Quote: "We don't trust the judicial system... We trust in God..."

And that's what arrested terrorists suspects tell the U.S. as well.

Thanks to seperation of church and state, religious laws of any kind have no power within our borders. Just talk to arrested terrorist suspects. They will say they want their cases judged under Islamic law. Well, guess what? Islamic law doesn't apply because it is religious law.

I believe that God is forcing the FLDS to learn to "give to Caesar what is Caesar's". If I were them, I would learn this lesson quickly. Part of the reason they are in this mess is because they are arrogant. These people have thought they were above the law because they are in a "special" religion. It's too bad they had to pay a high price to learn this lesson.

Society has no choice but to hold the children. If some of the kids have been abused, then by law our society has to protect the others in the situation.

My hat is off to the guts and logic of the Texas system. Beats what Utah does.

There is something that concerns me about all of this. These children were brought up so differently from other children that the CPS have dealt with. You can't just toss them in any foster care without causing even more harm to these frightened kids. Are they sure they have the best interest of these kids in mind? All of this worries me.

Worldnetdaily is reporting that the "phantom caller Sarah" is a hoax and the perp is being questioned in Colorado.

I wonder how/if this will effect the legal circus going on in Texas.

I haven't met anyone in favor of 14-year-olds being impregnated by older men. But when are the Texas Rangers going to raid the Dallas inner-city homes of pregnant 14-year-olds and cart off the other children, who might be subject to similar abuse? And when will they shutter the Planned Parenthood locations which refuse to report statutory rape of 14-year-olds by men in their twenties? Why isn't there equal treatment under Texas' law?

"...the majority of children taken during a raid on an FLDS ranch showed no signs of physical or sexual abuse..."

There you have it. Case closed, give them back to their parents. Arrest the CPS workers and disbar the judge.

You can't hold children solely based on your own assertion that they might possibly become abused or abusers in 10-12 years. This story just gets more and more absurd.

This Ms Voss obviously has a problem with men. She seems to be intimidated and terrified by the presence of men. Did she expect to find only women present? How does she handle exposure to men in the rest of her life??
If she would go to the local high school she would most assuredly find a higher percentage of pregnant teen agers then were present at the compound. Using her reasoning, the school should be closed because in the future there may be more pregnant girls there.

It's beginning to break down, the possible false caller may have been found, the real reasons for the kidnapping of children are based on the imagined fears of a hostile agent with excessive power.
The power of these agents is really scary when you think about it.They can do mostly anything they want under the disguise of law.

Can we concentrate on the investigation of REAL abuse. There is no shortage of actual abuse to prosecute.

juvenile-family court should be abolished for the farce it is.
Move the whole thing to district court.
If an actual crime has been committed then persons involved should be arrested and prosecuted.
But move it to real court where allegations have to be proved. And where the accused have the benefit of rights given to them by our consitituion
The problem with CPS is that they hide behind innuendo and maybes.

KSR said 
> Thanks to seperation (sic) of church and state,
> religious laws of any kind have no power within
> our borders.

Huh? What part of the US Constitution says anything about separation of church and state and the voiding of religious laws? KSR, like most Americans, needs to go back to third-grade civics.

I remind all the posters who harped about the 5 women who chose to go to the shelter. Turns out they were promised that was the way to get theit children back faster, and when they learned they were duped, they returned to the compound.

The desperation of CPS to reverse-engineer a removal case is obvious, shocking, and undwinding.

How is it possible, for example, given what CPS has said about this religious compound, that only "at least five" children under 18 are pregnant or have children. If we assume 200 of the 416 kids are girls, how in the world do we have only 5? Forget the issue about where (jusrisdiction wise) the under 18's became pregnant, forget the fact that the 16 and 17 year olds are above the age of consent, forget the fact that CPS has failed to give us a number of these 5 that are, or appear, to be under 16. Shouldn't there be more if what they allege about a "widespread", "pervasive" practice is true? And the CPS argument, applied to the boys, is absolutely nuts. Apply it defendants arested for drug possession, high school dropouts, faith healers, etc. Is this really America?

In response to KSR, the reason for seperation of church and state in this country is for the protection of the church FROM the state.

If any children show signs of abuse, pursue that case.

I'm amazed that the CPS worker was so frightened by unamred, plain-clothed FLDS men, when the dogs on her leash had machine guns and black ski masks. Maybe she was frightened because her notepad, where she could write and draw anything her imagination conjured was being counteracted with video cameras belonging to the FLDS members?

If you are ever falsely accused of child abuse, your biggest defensive weapon is a voice recorder and a video camera. Too bad the government agents nabbed as much of the FLDS evidence as they could. It'll probably get "lost" somewhere.

This story is better than anything Hollywood can think up. I predict there will be some bombshells dropped before it's all over.

russ said:
> Society has no choice but to hold the children.
> If some of the kids have been abused, then by law
> our society has to protect the others in the
> situation.

By society do you mean government? Because it was government agents -- not society -- that raided the FLDS compound. They kidnapped 416 children with absolutely no evidence that any of them had ever been harmed (as you said, "*If* some of the kids had been abused"). Just how powerful do you want your society (government) to be? Powerful enough to take your own children or grandchildren based on nothing more than a crank phone call? In my opinion, there are a lot of government agents (including at least one judge) in Texas that should be in jail tonight for abusing their power. No, I'm not FLDS nor do I support or empathize with their beliefs regarding polygamy or child marriage.

How scared and in danger could she feel with all those tanks and armed officers around to back her up? It is clear that, in her mind, there was danger to the children because she was paranoid, not because there was any real danger. They still have not produced evidence of even one girl who was 14 and pregnant. The age now stated in court of pregnant girls has risen from 13 to 17-18 years old. To me it looks like religious bigatry so far.

Based on many response posted about this who very sad event I now understand why such abuse of women, young girls and boys has been tolerated in Utah and Arizona for over 100 years. Same on you all!

Hey KSR, I hope you are next in line to "give to Caesar what is Caesar's," and by this, of course, I mean YOUR KIDS. That is what you are saying.

Wow, they are the arrogant ones? From your self-righteous "I can't stand to condemn just one group at a time I have to throw in others I hate who aren't even involved" tone I would say you might need to look in the mirror, mister.

I lived in Colorado City my entire life. I decided that life just wasn't for me, so I took my 3 kids and left. No "escaping" my family respected my wishes and helped me move to the neighboring town of St.George. These women who claim they had to RUN and ESCAPE is LUDICROUS!! Also the idea of abuse among this people is ludicrous. These "poor picked on" women need to get a life. They are just trying to sell their story. I had a wonderful life there at the "crik" would'nt change it for the world. I grew up with 2 mothers and 25 siblings. 17 of which are still living there and loving it. My mother was adamant about us getting a good education. I have 3 nurses,1 school teacher, 1 engineer, 2 fire fighter/peramedics,1 massage ther.2 dental asst. 1medical asst. and 3 EMT siblings. I GREW UP WITH THESE PEOPLE IN TEXAS AND THEY ARE NOT ABUSIVE PEOPLE! I SEE THEM ON TV FIGHTING FOR THEIR RIGHTS AND IT BREAKS MY HEART WHATS BEING DONE TO THE INNOCENT CHILDREN! IF YOU HAVE A BEEF WITH THE MEN, TAKE THEM AWAY AND LEAVE THE INNOCENT!!!!!

So if some CPS 'expert' determines that even though most children did not show any signs of abuse they were still at risk and therefore that justifies giving the State of Texas permanent custody? Then they have the audacity to say this isn't about their religion but only about sexual abuse. If this raid gets thrown out as being unconstitutional (which appears more and more likely) then the stuff that was taken will likely be tossed as well and there will be no case. Just a lot of distressed kids, parents, lawyers, and one Judge who should have been very cautious about the original orders and warrants.

Like Waco, a tragedy will occur before this is over. Like Waco, the authorities will wish they had done it differently. Like Waco, there will be innocent victims of government abuse of power. Like Waco, those who fail to learn from history are doomed to a repeat.

I hope that the state of Texas is sued for all they have. I further hope that the proceeds would go to these women and children...not the FLDS.

Why was the Baptist church so willing to lend their busses to the authorities to cart the children off?

Why did the authorities confiscate all the videos cameras that they could find from the residents of the community who were filming them taking the children?

Why are authorities surprised that the children presently in captivity prefer more healthy natural foods to canned soda and processed foods?

Why are small boys being accused of being future "perpetrators" of sexual crimes and being punished many years before any crime is actually committed?

It looks to me like a wash. The children are to be "protected" against illegal activities carried on by some of their parents. This protection involves the trauma of taking them from their homes under the escort of armed men with a military style tank, Introducing them to a world of junk food, alcohol, drugs and cigarettes, subjecting them to interviews and grilling about sexual topics by strangers, separating them from their families and sending them off around the country to uncertain futures and possible abuse and neglect in foster homes. Perhaps they'll develop a "normal" interest in baseball and take up the use of steroids?

A total fiasco.

This FLDS compound is no more than a brothel where old men play out their sexual fantasies with young girls and hide behind their religion to justify it.

Forgive me for my naivete, but if an "army" of armed personnel came into your neighborhood looking through your streets and property, and you were a father, wouldn't you be around every corner watching what was going to happen next? Why wouldn't there be men at every entrance? Why wouldn't you want to record what was happening to your family, friends and neighbors? For crying out loud, Voss had full "military" support behind her, she was peacefully and politely allowed access to these people's homes and families, and sits on the stand and tells of how fearful she was! It is amazing how fearful you can feel when you know that what you are doing is wrong and the people you are assaulting know it's wrong and you're violating their personal rights. There was no fear except what Voss and company brought upon themselves by their intrusive behavior. What a farce this legal action is becoming. Judge Walther is clearly out of her league and complicit in this violation. One last point. How hard would it have been to seal off the compound, hold a hearing first before removing 500 people from the secrity of their homes?

I am the mother of three small children. Only one of them is 5 years old and therefore old enough to be a witness. From my experience, once a child latches on to a story that sounds good to them, they can make themselves truly believe it's factual.

This could be used on either side of the case: parents could "brainwash" their children into thinking there was no abuse when there really was, or (which I think is more likely) the CPS could "suggest" to them that abuses happened when they didn't, and the children might then believe it.

Romney's opposition to gay marriage was based on the assertion that children are best raised in a family with one mother and one father. Underage sex abuse completely aside, why do we never hear polygamy criticised for being a threat to marriage the way gay marriage is, for allowing children to have multiple mothers, as these Texas kids apparently believe they have?

To Enablers! / 7:41,
Shame on you for complicity in supporting erosion of constituional protections, for "enabling" full scale intimidation of those not in line with your political or spiritual opinion. Those who see this other than you do in no way support child abuse of any kind. We believe fully that any and all who rightfully ought to be prosecuted for crimes against children should be arrested and face the full brunt of the law, but this CPS action with support of an overzealous "country judge" has wreaked havoc where it ought not have been. Don't call us enablers who believe in the process of constitutional law. That there are serious legal objections so quickly in the process indicates how hasty the actions of the CPS have been. When you go fishing for trout and catch a few, keep them, but don't shock treat the whole lake trying to get your limit.

She was so scared because she had prejudiced ideas about these people. She imagined them to be evil 'cultists', ready to pounce on her and commit violence at any moment. After all, this is what her superiors and the media told her about them.

In reality, the government paramilitary goon squad is whats really scary. They were the ones poised to strike and brutalize civilians at the drop of a hat.

So, according to Texas CPS, leaving these children in their homes with people who love them on the assumption that they may possibly at one time in the next 10-15 years become victims of sexual abuse, is a much worse option than putting them into Texas Foster Homes where people do NOT love them, where they will go through hell, and where the likelihood of them being sexually abused is not just a dim possibility but rather a menacing fact.

Well... if that is Texas logic, then maybe their state motto should say something more like, "Don't mess with the kids of Texas... leave that up to the State of Texas! We'll abuse them the "right" way for you."

Did you see the report today on CNN that says in a recent audit of Foster homes addresses compared to registered sex offenders there were 49 sex offenders REGISTERED as living at foster homes?

Wow... now that really makes sense. DUH!

What will happen to future children born to the flds women? Will there be an annual spring round-up or should we just sterilize all of the women and neuter all the men to keep them from breeding further?

Just listen to the LDS posters defend these polygs. No wonder they have free reign in Utah.

Only a peculiar people would advocate their children having children.

You can't help but see a common thread here...Ms. Voss keep talking about how scary and frightening the situation was seeing men every where in the compound but she ignores the fact that this is exactly how the women and children of the FLDS compound are probably seeing their surroundings as soon as armed men, uniformed officials and tanks all moved in to "take a look". Talk about scary, Ms. Voss, you don't have a clue do you? Scary is prime time TV, scary is shopping at the local mall for a dress for your teen that doesn't look like she walking the streets, scary is porn readily available on cell phones for all ages, scary is OUR world!

What the women who chose to seek safety in shelters rather than returning to the compound have to say about this. It will be very interesting to have them shed light on what is really going on, now that they aren't under the control of the men there.

It's too bad people are defending child abusers and rapists. No girl at age 13 should be raped and forced into a twisted "marriage". Girls at 13 are still children and as a society we have an obligation to protect them.

I've never been a big fan of children having children.

And I don't give a flying (blank) what any prophet, seer and revelator says about the condoning of it.

Well, all you FLDS and polygamist sympathisers have convinced me that the real dangers in this country are the laws and the constituion upon which it is founded...that it really should be okay for pedophiles to act on their urges and that teenage girls really should be taken advantage of by dirty old men, and that they really should not have any say in who they marry. You've all convinced me that society in general is totally out of line in thinking that arranged marriages between teenage girls and dirty old men is something that is sick, gross and unlawful. You've all convinced me that teenage girls can and should have babies and that it's okay for them to have no say whatsoever at all in what they want to do with their lives and that it's simply normal for dirty, old men to act on their fantasies and marry these teenagers.

You know, I have a little girl and all I wanted was for her to be loved and cared for all her life, but now I'm thinking that is just plain nuts.

Thanks for setting me straight.

I agree with a previous comment on this whole thing being Genocide. According to the UN definition posted that is exactly what it is.

The FLDS have an unprecedented golden opportunity here but they must stand up, sharpen their legal axes, claim their rights, and go after the criminals who have flagrantly disregarded the rule of law and declared war on them by committing genocide. They have the power to make sure this case will be one for the national history books.

Even if all the abuse and other buzz words are happening down there, the stupid arrogant law breaking Texas San Angelo CPS has and is playing right into the FLDS hands, thus nullifying CPS' stated goal of child safety and well being.

Oh and where are the ACLU’s and the Gerry Spence’s of the world?

Lane Meyer

This is nothing more than biased religious persecution. It represents the hostile, unwarranted
interference by the state into the rights of parents.
One posssible false allegation and 416 children
are removed from parents by guns, police and armored
cars. Is this how low we have come in this country?
These people, albeit they are not my religious views,
have a right to a peacable existance with their familial relationships protected.

Go Texas!!!

Maybe Utah and Arizona will now step up to the plate.

Despite the magnitude and scope of this particular case, does anyone lean to wards the view that if even one child even 'seems' to be in danger of 'possible' sexual or other abuse, then action must be taken to head off that possibility?

The social worker's dilemma is always whether to what the public might consider "too much" or "too little." But isn't it right for the state to offer all protection possible to every child until the cases are decided one way or another?

JAKE: What seems hasty action is due to the legal requirement to bring cases of child sexual abuse before a court within 14 days.

I agree that Voss' language is emotionally loaded, but remember that she is dealing with children who may be at risk of serious sexual assaults.

Those of us with children of our own would be happy to have someone of her mettle tasking interest in their welfare should they ever be in the invidious position of the likelihood of being married before completing puberty to someone old enough to be their grandfather.

Children need all the protection they can get to prevent them from harm.

Wondering, you are talking without the backing of substantiated evidence to support your claim. Right
now the existance of such conclusive evidence, that
13 year olds were forced to have sex, does not exist.
Your prejudice against these people is showing. Religious bigotry is the stuff Texas CPS is made of
in their over the top raid.

So the government took away hundreds of children based on a phony phone call, scary men in the doorways, and the anticipation that the children may become abused in the future.

Hoo boy.

Texas is going to get sued big time.

All this talk about kids having kids is so amazing to me. Have you looked at the teen pregnancy rate in america? what about Anna Nicole Smith and that old texas man...anyone go drag her out? of course she wasn't 15 but my best friend in Jr. high had a son at 15. Didn't have a loving father for him EVER. These people love their children. Voss is a creep. She should be jailed along with the judge. So many people seem so willing to excuse any kind of sexual behavior in this country. Have you seen all the perversion on Mardi Gras? Kids are doing this stuff too. Good grief.. What a double standard.

The government of Texas has no business taking children away from innocent parents. The government should prosecute those that have done wrong, and reunite the rest of the families.

What is being done in Texas is just religious terrorism.

The women who went to the shelters left the shelters and returned to the ranch once they realized they had been lied to by CPS when CPS told them that going to the shelters would help them get their children back sooner.

Been watching too much Nancy Grace lately?? She doesn't get her facts straight, either.

I live in San Angelo and am a member of the LDS Church. I have had numerous dealings with the CPS. They are as near the IRS as any agency. They are above the law, make their own rules and definitely have their own agenda. Walk in the alternative HS and see the number of pregnant teens, 13 to 17, it is staggering. I have yet to see the CPS attack that building with SWAT and the game wardens. This was not a random taking of children. Several agencies swarmed down on the compound and took without due process 416 children. They yanked them from their parents' arms. Allegations are one thing, proof is another. The CPS is an embarrassment and nees to be reigned in. I do not support the FLDS, but I spent 24 years defending the constitution, guaranteeing all CITIZENS their rights, not an abusal of them.

Was I the only one that picked up on the fact that not once was there any mention of any of those "menacing males FLDS" assaulting or attacking the CPS worker who felt "threatened"? Darn right I'd video tape someone raiding my home. How would you feel, as a male, watching your family being hauld off and knowing you were helpless to stop it? Why haven't we heard news reports on their take on this? We have heard from all the women but not them. Why don't we see them sitting in on the court proceedings? Where are they?

Those mothers went back to the ranch b/c CPS lied and told them if they went to the shelter they could get more visitation--sounds like a concerned mother to me... When they realized they were lied to, they returned.. No mother stayed in the shelter or fled according to recent news reports...

Maybe we should add an extra k, I am not LDS and I
believe honoring and protecting civil rights is a must in a just society. Sokol

Polygamy is a CRIME, people. It is child abuse and pedophilia. It's obvious Mormons turn a blind eye to this craziness but the rest of the planet sees it for what it truly is: brainwashed women allowing their female children to be used as sex objects by perverted old men in the name of religion. Young boys being thrown out into the street to make way for older predators. It is sick and criminal and needs to be dealt with immediately! Just becuase someone claims to have a 'revelation' and then calls himself a 'prophet' DOESN'T MAKE IT SO. I just had a revelation you should all give me your money.