Reader comments
DNA claims rebutted on Book of Mormon
448 comments | Read story
Anonymous | 3:33 p.m. Oct. 24, 2007
It seems to me that people must work a little harder when it comes to discerning
revelation.
Thank you guardians of truth! | 3:38 p.m. Oct. 24, 2007
My goodness.... wrote - "It is possible to get "dark skin" from
being in the sun a lot, but it's not possible to pass it on to your
children! Of course, probably over many years it is possible for a human to
adapt to the environment."
Are you talking out of both sides of your mouth?That's why there are only fair skinned(White)people that populate the earth. They only pass that trait(White) on to their children.
Yeah I know...You talk for God as to what kind of curses he can put on people(s)?
By the way...I'm glad we have so many experts on Aesop's fairy tales on this thread...Although wasn't Aesop Greek not Nephite?
Maybe that's why you're having such a hard time discerning truth from error....You spend way too much time reading fairy tales!
You're mistaking that energizing, warm, fuzzy feeling you get from DNA "experts" telling you about their fable like ideas on Jewish DNA not showing up in Indians proving the Book of Mormon false, and the energizing, warm, fuzzy feeling you get from reading Aesop's fables.
I can get a good night's sleep knowing this! Thanks!
So as far as rationalization goes your not guilty, right?
Are you talking out of both sides of your mouth?That's why there are only fair skinned(White)people that populate the earth. They only pass that trait(White) on to their children.
Yeah I know...You talk for God as to what kind of curses he can put on people(s)?
By the way...I'm glad we have so many experts on Aesop's fairy tales on this thread...Although wasn't Aesop Greek not Nephite?
Maybe that's why you're having such a hard time discerning truth from error....You spend way too much time reading fairy tales!
You're mistaking that energizing, warm, fuzzy feeling you get from DNA "experts" telling you about their fable like ideas on Jewish DNA not showing up in Indians proving the Book of Mormon false, and the energizing, warm, fuzzy feeling you get from reading Aesop's fables.
I can get a good night's sleep knowing this! Thanks!
So as far as rationalization goes your not guilty, right?
Comments continue below
Baptized and Content | 3:41 p.m. Oct. 24, 2007
I was baptised a Latter-Day Saint nearly 35 years ago.
When that occured, I was nineteen. I didn't know anything about genetics then and what I know now, could fill a very small thimble.
But this is where I come from in terms of my thoughts on the subject. As important as scientific evidence is to the relavent discussion of a topic as important as this is, it really boils down to one's testimony and relationship with God Himself.
I know all you mormon haters and other doubters will shriek and yell about a testimony and how our feelings are irrelavent when making decisions like this. Like Joe Friday used to say, just the facts maam. WellI can't compare my testimony of the Gospel of Jesus Christ with scientific facts. It never computes. But my testimony has been there for over thirty-four years and there is no denying that either.
Knowing that Jesus is the Christ and the Book of Mormon is the Word of God comes from another source
much higher than a piece of paper with its facts.
Dr. Southerton and Mr. Murphy are entitled to their facts. Members or not. Eventually our facts, willcome
fromChrist, notscience.
When that occured, I was nineteen. I didn't know anything about genetics then and what I know now, could fill a very small thimble.
But this is where I come from in terms of my thoughts on the subject. As important as scientific evidence is to the relavent discussion of a topic as important as this is, it really boils down to one's testimony and relationship with God Himself.
I know all you mormon haters and other doubters will shriek and yell about a testimony and how our feelings are irrelavent when making decisions like this. Like Joe Friday used to say, just the facts maam. WellI can't compare my testimony of the Gospel of Jesus Christ with scientific facts. It never computes. But my testimony has been there for over thirty-four years and there is no denying that either.
Knowing that Jesus is the Christ and the Book of Mormon is the Word of God comes from another source
much higher than a piece of paper with its facts.
Dr. Southerton and Mr. Murphy are entitled to their facts. Members or not. Eventually our facts, willcome
fromChrist, notscience.
Bruce Whiting | 4:02 p.m. Oct. 24, 2007
While in Mongolia in 02-03 we noted that Spencer W Kimballs statement in the
Instructor magazine was quite accurate. We noted 19 words in Navajo sound and
mean exactly the same in Mongolian. Mongolians and Navajos eat similarly, look
alike, and even act alike.
When Pres Kimball stated that he believed that some Native Americans came over the Bering Strait, [as well as from other places] I believe he was correct.
When Pres Kimball stated that he believed that some Native Americans came over the Bering Strait, [as well as from other places] I believe he was correct.
A Reason to care in Chicago | 4:11 p.m. Oct. 24, 2007
The reason you should care about a book being true is if it hinders you in your
studies of other things. I found that when I was of a certain
"mindset" nothing else mattered. Certain groups drill into the minds
of young children that something is "true" and the child may not ever
question. A child may "bare testimony" of "truth" that they
have no personal knowledge of. A missionary can do the same from the "good
feeling" of familarity of the beliefs that was "drilled" into
them from early on.
It's time to think for ourselves and study and look at the vast knowledge in the world. If we've studied hard and compared we can then make an informed decision.
It's time to think for ourselves and study and look at the vast knowledge in the world. If we've studied hard and compared we can then make an informed decision.
Anonymous | 4:13 p.m. Oct. 24, 2007
I have a great respect for His Holiness The Dalai Lama. He said this recently -
"Mankind is having a tremendous problem with the simple truth."
I believe he is right on with this observation and I might add that darker days ahead because of this.
I believe he is right on with this observation and I might add that darker days ahead because of this.
Actually | 4:21 p.m. Oct. 24, 2007
I was replying to the person that said he knew people that were "dark
skinned from the sun" and that's how the Laminites got dark skinned.
I was not saying he was correct at all. It is a fact that there are
multi-colored skinned people in the world (dark skin is actually dominent) and I
was telling him that it is ridiculous to say that the Laminites got "dark
skin" from the sun. I believe "God" created all people (white,
dark and anything in-between equally) and that skin color is genetic...not a
curse.
I wasn't rationalizing anything...I was calling the writer on his rationalization.
I wasn't rationalizing anything...I was calling the writer on his rationalization.
Mike G. | 4:21 p.m. Oct. 24, 2007
It is my belief that we are all hardwired to believe in a higher spiritual
power. Some (or I guess most) are just a little more hardwired than others.
I was born into the Church, graduated from BYU, served a mission, and married in the temple . . . but no matter how hard I tried I never received a testimony of the Book of Mormon or Joseph Smith.
I still attend Church every Sunday and even go to the temple once a month, but only to make my wife and family happy. But, coming to my own personal conclusion that the Book of Mormon and the Church are not �true�, has finally brought me real peace and happiness . . . since I was finally able to free my mind and actually dive into the search for truth and knowledge that philosophers have been on for 2,500 years.
Bottom line: if it makes you happy to believe, then believe. If you makes you happy not to believe, then don�t believe. But why waste all the time trying to convince people either way?
I was born into the Church, graduated from BYU, served a mission, and married in the temple . . . but no matter how hard I tried I never received a testimony of the Book of Mormon or Joseph Smith.
I still attend Church every Sunday and even go to the temple once a month, but only to make my wife and family happy. But, coming to my own personal conclusion that the Book of Mormon and the Church are not �true�, has finally brought me real peace and happiness . . . since I was finally able to free my mind and actually dive into the search for truth and knowledge that philosophers have been on for 2,500 years.
Bottom line: if it makes you happy to believe, then believe. If you makes you happy not to believe, then don�t believe. But why waste all the time trying to convince people either way?
People | 4:23 p.m. Oct. 24, 2007
People keep generalizing and are so absolute in there views. I believe in the
LDS church and the BOM however I don't believe what alot of the people in
the church says. People can say erroneous things. I believe in the Big Bang
theory. Science shows that the Universe is growing. That More and more stars
are formed. However this doesn't prove my religious beliefs as being
false. One tries to provide answers on how the universe was created and the
other provides why we are here in the Universe. DNA can show that there are
Asian markers in Native Americans however this doesn't disprove that my
believes that the eternal truths taught in the book are false. I don't
know how the universe works and I don't know how to do DNA analysis. But
neither of them conflict with my religious beliefs because they are there
anwsering different questions. One is asking how the other why. "Why are
we here" science says nothing. Religion "how" is this created we
have a miracle. The two aren't in conflict but are seperate quests for
knowledge. It is when you try to prove the other wrong using the other is
fallacy.
Active Doubter | 4:32 p.m. Oct. 24, 2007
For the record:
Not the title page, but the introduction to the Book of Mormon states, at the end of the second paragraph: "After thousands of years, all were destroyed except the Lamanites, and they are the principal ancestors of the American Indians."
So please - no more posts stating that the book doesn't make any connection between the American Indians and the Lamanites. You just have to read past the title page. This is in addition to numerous statements by church leaders over the years. And on the cultural side, does anyone remember the "Lamanite Generation?" Now it is "Living Legends." I know I'm not the only one who questions the timing and purpose of that name change.
Not the title page, but the introduction to the Book of Mormon states, at the end of the second paragraph: "After thousands of years, all were destroyed except the Lamanites, and they are the principal ancestors of the American Indians."
So please - no more posts stating that the book doesn't make any connection between the American Indians and the Lamanites. You just have to read past the title page. This is in addition to numerous statements by church leaders over the years. And on the cultural side, does anyone remember the "Lamanite Generation?" Now it is "Living Legends." I know I'm not the only one who questions the timing and purpose of that name change.
DNA testing isn't infallible... | 4:35 p.m. Oct. 24, 2007
We are we supposed to rely on Southerton and Murphy because they claim to be
experts on DNA and make conclusions which logic alone dictate can't be made
conclusively. What they are basically asserting is that since X is a Native
American and X doesn't have a specific DNA sequence that X cannot be
descended from Y's (who lived thousands of years ago but whose DNA
isn't in our possession) descendents. So what they are doing is comparative
DNA testing to see if there is a family link but they are doing it on a broader
scale. What we know from such tests is that they aren't 100% accurate
therefore the conclusions that they disprove the Book of Mormon cannot be made.
If I wanted to know if someone with the same name as me is somehow related these
tests don't prove or disprove that but only lead to the possibility.
Several people have commented that Gardner isn't an expert. This is very fallacious reasoning. It assumes that because Southerton and Murphy have specific training and Gardner has general training that Murphy and Southerton are better qualified to make these assertions when there is no evidence that they are qualified.
Several people have commented that Gardner isn't an expert. This is very fallacious reasoning. It assumes that because Southerton and Murphy have specific training and Gardner has general training that Murphy and Southerton are better qualified to make these assertions when there is no evidence that they are qualified.
Welcome anthiest/Agnostic | 4:38 p.m. Oct. 24, 2007
town Heathan wrote - "DNA is the least of LDS or any other
"Christian" religion.
Christians can't even prove that the Great Flood in the bible existed, so why should they be concerned about DNA?
The beauty in religion is that they can ignore physical facts while claiming everything is a miracle.
So disproving Christian or any other religion is virtually impossable due to the fact that they DON"T HAVE to provide hard evidence."
I would be concerned if we didn't get a little action from the Atheist/Agnostic crowd. Thanks for your post. At least we have everyone represented.
The "HARD EVIDENCE" is in the eye of the beholder.
Just look in the sky above and earth beneath.
In the ocean blue and the baby new.
Look inside yourself because it's there to see.
God in his infinite power majestically speaks.
10/24/2007 4:45PM RC
Before you write off Christianity and especially the LDS faith...
The evidence you scoff at is being debated on this very thread. Read it, yes pray about it. Live teachings. Then witness will come.
What better proof is there than proof you can discover about God w/in yourself.
Life w/o God is empty indeed.
Christians can't even prove that the Great Flood in the bible existed, so why should they be concerned about DNA?
The beauty in religion is that they can ignore physical facts while claiming everything is a miracle.
So disproving Christian or any other religion is virtually impossable due to the fact that they DON"T HAVE to provide hard evidence."
I would be concerned if we didn't get a little action from the Atheist/Agnostic crowd. Thanks for your post. At least we have everyone represented.
The "HARD EVIDENCE" is in the eye of the beholder.
Just look in the sky above and earth beneath.
In the ocean blue and the baby new.
Look inside yourself because it's there to see.
God in his infinite power majestically speaks.
10/24/2007 4:45PM RC
Before you write off Christianity and especially the LDS faith...
The evidence you scoff at is being debated on this very thread. Read it, yes pray about it. Live teachings. Then witness will come.
What better proof is there than proof you can discover about God w/in yourself.
Life w/o God is empty indeed.
Anonymous | 4:43 p.m. Oct. 24, 2007
It comes down to a matter of faith. No need to convince anyone one way or
another. If you are having doubts this will ad to the many doubts that are
already there. Everyone has their own experience. I believe in Science and that
is my belief system. The difference between my system and religion is that mine
is open to change based on new information.
And I have read the BOM cover to cover several times. It did not ring true to me even in the same way that the Bible did as a historical document. But that is my experience. I can not tell you that mine is the right one or yours is.
As an aside it is possible that the BOM is not a work of fiction but rather loosley based on a collection of historical documents that JS senior had from the multitude of ancient historians and travelers that visited his house. There are many witnesses to suport the possibility. Additonally Freemasonry has similar historical documents and account of Israel beliefs that may have helped fill in some of the mythology of the BOM. Most of the rituals are the same.
And I have read the BOM cover to cover several times. It did not ring true to me even in the same way that the Bible did as a historical document. But that is my experience. I can not tell you that mine is the right one or yours is.
As an aside it is possible that the BOM is not a work of fiction but rather loosley based on a collection of historical documents that JS senior had from the multitude of ancient historians and travelers that visited his house. There are many witnesses to suport the possibility. Additonally Freemasonry has similar historical documents and account of Israel beliefs that may have helped fill in some of the mythology of the BOM. Most of the rituals are the same.
Try | 4:49 p.m. Oct. 24, 2007
I think it is easier for people to not believe that is why they say I am happier
without that believe. It is a struggle to believe for some when people are
trying to destroy your beliefs. It doesn't make it any less true then
before. It is just easier. Americans these days....sheesh
feel like no one likes you | 4:49 p.m. Oct. 24, 2007
What some call anti-mormon might suprise you biblically, faithful are the wounds
of a friend but the kisses of a enemy are deceitful. Go and learn what this
means and you might find you have more friends than you believe (bible dna)
fredd | 4:50 p.m. Oct. 24, 2007
I find these posts illuminating for their content. The moderator allows a broad
range of opinion. If you read all 300 posts without concern over whether DNA
can prove or disprove heredity, you can really learn about what people believe.
Very interesting. For example, the faithful LDS seem to have fairly varying
beliefs. Are lamanites the forebears of American Indians? Using these posts by
faithfull lDS I can come up with several different points of view. As someone
who married into the LDS culture (but not faith) I really enjoy reading these.
Thanks DMN.
Why? | 4:57 p.m. Oct. 24, 2007
A Reason to care in Chicago,
How is trying to teach love, hope and charity hinder anything. Trying to tell others of the marvelous potential we all have if we but listen and obey. I know that I am a better man when I obey the truths that I have found. Some are taught by the LDS church others are taught by other religious and scientific affiliations. This doesn't hinder me at all. I obey and I have become better. I hope everyone will to. Try to emulate what we now to be good is good and doesn't hinder you. There may be "Rules" that you don't agree with that you think might hinder you in what you want to do but I have found that this is erroneous when you take a look at it from a broader viewpoint. you must have that correct viewpoint in order for you to see why we it is better. Love, live and believe in the BOM thats what I always say.
How is trying to teach love, hope and charity hinder anything. Trying to tell others of the marvelous potential we all have if we but listen and obey. I know that I am a better man when I obey the truths that I have found. Some are taught by the LDS church others are taught by other religious and scientific affiliations. This doesn't hinder me at all. I obey and I have become better. I hope everyone will to. Try to emulate what we now to be good is good and doesn't hinder you. There may be "Rules" that you don't agree with that you think might hinder you in what you want to do but I have found that this is erroneous when you take a look at it from a broader viewpoint. you must have that correct viewpoint in order for you to see why we it is better. Love, live and believe in the BOM thats what I always say.
Anonymous | 5:00 p.m. Oct. 24, 2007
"Actually - wrote - I was replying to the person that said he knew people
that were "dark skinned from the sun" and that's how the
Laminites got dark skinned. I was not saying he was correct at all. It is a fact
that there are multi-colored skinned people in the world (dark skin is actually
dominent) and I was telling him that it is ridiculous to say that the Laminites
got "dark skin" from the sun. I believe "God" created all
people (white, dark and anything in-between equally) and that skin color is
genetic...not a curse.
I wasn't rationalizing anything...I was calling the writer on his rationalization."
I gave an observation that my brother and I through different sun regimines look different as far as color of our skin!
You were the one that observed that it might be possible to pass it on.
Of course it's evident that the darker skinned people occupy the more tropical regions, and the lighter skinned people the more northerly climes
historically. That wasn't passed through the generations? A norwegian w/o any dark skinned forebears might bear dark skinned children?
"It's dominant you know!"
You admitted the possibilty, but backtracked.
I wasn't rationalizing anything...I was calling the writer on his rationalization."
I gave an observation that my brother and I through different sun regimines look different as far as color of our skin!
You were the one that observed that it might be possible to pass it on.
Of course it's evident that the darker skinned people occupy the more tropical regions, and the lighter skinned people the more northerly climes
historically. That wasn't passed through the generations? A norwegian w/o any dark skinned forebears might bear dark skinned children?
"It's dominant you know!"
You admitted the possibilty, but backtracked.
Todd Moon | 5:00 p.m. Oct. 24, 2007
Bruce Whiting it is good to hear from you. It has been many years.
Additionaly to the language simularities the Navajo's and Mongolians share the same birth markings as well.
Additionaly to the language simularities the Navajo's and Mongolians share the same birth markings as well.
We can have God | 5:17 p.m. Oct. 24, 2007
in our lives without believing any particular religion. We can find fallicies in
any of them. I have studied many and find likes and dislikes in all. The bottom
line is doing what makes you feel is good for yourself and mankind. Don't
accept anything because someone "says so"....what's good for them
may not be valid for you.
I noticed a post that said that this person goes and does things for his wife/family, but he knows it isn't true. Usually this is doing a good in the short-run. In the long-run happiness depends on honesty and helping others to see what you feel inside.
I noticed a post that said that this person goes and does things for his wife/family, but he knows it isn't true. Usually this is doing a good in the short-run. In the long-run happiness depends on honesty and helping others to see what you feel inside.
Dwight Schrute | 5:25 p.m. Oct. 24, 2007
Todd Moon, Bruce Whiting, good to hear from both of you. It has been many
moons.
Additionally to language and birth markings, the food similarities are quite striking.
Fact: The Navajo Taco and Mongolian Beef place are both located quite closely in the food court in our local mall here in Scranton.
Fact: The coincidences outweigh the evidence in all matters of religous belief.
Fact: Bears eat Beets. Neither Mongolians nor Navajos grow beets.
Additionally to language and birth markings, the food similarities are quite striking.
Fact: The Navajo Taco and Mongolian Beef place are both located quite closely in the food court in our local mall here in Scranton.
Fact: The coincidences outweigh the evidence in all matters of religous belief.
Fact: Bears eat Beets. Neither Mongolians nor Navajos grow beets.
Active doubter define it | 5:27 p.m. Oct. 24, 2007
Active Doubter wrote - "After thousands of years, all were destroyed except
the Lamanites"
After thousands of years just what did their DNA contain? Quite a mixture of Jaredite(Find me some of their DNA), Nephite(Ditto), Ishmaelite(Arab convert? Ditto?), bloods, etc.
The record also never really state that weren't any other DNA mixed in the Jaredite blood(Maybe during migration?), etc. What about after trading with the people of Hagoth? Did they intermarry with other peoples and somebody come back on a ship from where ever they went?
What about after the record closes? Other migrations DNA mingling in?
The BOM states that he leads peoples away from time to time and allows them to come to this continent. I already mentioned evidence of at least one Chinese migration. A prior post- MOngolians? The record really only deals with a small microcosym of time, place and history of 3 main migrations. Most of all it's a Readers Digest version of what happened. We don't have the Book of Lehi, and the sealed portion. The largest book is Alma, and that deals a lot with the wars, missionary work, etc..
1 Nephi preaching!
So define what Lamanite DNA should consist of exactly.
After thousands of years just what did their DNA contain? Quite a mixture of Jaredite(Find me some of their DNA), Nephite(Ditto), Ishmaelite(Arab convert? Ditto?), bloods, etc.
The record also never really state that weren't any other DNA mixed in the Jaredite blood(Maybe during migration?), etc. What about after trading with the people of Hagoth? Did they intermarry with other peoples and somebody come back on a ship from where ever they went?
What about after the record closes? Other migrations DNA mingling in?
The BOM states that he leads peoples away from time to time and allows them to come to this continent. I already mentioned evidence of at least one Chinese migration. A prior post- MOngolians? The record really only deals with a small microcosym of time, place and history of 3 main migrations. Most of all it's a Readers Digest version of what happened. We don't have the Book of Lehi, and the sealed portion. The largest book is Alma, and that deals a lot with the wars, missionary work, etc..
1 Nephi preaching!
So define what Lamanite DNA should consist of exactly.
To Anonymous | 5:34 p.m. Oct. 24, 2007
I should make it clear that I don't believe that "Lamanites" are
the Native Americans....in fact I don't believe "Laminites"
existed. I feel that this is one of the many clues in the BOM that tells me the
book is fiction.
I think Native Americans are beautiful and that they were created as they are.
I think Native Americans are beautiful and that they were created as they are.
Anonymous | 5:51 p.m. Oct. 24, 2007
To Anonymous wrote - "As an aside it is possible that the BOM is not a work
of fiction but rather loosley based on a collection of historical documents that
JS senior had from the multitude of ancient historians and travelers that
visited his house. There are many witnesses to suport the possibility.
Additonally Freemasonry has similar historical documents and account of Israel
beliefs that may have helped fill in some of the mythology of the BOM. Most of
the rituals are the same."
Well I've got an idea rather than give every rumour possible some credence why don't you try something else. Read study, pray about the book.
You see that's what the antis like to do...They don't just throw out one version, "Oh I've got you with this "one" now you poor misguided Mormon!"
They throw out a plethora of rumors, inuendo, false stories about the BOM, Joseph Smith, history of the church, etc. That way you pick out a favorite pet "theory" as to how it all began, and why it's false because of your choice.
Just read the negative posts you'll pick up at least a couple of dozen. Yours included!
Well I've got an idea rather than give every rumour possible some credence why don't you try something else. Read study, pray about the book.
You see that's what the antis like to do...They don't just throw out one version, "Oh I've got you with this "one" now you poor misguided Mormon!"
They throw out a plethora of rumors, inuendo, false stories about the BOM, Joseph Smith, history of the church, etc. That way you pick out a favorite pet "theory" as to how it all began, and why it's false because of your choice.
Just read the negative posts you'll pick up at least a couple of dozen. Yours included!
Sherwood | 6:09 p.m. Oct. 24, 2007
Active Doubter -
Why should it bother you what the introduction to the Book of Mormon states about the connection between American Indians and Lamanites. The introduction was not part of the original record, but added later. Joseph Smith and other prophets have made many statements or opinions that may not have been factually correct, but just opinion to which they are entitled to.
Now if the introduction indicated that through revelation it is revealed that every flavor of native american indian from every tribe was a decendent of Lehi, then you might have a more valid point. As it is, we can look back to the title page to find out that it indicates any errors are the errors of man.
Why should it bother you what the introduction to the Book of Mormon states about the connection between American Indians and Lamanites. The introduction was not part of the original record, but added later. Joseph Smith and other prophets have made many statements or opinions that may not have been factually correct, but just opinion to which they are entitled to.
Now if the introduction indicated that through revelation it is revealed that every flavor of native american indian from every tribe was a decendent of Lehi, then you might have a more valid point. As it is, we can look back to the title page to find out that it indicates any errors are the errors of man.
Bobby Miles Doopay | 6:15 p.m. Oct. 24, 2007
Sorta reminds me of how they rationalized the "Salamander Letter".
Hey, if you believe the church is true, quit posting...
If you think the church isn't true, quit posting...
You are both right, and neither one of you is listening to the other...
This is Bobby Miles Doopay...
Good Day.
Hey, if you believe the church is true, quit posting...
If you think the church isn't true, quit posting...
You are both right, and neither one of you is listening to the other...
This is Bobby Miles Doopay...
Good Day.
What?We can have God | 6:28 p.m. Oct. 24, 2007
We can have God wrote - "in our lives without believing any particular
religion."
While I appreciate the intent of your post...Let's all just get along.
What you're really advocating is relativism.
It is better to "agree to disagree" than it is to say there is no absolute truth.
Revelations 3:15-16 Lukewarm?
You said- "Don't accept anything because someone "says so"....what's good for them may not be valid for you.", and "I noticed a post that said that this person goes and does things for his wife/family, but he knows it isn't true. Usually this is doing a good in the short-run. In the long-run happiness depends on honesty and helping others to see what you feel inside."
Your two statements are contridictory...
Essentially, don't do what someone tells you and do what I tell you.
He doesn't believe. What are you advocating with these words? -
"Usually this is doing a good in the short-run. In the long-run happiness depends on honesty and helping others to see what you feel inside."
I'm glad to see how freely you give advice.
Are you advocating inactivity, or leaving the church or marraige?
So much for relitivism.
While I appreciate the intent of your post...Let's all just get along.
What you're really advocating is relativism.
It is better to "agree to disagree" than it is to say there is no absolute truth.
Revelations 3:15-16 Lukewarm?
You said- "Don't accept anything because someone "says so"....what's good for them may not be valid for you.", and "I noticed a post that said that this person goes and does things for his wife/family, but he knows it isn't true. Usually this is doing a good in the short-run. In the long-run happiness depends on honesty and helping others to see what you feel inside."
Your two statements are contridictory...
Essentially, don't do what someone tells you and do what I tell you.
He doesn't believe. What are you advocating with these words? -
"Usually this is doing a good in the short-run. In the long-run happiness depends on honesty and helping others to see what you feel inside."
I'm glad to see how freely you give advice.
Are you advocating inactivity, or leaving the church or marraige?
So much for relitivism.
Anonymous | 6:33 p.m. Oct. 24, 2007
Oh yeah, Lamanites. Weren't they supposed to turn "white and
delightsome" for one reason or another?
Emancipated | 6:37 p.m. Oct. 24, 2007
Dr. Thomas Murphy, a Mormon, correctly pointed out some years ago that there is
no scientific evidence that any person who did not comply with certain religious
teachings ever had their skin changed in color ('supernaturally' or
through a natural process such as evolution). 2 Nephi 5:21 states that 'the
Lord' was displeased with Laman, Lemuel, and their followers, and cursed
them with "a skin of blackness". Skin color is determined by the
amount and type of the pigment melanin, not compliance with religious rules
(ref. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skin_pigment).
Most people have confidence in scientists because their research has resulted in us gaining an understanding of so many aspects of the physical universe much, much better than the primitive, 'spiritual' perspectives of our ancestors. I have friends who are scientists. They publish their research, which is peer-reviewed so that any errors may be detected and corrected. The technology, materials, and medicine (three examples of many) that we benefit from would not exist were it not for the excellent work of scientists.
When researchers who specialize in ancient American cultures say there is no evidence supporting the BoM, I have confidence in their conclusion.
Most people have confidence in scientists because their research has resulted in us gaining an understanding of so many aspects of the physical universe much, much better than the primitive, 'spiritual' perspectives of our ancestors. I have friends who are scientists. They publish their research, which is peer-reviewed so that any errors may be detected and corrected. The technology, materials, and medicine (three examples of many) that we benefit from would not exist were it not for the excellent work of scientists.
When researchers who specialize in ancient American cultures say there is no evidence supporting the BoM, I have confidence in their conclusion.
What Really Matters? | 6:39 p.m. Oct. 24, 2007
Truth is important. People disagree about honesty and history, fact and
fiction, feelings and reality. And I think I could have looked beyond all that
if only it had been kind.
The Dali Lama has said, �kindness is my religion.� When will the Church realize that it�s not being kind. It�s not kind to label whole groups of people, �gays, feminists, and intellectuals� as �enemies� of the Church. It�s not kind to tell mothers that they are not �worthy� to watch their children get married. Hasn�t every mother earned that one basic right? (Last I checked, Christ himself, hung out with some �unworthy� characters. Would He really turn a mother away?)
It�s not kind to fire BYU professors, or to excommunicate members for simply exercising their right to free speech. How can a person stay in an organization that is so terribly unkind?
The Dali Lama has said, �kindness is my religion.� When will the Church realize that it�s not being kind. It�s not kind to label whole groups of people, �gays, feminists, and intellectuals� as �enemies� of the Church. It�s not kind to tell mothers that they are not �worthy� to watch their children get married. Hasn�t every mother earned that one basic right? (Last I checked, Christ himself, hung out with some �unworthy� characters. Would He really turn a mother away?)
It�s not kind to fire BYU professors, or to excommunicate members for simply exercising their right to free speech. How can a person stay in an organization that is so terribly unkind?
A AYALA | 6:43 p.m. Oct. 24, 2007
Weird...
Fredd | 6:45 p.m. Oct. 24, 2007
I believe in Mormongolians!!!
Post for all seasons | 6:51 p.m. Oct. 24, 2007
To- To Anonymous- wrote - "I should make it clear that I don't believe
that "Lamanites" are the Native Americans....in fact I don't
believe "Laminites" existed. I feel that this is one of the many clues
in the BOM that tells me the book is fiction.
I think Native Americans are beautiful and that they were created as they are."
As far your non-belief...That's fine...You can believe or not believe what you want.
But what clues? Your belief that they don't exist proves the BOM false!
Wow! Well all head for the revival tent Jed we've been proven false by someone's belief that the "Lamanites" don't exist.
I'll sleep better knowing that I don't have to recieve revelation for myself...I can get it off the internet from a stranger. Thanks for sharing!
What's this?
"I think Native Americans are beautiful and that they were created as they are."
Well la dee da!
What do you think you are somehow special in your love towards the "Native Americans"?
What we don't "think" the are "created" as they are?
I think Native Americans are beautiful and that they were created as they are."
As far your non-belief...That's fine...You can believe or not believe what you want.
But what clues? Your belief that they don't exist proves the BOM false!
Wow! Well all head for the revival tent Jed we've been proven false by someone's belief that the "Lamanites" don't exist.
I'll sleep better knowing that I don't have to recieve revelation for myself...I can get it off the internet from a stranger. Thanks for sharing!
What's this?
"I think Native Americans are beautiful and that they were created as they are."
Well la dee da!
What do you think you are somehow special in your love towards the "Native Americans"?
What we don't "think" the are "created" as they are?
NorthboundZax | 6:56 p.m. Oct. 24, 2007
Oooooh! what a fun discussion over Mr. Gardner's rebuttal to the fact that
DNA of Native Americans is demonstrably Asian and not Semitic. And an iron-clad
rebuttal it is, too:
Apologists have known about the problem for a long time (okay.....)
No matter how many opinions someone might have about the Book of Mormon, if the opinion is wrong, it's the opinion that's wrong and not the book," Gardner said.
I guess that seals it. The Book can't be wrong even if it is...
The false positive stuff he's touting is just an attempt to put a blanket over the DNA issue and say "nothing to see here, folks! move along!". False positives matter when trying to interpret single measurements or small sample sizes. The sample size involved here is way past teeny statistical uncertainties.
Apologists have known about the problem for a long time (okay.....)
No matter how many opinions someone might have about the Book of Mormon, if the opinion is wrong, it's the opinion that's wrong and not the book," Gardner said.
I guess that seals it. The Book can't be wrong even if it is...
The false positive stuff he's touting is just an attempt to put a blanket over the DNA issue and say "nothing to see here, folks! move along!". False positives matter when trying to interpret single measurements or small sample sizes. The sample size involved here is way past teeny statistical uncertainties.
laguna | 6:57 p.m. Oct. 24, 2007
with nearly 2/3 of LDS members not actively involved in their church and the
church currently growing at only 3%, I think that alot of people are not buying
what the church is selling.
So Cal | 6:59 p.m. Oct. 24, 2007
DNA cannot be proved in this case and should not be a factor in determining if
the BOM is true or fiction. Anyone who has a science degree already knows how
limiting DNA theories are and would'nt waste their time trying to disprove
a book. Don't any of you have better things to do with your time?
I Still Believe! | 7:02 p.m. Oct. 24, 2007
I'll make you a wager, more and more people will attempt to prove the Book
of Mormon as a fake and Joesph Smith as a fraud.
Each will become more skilled and persausive in their arguments, so much so that many will believe them. In fact, the very elect of God may even become deceived by their logic.
But everyone of these will ultimately be proven wrong. In fact, science will ultimately prove the existence of a God, as well as the varacity of the Book of Mormon.
To base your opinion that the Book of Mormon cannot be true because our current level of understanding of DNA research seems to indicate the "Lamanites" are not decendants of the Hewbrews is illogical and niave. Please see 2 Tim. 3:7
Science can no more prove that a prophet can hold back the waters of the Red Sea, withstand the heat of a great furnace, shut the mouths of lions, or even that The Savior could atone for our sins and then rise from the grave 3 days following his crucifiction.
Despite all that science cannot prove - I still believe!
Each will become more skilled and persausive in their arguments, so much so that many will believe them. In fact, the very elect of God may even become deceived by their logic.
But everyone of these will ultimately be proven wrong. In fact, science will ultimately prove the existence of a God, as well as the varacity of the Book of Mormon.
To base your opinion that the Book of Mormon cannot be true because our current level of understanding of DNA research seems to indicate the "Lamanites" are not decendants of the Hewbrews is illogical and niave. Please see 2 Tim. 3:7
Science can no more prove that a prophet can hold back the waters of the Red Sea, withstand the heat of a great furnace, shut the mouths of lions, or even that The Savior could atone for our sins and then rise from the grave 3 days following his crucifiction.
Despite all that science cannot prove - I still believe!
Science vs. BOM | 7:13 p.m. Oct. 24, 2007
You have the right to discount science. But you cannot have it both ways. You
are either for science or against it.
If you are against science, you cannot use the internet to post your precious feelings, because the internet uses science. As far as your "Book of Mormon", science was used to print and distribute it, so you must rid yourself of it's science-tinged
text. Don't drive a car, go to a doctor, live in a house or do any other thing that science has created because it isn't true.
Go live naked in a cave and freeze to death or die of a disease while knowing that you are right and science is wrong.
Science is skeptical of everything, including science itself. It's a system that, unlike religion, filters out bad ideas and gradually defines truth.
Einstein believed that science reveals the mind of God. I agree.
If you are against science, you cannot use the internet to post your precious feelings, because the internet uses science. As far as your "Book of Mormon", science was used to print and distribute it, so you must rid yourself of it's science-tinged
text. Don't drive a car, go to a doctor, live in a house or do any other thing that science has created because it isn't true.
Go live naked in a cave and freeze to death or die of a disease while knowing that you are right and science is wrong.
Science is skeptical of everything, including science itself. It's a system that, unlike religion, filters out bad ideas and gradually defines truth.
Einstein believed that science reveals the mind of God. I agree.
BOM and Stephen King | 7:20 p.m. Oct. 24, 2007
Wow! how come the poor natives have to be blamed for all the dilemas? I am
native and where I grew up in Idaho..being native i wasn't allowed to date
mormon girls by the parents..but when i go back now and see them ..I say thank
you ever so much! Then we got blamed by the mormons for mtn meadows..so I will
just stay with my own story of creation which is right here thank you and let
all you plymouth rockers fight it out over the creator..I tell my friends when
they ask me about the LDS church just to read the comments on the two papers as
it helps explain better than i ever could.I think all the in-active women are so
hot in Utah so much so that I could be JOE LAMANITE or you can call me sam,
charles ,bill but you better not call me Sioux!
Realist | 7:21 p.m. Oct. 24, 2007
If you don't read it for yourself, how will you ever know whether its true
or not?
I get it | 8:08 p.m. Oct. 24, 2007
Momons dna rebuttles the BOM
Mormon rebuttle mormons scientist
Baptist rebuttle mormons
Mormons rebuttle Baptist
and dolly loma has it all figured out
thanks, see you all kansas, I'm the one
clicking my heels!
Mormon rebuttle mormons scientist
Baptist rebuttle mormons
Mormons rebuttle Baptist
and dolly loma has it all figured out
thanks, see you all kansas, I'm the one
clicking my heels!
You're On! | 8:22 p.m. Oct. 24, 2007
I accept I Still Believe's dare for a wager. I will wager $300,000 that
during the next 15 years no genetic, archeological, or linguistic evidence
supporting what's described in The Book of Mormon (BoM) in terms of Nephite
and/or Jaredite societies will be discovered. My primary condition for this
wager are that 10 university researchers (one can be LDS) with expertise in
ancient American cultures spanning the BoM timeline confirm, in writing, that
the evidence (e.g., artifacts, genetic data) supports the historicity of the
BoM. I am willing to produce a notarized document confirming this wager.
Sounds wonderful | 8:36 p.m. Oct. 24, 2007
Ok LDS put up or...well you know
Army Guy | 9:04 p.m. Oct. 24, 2007
To You're On!
Here's a better idea. If you're so keen on backing up your position with cash, why don't you donate your $300,000 (not nearly enough for a project of this magnitude) to 10 university researchers (who need money to conduct any research at all) so they can prove your claim. At least that way you would be putting your money where your mouth is, instead of issuing some hollow, notary-backed threat.
I'd love to read what they come up with. Although, since we know money drives research, you (like others before you) might tell the researchers what they are looking for before they find it. You know, buy the results. Nah, that NEVER happens...
Here's a better idea. If you're so keen on backing up your position with cash, why don't you donate your $300,000 (not nearly enough for a project of this magnitude) to 10 university researchers (who need money to conduct any research at all) so they can prove your claim. At least that way you would be putting your money where your mouth is, instead of issuing some hollow, notary-backed threat.
I'd love to read what they come up with. Although, since we know money drives research, you (like others before you) might tell the researchers what they are looking for before they find it. You know, buy the results. Nah, that NEVER happens...
re:TG | 9:06 p.m. Oct. 24, 2007
Trying to prove science with science also makes the person of science look
ridiculous.
"If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it. (Albert Einstein, 1954, The Human Side, edited by Helen Dukas and Banesh Hoffman, Princeton University Press)"
It doesn't appear that even Einstein could rule out a higher power.
"If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it. (Albert Einstein, 1954, The Human Side, edited by Helen Dukas and Banesh Hoffman, Princeton University Press)"
It doesn't appear that even Einstein could rule out a higher power.
re:laguna | 9:32 p.m. Oct. 24, 2007
Great use of facts.
Now add sources and you have a real post.
Now add sources and you have a real post.
Cognitive Dissonance | 9:32 p.m. Oct. 24, 2007
Does anyone remember in 1967 when the Church found the papyri that Joseph Smith
used to translate the Book of Abraham? It was thought to be lost, but was
actually in the Metropolitan Museum of Art? Anyway, everyone waited with baited
breath as the papyri was sent to BYU where professors and egyptologists went to
work "finally proving that Joseph Smith was a true seer and prophet".
And then what happened?
We got some weird Hugh Nibley article about the death rituals of the Egyptians . . . the papri said nothing of Abraham!
And the Church still survived! It's called cognitive dissonance. Google it, it will be the best thing you've learned today.
We got some weird Hugh Nibley article about the death rituals of the Egyptians . . . the papri said nothing of Abraham!
And the Church still survived! It's called cognitive dissonance. Google it, it will be the best thing you've learned today.
Cognitive Dissonance | 9:37 p.m. Oct. 24, 2007
From wikipedia:
"Cognitive dissonance is a psychological term describing the uncomfortable tension that may result from having two conflicting thoughts at the same time, or from engaging in behavior that conflicts with one's beliefs, or from experiencing apparently conflicting phenomena.
"In simple terms, it can be the filtering of information that conflicts with what you already believe, in an effort to ignore that information and reinforce your beliefs.
"In detailed terms, it is the perception of incompatibility between two cognitions, where "cognition" is defined as any element of knowledge, including attitude, emotion, belief, or behavior. The theory of cognitive dissonance states that contradicting cognitions serve as a driving force that compels the mind to acquire or invent new thoughts or beliefs, or to modify existing beliefs, so as to reduce the amount of dissonance (conflict) between cognitions.
"Cognitive dissonance is a psychological term describing the uncomfortable tension that may result from having two conflicting thoughts at the same time, or from engaging in behavior that conflicts with one's beliefs, or from experiencing apparently conflicting phenomena.
"In simple terms, it can be the filtering of information that conflicts with what you already believe, in an effort to ignore that information and reinforce your beliefs.
"In detailed terms, it is the perception of incompatibility between two cognitions, where "cognition" is defined as any element of knowledge, including attitude, emotion, belief, or behavior. The theory of cognitive dissonance states that contradicting cognitions serve as a driving force that compels the mind to acquire or invent new thoughts or beliefs, or to modify existing beliefs, so as to reduce the amount of dissonance (conflict) between cognitions.
True it is | 9:45 p.m. Oct. 24, 2007
The Savior said "My sheep shall hear my voice." Just because others
don't believe the Book of Mormon, doesn't make it not true. In the
days of Columbus, it was thought by scientists that the world was much smaller
than it is. They were proven wrong. It was once thought by scientists that the
sun circled the earth. They were proven wrong. Thirty years ago scientists
warned of the "coming ice age", now it's "global
warming." And science today proclaims the big bang theory as truth. Nothing
could be more laughable, but it does eliminate God and makes it easy to justify
sin. The scriptures say we can "experiment" on God's word and
therefore prove it to be true. I have. It is.
Add your comment
Comments are monitored. Any comments found to be abusive, offensive, off-topic, misrepresentative, more than 200 words or containing URLs will not be posted.
Words Remaining
E-mail address: For internal use only. We may want to contact you to publish your comment (not your e-mail address) in the newspaper or for a separate story idea.
- Look, Tiger, we need you to man up 8:23 p.m.
- Shaun White nearly perfect in halfpipe 8:18 p.m.
- Woods to take leave from golf 8:12 p.m.
- SL Co. to consider gay protections 7:38 p.m.
- High school football: All-region teams 6:35 p.m.
- Aunt shouldn't enable drug habit 6:30 p.m.
- Dr. explains Mitchell review change 6:12 p.m.
- Stephanopoulos moves to GMA 6:09 p.m.
- DVDs include 'Stanwyck' and 'Ted' 6:07 p.m.
- Cool or hot, souls share same core 6:04 p.m.
- Letters: Global warming a lie
276 - TCU to play Boise in Fiesta Bowl207
- BYU football: Bronco weighs in on Hall195
- Palin signs books, chats with fans169
- Utah/BYU rivalry can be more civil151
- Cougars going back to Vegas150
- Andersen apologizes for Jordan hoax143
- Nude bathers cited for lewdness137
- Max Hall wants to look ahead130
- Jazz fall apart late at L.A.110
David Rankin, one of Utah's youngest and ablest astrophotographers has...
There was a time when free shipping was rare. This holiday season, you...
Can you tell I just got out of a budget meeting with Gov Gary Herbert?
Latest comments
You missed the point,I asked if it is proper or should be allowed for oeople...
The scene that Chris Hicks is talking about in "Blind Side" seems reminiscent...
The LDS church has always placed great importance on humanitarian service....
I have yet to see a gun law that criminals obey. All that these restrictive...
He is taking time off to get marriage counseling and convince his wife not to...
I never understand the complaints when a coach leaves. Haven't you ever...
a FAVOR?!?!? How is keeping the REAL best team in the country (TCU) out of...
As a Utahn, have to pull for the home state! and Go Cougars! ... Is it...
To: What about our own rights? Please give examples of how our right to...
Come on folks. The Royal Blue was great, back in 1984, and it was cute for...
Advertisements
Really?
Is that quantifiable?
Can you put it under a microscope and see it's the same?
You can't...So don't try!
I always describe it as a feeling of peace, calming(Holy ghost=Comforter) when I have the Holy Ghost with me even in times of crisis. LDS that have described it me descibe it the same way.
Hmmmmmmmmmm!
Would you know a sacred feeling if you had one?
Maybe when you go about mocking somebody else's religious beliefs, feelings and experiences maybe you can't.