Texas CPS shouted PEDOPHILE in the theater and needs to be held accountable.

Americans have civil liberties that the state of Texas has decided don't really count. Remember Tulia? We see the exact same forces of the state engaged in the most outrageous behavior. And the apologist for the state keep saying the end justifies the means. The state of Texas is clearly engaged in un-American and illegal aggression against its citizens.

Return those children to their homes now.

Yay! Hilderbran. Thank goodness somebody updated that ridiculous law. No 14 year old is mature enough to have a long term boyfriend, nevermind get married! It is absurd that it took so long to raise that age up. For once a republican got it right.

So Harvey, you idea of punishing the men is to take the children from their mothers? Sort of like stopping bullies by taking the rest of the kids off the playground.

It should also be noted that the Texas Criminal Code makes it a crime for a person more than three years older than a minor under 17 to have sex with such a minor. Some of the FLDS defenders are relying on the girls being older than 14 at the time of carnal knowledge as a way out. But, even so, most men involved in the conduct would be more than three years older than the minor.

Only time and legal trials will vindicate Texas authorities or show their mistakes. I suspect that Mr. Hilderbran is crossing his fingers and hoping that their laws will stand up. Religious freedom still has a bit to say about how all this will end up in the long run. Child sexual abuse should not be tolerated. However, early marriage and raising a family to serve God as the FLDS believe is a totally different thing. A woman who leaves the FLDS and joins a very vocal Christian church should not be allowed to define what others who remain in the FLDS really believe just as LDS, Baptist, Catholic apostates are not very good sources for evaluating the beliefs and doctrines of their respective religions.

In other words, up until the time that FLDS moved in, Texas thought it was perfectly OK for 13 year old females to be married with parental consent (yes 13, not 14 as this aricle states).

Thank you Rep. Harvey Hilderbran of Texas!
As a 67 year old member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, I applaud your efforts. May God bless the good people of Texas!

khs@xmission.com

Marriage law should be simple: No female child can be legally married without both parents (exception 1 parent if 1 parent has legal custody) permission if she is under 18. No female child can be married if under the age of 16, with concent. A female child under 16 is considered a victim of rape, regardless of consent, if the person having sex with the child, is more than 5 years older. Marriage of the female child under 16 to a man more than 5 years her senior is not legal and binding, hence the male partner is charged with rape, regardless of consent.
A man or woman can be married to no more than 1 man or woman, of the opposite sex, at one time. A common law marriage is considered a legal marriage if there have been sexually relations between the parties.
(this should help separated spouses, clarify the consequences of their actions, recalling that until a divorce is final they are indeed married)
Why doesn't Utah have a simple common sense law such as this? I welcome your comments.

This guy makes my skin crawl, and makes me ashamed to call myself not only a Republican, but an American. What a crock to tailor legislation again a specific religion. They certainly have no problem with young unmarried, immature girls slutting around Dallas or Houston with older men getting pregnant. No...you take responsibility and you're charged with a crime. I look forward to the day your state gets charged with crimes against humanity.

A little late for that. It's already another Short Creek.

I agree with the sentiments of this lawyer and hope the State of Texas can protect these children from the environment they were growing up in. This is sad for all concerned.

My reading of Harvey Hildebran's comments are;
The political establishment in Texas will go to great lengths to support the Texas CPS. Texas does not want the flds there. If my reading is correct the flds won't be getting their children back for a long time, if ever. Life for the flds at the YFZ compound will never return to what it was like before the raid. Will the flds now leave Texas and go back to the more tolerable environs of Utah and Arizona?

We will see. Odds are that he is right.

To be honest this guys comments certainly sound as if he would have been right there burning the homes of "those mormons" in the early days of this country too. Sad that we haven't learned anything over the years. How about going into any slum in the country and taking all the children away because over 50% of all child birth in the country now are to unwed mothers and many are underage. Very sad they aren't willing to go after problems like that instead of just people that don't believe the same as them.

I've spent most of my life in Texas before moving to Utah. I was surprised that the FLDS "moved" there, because I know my home state...sooner or later the FLDS would be caught ignoring state law and authorities there wouldn't hesitate to act.

I also expect that there will eventually felony convictions from these "spiritual" marriages with underage girls. This is a crushing blow to the FLDS.

I hate to see children separated from their mothers, but in this case, it probably is for the best. What future do the boys have, when two thirds will be kicked out of their religion and families to maintain the 3 to 1 ratio for wives to husbands. What future do young girls have, pregnant at such young ages? What a mess.

So if 25 or so families all decide to live in some communal setting and then authorities believe they have probable cause to remove the children because of abuse, wouldn't we be hearing from more than the mothers? Wouldn't one of the fathers become a spokesperson and have daily press conferences to state their case? I think that would be the expected response unless the group's leaders had something to hide...

New Hampshire Law:
457:4 Marriageable. – no female below the age of 13 years shall be capable of contracting a valid marriage

I notice the San Angelo newspaper now longer has articles about the FLDS child removal.
I guess the NBC DateLine program last night (Sunday) really showed exactly how wrong the locals were about the living conditions of the children.
I was startled by the smashed open door, the empty beds, the excellent teaching conditions, and the entering of the church.
I am ashamed of what has been done in the name of "law and order".
I wonder what happened to the two missing children.

What about all other Texans that married at 14? you should take all the children not just the FLDS kids Hilderbran!!!!! What's happening are all the other religons protected?

It was foolish of FLDS to move to Texas. However it is clear that this is whole situation is religious persection and bigotry. I am a supporter of prosecuting those who break the law. Prosecute the men not the women and children! I still do not agree that these children are in "immediate danger" to justify what has happened. No charges have been filed and little evidence has been presented.

I am so happy to learn that Texas will pursue criminal charges against the male leaders of the flds. I wish other states would follow the example Texas is setting.

"This violates Texas values and our lifestyle... We are not going to tolerate it." Hilderbran

Wow! That's powerful, Hilderbran. Your lifestyle allowed 14 year olds to marry... until FLDS came to town.

Does your lifestyle also include burning down temples... Waco style?

Perhaps he should of worked harder on cleaning the drugs out of his own county. To keep the children safe in Kerr county from the drugs there. We should clean off our own front porches before we clean up someone elses.

There is only one right way to live. Texas has identified it (until they change it again) and is enforcing it at he barrel of a gun. What's the problem?

I wonder how long it will be before Texas finds out what Jews and many Christians do to their newborn sons . . . .

If he is right, we should all be supporting stricter laws enforcing marriage as a legal institution between one man and one woman. This should be a federal mandate.

Further, we should not tolerate ANY sexual exploit of underage girls - "married" or not. Of course if we follow Tesas' example, we should round up whole groups of children who were the product of such young mothers (often unwed and therefore similar to the "spiritual wives" of the FLDS) and separate them from their mothers for their own good. We should put them in foster homes because clearly there was sexual abuse and could be other problems as well, related to poverty, communal living and immoral attitudes.

Surely foster care would be superior over a single, teenage mother, right? This is the message they are sending. Foster care does not have a record for producing great results.

Why isn't Texas worried about the other mothers, sometimes a young as 12? Why does the country allow abortions without questions. No baby; no problem? Oh, yeah, we made that "legal." Is Texas sending "raiders" out to the abortion clinics to round up all these young girls who have clearly been violated?

I fully agree. The fathers and the male leaders are strangely silent or absent. Your implication that they have something to hide is right on. The only father I have heard about is the man from Nevada who was kicked out of the flds and had his children assigned to another man.

Be aware of EX POST FACT LAW

The Texas Spin Machine is working on a new song and
dance. The truth is being revealed, that this RAID
was, and is about religion. The Baptists are flexing
their religous bigotry, thru the power of the state
of Texas. Rome did the same thing 2,000 years ago.
Things truly never change.
The Exalted Harvy Hilderbran has crawled out for his
day in the sun, and is prancing for a greater office
such as the Govenorship.

Scary --- NAZI GERMANY

"This violates Texas values and our lifestyle and the way we see traditional relationships. We are not going to tolerate it."

An interesting choice of words.

The FLDS didn't believe in Texas (Southern Baptist) "values", "lifestyles" and "traditional relationships", and many Texans apparently don't "tolerate" other religious views. So they took advantage of abuse allegations to kick them out of the state.

Did you notice his remarks about the hunting preserve? That makes me suspect they were thinking about coming after them for zoning violation.

I don't believe the government lost anyone after that raid....

According to the Washington Post, Texas is going to argue that all FLDS children were at risk because the FLDS culture encouraged girls to marry and bear children in their teens.

This from the state that ranked, according to Guttmacher Institute, second highest in the country in teenage (15-19 years old)birthrates in 2000. In 2001, the Texas Department of Health announced that 1 out of every 34 teenage girls ages 13-17 gets pregnant and that 13.1% were repeat births. But thank goodness the Texas officials felt the FLDS chilren (all of them down to babies) were in imminent danger because of their belief in marrying and having children young -- they jumped right in there, took the children and are now placing some of the females into foster homes for pregnant teens. I guess from these statistics there should be plenty of teen preganncy homes available and one can only imagine the great atmosphere and potential influence on these girls who had come from loving families and homes.

I don't know about the rest of you, but I smell hypocrisy wafting up from Texas and it doesn't smell very good.

Why were the children taken from the monagomous families at the ranch?

Hmmm...a lot of polygamy apologists posting today (or is it just one or two posting again and again under different names??). Yes there's human tragedy here of children being separated from their mothers. Aside from those who think the whole FLDS scenario is OK, is there any better way to prevent underage girls from being married off to much older men (or forcibly married to a cousin or someone else)? The boys who are booted from the nest when the hormones start kicking in so they don't spoil the "perfect" scenario for the duffers are no less the victims. Don't many of them retain their brainwashed outlook on life and find a naive young girl with whom to start their own little clan? My guess is that's the source for all these mini-enclaves we find embedded in neighborhoods throughout the west.

There's no painless way to remove children from an abusive situation. You just have to do it (and do it NOW) hoping and praying you weren't too late to rehabilitate the children and give them hope of a somewhat normal, self-directed, happy life.

RE the article--only if you've lived in Texas can you understand: "Don't Mess with Texas!!!"

This is my estimate of the results:

Texas: 1 conviction.

FLDS: $1,000,000,000.00

The Waco incident was an FBI operation.

How would you feel if it was your child that was kidnapped, forced into such an environment and molested (under the guise of religious freedom). Yet that is exactly what has happened to many Men (and more than a few women) who appose or disagree with the FLDS Leadership.

Their children are "removed" from that individual and "given" to another (susposably better) individual or family. It is appaling the level of deception and manipulation the leaders of the FLDS and their "faithful" followers go to to distort the truth.

Let Texas do their very dificult job and we will eventually see what the truth really is.

It is true that in other states, and especially in the South,the ambivalence toward polygamy that apparently exists among Utah civil authorities is absent.
It is a mistake to attribute that to anti-Mormon sentiment.
Many LDS where I live feel nothing but revulsion for FLDS practices. I am aware of nothing in LDS teachings that would lead members to condone in the least degree FLDS practices, quite the opposite.
As a "mission field" LDS I find many of the attitudes posted on these boards supportive of YTF puzzling and disturbing.

One also really wonders what made FLDS think Texas would be a supportive place. Quite a miscalculation, but a blessing for the children.

"
RE the article--only if you've lived in Texas can you understand: "Don't Mess with Texas!!!""

I agree "don't mess with Texas". Give them back to Mexico.

What are you talking about? What about the convictions of Warren Jeffs, Rodney Holm, Terrill C. Johnson, David Ortell Kingston, Jeremy Kingston, Tom Green, Kelly Fischer, Donald Barlow, Orson William Black, David Bateman, Dale Barlow, etc. in Utah and Arizona. Why do you think the FLDS started building compounds in Texas, Colorado and South Dakota?

Unfortunately, the probable cause for the search warrant of the El Dorado compound looks weak. While this didn't stop CPS from their ludicrous overreaction, it lowers the chance that Texas will get any convictions out of this. And anyway, don't you expect that the men who broke the law are long gone now? Texas was too busy herding mothers and children to pay attention.

No apologies for the FLDS here. But does Texas have a right to deny due process to anyone? Does Texas have a right to disregard well established child custody law that uses the "imminent harm" test for taking and keeping children away from parents? If you think the ends justify the means, then you are not supporting the constitutional law of the land.

Texas (and all other states) should take reasonable action to protect children, but they must scrupulously follow the law, respecting the rights even of the suspected criminal. Anything less than this leads to more Missouris and Nauvoos.

He says they are "tough on crime." Does that include hate crimes committed against the FLDS?

there is NO constitutional protection to violate the laws and call it freedom of religion. the supreme court has ruled time and again that religious freedoms must be kept within the bounds of the law. not to long ago in this country lynching was a "religious" expression, witch burning was a "religious" cleansing. human and animal sacrifice in the name of religion is also not legal. i fail to see how rape, incest, abuse, and imprisonment are protect "religious" behaviors.

you dont see the FLDS men because standard operating procedure is run out the crying women and children and play up the emotions of everyone. we tend to forget that these "mothers" sold thier daughters into this. they are willing participants in the lifestyle of rape, incest, abuse, and imprisonment. it doesnt matter rto the FLDS male leadership what you do as long as all you see is the women crying tears and wailing with hurt and injustice. you are being manipulated and have fallen victim to a well orginized and rehearsed propaganda machine.

maybe texas did over react but the law will work all of that out. lets not read protections into the constitution that are not there.

Yeah that is right, punish the men by taking the children away from their mothers, makes perfectly good sense to me! That's almost like fining me for a speeding ticket by taking away my wife's drivers license and her car? In future generations this will be seen as a "historical blunder" and totally mishandled. If Texas is so tough on crime does this also include the breaking of constitutional rights to Freedom of Worship and Religious Freedom being violated? I am not supporting "Polygamy" at all, but to shred every family in the Ranch is surely a violation of Religious Freedoms to those people.

at least we protect our children in texas. the CPS action is a civil action, it has no bearing one way or another on the criminal action. they are different burdens of proof. so even if the criminal case fizzles, the CPS case will go on, parental rights can still be terminated or individual families can be reunited.

none of this would happen if children were not being groomed to be raped, groomed to be breeders and if babies were not being waterboarded in an effort to teach them to keep sweet.

In this whole situation it was good to finally hear the laws stated and listed.
Yes, it is totally sad from many sides.
I applaud Texas for following its laws.
The FLDS have broken laws from the beginning by not
telling the truth about why they purchased the land.
How can anyone think that you can break the law. But then the FLDS think they are exceptions to the rules. Not.

This is the way CPS works every day. They play by different rules than criminal courts do. That is why it can become dangerous. They have saved many children but have harmed many more. They do not need evidence, proof, or facts...just a "feeling" by women who may not have children themselves and in most cases and have been taught that all parents do not know how to parent and are incompetent. Google CPS corruption--even in YouTube.. I cried all night long. CPS has a job but they are leaving a wide field of destruction in their paths...and this involves LIVES. I even found recordings of people placing orders for neighborhood children to adopt and CPS saying they would get them for them. They have higher price tags for blond hair white children=more money for the state. I am not a conspiracy theorist but when CPS does not do what their own PhD psychiatrist suggests and would have taken the newborns (which there is rumor that 6 have been taken since the raid to mothers who have birthed them since then) and infants under 12 months had it not been a divine hand of God on Walthers--makes you wonder.

The flds lived in Utah and Arizona for a long time before the authorities prosecuted them and got some convictions. They were in Texas for only a few years before Texas reacted with a raid and DNA testing of everyone. In addition to their unsavory lifestyle the flds are also racist. Reading or hearing Warren Jeffs' views on blacks is chilling. He (the flds) consider blacks to be inferior to whites and to be a cursed race. How anyone can support them is beyond me.

The abuse of religion here is BY the FLDS, not against it. They are engaged in pervasive criminal abusive behavior and seek to excuse it and avoid answering to the law by calling it religion.

Reasonable people see that legal authorities in Texas are struggling in the face of a difficult situation to protect the children and enforce the law. Reasonable people are sickened by the scale and circumstances of the abuse at YFZ and applaud efforts to eliminate it.

Comparisons to Missouri or Nauvoo are perverse. Those were illegal mob actions against innocent people.

The FLDS have been thumbing their noses at the laws of the United States for a hundred years. I'm glad to see someone is taking steps to stop this tradition. I just hope it sticks.