Deseret News | Packing heat, no apologies

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Packing heat, no apologies

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Know What You are Doing | 11:09 a.m. Oct. 22, 2007

I am all for the freedom to bear arms. I personally will not own a gun because I don't think I could keep up with the training and responsibilty it would take to carry a gun. If you are going to excercize that right then make sure you actually know what you are doing. Take it seriously enough that you spend enough time practicing and know how to actually use the thing. More times than not your gun will be used on you unless you know what you are doing.

Al R. | 11:12 a.m. Oct. 22, 2007

I believe that everybody has the right to carry a weapon if they choose to legally. My children and wife know that I carry and they are grateful that I do. My children know that if I am around nobody will hurt them. Saying that, I've been trained in shoot, no shoot situations. I understand the huge responsibility it is to carry a weapon in public, and I believe that the vast majority of people who carry understand the responsibility. Rest assured that you've probably eaten next to a person carrying a gun in a restaurant or stood in line next to them at the store, but you were not aware of it because we are not walking around with our hands at the ready or walking around at a low ready waiting for one person to step out of line. As for bullets flying in the streets, I've been shot at several times and have never pulled my weapon, those who are trained understand that you must know your target before you engage or return fire. We are not going to start firing at random moving targets. In other words you're safe around us.

zozo | 11:24 a.m. Oct. 22, 2007

I personally just carry concealed. There is some validity to the idea that an attacker would try to take out the guy with the visible gun first. However, I think open carry is a good tool to raise public awareness.

To the people who say that they would leave the room if they saw a gun, guess what, you're surrounded by guns every day, whether you like it or not. It might do you some good to familiarize yourself with guns, so that you don't panic next time you see one.

To those who are against civilian gun ownership: It's surprising that you trust the government to have all the guns. You'd think, as a society, we would have all learned the lessons shown us by Hitler, Stalin, and Mao.

Comments continue below

CT Utahn | 11:35 a.m. Oct. 22, 2007

Utah should have gun laws like NY City - it is much safer there.

A Little Confused... | 11:38 a.m. Oct. 22, 2007

Wife of a police officer...
I'm a little confused as to where you are getting your information from. I understand that you are the "wife of a police officer" but when you start to say "You may want to get your facts straight before you go comparing the skills of a civilian to those of a police officer." I start to get a little worried. I have been trained in every aspect of law enforcement, including weapon retention, and I am just a "citizen" of this great state. I have actually trained many of our fine law enforcement officers. The majority of the members of this group, spend more time on the range, more time in a training classroom, and are better prepared to protect themselves then your average police officer. Semi-annual certifications are not what I would consider being proficient with a firearm.

KH | 11:38 a.m. Oct. 22, 2007

Why is there so much debate on this subject? This is a right protected explicitly in the Constitution!

There are more comments on this article than any of the others at this point.

I wonder if the people saying they are ashamed of Utahn's who exercise their right to bear arms (making Utah look bad, etc) are just as critical of Utahn's who insist on exercising their right of free speach, etc.

You have the right to leave the room if a licensed gun owner makes you nervous, just as you have the right to not listen to someone who is exercising their freedom of speach makes you nervous. But you should not try to harrass or belittle people for exercising that right or try to remove or deminish that right in any way. Just as you would respect any of the other rights guaranteed in the Constitution.

Just something to think about.

Gary | 11:40 a.m. Oct. 22, 2007

It is amassing to me how many people just don't get it. It has been proven time and time again that a society with less restrictive gun laws have the least crime. The more states that pass concealed carry laws the more criminals move to other places. The most crime in this country is where we have the strictest gun laws. I have carried concealed for more than 30 years. Why?
Why do you wear a seat belt? Why do you have Insurance? Why do you have fire extinguishers. Just in case! I don't like open carry but that is because I don't want to be a target, I don't want to bring attention to myself and you lose your tactical advantage.I wish more people would carry concealed.
Ever heard of a gun show being robed?

I Choose to Care | 11:44 a.m. Oct. 22, 2007

I am really concerned for all of you that are willing to sit back and wait for someone else to show up to protect yourselves. A fast response time for any agency is about 6 minutes, if you are willing to wait that long, then that is your right.... I happen to actually care what happens to my family and I am not willing to hand the responsiblity of protecting them to someone that is at least 6 min away and only shoots his gun twice a year

packingmama | 11:44 a.m. Oct. 22, 2007

For all of you against this article. Where do you get off saying we don't have training, knowledge, never been in any situation, only lived here, etc. How do you know? I was born in Cal. and raised there!(Southern. My father was chief of police, and my mother was also a cop. I have had extensive training. Including self defense!I as a woman have shot better than most men. How do you know what type of holster we carry. There are several kinds! Including ones were someone can't come up and just grab your gun. As for my kids, my daughter(not in the picture) is more educated about guns than most people. On that note, people that don't educate their kids about gun safety have a greater chance of their kids being curious and wanting to find the guns when mommy and daddy aren't around. Doctors and hospitals kill more people everyday then guns. We are also not paranoid, imitating anyone or wanting to be a hero, we are well educated people who know our rights and want to uphold and support the second amendment.

Re: Chuck | 11:49 a.m. Oct. 22, 2007

Sorry, Good Samaritan laws protect those that are trying to help their neighbors. Instead, why not become prepared to help too.

Mike | 12:00 p.m. Oct. 22, 2007

The bill of rights does speak about a militia, but it does not grant the right of arms to the militia. If you read the second admendment, its meaning is that "while it is understood that a militia is necessary to protect the nation, the individual rights of protection shall not be waived"

And if you still are not sure, how many other admendments grant rights to groups. The answer is zero. The bills of rights is for all individuals.

Being a police officer does not mean you can shoot straight or have better training as I have seen in competitions that many shooters are better than the police.

And looking for an exit when entering a room is not a bad idea, in case of fire or other emergencies. The people who do not plan ahead for emergencies are looking to become a statistic for the rest of us to read about.

Joe | 12:12 p.m. Oct. 22, 2007

Some of these guys are probably more trained than your typical police officer. Who are we to judge them? Who are we to call them wackos? They obviously carry all the time, and OH MY GOSH... They haven't killed anybody yet, they haven't had their gun stolen, they haven't caused [b]any[/b] trouble.

As for the kids getting access to their guns. Well it will be awfully hard for a kid to have an accident when daddy (or mommy) always has the gun at their side under their total control.

These are good law abiding citizens out for a meet and greet dinner... Good for them. God bless Utah.

yeah right! | 12:24 p.m. Oct. 22, 2007

there's already too many guns at sporting events only a matter of time before they go off as in church ball! Even cops flip out! Oh, I forgot a couple years back some nut had a restraining order put on him by his wife ..then was found in non-compliance ...so the whole damn town tried to protect him by declaring that he belonged to a militia!

Charlie | 12:43 p.m. Oct. 22, 2007

There are two flaws with citizens openly carrying guns. First is the inherent intimidation associated with the gun in plain view. This is why Officers wear uniforms while openly carrying guns and when in a detective role, have them concealed or right next to a badge. This open carry decision makes for an awkward situation when arguing over the bill at a restaurant and the manager see's you have a gun on your side.
The second is weapon retention. I dont care how good your holster is or if you have had weapon retention training, which I hope you have. I a "criminal" has the intent to remove that weapon from your person, they have the upper hand. How effective are you going to be with a baby in your arms? Weapon retention goes down when you have a hip holster. Personally it appears that gentleman likes the appearance.
Im all for gun ownership and concealed carry but open carry is rediculous. If the cops dont do it, why would citizens?

protected by my public servants | 12:48 p.m. Oct. 22, 2007

Why would anyone need a gun?

I am perfectly safe without one, sara brady says so, and has statistics to prove it on her web site.

I have a cell phone, with 911 on speed dial. So if there is any criminal activity, as soon as the criminal ses me dial, they run, because they know the cops are on the way.

SAD FACT | 12:52 p.m. Oct. 22, 2007

Undeniable Facts:
1. "A gun in the home increases the chance of being killed by firearms 72%"
2. "A gun in the home triples the risk of homicide"
3. "A gun in the home increases the likelihood of suicide fivefold"
I could go on, but you get the point. These are stats from legal, gun savvy people - the same ones who carry concealed or open. Does that make you nervous - it does me. You could easily substitute "any situation" for "home" in the 3 stats above and get the same results. The simple action of slightly moving your index finger, leads to more often regrettable consequences, then to life-saving ones. I agree with an earlier post - these people suffer from Inferority Complex Syndrom, and I don't me or any loved ones around when they decide to prove something to somebody.

Gag | 12:51 p.m. Oct. 22, 2007

Food for thought: During the Trolley Square shootings, the off-duty police officer had to repeatedly try to identify himself to the uniformed policemen so they wouldn't think he was involved in the shootings and shoot him. If you're carrying a weapon in public and choose to take out somebody YOU decide is a threat, what do you think the reaction of the police will be when they arrive? You can't yell that you're an off-duty cop. You might just find yourself a target too.

Jay | 12:55 p.m. Oct. 22, 2007

I don't own a handgun. But I'd feel safer being in a public place with these people. In my mind, the chance of a violent crime taking place will have gone down dramatically. Those with criminal intent tend to seek out easier, less-risky targets.

Nellie | 12:56 p.m. Oct. 22, 2007

This situation is terrifying. I grew up in a home with guns and was taught a proper respect for them and their power. My father, a WWII vet, was a crack shot and taught all his children how to handle guns. I feel sure he (and many people like him) would be astounded at the irresponsiblity and paranoia of the people presented in this article. We should NEVER take the power of a gun lightly and when not in use they should be carefully locked up.

Other writers have mentioned the Trolley Square situation, siting it in support of gun carrying. The police officer who followed and eventually stopped the perpetrator was off duty and out of uniform at the time. It wouldn't take much imagination to think of some armed 'good citizen' making inaccurate assumptions over who was and was not a 'bad guy'. Many more innocent people could be harmed or killed if these extremist views continue.

Carl in Chicago | 1:00 p.m. Oct. 22, 2007

I try to respect everyone, but sometimes I say things that people might not like or agree with. Should I shut up because you don't like what I say? No, because I have a right to say what I think.

Those people are perfectly withing their rights to do what they do. Should they not do so because you don't like what they do? No. Here in Chicago, guns are explicitly restricted and handguns completely forbidden. Yet thugs with illegal guns and other weapons run around, doing whatever they want, with no one to oppose them. The police don't oppose them...they can't because of certain policital issues.

I support those folks that carry the means to defend themselves, and others, where it's legal. I support making more places legal to do so. It's perfectly within their right to keep and bear arms how they see fit. It's perfectly within my rights too, here in Chicago. Except that excersising my rights hwere will land me in jail. Unaccptable.

And to "what about the militia" comments...yes, I'm quite sure those folks would answer the milita call if given.

It's called FREEDOM, people. Embrace it.

BoBB | 1:13 p.m. Oct. 22, 2007

Exellent.Citizens that choose NOT to be victims.

The only unfortunate thing here is that even the antigunner sheeple standing around them that cut them them down with snide remarks will beneift from their open carry of weapons abd most of them are'nt smart enough to even realize it.

Something to prove? | 1:21 p.m. Oct. 22, 2007

SAD FACT.....

This one thing that everyone seems to resort to is that they think we have something to "prove something" I don't have anything to prove. I know for a fact that if I am confronted and my life is threatened, I am trained, ready, able, and willing to neutralize the threat.

I bet most of you lock your doors when you go to sleep at night.... Why? To protect your families? you really think that locking the door is going to make you safe? Why not take it one step further and prepare yourselve for what can and will make it past your front door? I am embarrassed at how many of you adults are afraid of an inanimate object that is only dangerous in the hands of someone that intends to do harm to you or your family. Sad time we live in.

packingmama | 1:44 p.m. Oct. 22, 2007

(Sad Fact), were did you get your stats from? Thats fine if that is your opinion, but I have never heard of that before! Show me were that is fact because I would be interested in seeing that. More gun control equals more crime, less gun control equals less crime.

Amazed in VA! | 1:55 p.m. Oct. 22, 2007

And I thought we had some uneducated anti-gun folks in Virginia.......until I read some of these comments! You fine Utah open carriers...keep up the good work!!
Here are some of my favorites:
Sherrif? is scared of anyone who walks into a room, assesses the situation, and looks for the nearest exit. Sheriff?, you shouldn't be scared of him, you should try to be more like him!!
Mark owns a gun, says we live in a free country, but then refers to carrying a gun as a priveledge (only if one can show justification (what happened to the free country Mark?)
Roscoe says that carrying a gun openly increases one's odds of a violent encounter - care do cite any references Roscoe?
My personal favorite -"A" says "people who go around sporting a gun are more of a PROBLEM to law enforement then a deterrent to crime". How so Mark...any specific examples to reference?

Carrier | 2:02 p.m. Oct. 22, 2007

Good for them... I'm glad they carry... I carry and spend plenty of time learning how to use it... I wish more RESPONSIBLE americans would carry... The framers of the constitution understood this special right and I for one am greatful for it...

David | 2:02 p.m. Oct. 22, 2007

I open carry every day for my own safety. I realize that I should take responsibility for my own safety rather than hope I don't ever need to protect myself. The mentality that says you should rely the police rather than being responsible for your own safety is the same mentality as sitting your couch and collecting welfare rather than working a job. What has happened to the America where we took care of ourselves rather than waiting for a government agency to watch out for us? We are Americans, let's act like it.

38Special | 2:06 p.m. Oct. 22, 2007

It is clear that it is not the Mormon Church that controls politics in the state of Utahï¿½it is the gun lobby that does.

How else does a state that claims a high population of God-fearing residents produce so many ï¿½people-fearingï¿½ ones?

The support for this gun-toting group is misguided.

Lemar | 2:07 p.m. Oct. 22, 2007

Your facts ARE deniable. Dr. Edgar Suter has pointed out that studies which make such claims are flawed because they fail to consider the number of lives saved by guns. That is, such claims ignore the vast number of non-lethal defensive uses with firearms. Dr. Edgar A. Suter, "Guns in the Medical Literature -- A Failure of Peer Review," The Journal of the Medical Association of Georgia, vol. 83, (March 1994):136.

Criminologists, such as Dr. Gary Kleck and Dr. Marc Gertz, have found that citizens use firearms as often as 2.4 million times every year in self-defense. In over 90% of these defensive uses, citizens merely brandish their gun or fire a warning shot to scare off the attacker.

(BTW, Dr. Kleck is a member of the ACLU, Amnesty International USA, and Common Cause. He is not and has never been a member of or contributor to any advocacy group on either side of the gun control debate.)

fisher | 2:07 p.m. Oct. 22, 2007

A concealed carry permit is nothing more than the government regulating how you wear your clothes while you are armed. If you want to wear a jacket or long shirt over your firearm, in most states you need government permission. Fortunately, a growing number of people are begining to realize that their right to bear arms, in most parts of the country, is not entirely dependent on upon that permission. Alaska and Vermont are both aware that they have no authority to tell people how they may wear their clothes while armed, and many more will follow as people continue to learn more about their rights.

NSL | 2:10 p.m. Oct. 22, 2007

To "anonymous" who asks if Billy the Kid has two pistols, one on each hip... Where have you been the last 15 years? He has a pistol on his right hip, and on his left hip is a CELLPHONE. You know, one of them devices that people who don't carry guns use to summon those who do carry guns (hint: the police) when bad things happen?

To SAD FACT | 2:14 p.m. Oct. 22, 2007

Here's an "undeniable" fact of my own:

95% of unsourced "facts" are made up

Unless you can point to a credible source for your facts, why should I give any more credence to your so-called facts than someone else's emotional plea?

AZ is the same way | 2:22 p.m. Oct. 22, 2007

Utah is not the only state where it is allowed to openly carry a gun. In some towns in Arizona you can also see people with guns on their hips. You only need a permit to have a concealed weapon, but many people confuse this fact and so we are not used to seeing people with guns anymore. Just a few years ago it was very common to see a pick-up with a gun rack in Salt Lake.

saddened | 2:35 p.m. Oct. 22, 2007

It does not matter how trained these people are. Not everyone is or will be. would you be willing to argue with or disagree with these people when they have a gun in plain site? These people are paranoid. What does that teach children watching? The world is far safer than that news you watch. I am glad I don't live in Utah.

The constitutional right to a gun has been so abused it's not even funny. We live in a completely different time than during the British. Thomas Jefferson is turning in his grave...

Steve | 2:35 p.m. Oct. 22, 2007

Dear Disagree (8:34 a.m. Oct. 22, 2007)
Have you lived in Jamaica? A man I know did. He said that only the military and police are allowed to have guns? Of course the only other group that has guns are the criminals.

Dear CT Utahn, where did you get you statistics on safe places?

Try googling "safest states" - I didn't find any web sites that rate New York to be as safe as Utah.

Dear Anonymous(8:58 a.m. Oct. 22, 2007)
The next time you have that thought (How easy it would be to take a gun off an unsuspecting cop.) you should volunteer for a demonstration on how he/she reacts to the person who tries to take it. Without asking them, just try to put your hand it.
NOTE: Be sure you're wearing something that you don't mind if it comes in contact with the ground.

Come to think of it, why don't all of you people who don't like citizens carrying guns move to Jamaica. If you could please arrange to take the criminals from here with you, the rest of us would really appreciate it. We could all be happier (you, us and the criminals).

saddened | 2:39 p.m. Oct. 22, 2007

If someone wants to kill you, they will. Having a gun is only going to ensure that more people get hurt. Having a shootout in your home, while you are half asleep sounds real safe for the family.

I'd rather let him or her take my TV, rather than have a family member or even the criminal dead.

Brian | 2:42 p.m. Oct. 22, 2007

If you are scared of guns...don't own one. Please feel free to post a "No guns in this house" sign on your front door. Then you will get to experience first hand how a 6 minute police response time can seem like eternity when you have no effective means of self defense.

Cory Seegmiller | 2:45 p.m. Oct. 22, 2007

The only thing that those that choose to open carry prove is that we still live in the most free and just society on the face of the planet. Heaven gave us rights, and we must uphold them.

Isn't it terrific that we have citizens, who are willing to take responsibility for themselves, living all around us? That just means that there is less work for our government to do on their behalf. Marvelous! We should all work toward such wonderful self-reliance. It'll make all of us that much more safe and free.

Freedom isn't license, it is responsibility. Those mentioned in this article seem to be taking full responsibility for themselves, and ought to be congradulated in a society that is so willing to continuously pass the buck.

I am grateful to say that I am a responsible firearms owner. I have a concealed carry permit, but do not choose to open carry--while respecting my neighbor's right to do so.

I agree--a right unexercised is soon lost. Work that 2nd Amendment muscle and it will never become weak. All of our other rights depend on it being strong and vibrant. May Providence bless our open carry friends.

Mike Stollenwerk | 2:52 p.m. Oct. 22, 2007

Utah has some of the strictest gun laws in the United States. For starters, unlike most states, in Utha, unless you hold a concealed handgun permit, it is unlawful to openly carry a loaded handgun. Further, unlike a bare majority of states, and all of Utah's neighbors, it is unlawful to carry a loaded handgun without a concealed handgun permit even in your own VEHICLE!

Utah needs to reform it's strict gun control laws ASAP.

Mike Stollenwerk
co-founder
OpenCarry.org

Tommy ORourke | 3:25 p.m. Oct. 22, 2007

GREAT!!! Self defense is a right which has pre-existed government.

Too bad those un-armed good young people in Newark were denied their civil right to self defense by racist and apethetic NJ politicians with it's current "may issue" for concealed carry = never issue, especially to law abiding Blacks and Latinos.

In LA, NYC and DC it is the same racist "may issue" old south oppression approach. The federal government needs to step in on these civil right violations and make "shall issue" the law of the land, coast to coast.

Anti-Federalist | 3:28 p.m. Oct. 22, 2007

saddened:
The constitutional right to a gun has been so abused it's not even funny. We live in a completely different time than during the British. Thomas Jefferson is turning in his grave...
Like your freedom of speech, or secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures

Anti-Federalist | 3:30 p.m. Oct. 22, 2007

"A well-educated electorate, being necessary to the continuance of a free state, the right of the people to keep and read books shall not be infringed."
Is this hard to understand? Then why does it get unintelligible to some people when 5 little words are changed?

Canuck | 3:36 p.m. Oct. 22, 2007

Someone said ..."more gun control means more crime, less gun control, less crime."

I'm not here to argue whether that is right or not, but I am from Canada. We have a very strict gun control, and I can tell you that violent crime involving guns, is very low. Yes it happens, but not to the extent it does in Utah, or in other states.

If I saw someone carrying a gun in a mall, I would leave wherever they were immediately.

FACTS | 3:41 p.m. Oct. 22, 2007

This year, more people will be killed by guns than will read a book.

Look to your left and then to your right. One of those people will die from a gun wound.

Are these facts scaring you? They should.

This year, more children will gain pleasure from shooting a toy gun (or play a shooting video game) than will exercise.

This year, more kids will fire a weapon than will eat broccoli.

Think about it.

mel | 3:47 p.m. Oct. 22, 2007

I am a bit insulted by the comments that if someone chooses not to carry a gun that they don't care as much about their family. I work in the medical field and have seen people killed from "accidents". One death is too many. I love my family and will protect them with my life but I will never carry a gun. I feel a gun gives someone a false sense of security.

Response to FACTS | 4:03 p.m. Oct. 22, 2007

HAHAHA are you serious? 50% of the people around us are going to die from a gun wound?

YOUR FACTS ARE LAUGHABLE.

Pether S. Jensen | 4:08 p.m. Oct. 22, 2007

Mel,
I respect your decision NOT to carry.

But I cannot afford to wait 5-6 min for an Officeer to arrive.
About 2 weeks ago I called in a Shots fired outside my House @ 11:40 on Sunday Night, to the West Valley P.D. And guess HOW long they took...............Between 7-8 Min.

Not on my watch am I NOT carrying.

I will ALWAYS respect YOUR Right NOT to Carry if you Choose NOT to.

Anonymous | 4:28 p.m. Oct. 22, 2007

If there was no guns, people always say there would be no crime. But what about knives (as UK & Ireland has learned). If we get rid of all knives, then we need to worry about the government (see Germany in the 1930, Monks in Burma, etc)

opencarry is for the weakminded | 4:37 p.m. Oct. 22, 2007

I thought this headline from the opencarry.org website was telling: "Utah Deseret Morning News covers OCDO meetup big time! Antis dominating comments, time to blast 'em!!!"

If you, like myself, favor gun control; watch your back because OCDO members will "blast" you away.

Mike Stollenwork, your organization has been accused of abusing open carry laws. Essentially members of your organization openly carry firearms in order to bully and indimidate those around you as opposed to engaging in more thoughtful public debate. Doesn't this quote from your website prove your critics' point?

Tim from Nebraska | 4:39 p.m. Oct. 22, 2007

We recently enacted a CCW law here in Nebraska. The argument from those opposed was predictable. We were told repeatedly to "open carry" if we just have to carry a gun.

Now I'm finding here that open carry will make the sky fall too.

I had no idea that guns had that kind of power. :)

Guns + Mall = Disaster | 4:45 p.m. Oct. 22, 2007

I hope I don't accidentially startle some trigger-happy idiot member of opencarry someday.

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