I would love to know who the "we" are constantly referred to by these type of Deseret News editorials which go against the majority of Utahns with regards to illegal immigration. While I'm sure the editors in their ivory towers enjoy blurring the difference between legal and illegal immigration, the rest of us don't buy it.

Perhaps you believe your own press, which seems to dictate obfuscation when it comes to revealing the names and legal status of many of the crimes committed by illegal aliens.

Your paper ran story after story about the questionable study conducted by the University of Utah last year which allegedly showed the illegal aliens benefit the State of Utah. Yet a more recent and better researched report published by Washington-based Center for Immigration Studies which showed illegal aliens live in poverty and use more resources than they pay in taxes was totally ignored.

Utah is currently a Mecca for illegal aliens mainly due to several policies which blatantly violate Federal immigration law with regards to in-state tuition and driving licenses. Every time an attempt is made to rectify this situation this Editorial board is quick to condemn the act and actor.

It's obvious who the "we" refers to. It's the writers of the opinion.

Also, simply because the majority believe something doesn't make it right. For example, the majority of Americans supported the Chinese Exclusion Act which targeted a specific nationality and denied them the right to immigrate. That act was immoral and those who broke it, while lawbreakers, were good people while those who supported it were immoral.

I am glad this editorial board stands up to oppose immoral laws. You probably go to Church and pretend to be a good person when in truth you are as bad as the racists who came before you who used all the same arguments you now use on every immigrant group that has come here. You would have us believe you aren't even though we know their motive was racism.

The Slovaks, the Irish, the Chinese, etc had the same said of them. Bur of course you would have us believe that their racist motives are not yours. Tell me why "they should be illegal." Don't tell me the law is the law and therefore the law should be enforced. The law is wrong and should be repealed.

Just a note folks: if you disagree with the News editorial don't complain to them. Call or email your state senator, legislator, and the governor. Today.

The folks at the News are mostly hopeless - but this next legislative session will be in an election year.

Your editorial is completely nuts. I lived in South Texas for many years and employed both legal and illegal farm workers. They were great workers who were only interested in making money and sending it back to their families in Mexico. I know more about the illegal immigartion situation than you will ever know.

What don't you understand about "illegal"? It used to be a minor problem because there were only a relative few of them. Now they are and economic disaster, a significant financial drain on the economy in several states.

Hickman's bill may not be the best one, but something has to be done to get the government's attention of the ongoing disaster. Instead of critizing Hickman's bill, why don't you use your collective intelligence(?) and come up with a better answer? It is simple and I would supply it to you, but frankly I don't think you are smart enough to understand it.

Hickman is right on target buy it, the public likes it.

Center for Immigration Studies is a right-wing racist organization. The founder is an adamant no-growth fanatic that would take away your right to have more than one child if he could find a way to do it. I'm one of the majority of Utahns who see these immigrants as hard working law-abiding citizens who have been instrumental in the recent growth of this state. They pay social security taxes that they can never reclaim, they pay income taxes and cannot file for refund of over pay, they pay sales tax, gas tax, and even property tax through their rent yet they are denied government services and attacked as criminals.

If the anti-immigrant people would get out of the house more they would find real things to worry about. Most Utahns are not so scared of brown people that they want to destroy our economy to get rid of them. Mutilating yourself to spite someone else is stupid.

Congratulations on a fine, measured editorial. This kind of thinking will move us toward productive engagement with the issues of immigration. As we celebrate the labor and energy and culture of Latino immigrants (like we've learned to do with Italian and Irish and German and Chinese immigrants), we'll flourish.

When we let the Savages and Tancredos and Dobbs and Romneys and Hickmans set us against each other, we'll produce the very things we're most afraid of.

I won't claim to be in the majority of Utahns, because I don't know how everyone else "sees" things. But I hope that the majority of Utahns aren't as confused as "Yes We" seems to be. "Yes We" talks about "immigrants" but is clearly describing illegal immigrants (paying social security that they can't reclaim, etc). I hate to break it to "Yes We" but illegal immigrants, by definition, are neither law-abiding nor citizens. And by the laws of this country, they ARE criminals.

I also don't claim that all illegal aliens are bad people. I, myself, may have followed a similar course, for the good of my family, if I had been placed in a similar situation. In some ways I see them as victims of our country's broken immigration system, which seems to embrace the "don't ask, don't tell" philosophy. But none of this means that the system shouldn't be fixed, or that our laws shouldn't be, or begin to be, enforced.

I'm tired of the blurring of the line between legal and illegal, there is a big difference. And I'm tired of anyone differentiating between legal and illegal being labeled as a racist.

The LDS Church is very pro-immigration which explains the positions that the DMN takes on immigration. With the bulk of its growth occurring in Latin America, the Church cannot afford to upset leaders down there.

If Utah became known as anti-immigrant, the Church's missionary efforts would be harmed. I don't like it, but that's the way it is folks.

This editorial is an outrage. What part of the word "illegal" does "we" not get? Illegal = crime = against the law = violates the constitutional premise of law and order. What is a country if it doesn't have a border?

I've lived in what used to be California. I've seen the holes at the border. Just wait until Utah is as overrun as California and Arizona. It is a wholesale invasion which has devastated the environment, schools, medical care and entire communities - and increased Utah's population as Californians flee their state.

As for racist - I really believe that all the smug, self-righteous "we's" out there know we are not racist. They throw out that word to silence their opposition. Those of us for border security know it is a lie and we will not be silenced nor intimidated by this false label.

The writer reveals this hometown notion that Utah is somehow morally superior to the rest of the nation, therefore our bleeding hearts need to bleed more profusely than other states. Throwing in Utah's self-righteousness does not bolster this shameful view that we need to roll out the red carpet for criminals.

Center for Immigration Studies is a LEFT-wing racist group. Population control is not a right-wing position.

Another scud fired by editor Cannon backing up his brother. Look at the past editorial opinions of this newspaper. Virtually all pro illegal immigration. If a person thinks that illegal immigrants shouldn't be here, they are now branded racist by the D-news. You are comparing apples and oranges by comparing immigrants who entered this country by legal means and those who enter illegally. There are millions of immigrants world wide from Africa, southeast Asia and hundreds of other countries in the world who place their names in a lottery to be one of 50,000 folks who are allowed to enter the country and begin naturalization. Just because Mexico shares a border with us this justifies the millions that have crossed illegally? People who come to this country on an illegal premise have no reason to be law abiding, i.e. fleeing the scene of traffic accidents, commiting crimes and running south. Your editorial is outrageous and short sighted.

Congratulations on a well-written and reasoned editorial on this issue. We need balanced immigration reform. This is a national problem and requires a national solution. State efforts, like Hickman's, waist time and detract from our common humanity.

I was looking for controversy in Hickman's ideas. I found none. They all make sense to me.

Illegals shouldn't be allowed benefits reserved for the law abiding citizenry for the same reason felons are denied such benefits--because they're not abiding by the law.

Police aren't supposed to keep law and order at the local level? Since when?

It would be good for the Deseret News' editors to explain why they want a section of society to not be held subject to current law. But, I'm not going to hold my breath waiting.

++++++++This editorial has to be one of the most blatantly anti-immigrant piece I've ever read. The people most harmed by the influx of illegal aliens are the law-abiding legal immigrants who built this country. I've met many legal immigrants who have played by the rules their entire lives, paying outrageous fees and jumping through hoops as they havigated the legal immigraiton system.

Many of them are very frustrated by special amnesties and privileges being offered to the criminals who have made a conscious decision to violate our laws. One of my friends spent 10 years converting his student visa into permanent residency.

Another family friend in California is a legal immigrant from Jamaica who owns a small grocery store. He is constantly dealing with grafitti, burgalry and street shootings all brought in by the illegal Hispanic gangs that the Deseret News is so proud of.

I've been taught my entire life that LDS people were supposed to sustain the laws of the land. Yet, the Deseret News and by extension, LDS church seem to want anarachy. Perhaps it's good for business, since the Deseret News can now report on shootings, rapes, drug busts, etc.. almost daily now.

So many folks on here suggest that by targeting their animosity toward illegal immigrants, they can evade the implications of racism and irrational fear. Not so.

Keep in mind that even if we only targeted the "illegals," who crossed the border without waiting in an immigration line that has reached a virtual standstill, we would still be shooting ourselves in the foot.

Estimates of ILLEGALS (not hispanics, illegals) suggest that if they were to all leave Utah tomorrow it would be the equivalent of 14 of Utah's 29 counties instantly having a population of zero.

How would that benefit Utah's economy?

The only racisim I've read in these forums seems to be coming from the illegal alien supporters. They're acting as if they believe Hispanics cannot possibly follow the law, and we must lower the expectations for them to overcome this defect. That's an extremly racist attitude to have towards Hispanics.

I personally believe they are every bit as capable of following the law as anybody else. All people should be treated equally under the law.

I am always amused at the ignorance of such reporters, I am offended however at their crass deceit and desire to promote the breach of the rule of law and the resultant anarchy. This is a republic and we have laws and a means to change law. If foolis reporters believe that the majority support such views then it should be easy to get the law ammended, right? Sadly they have an agenda and will lie and manipulate facts to achieve their agenda. Any LDS member who supports illegal immigration needs to actually familiarize themselves with the principles of the LDS church.

I oppose illegal immigration for the following reasons...

1: It is illegal
2: There are thousands of citizens who fall prey daily to criminal acts of illegals.
3: Social costs are transferred from employers to the taxpayer to the tune of $19000 a year per illegal family.
4: There are americans who will do the work...simply pay them a livable wage.
5: Unwillingness to assimilate
6: Mexico needs to fix their mess (Majority of illegals are Mexican0

I wish to be humane to the american people rather than to illegals as this is OUR country.

The DesNews and other ivory tower elites just LOVE to blur the line between legal and illegal aliens. I wish they would simply be honest enough to openly advocate for an open border and totally uncontrolled immigration. It is clearly what they want.

And why do they focus on hispanics? So far as I know, Hickman's bill does NOT mention ethnicity nor race at all. It focuses only on the legal status of the person in question. Of course, when one realizes the vast majority of illegal aliens are hispanic and that upwards of 50% of the hispanics in this State are illegal aliens, maybe we should start to ask about culture and how it affects a willingness to obey basic laws and rules.

Why is it so hard to understand that WE want the laws enforced; that WE want US Citizens, not foreign criminals to set US immigration policy; and that WE want the laws enforced?

I do not want socialized medicine, nor more welfare, nor ever high taxes. I do not want a national ID card. I want a secure border. And I want illegal aliens encouraged to go home, NOT pandered to.

The LDS church is not pro immigration. Show me anywhere where the church promotes this. The church's stance is clear. They call any member who does not support the laws of the land as someone who needs to repent. The church's stance on immigration is that we need to build zion where we live.

I am not sure where you get your information from but it is blatantly false.

Your editorial smacks of self interest. One of your editorial board members is Ellis Ivory the former head of Utah's biggest home builder for decades. Does his former company need workers that badly that Ellis supports illegal immigration? My bet is that this comment won't be posted.

Being opposed to illegal immigration is not "right" as posted by another writer shows his/her total lack of logic. So what is right about illegal immigration? What is wrong is that there are so many who are anarchists when there is a way to fix it. You have representatives and you have influence so get the law changed. Oh, I forgot...the majority abhor illegal immigration and so you resort to such illogical reasoning that you hope that those even less intellectually sound be influenced to support a call to anarchy.

The US is a sovereign nation and we have a constitution which made us great. I for one will uphold that great document and ensure that we maintain our sovereignty and do not allow the invading illegal hordes from changing what this nation is i.e. a land for thos ethat understand the american spirit. That spirit is self reliance, free enterprise and the rule of law with a strong belief that our rights come from God.

Illegals breach the majority of these great values.

In the 70's the church expressly forbade missionaries in California from baptizing illegal aliens. They were told to encourage them to return to their country of origin to receive the Gospel there.

Currently there seems to be discord within the leadership of the church and they seem to want to remain aloof on this issue. However, I've heard members of the legislature say that during discussions on bills that revoke rights to illegal aliens, calls come in from the church Headquarters urging that these bills go away.

Last year when the House was on the verge of repealing in-state tuition for illegals, Elder Ballard (listing his position in the church) and other community members sent out a letter to every member of the legislature asking them to vote against the bill. Just enough members of the legislature changed their mind to kill the bill.

I've heard from multiple accounts that Elder Ballard frequently holds firesides with Utah stakes, marvelling at the influx of Hispanic immigrants and how it is a wondrous fulfillment of Book of Mormon prophecy. I haven't heard any official proclamations at General Conference, but if they believe this, it's obvious why they would oppose Hickmans Bill.

I think it’s extreme hypocrisy for the DMN to call Sen. Hickman “one dimensional” when day after day we get flooded with a barrage of pro-illegal immigrant articles, and virtually never a story about the myriad and extreme costs and damages forced on U.S citizens because of illegal immigrants. Joe should rename this paper the Deseret Migrant News. Joe’s sarcastic personal attack at Sen. Hickman doesn’t help, only inflames the situation. It isn’t about race, it’s about crime.

So the Snooze thinks we should judge immigrants "individually." OK. No problem with that. I judge that the people here illegally should go home and the ones here legally should stay.

The truth is that there are too many of them to "judge individually." They'd clog up the courts for decades, and the ones who would win would be the ones with the biggest (often fake) sob stories.

12 million may seem like a lot of people to get rid of, but if we don't start the deportations and don't encourage policies that discourage them coming here and encourage them to leave (driver's licenses, in-state tuitions - i.e., Hickman's bill), then 12 million will be considered a small number 10-20 years from now.

These illegals already have their country - Mexico or wherever. We Americans have only this one. We need to look after it to enure the future for our own posterity's sake.

Re: the Ballard thing

"The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has not taken a position on HB224, church spokesman Scott Trotter said. His comment came in response to a statement issued Monday by the Alliance for Unity opposing the bill. The statement was signed by alliance member Elder M. Russell Ballard of the church's Quorum of the Twelve Apostles."

Deseret News, Feb 1, 2007

To any who find Ballard's politics offensive, I'd suggest informing your bishop, withholding tithing, or whatever you feel is best.

If you can't do that, then at least don't give any money to the United Way. They're up there every year advocating for benefits for illegals.

I don't know what "the Church's" stand on illegal immigration is. All I do know is that an alarming number of Mormon politicians seem to support open borders - Huntsman, Leavitt, and Walker all do; Bennett, Hatch, Smith (OR) and Reid do, also. Sen. Crapo of Idaho has been a mixed blessing.

The two people the Church has chosen to run its newspaper, Ivory and Cannon, are also pro-open borders.

funding for CIS was channeled through U.S. Inc, a nonprofit established and still directed by John Tanton. Whether he's left or right, he's real radical about population growth, he's also one of the cofounders of the Federation of American Immigration Reform (FAIR) which has been linked to white supremacist groups. Among the right-wing foundations that fund Center for Immigration Studies are Sarah Scaife Foundation, John M. Olin Foundation, Jaqueline Hume Foundation, Carthage Foundation, and Scaife Family Foundation.

Supporting illegal immigration is more racist and discriminatory than trying to stop it. What else would you call people who support a group of people who risk death, murder and rape coming here, and once here, live in a shadowy world of near-slavery because they can't openly negotiate for wages. Who benefits? Greedy companies, and regular citizens who like cheap landscaping and housekeeping. Also politicians (and newspaper editorial writers) who want to look compassionate and kind.

Instead of criticizing those who want to stop the flow of illegals into our country, why don't I hear these bleeding hearts support legislation to increase legal immigration limits so that they can come here legally and get paid an honest wage and live in decent conditions?

You can draw your own conclusions.

I have to admit that if I were asked by my Bishop to support illegal aliens that it would sorely test my faith. Perhaps it's because my family has a long tradition of working in the Border Patrol and ICE, enforcing immigration laws, but I just can't see myself supporting illegals in any way.

At least so far, any Bishop I've brought this issue up with agrees with me, that the church teaches members to obey the laws of whatever country they live in.

I strongly disagree with this editorial and the attempt to slander Sen. Hickman. The same thing has been done to Reps. Donnelson, Thompson, Throckmorton and others who've tried to listen to "We, the people" and end some of these ill-conceived enticements for illegals.

With an estimated 30 Million illegals in the country today, and hundreds of thousands more entering each year, the government must act swiftly to fix this situation. Illegals feel entitled to blatantly break the law and are becoming more bold through their protests.

If it continues to fester, I would not be surprised to see widespread violence and perhaps even a Civil war emerge. If needed, Americans will rise up in defense.

the "Pro-illiegal aliens" group seems to think violating our laws is ok if;

you buy gas, food, clothes and it is taxed.

you join the local church

you provide a Publican business owner with cheap labor.

you send money back to your family in Mexico

you want a better life

you work hard

The Mormon/Publicans claim to be from the "law and order party" but make exceptions for people that break the law, use our taxpayer dollars, and provide cheap labor.

I guess the Publicans have a different sense of law and order than the rest of us. A criminal is a criminal when they break the laws, not a fine upstanding citizen, oh right, they are not citizens,
even though they march for their "rights" and wave the Mexican flag.

We may need a guest worker program, but we do not need ILLEGAL ALIENS supporting Mormon/Publicans

This is the most vicious attack on a very large majority of Utahns so far by the Deseret Morning News. I would guess that at least 80% of Utahns disagree with this ridiculous opinion. The other 20% that agree would be likes of Joe Cannon, the editor of this news paper and his little brother Chris Cannon, Utah 3rd District Congressman, who has been continuously beat up over the illegal immigration issue. Others that agree sadly are many of the church leaders including those representing the ownership of this newspaper. The editor has attempted again to make this an ethnic issue by the attack on Sen Hickman, but they forget that many Hispanic citizens also agree with Sen. Hickman. Many Hispanics disapprove of illegal aliens as much as anyone else.

The DesNews would have us believe that this is all about bigotry, but that is not the case. It is about depressed wages due to the labor market being flooded by the flow of poor illegal aliens. It is also about our teenagers not being able to get part-time jobs because of the ease of hiring illegals. There are other issues, but not enough space here to list them.

As someone who sees lots of these illegal immigrants in my classroom every day, all I can say is "wow".
Some of my students are illegal yet they've grown up in the United States. They've been educated in the schools. They're good people and have the potential to go to college. And yet a lot of the posters here are telling them "you're not wanted here. Go back to where you came from." They forget that these illegal immigrants committed their crime when they were small children, and many of them cannot remember Mexico at all.
Change needs to happen. Overtaxing our cops with illegal immigrant hunts is not the way to do it. And since our entire military force is busy on some stupid war, there's no one else to round up all 12 million and send them back. Obviously, we need another solution.
There's too many dumb comments here for me to address all of them, but...
If an illegal immigrant is a criminal, are you one too if you go 67 instead of 65 on the freeway?
Some of you also get your information from weird places...out of room, but watch your sources, they may be lying.

12th article of faith says:

WE BELIEVE in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law.

Can anyone tell me if this has been re-written or "updated?"

Can anyone tell me when we Americans will FINALLY stand up to our politicians and tell them that we TIRED of being the world's police force, that we are weary of being manipulated by countries who selfishly horde their resources for the elites while we allow their citizens to keep our wages low, and, at the same time send BILLIONS back to support the very politicians who oppress their own people??

When can we say, that we want them to STOP spending in Congress, the money that we don't have...?

It seems that, FINALLY, this 'illegal' issue has gotten Americans off of their couches and they are having a voice. It is a good thing. Lets bring back our Republic.

This is one of the most presumptuous editorials I have ever read. The writer has no idea what is going through or has gone through Hickman's head regarding this matter. It's a weak premise upon which to build an opinion.

Police commanders may not want to discuss, much less respond to, the illegal alien crisis, but its magnitude for law enforcement is startling. Some examples:

• In Los Angeles, 95 percent of all outstanding warrants for homicide (which total 1,200 to 1,500) target illegal aliens. Up to two-thirds of all fugitive felony warrants (17,000) are for illegal aliens.

• A confidential California Department of Justice study reported in 1995 that 60 percent of the bloody 18th Street Gang in California is illegal (estimated membership: 20,000); police officers say the proportion is undoubtedly much greater. The gang collaborates with the Mexican Mafia, the dominant force in California prisons, on complicated drug distribution schemes, extortion, and drive-by assassinations, and is responsible for an assault or robbery every day in Los Angeles County. The gang has dramatically expanded its numbers over the last two decades by recruiting recently arrived youngsters, a vast proportion
illegal, from Central America and Mexico.

Tim J, you wanted hard evidence? This is a report from the center for immigration studies on the impact on local law enforcement. If you want to stick your head in the sand, so be it. Don't complain when you become a victim.

What is it with illegal alien supporters and their speeding analogy? It seems similar to other liberal arguments such as no one is perfect, therefore anyone who tries to teach morality is a hypocrite and must be bashed. That sort of moral relativism is creeping into our society.

I've met a lot of illegal aliens during the time I was growing up in California schools. Many of the kids from illegal families had a bad attitude, and created problems in the school

My mom drives a school bus in Cache county and runs into the same attitudes today. She finds it strange that these children emerging from trailer parks and low-income housing are wearing the most expensive clothes and have the newest phones, ipods and other gadgets, yet instead of gratitude, they express belligerence and make comments about how much they hate our country.

One year I volunteered to make phone calls to arrange gift delivery for the sub-for-santa program. I was shocked to find not gratitude but a sense of entitlement by the Spanish speaking recipients. Some of the families had actually signed up with multiple agencies to get double or triple the amount of gifts.

Some of these comments are totally astounding. Has anyone ever heard of the word "hearsay"? Non-attributable comments or quotes are worthless. The "I heard someone say", or "Someone told me" comments have no merit. Just give me the facts.

From the very first comment: "I would love to know who the "we" are constantly referred to by these type of Deseret News editorials ..."

The "we" you are asking about is the DMN's editorial board, mostly comprising of their full-time editorial writers, and input from key and senior editors. No different from any other newspaper in the free speech arena in the business of gathering news, reporting on events, and yes, writing opinions.

I find it weird when all you people say "we can't" enforce the law against the 12-15 million people who are here illegally. If we can't enforce the law aginst 12 million people, then SURELY we can't enforce it against 300 million people - and yet we do so, every single day. Those 300 million people are called "Americans."

We tell drivers you MUST have a driver's license to drive.

We tell workers you MUST pay taxes.

We tell parents you MUST send your kids to school.

We tell 18 year old men you MUST register for selective service.

We tell property owners you MUST pay property taxes.

We tell car owners you MUST get your car inspected and registered.

We tell businesses you MUST withhold taxes from your workers' paychecks.

We tell businesses that do business with the government that you MUST have an affirmative action program.

And on, and on, and on, ad infinitum.

If "we can't" enforce laws against 12 million people then we sure as heck can't enforce them against 300 million people, so let us just cancel all the laws and get rid of the government and not even bother, OK?

The post by Anonymous is accurate but sadly the views of the socialist Harry Reid is certainly not in accordance with the Mormon faith. He is a disgrace to faithful church members. In fact I know of many policies he supports that are in direct violation of church doctrine and policy.

Hatch does not support illegal immigartion but is sensitive to the effect of removing illegals on the children. We can disagree on what to do with "the children" which is a convenient call to emotions by the looney left when they certainly do not care about the children.

The rest may or may not be supportive of illegal immigration and writing to each of them does not result in any clarification.

I do not care how many of these men claim to be Mormon they are in violation of official church policy and will never get my vote.