was the case then the Catholic church is hindering millions and millions and only doing more to hurt people. Their history is full of this and they STILL WILL NOT CHANGE. What an evil thing.

So rather than POSSIBLY hurting millions, you think they wouldn't want to take the chance.

God didn't create man to hide the truth from him and give visions to a few and then stop.

God is an unchanging God. He does not give Moses a vision and centuries apart give others visions. and more and more...then suddenly stop. After reading the Book of Mormon there is no denying that it is solid. It is truth. Joseph wasn't asking to fight everyone. He was chased down and stripped of freedom as the prophets of old.

Are people so dumb that they believe that reading the book will kill them?

Those who seek truth find it.

James 1:5

Not about Mormons | 6:30 p.m. May 4, 2008

This edict from the Vatican is NOT about the LDS church. Look at what the pope has been doing. He's returning the Catholic Church back to its traditions. Vatican II nearly destroyed the church. He is trying to give it an identity again, rather than following the whims of the world.
This is just one more such step. He's saying, "We are not LDS. We are of the Catholic tradition. We have tried too hard to be like everyone else. It is time to take a stand."
Some LDS are so full of themselves that they think this is an attack on Mormonism. It is not.
Now, the good news...the parishes seldom listen to Rome!

Anon | 6:37 p.m. May 4, 2008

Did any one think that this is the reason why the prophets over the past many years have asked us to step up the temple and family history work - they saw this coming and I am sure there is more to come that will hamper the lords work for a season.

Susan C. | 6:43 p.m. May 4, 2008

I am not Mormom. If I want to be a Mormom, I can get baptized while I'm alive. Anyone baptizes me after I die, I'm coming back to complain.

Jed M. says the Catholics have no authority to speak for the dead; well, the Mormom church doesn't either.

A little more study... | 6:43 p.m. May 4, 2008

There are definitely a lot, many, non-scholars of the bible. I amazed at some of the simple minded statements and shallow arguments. Its becoming very apparent to me that most "christians" have no idea what the bible teaches. They created a life philosophy over a few scriptures and passages but have not taken the bible in its fulness. Ironically, without a complete knowledge of the Holy Bible they are trying to lecture the LDS faith on what they believe. An absolute demonstration of arrogancy.

ToSetefano&LDS | 6:47 p.m. May 4, 2008

Folks, the last thing I want is to sound preachy. That said, it would be good to carefully gauge what is said about our beliefs in the Church on these posts. It is important to be steadfast and bold in one's testimony, but remember that the Saints were kicked out of Missouri for a reason. It was the pride they had among themselves as well as the pride in their beliefs. Pride in their beliefs was manifest by wearing the truthfulness of the gospel on their cufflinks to people of other faiths and essentially condemning them at the same time.

I would hope to be thoughtful as I address others in forums like this and consider how President Monson would address such a topic.

What about baptism for the dead? The Lord will work things out for the best if we do our part and try to be diligent in living Christ-like lives, just as He always has.

I can see it now | 6:47 p.m. May 4, 2008

The Catholic Church requesting of the mormon church all marital records since mormon marriages are invalid as determined by the Catholic Church. The Catholic Church, in loving kindness, only wishes to legitimize the offspring.

P. Roxey | 6:50 p.m. May 4, 2008

If the LDS practice of baptisms for the dead is not valid in the eyes of the Man Upstairs, then it's just a bunch of misled nimrods wasting their time.

If it's valid, then it must be important.

But either way, what's the harm in trying to tie the human family together?

silly | 6:52 p.m. May 4, 2008

It doesn't cut both ways as was posted above. Any mormon could care less if the FLDS or any other religious group decided to proxy baptism in their temple. The point is that it's a *proxy* baptism, not a cursing. The person who the baptism is for gets to decide for themselves if they want it. If someone of another religion decided to baptize for the dead and offered a proxy baptism for my ancestors, I'd care less because it wouldn't mean anything. As was said many times above - if you believe the other churches are wrong, then the baptism wouldn't mean a thing. Obviously, the Catholics must believe that the LDS have the priesthood or the restored gospel if they care so much about the LDS offering baptisms for the dead. Else, why would they care at all?

Mrs. Gecko | 6:55 p.m. May 4, 2008

Boy, the Catholic Church must be scared! They don't even recognize LDS baptisms anyway! I was graduated from a Catholic high school, having been raised by an Irish Catholic mother who was a genealogist back in the 60's. She often complained that the priests all over America and Europe were a major roadblock to her work and she even resorted to bribing them with money to get the records she needed. Obviously she just did the work for history's sake and was upset when I was baptized Mormon, but finally accepted that I was doing vicarious baptisms for all the hundreds of family names because she believed lt "it would be for naught". Now, that she is deceased and I did her temple work I bet she's really grateful! (Satan may have won this battle, but we know who will win the war!)

Larry in Ohio | 6:56 p.m. May 4, 2008

I am not catholic, but I do respect the Pope very much. There seems to be a lot of LDS envy concerning the Pope in these posts. Could it be his popularity?

Mahershalalhashbaz | 6:56 p.m. May 4, 2008

To sjc 9:44am : Actually the Catholic church used to accept baptism from other "Christian" religions except for the Mormon church. Under the new pope, a statement was made that the Catholic baptism is the only baptism that will bring a person salvation. It ticked off a lot of protestants. Do a search on google and I believe you will find the AP article about it (not that I take the AP to be doctrine of the Catholic church). Anyone else have any info on this?

happy | 6:56 p.m. May 4, 2008

I think if the Mormons want to be respected than they too must respect others. If you know that this offends maybe it would be kind and Christ-like not to do it??!! I am a Catholic - and I believe the Mormon Church has not holds on anyone - we believe in one baptism, no need for another. I believe that God has the final say - not you or I - let's all try to focus on that and things should flow smoother.
Just a quick ? - early post said that when a disaster strikes the LDS church is called upon to help everyone - why then in published photos of some disaster areas there are boxes with "LDS ONLY" stamped on them?

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