Reader comments
Readers' forum: Don't vote for socialism
70 comments | Read story
One comment | 5:28 a.m. Jan. 25, 2008
Senator Clinton, and other Democrats, don't want to limit talk radio. They
just want to ensure that the slander and lies voiced by the right-wing
authoritarian commentators gets answered with the facts. (Note also that the
Democrats' proposals would also give people on the right wing the ability
to answer left-wing commentators). Sounds fair to me.
When free markets don't work | 5:35 a.m. Jan. 25, 2008
The free market is a dandy idea, but when it doesn't work -- such as when
Detroit continues to produce cars that Americans don't want due to
escalating gas prices (due to oligopolies driving oil prices from oil producing
nations)... or when electricity is produced by monopolies (such as Rocky
Mountain Power or your municipal utility) and consumers have no choice but to
take the decisions of utility executives regarding what kind of electricity
(e.g., dirty coal or expensive natural gas-powered electricity) and price your
pay... or when insurance companies pick and chose which "profitable"
customers to cover to avoid paying out medical costs -- then government has to
step in. The problem with capitalism is that it often results in a few powerful
businesses/interests that come to control critical commodities (e.g.,
Coca-Cola's control of water in some regions of India or Shell Oil's
control of oil in Nigeria) with few rewards going to locals. We're
beholden to multinational oil companies and anti-American (and
terrorist-producing) oil-rich nations because our government has done little to
change the game. Government programs to provide a safety net or create
incentives for alternative fuels is one of the few ways to enact change.
Comments continue below
GHB | 6:36 a.m. Jan. 25, 2008
Russell, I agree. I'm afraid that we are approaching the point where a
majority of citizens are willing to be sheep if they are promised all of their
needs are met by someone else. It does not matter that the someone else cannot,
and will not, meet those needs. All that matters is that the promise was made.
Half plus one of the country are willing to be sheep and all of us get sheared.
Gopherus | 6:53 a.m. Jan. 25, 2008
I agree When Free Markets Don't Work. I own a Japanese car. Why? It is
better in every way from the American counterparts. It gets better mileage, it
is safer, and it is more reliable. It drives better. It holds its value (not
that this isn't related to the other factors). It was also cheaper than
anything that met most of the same safety standards but was American (and they
didn't surpass the standards as my car does).
Those who believe that markets can control themselves (e.g. Ron Paul) without regulation are naive. They haven't looked at history and they don't understand economics. They've bought a line sold to them by Ronald Regan. The free market can regulate itself in many ways but it fails to incorporate costs that can be externalized such as pollution and harm to consumers (and non-consumers) that can be denied using lawyer more cheaply than they can be paid for. Business is not moral. Sometimes we have to regulate it both for the good of the people and the good of the economy.
Those who believe that markets can control themselves (e.g. Ron Paul) without regulation are naive. They haven't looked at history and they don't understand economics. They've bought a line sold to them by Ronald Regan. The free market can regulate itself in many ways but it fails to incorporate costs that can be externalized such as pollution and harm to consumers (and non-consumers) that can be denied using lawyer more cheaply than they can be paid for. Business is not moral. Sometimes we have to regulate it both for the good of the people and the good of the economy.
Ugga bugga | 7:01 a.m. Jan. 25, 2008
Ooh, "Socialism" gonna get ya. You use the word like you actually
know what it means. You might look at the old study of Pavlov and his dogs.
Some blowhard on the radio rings a bell and a thousand Utahns run around yelling
"socialism".
jr | 7:11 a.m. Jan. 25, 2008
socialized medicine is only for Cheney and Bush and the Utah legislature --
really makes sense but can't have the people paying the taxes getting
something for their taxes besides corrupt greedy politicians. Schools are
socialized and in Utah, you can tell it by the one size fits all mentality and
limited education about the world outside of Utah.
Pleman Wheaton | 7:26 a.m. Jan. 25, 2008
Socialism, the dirty word, is bandied about by so many who are paranoid of their
own society. It's all evil, I guess, even the socialised law enforcement,
water distribution, national defence, garbage pick up, and so on.
For many of us, a national health system makes sense. Doing things like this for the collective good is government at its' best.
For many of us, a national health system makes sense. Doing things like this for the collective good is government at its' best.
Mike | 7:44 a.m. Jan. 25, 2008
It's only 7:30 a.m. and already this thread is full of whining and
whimpering. Don't make us responsible for our own lives! Don't make
us take care of our own families! Don't make us pay our own doctor!
Don't let mean Rush and mean Sean talk on the radio because they hurt our
feelings! Don't make life so hard on us when it would be so easy for our
rich neighbor to pay for everything!
What are we, a bunch of children playing house? When are we going to be real Americans and realize that we have strong hands and strong shoulders and strong backs that can carry a lot of responsibility. When are we going to realize that WE are the rich neighbor that can and should be helping the less fortunate. When are WE going to get up out of our easy chair and do more than complain? We're already a bunch of socialized wimps that can't get our collective heads out of the public trough.
What are we, a bunch of children playing house? When are we going to be real Americans and realize that we have strong hands and strong shoulders and strong backs that can carry a lot of responsibility. When are we going to realize that WE are the rich neighbor that can and should be helping the less fortunate. When are WE going to get up out of our easy chair and do more than complain? We're already a bunch of socialized wimps that can't get our collective heads out of the public trough.
DBG | 8:04 a.m. Jan. 25, 2008
The role of government is to create a level playing field. Unfortunately, the
way our "free market" is running now does not create a level playing
field. Any changes to do so, many call it "socialism" when it really
may be just regulation into a level playing field.
Alex | 8:07 a.m. Jan. 25, 2008
Yet another letter that implies socialism being a synonym for communism.
Anonymous | 8:22 a.m. Jan. 25, 2008
I see Rush Limbaugh must be demonizing a new word.
Instead of the usual non-stop attacks on liberals - he's now focusing on socialism as the newest dirty word.
And his flakey Utah fans are eating it up.
Instead of the usual non-stop attacks on liberals - he's now focusing on socialism as the newest dirty word.
And his flakey Utah fans are eating it up.
BBKing | 8:24 a.m. Jan. 25, 2008
I think you miss the mark on free markets. The rather good comment from 5:35 AM,
the problem is that what you are describing is not free markets. Detroit pushing
products the market doesn't want is just poor planning on their part. I
would add that Ford becomes a bit of a dinosaur when their labor pool is so
unionized. They find it hard to not only keep up with the market but stay ahead.
And I haven't look into the issue but wouldn't be surprised if they
receive subsidies in many forms. Hence, not a true free market example.
And of course, power has long been a monopoly, which is not a hall mark of free markets either.
We should not confuse corporte America pushing for government subsidies and intervention and think that is "free market" or capitalism because corporate America says it is. It is the economic school of "Public Choice." It's government using the power of regulation to decide who wins.
Corporate America loves to talk about free markets but loves even more for Government to regulate. It defeats their competitors. Predatory Capitalism.
The failure of this does not mean socialism works. It never does.
And of course, power has long been a monopoly, which is not a hall mark of free markets either.
We should not confuse corporte America pushing for government subsidies and intervention and think that is "free market" or capitalism because corporate America says it is. It is the economic school of "Public Choice." It's government using the power of regulation to decide who wins.
Corporate America loves to talk about free markets but loves even more for Government to regulate. It defeats their competitors. Predatory Capitalism.
The failure of this does not mean socialism works. It never does.
We will improve on | 8:25 a.m. Jan. 25, 2008
The so-called "socialized medicine". My goodness, we have to improve!
There are nearing 50 million without health insurance and many more without
adequate insurance. This means they pay large amounts for services. We also
have many that have their claims denied for "pre-existing conditions"
or exclusions. The goal of universal coverage is for all to be able to choose
their own plan (but for the insurance companies to do away with the hurtful
"rules" that defeat the purpose of health insurance!)
Study it up and you will see that the proposals don't have much in common with "socialied medicine" except that everyone would be able to get some kind of coverage!
Study it up and you will see that the proposals don't have much in common with "socialied medicine" except that everyone would be able to get some kind of coverage!
I bet | 8:27 a.m. Jan. 25, 2008
I bet Russell expects a socialized fire department to respond to a fire at his
house.
And when those without education and those without health care turn to crime to get by, I bet Russell expects a socialized police department to keep order.
And when those without education and those without health care turn to crime to get by, I bet Russell expects a socialized police department to keep order.
fr1nk | 8:31 a.m. Jan. 25, 2008
If you want to call a single payer health care system socialism, then I am all
for it.
We have seen what wont work in health care and that is the current GREED based system.
We have seen what wont work in health care and that is the current GREED based system.
Athena | 8:31 a.m. Jan. 25, 2008
The favored quote: "Qu'ils mangent les brioches!"
Socialism is the bread, and capitalism is the cake. The people are angry because they have no bread. So let them eat cake.
Statistics from the Economist magazine shows the decline in nineteen nations of male preventable deaths in the last few years. According to these statistics, the rate of preventable deaths declined by 25% in Austria and Ireland, about 23% in Norway, 21.5% in Britain, and 21% in Australia. These were the top five. At the very foot of the list if the nineteen nations was the United States. The rate of male preventable deaths in the United States has only declined by 4% in the last few years.
Is it not ironic that people in America are so scared of socialized medicine that they can't face the facts? The nations with socialized medicine have the best health care. Out of all these 1st world countires on the list, the United States, with its CAPITALIST ideals, has the worst health care.
Please face up to reality. Socialized medicine works, but this ridiculous capitalist system does not work anywhere near as well.
Socialism is the bread, and capitalism is the cake. The people are angry because they have no bread. So let them eat cake.
Statistics from the Economist magazine shows the decline in nineteen nations of male preventable deaths in the last few years. According to these statistics, the rate of preventable deaths declined by 25% in Austria and Ireland, about 23% in Norway, 21.5% in Britain, and 21% in Australia. These were the top five. At the very foot of the list if the nineteen nations was the United States. The rate of male preventable deaths in the United States has only declined by 4% in the last few years.
Is it not ironic that people in America are so scared of socialized medicine that they can't face the facts? The nations with socialized medicine have the best health care. Out of all these 1st world countires on the list, the United States, with its CAPITALIST ideals, has the worst health care.
Please face up to reality. Socialized medicine works, but this ridiculous capitalist system does not work anywhere near as well.
Ernest T. Bass | 8:33 a.m. Jan. 25, 2008
Then let's not cash our checks the government is going to be handing out in
a few months. Even those who don't pay taxes will be getting their checks,
if that's not socialism I don't know what is.
And this brand of socialism comes straight from the repubs...go figure.
Also, what's the difference between socialism and the law of consecration? There is no difference, it provides for each indiviual to get equal shares.
And this brand of socialism comes straight from the repubs...go figure.
Also, what's the difference between socialism and the law of consecration? There is no difference, it provides for each indiviual to get equal shares.
Socialism is not dirty Word | 8:40 a.m. Jan. 25, 2008
Don't want socialism? Then you don't want the public to gurantee that
all children have the opportunity to attend school. Without which our country
would be much less prosperious. Without socialism, we wouldn't have a
socialized military to defend us all, we wouldn't have many roads, because
land owners would be able to not sell a portion of their land to build a road.
Without socialism, you wouldn't have Social Security, and many poor people
would have a very poor retirement. I could go on and on.
Socialism isn't a dirty word, it can be overdone just as capitialism can be overdone. What we need is a mix. As usual the truth lies somewhere in the center, not at either of the extremes.
Socialism isn't a dirty word, it can be overdone just as capitialism can be overdone. What we need is a mix. As usual the truth lies somewhere in the center, not at either of the extremes.
Bob | 8:56 a.m. Jan. 25, 2008
I wonder if the writer has a "Support the Troops" bumper sticker on
his car.
Socialism is what government is all about. If we were to go back to the world that conservative espouse, we would be living in a jungle where the only rule would be the survival of the fitest. It is the working together that has made civilization possible.
Socialism is what government is all about. If we were to go back to the world that conservative espouse, we would be living in a jungle where the only rule would be the survival of the fitest. It is the working together that has made civilization possible.
Elite Sec Prog | 9:02 a.m. Jan. 25, 2008
Russ my friend, just relax, kick back and enjoy life as we move toward
socialism. What could possibly be wrong with free medicine, free education,
free food and housing if you need it, free day care for your children and
eventually, hopefully free public transportation? You won't even have to
work if you don't want to. Just think it will be like having your mommy
and daddy take care of you for your whole life! I for one can't wait to be
held in the warm bosom of the government.
And as for the "Fairness Doctrine", it's high time we used something besides the free market to determine who we listen to on the radio. Hopefully, deserving progressives like Michael Moore, Ward Churchill, Al Franken, Sean Penn and Cindy Sheehan will get their own talk shows. These folks would talk some sense into the Limbaugh-brained conservatives out there.
And as for the "Fairness Doctrine", it's high time we used something besides the free market to determine who we listen to on the radio. Hopefully, deserving progressives like Michael Moore, Ward Churchill, Al Franken, Sean Penn and Cindy Sheehan will get their own talk shows. These folks would talk some sense into the Limbaugh-brained conservatives out there.
Decision | 9:11 a.m. Jan. 25, 2008
Socialized medicine-A system in which no bigwig CEO gets a hefty bonus based on
how many people were denied life-saving healthcare. A system in which you
don't worry about which hospital or doctor you go to, nor do you have to
choose between dying of cancer or paying your rent. Get real, people, America
is the last developed nation not to use such a system. Don't let the
Limbauhannities scare you with their buzzwords, we deserve better. How is a
socialized war any better than socialized healthcare?
Anonymous | 9:19 a.m. Jan. 25, 2008
Who is this "We" you are talking about, Mike?
Z | 9:53 a.m. Jan. 25, 2008
First it's the demonization of the word liberal.
Then news sources called "drive-by media"
Now we have the demonization of the word socialism.
Are the people who come up with these terms the same as those insisting French Fries now be called "Freedom Fries?"
What can you say? It's a country gone mad.
Then news sources called "drive-by media"
Now we have the demonization of the word socialism.
Are the people who come up with these terms the same as those insisting French Fries now be called "Freedom Fries?"
What can you say? It's a country gone mad.
Great Falls | 10:21 a.m. Jan. 25, 2008
I work in a hospital in Montana. We perform hundreds of operations per year on
Canadians who can afford it. They don't trust or cant wait for their
system. Believe me the Canadian health care is in a crisis!
suomynonA | 10:42 a.m. Jan. 25, 2008
For those of you who continue on a daily basis to throw out the police, fire
dept etc as the reason to take this country into complete socialism don't
understand the concept of socialism. Maybe a voucher for you to go back to
school would help you understand it better or a one-way ticket to Cuba, North
Korea, Europe or many other Socialist states to get a better understanding.
For those who have never read the Constitution, it doesn't guarantee a fair playing field, but it does guarantee the government to provide for the defense of the country.
As for the daily dribble from ETBass, the requirement to have checks go to those who don't pay taxes came from Chuck Schumer. Please get your facts straight before you make silly comments.
There are so many falsehoods presented as facts on these pages; mainly by the Rush haters.
I hope that you get more educated on the facts before you go to the polls. It's really scary that people like you have the ability to vote for such an important election as POTUS. Really scary!
For those who have never read the Constitution, it doesn't guarantee a fair playing field, but it does guarantee the government to provide for the defense of the country.
As for the daily dribble from ETBass, the requirement to have checks go to those who don't pay taxes came from Chuck Schumer. Please get your facts straight before you make silly comments.
There are so many falsehoods presented as facts on these pages; mainly by the Rush haters.
I hope that you get more educated on the facts before you go to the polls. It's really scary that people like you have the ability to vote for such an important election as POTUS. Really scary!
digum | 10:43 a.m. Jan. 25, 2008
When I see specific references to emergency services (law enforcement, fire,
ambulances, national defense) as being socialized, I know the writer does not
know what he's talking about. The Declaration of Independence states our
basic rights are life,liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. Frederic Bastiat
equated pursuit of happiness with property. We have a right to defend those
things, we also have a right to band together and hire others to defend those
things, this is where government begins. We have not surrendered the right to
defend ourselves but we now have men and woman that make it possible that we
don't have to spend all our time worrying about defending ourselves. In
the end we are paying (giving up a portion of our property) for a rendered
service.
The end result of Socialism as stated by Bastiat is "everyone attempting to live at the expense of everyone else." Is this really what we want to abdicate personal freedom/responsibility so our neighbor can have our paychecks?
In The Link narrated by Ezra Taft Benson he points out the the constitution of the USSR guaranteed bread for everyone but bread shortages were common.
The end result of Socialism as stated by Bastiat is "everyone attempting to live at the expense of everyone else." Is this really what we want to abdicate personal freedom/responsibility so our neighbor can have our paychecks?
In The Link narrated by Ezra Taft Benson he points out the the constitution of the USSR guaranteed bread for everyone but bread shortages were common.
The opressed become opressers. | 10:55 a.m. Jan. 25, 2008
I have listened to Rush and Hanity. The question I have is: what would be their
final solution to the liberal problem?
Rush feeds a market. He makes greed noble. "Liberal" has become the word of choice for those who once used the n-word as a crutch to bare the weight of their perceived victimization.
What, I find truly fascinating is Mormons and Rush. My LDS family walked to Utah. They took "Mormon" used as a pejorative and made Mormon reflect pride, determination and individualism.
It is because of my Mormon history that I find blaming liberals for being a victim to be real lame.
My history tels me life isn't fair. We all can become victims. You own others and not just ourselves. It is evil to single out any group in our nation by the use of pejoratives.
How can a person whose family joined the United Order not see that communal efforts did help establish a economic future in Utah.
Rush feeds a market. He makes greed noble. "Liberal" has become the word of choice for those who once used the n-word as a crutch to bare the weight of their perceived victimization.
What, I find truly fascinating is Mormons and Rush. My LDS family walked to Utah. They took "Mormon" used as a pejorative and made Mormon reflect pride, determination and individualism.
It is because of my Mormon history that I find blaming liberals for being a victim to be real lame.
My history tels me life isn't fair. We all can become victims. You own others and not just ourselves. It is evil to single out any group in our nation by the use of pejoratives.
How can a person whose family joined the United Order not see that communal efforts did help establish a economic future in Utah.
Anonymous | 10:57 a.m. Jan. 25, 2008
***"Don't want socialism? Then you don't want the public to
gurantee that all children have the opportunity to attend school."***
That's an interesting point. There is socialism and then there is socialism. We've had socialism long enough to know that when you start giving people things that they used to have to work for, they STOP working.
Such people, if they had to spend their own money, probably wouldn't even bother providing their kids an education. That's one of many reasons why free education is a lot different from free food, free housing, or free medical care.
***"The free market is a dandy idea, but when it doesn't work -- such as when Detroit continues to produce cars that Americans don't want due to escalating gas prices."***
I don't think the auto industry lives in free market land. They live in socialism land, where they're required to abide by the rules of onerous union contracts, which require them to give their workers bogus paid holidays, like "Election Day" and to pay lawnmowers $60 an hour.
Maybe if Detroit hadn't spent so much mowing its lawns it could've invested more in hybrid technology.
That's an interesting point. There is socialism and then there is socialism. We've had socialism long enough to know that when you start giving people things that they used to have to work for, they STOP working.
Such people, if they had to spend their own money, probably wouldn't even bother providing their kids an education. That's one of many reasons why free education is a lot different from free food, free housing, or free medical care.
***"The free market is a dandy idea, but when it doesn't work -- such as when Detroit continues to produce cars that Americans don't want due to escalating gas prices."***
I don't think the auto industry lives in free market land. They live in socialism land, where they're required to abide by the rules of onerous union contracts, which require them to give their workers bogus paid holidays, like "Election Day" and to pay lawnmowers $60 an hour.
Maybe if Detroit hadn't spent so much mowing its lawns it could've invested more in hybrid technology.
SLC Resident | 10:57 a.m. Jan. 25, 2008
Don't vote for Socialism??? Just what exactly do you think the State
Department of Alcoholic Beverage Control Stores are if not a anti-competitive,
anti-business, state-owned and run monopoly?
2 Bob... | 11:04 a.m. Jan. 25, 2008
Are you saying, having a "Support the Troups" bumper sticker is a
"Bad" thing, or reason to be mocked?
No wonder you socialists get a bad rap.
I think you are wrong if you sincerely think all Conservatives espouse "jungle rules". Be a little rational. Maybe you got caught up in the rhetoric there for awhile.
No wonder you socialists get a bad rap.
I think you are wrong if you sincerely think all Conservatives espouse "jungle rules". Be a little rational. Maybe you got caught up in the rhetoric there for awhile.
not | 11:11 a.m. Jan. 25, 2008
IT is not the conservative talk show hosts fault that nobody listens to the
left, the fairness doctrine is the exact opposite of its name. They want to
kick conservatives off the air because nobody wants to listen to the crazy
liberals, makes alot of sense doesn't it? Just like all the crazy ideas
the wacky left comes up with, give me a break.
Joe | 11:15 a.m. Jan. 25, 2008
Free markets are great but they require regulation of some sort. Otherwise,
safety, pollution, human rights, fair wages, etc. take a back seat to profits.
And as we've seen, there doesn't seem to be a limit to human greed.
Slander? | 11:19 a.m. Jan. 25, 2008
Well, I for one say it's any person's right to voice whatever
view/opinion we have. Government should not regulate what they think is right
and wrong. Doesn't that seem to have obvious consequences?
Has anyone here worked for/with government agencies? I admit several are necessary, but they are by far the most inefficient, money wasting holes I have ever seen. Anytime a function is taken over by the government, you can be sure it will be a very expensive and very inefficient option. Anytime you deal with these organizations it just confirms this.
That being said, I am always in favor of smaller government wherever possible. Some intervention is necessary, but to completely hand things over to them scares me to death. I think the government should help set things straight from time to time, but never be in charge of things (health care for example). People get on here and what the big government to take care of them; they will, but usually at a price not worth the benefit.
RE: Elite, guess what, if it made money, those guys would have a show! They are from Hollywood after all, think about it buddy...
Has anyone here worked for/with government agencies? I admit several are necessary, but they are by far the most inefficient, money wasting holes I have ever seen. Anytime a function is taken over by the government, you can be sure it will be a very expensive and very inefficient option. Anytime you deal with these organizations it just confirms this.
That being said, I am always in favor of smaller government wherever possible. Some intervention is necessary, but to completely hand things over to them scares me to death. I think the government should help set things straight from time to time, but never be in charge of things (health care for example). People get on here and what the big government to take care of them; they will, but usually at a price not worth the benefit.
RE: Elite, guess what, if it made money, those guys would have a show! They are from Hollywood after all, think about it buddy...
Alex | 11:42 a.m. Jan. 25, 2008
Do the anti-socialized heath care people believe that by instituting socialized
health care the privatized industry will disappear? Not so much. If you still
want privatized health care, then you can pay for it.
DBG | 12:20 p.m. Jan. 25, 2008
Often people are confusing "hand outs" with socialism. This isn't
the case. Handouts is legal plunder. But socialized medicine isn't legal
plunder, since everyoe contributes (whether it be directly or indirectly) and
everyone benefits. Much like fire/police and the like services.
I agree Slander that government control is inefficient. However, they need to make a more level playing ground. The other issue in healthcare are the consumers themselves. America is the least healthy and eat all the junk food. If we changed our lifestyle, then we wouldn't have nearly the health care crisis we do. It would be less than half of its cost. But Americans want a "quick fix" for everything. So alot of this is the attitude of Americans, not necessarily healthcare bigwigs.
1.Change your lifestile
2. Stop being sue-happy people (that's the number oen cost of healthcare rising)
3. Stop those that can't pay, get away without paying. Costs rise because those who don't pay get handed down to those who do pay.
Fix those three problems, which is a CONSUMER issue/responsibility, then we'd see our health care under control.
I agree Slander that government control is inefficient. However, they need to make a more level playing ground. The other issue in healthcare are the consumers themselves. America is the least healthy and eat all the junk food. If we changed our lifestyle, then we wouldn't have nearly the health care crisis we do. It would be less than half of its cost. But Americans want a "quick fix" for everything. So alot of this is the attitude of Americans, not necessarily healthcare bigwigs.
1.Change your lifestile
2. Stop being sue-happy people (that's the number oen cost of healthcare rising)
3. Stop those that can't pay, get away without paying. Costs rise because those who don't pay get handed down to those who do pay.
Fix those three problems, which is a CONSUMER issue/responsibility, then we'd see our health care under control.
Gus | 12:46 p.m. Jan. 25, 2008
Another letter from the hallowed underbelly of the looney fringe. This must be
the most humorous letter of the week that has been published in the Deseret
News! I guess the writer forgot to mention that his personal definition of
whatever he doesn't appears to be "socialism". It must be the
new buzz word of the wingnuts.
People have been over this again and again in the selective identification of what is allowable ("freedom from taxes and public responsibility" and "conservative values") and what is not allowed ("socialism" and social responsibility, public libraries, public police and fire departments, the military, etc.) What the "anti-socialist" mantra implies in their political double-speak is: "If I like it and benefit from it, it's OK regardless of the costs and who's paying the bill. If I don't benefit from it and it costs me money, it is socialism."
This is great reasoning as it simplifies everything. One gets so much pleasure from reading posts like these since you don't have the opportunity to meet these people in one's daily life! As long as you don't take it all too seriously, your mental health will certainly stay intact. <);^)
People have been over this again and again in the selective identification of what is allowable ("freedom from taxes and public responsibility" and "conservative values") and what is not allowed ("socialism" and social responsibility, public libraries, public police and fire departments, the military, etc.) What the "anti-socialist" mantra implies in their political double-speak is: "If I like it and benefit from it, it's OK regardless of the costs and who's paying the bill. If I don't benefit from it and it costs me money, it is socialism."
This is great reasoning as it simplifies everything. One gets so much pleasure from reading posts like these since you don't have the opportunity to meet these people in one's daily life! As long as you don't take it all too seriously, your mental health will certainly stay intact. <);^)
Elite Sec Prog | 12:57 p.m. Jan. 25, 2008
Athena: "Please face up to reality. Socialized medicine works, but this
ridiculous capitalist system does not work anywhere near as well."
You couldn't be more correct Athena. One feature of British socialized medicine that I particularly like is the "option" of doing self-dentistry.... you know pulling your own teeth and such when there aren't enough dentists to see you.
Do yourself a favor. Google "British Dental Patients Pull Out Own Teeth". Cheerio!
You couldn't be more correct Athena. One feature of British socialized medicine that I particularly like is the "option" of doing self-dentistry.... you know pulling your own teeth and such when there aren't enough dentists to see you.
Do yourself a favor. Google "British Dental Patients Pull Out Own Teeth". Cheerio!
GWB | 1:01 p.m. Jan. 25, 2008
I wonder how these anti-socialism people can look at themselves in the mirror
without revulsion.
They get up in the morning and shower with socialized water, flush the toilet to eliminate their waste in socialized sewers.
After sending their kids off to school on a socialized bus to the socialized school they drive on socialized roads to work, drive home on socialized roads again, check their mailbox to see if their socialized mailman brought them mail, bring in the trash can from having their waste hauled away by socialist garbage men, turn on the TV to watch the news broadcast on socialized airways, and then watch their beloved Jazz play in a sociaized Arena.
Then if their house catches fire the call the socialized fire department and hope the socialized policemen can catch the arsonist who lit the blaze.
Oh, and then in a few months, I wonder how many of them will refuse to cash the socialist check that they are getting in the socialized mail.
If I hated socialism that much I would not cash the check, I would send my kids to private school, drill a well and install private purification systems, to be continued...
They get up in the morning and shower with socialized water, flush the toilet to eliminate their waste in socialized sewers.
After sending their kids off to school on a socialized bus to the socialized school they drive on socialized roads to work, drive home on socialized roads again, check their mailbox to see if their socialized mailman brought them mail, bring in the trash can from having their waste hauled away by socialist garbage men, turn on the TV to watch the news broadcast on socialized airways, and then watch their beloved Jazz play in a sociaized Arena.
Then if their house catches fire the call the socialized fire department and hope the socialized policemen can catch the arsonist who lit the blaze.
Oh, and then in a few months, I wonder how many of them will refuse to cash the socialist check that they are getting in the socialized mail.
If I hated socialism that much I would not cash the check, I would send my kids to private school, drill a well and install private purification systems, to be continued...
GWB | 1:14 p.m. Jan. 25, 2008
have a septic system installed to eliminate their sewage, not file law suits
when their kid gets asthma from Geneva particulates in the air, hire a private
fire/security firm to guard their property, and hire a privte snow plow to clear
their roads.
The self loathing must be difficult. Maybe this is why prozac use is so high and growing.
The self loathing must be difficult. Maybe this is why prozac use is so high and growing.
suomynonA | 1:18 p.m. Jan. 25, 2008
to Elite Sec Prog....regarding your interpretation of the Fairness Doctrine, you
have your voices on radio. It's called Air America. Have you ever listened
to it? That's why it went bankrupt. You just don't have any ideas to
listen to that's why every liberal talk radio venture fails miserably.
So regarding your version, does that mean that CNN, ABC, NBC, CBS, PBS, PMSNBC will all have to have conservative voices on their broadcasts? If you think there are right now, please name 1 broadcaster who is considered conservative.
I think you need to get over it. Socialism is a failure everywhere it has been tried. A total failure. If you want to just hand your paycheck over to the government and let them take care of you then so be it.
I don't!
So regarding your version, does that mean that CNN, ABC, NBC, CBS, PBS, PMSNBC will all have to have conservative voices on their broadcasts? If you think there are right now, please name 1 broadcaster who is considered conservative.
I think you need to get over it. Socialism is a failure everywhere it has been tried. A total failure. If you want to just hand your paycheck over to the government and let them take care of you then so be it.
I don't!
Mike | 1:23 p.m. Jan. 25, 2008
Let's look at the numbers. A private company pays taxes, at least 25% of
profits to the government while a governmental agency pays no taxes. So,
let's assume that a bunch of small businesses, who barely make a profit,
pay 25% of their profits to the government, and, because they are small
businesses, they're probably sole proprietorships, just like my small
business, which means that they pay another 15% into the Social Security fund.
Let's also assume that most small businesses are more efficient than
governmental agencies (that fact is can be easily be found by Googling
government efficiency on the Internet), so, bottom line, why do we want
efficient tax paying small businesses to be replaced by governmental agencies?
Anyone, who has ever run a spreadsheet can quickly see that by replacing a tax
paying small business with a governmental agency, that overall taxes have to
increase to make up the difference.
That may be the biggest reason that reasonable people reject the idea of socialistic government. It feeds upon itself and gradually requires all available capital to self-exist.
That may be the biggest reason that reasonable people reject the idea of socialistic government. It feeds upon itself and gradually requires all available capital to self-exist.
Mark B | 1:28 p.m. Jan. 25, 2008
If our system of health care is so irreplaceable, it must be for a reason OTHER
than it "isn't socialism".
Does the US have the greatest life expectancy? NO
Does the US care cost the least? NO
Does the US lead in infant mortality? NO
Does the US system cover everyone? NO
With all these "NO"s, maybe it's time to consider something else - something more than a tax deduction for those able to pay and healthy enough to qualify.
Does the US have the greatest life expectancy? NO
Does the US care cost the least? NO
Does the US lead in infant mortality? NO
Does the US system cover everyone? NO
With all these "NO"s, maybe it's time to consider something else - something more than a tax deduction for those able to pay and healthy enough to qualify.
Elite Sec Prog | 1:30 p.m. Jan. 25, 2008
GWB: "I wonder how these anti-socialism people can look at themselves in
the mirror without revulsion."
Right you are GWB. That's another thing I like about socialist ideals..... how great it makes us progressives feel about ourselves. We are, quite frankly, a more caring group of people than those Limbaugh-heads. Nobody cares more for their planet and fellow humans than us liberals. Socialism has been such a smashing success around the world, we need to get there ASAP.
Right you are GWB. That's another thing I like about socialist ideals..... how great it makes us progressives feel about ourselves. We are, quite frankly, a more caring group of people than those Limbaugh-heads. Nobody cares more for their planet and fellow humans than us liberals. Socialism has been such a smashing success around the world, we need to get there ASAP.
Wilkey | 1:44 p.m. Jan. 25, 2008
***"Just what exactly do you think the State Department of Alcoholic
Beverage Control Stores are if not a anti-competitive, anti-business,
state-owned and run monopoly?"***
As a drinker, I can appreciate the cheaper costs that come with free market liquor sales. Drive north of the border into Idaho and you find wine sold in grocery stores, and for much better prices.
At the same time I also understand how much easier it is for teenagers to get booze from for-profit sellers. If there is reasonable proof that state liquor stores keep booze out of the hands of kids better than free-market stores, then I'm all for it. If not, let's get rid of the state stores.
As a drinker, I can appreciate the cheaper costs that come with free market liquor sales. Drive north of the border into Idaho and you find wine sold in grocery stores, and for much better prices.
At the same time I also understand how much easier it is for teenagers to get booze from for-profit sellers. If there is reasonable proof that state liquor stores keep booze out of the hands of kids better than free-market stores, then I'm all for it. If not, let's get rid of the state stores.
DBG | 2:17 p.m. Jan. 25, 2008
To Suppresed: There is a significant difference between socialism and the UO,
namely that it was voluntary. Go read Pres. Marion G Romney's talk
regardign this from 1979 General Conference talk.
To whomever brought up Bastiat: People do differ in opinions. Just because Bastiat or Benson (whom often quoted Bastiat) doesn't mean they are more correct than other. I've often foudn that Bensons Proper Role of Government be be more of a personal opinion than of anything else. Too often , the LDS in Utah read into GA's "opinions" and take it as "doctrine."
Secondly, Bastiat wasn't confronted with the problems we face today. I am willing to bet he would change his position on a feww things.
To whomever brought up Bastiat: People do differ in opinions. Just because Bastiat or Benson (whom often quoted Bastiat) doesn't mean they are more correct than other. I've often foudn that Bensons Proper Role of Government be be more of a personal opinion than of anything else. Too often , the LDS in Utah read into GA's "opinions" and take it as "doctrine."
Secondly, Bastiat wasn't confronted with the problems we face today. I am willing to bet he would change his position on a feww things.
Anonymous | 2:23 p.m. Jan. 25, 2008
"If our system of health care is so irreplaceable, it must be for a reason
OTHER than it "isn't socialism". Does the US have the greatest
life expectancy? NO. Does the US care cost the least? NO. Does the US lead in
infant mortality? NO."
Data repeatedly show that it's near impossible to disconnect healthcare stats from demography. Some populations tend to live longer than others. People of Oriental descent, no matter what country they live in, tend to live longer than those of European descent. Those of African or Hispanic descent tend to have shorter lifespans. Women of any race tend to live longer than men of their race.
These are basic stats that must be accounted for, when you consider that the US has far more Hispanics and blacks than Europe or Japan.
Cost of care is also related to how far we're willing to go. Other countries are much quicker to avoid expensive care that only prolongs life by a week or so. They're also more Spartan in their use of cutting-edge care.
Data repeatedly show that it's near impossible to disconnect healthcare stats from demography. Some populations tend to live longer than others. People of Oriental descent, no matter what country they live in, tend to live longer than those of European descent. Those of African or Hispanic descent tend to have shorter lifespans. Women of any race tend to live longer than men of their race.
These are basic stats that must be accounted for, when you consider that the US has far more Hispanics and blacks than Europe or Japan.
Cost of care is also related to how far we're willing to go. Other countries are much quicker to avoid expensive care that only prolongs life by a week or so. They're also more Spartan in their use of cutting-edge care.
Mike | 3:20 p.m. Jan. 25, 2008
Why are we arguing about specific programs instead of arguing whether the
government should supply social services? Private businesses pay taxes. Those
taxes pay for Constitutional government activities. When the government
supplies those services, no tax revenue is generated, so, everyone pays twice,
once for the program and once to make up lost revenues.
In the private sector, we have a choice of using company A or company B to handle any desired service. If we think that the President of company A is being paid too much, we can switch to company B. When the government is the only supplier of a service, we have no recourse except to vote out of office our representatives. Look at the record. Voting a representative out of office - for any reason - rarely happens. So, in effect, once the government becomes the only supplier of any service, we've lost all choice and are just out of luck if we don't like that service. Governmental services are not competitive. Try complaining to any monopoly and see how far you get before someone shows you the door.
In the private sector, we have a choice of using company A or company B to handle any desired service. If we think that the President of company A is being paid too much, we can switch to company B. When the government is the only supplier of a service, we have no recourse except to vote out of office our representatives. Look at the record. Voting a representative out of office - for any reason - rarely happens. So, in effect, once the government becomes the only supplier of any service, we've lost all choice and are just out of luck if we don't like that service. Governmental services are not competitive. Try complaining to any monopoly and see how far you get before someone shows you the door.
What would Mitt DO | 3:39 p.m. Jan. 25, 2008
I take it ALL the people that posts againist Socialized Health care will also
vote AGAINIST MITT to. ( Wishfull thinking)
What do you call his Mass plan?
It sure is not Free market and less government.
What do you call his Mass plan?
It sure is not Free market and less government.
dangerous group | 3:43 p.m. Jan. 25, 2008
Socialism (aka socialized medicine)is just another word hijacked and demonized
by the Neocons that translates to:
VOTE REPUBLICAN!
These people are clearly out-of-control and dangerous.
VOTE REPUBLICAN!
These people are clearly out-of-control and dangerous.
Add your comment
Comments are monitored. Any comments found to be abusive, offensive, off-topic, misrepresentative, more than 200 words or containing URLs will not be posted.
Words Remaining
E-mail address: For internal use only. We may want to contact you to publish your comment (not your e-mail address) in the newspaper or for a separate story idea.
- 8 killed in Kabul suicide bombing 1:38 a.m.
- Explosions rock downtown Baghdad 1:32 a.m.
- Family found dead in Calif. home 1:32 a.m.
- House GOP won't take no-tax pledge 12:18 a.m.
- Storms dumped lots of snow in Utah 12:18 a.m.
- Deputies dragged by fleeing car 12:17 a.m.
- Some charities are close to folding 12:16 a.m.
- Insurance exchange not faring well 12:16 a.m.
- Gila Valley Temple dedication set 12:16 a.m.
- Davis schedules 2 free H1N1 clinics 12:15 a.m.
- Wet spot found in Powell's home
- Sources: Josh Powell hires attorney
- Y. opponent nearly smelled roses
- D-Will treats military families to party
- MWC looks better in basketball
- Pace happy not to be noticed
- Maynor amazed by L.A. fans
- High school football: All-region teams
- Jazz will have full lineup tonight
- BYU singers compete in 'Sing Off'
- Gay-friendly curriculum phased out
145 - LDS to emphasize helping needy125
- Unga might enter NFL draft106
- BYU to wear royal blue uniforms103
- Disappearance called 'suspicious'96
- TV mom gives birth to 19th child96
- Choir, guests unwrap musical magic84
- Barkley says Boozer is big problem81
- Sources: Josh Powell hires attorney80
- Stay the course with our president79
First of all, to "20/20," how can you read newspapers and not understand...
For the latest news in the health care debate and how it affects you...
Latest comments
"Price has been problematic for proponents of the exchange who have been...
By the way: Legacy Highway was the suggested alternative to hwy 89.
..but, unfortunately, it sells papers because people want in on the gossip.
Peanuts are NOT NUTS. They are legumes, like beans are. I am allergic to tree...
Mosiah 4: 16-18: So tell me at what point did Mosiah say give of you...
Now take advantage of their size and strength and run the ball more --...
Kim Shinkoskey...I'm afraid your the one who lost his mind.
It seems to me that if Tiger is going to be about fixing his problem the...
Well said...
Spoken like someone truly out of touch with reality. You now want us to...
Advertisements
It's conservatives who have whined about the liberal media not giving fair exposure to conservative ideas. With a fairness doctrine this problem would vanish. Why are conservatives against a fairness doctrine? They like to control the media like Fuax News.