Deseret News | Reader comments: Packing heat, no apologies

Reader comments
Packing heat, no apologies

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Greta | 3:40 a.m. Oct. 22, 2007

God bless their kids. American kids are 16 times more likely to be murdered with a gun, 11 times more likely to commit suicide with a gun, and nine times more likely to die from a firearm accident than children in 25 other industrialized countries COMBINED. And for every child killed with a gun, four are wounded. (CDC stats) I'd wager that most of those guns were legally purchased... by a parent.
I don't want to be in the same room with anyone carrying a gun. If I see an openly carried gun in a public place, I will leave. Just because they have a permit doesn't mean they're not one of the crazies they're afraid of.
Besides, to always be on the alert for other people's wrong-doing has a "seek and ye shall find" air to it. And I don't want to be caught in the crossfire when the people with the weapons find each other.

Unbelievable | 5:12 a.m. Oct. 22, 2007

Unbelievable. That's all I can say. What an embarrassment to the state. No wonder the rest of the country thinks Utah is so backward. It's interesting that each of the participants talks about protecting families as though threat of violence equals safety. I am generally for gun rights (I own two shotguns and a .45), but this I am afraid is a false sense of safety. I think most are in favor of concealed weapons or the castle doctrine of protecting your home, but this group takes it to an extreme. If these people feel threatened in Provo, imagine the lengths they will go to "defend" themselves in a bigger city. Their actions seem selfish and indefensibly egotistical. They put everyone else around them in danger, not to mention the effect on their children and the unnerving feeling I would have around any of them.

Respect | 5:37 a.m. Oct. 22, 2007

Growing up in the liberal bay area I was taught to fear guns. I admire these people. And while I don't own a gun and would probably be one of the last to carry one, these people serve a purpose.

Comments continue below

Bob G | 5:41 a.m. Oct. 22, 2007

The open carry should be practiced more but weapon handling should be tempered with training and gun familiarization. Children should also be trained and taught to handle and respect the gun. Their curiosity and not knowing what the gun can do is why so many children injure themselves handling them. Let them shoot a gun at targets so that the curiosity and danger is minimized. They need to learn about guns and how to respect them. Hiding them and critizing others owning guns only reinforces the curisoity of children and results in many tragedies. Children should be educated about guns and how to use them, not turn them in to an object of fear and disrespect. By educating them and their parents we could return to a society of safety and security on our streets and in our homes. An armed American is a safer America. We don't send our soldiers in to battle without a weapon and the American people are faced with armed criminals and gangs on the home front and must rely on an armed self defense. Bravery is not a lifestyle, its a selfless act of saving a friend.

Tacomatose | 5:50 a.m. Oct. 22, 2007

Great story!! More citizens should take advantage of the right to protect themselves, their families, and those around them. You can't carry a police officer on our hip, so why not prepare yourselves and carry a gun. Keep up the good work, and keep it safe.

ex-marine | 5:56 a.m. Oct. 22, 2007

What a breath of fresh air. I'll bet these courageous people are never assaulted by the bad guys. If more responsible people openly carried weapons you would see a drop in violent crime.

HG | 6:00 a.m. Oct. 22, 2007

Good for them, no nut is apt to try to rob or cause trouble when they see honest citizens well armed.
There are way too many muggings & assaults these days.

BUBBA | 6:12 a.m. Oct. 22, 2007

Hmmmmm..... ?an armed society is a polite society"? Where does THAT come from?

nottyou | 7:07 a.m. Oct. 22, 2007

I love it when people have commonsense. Protect yourself with whatever means you have.

B Williams | 7:08 a.m. Oct. 22, 2007

I have absolutely no problem with citizens openly carrying firearms. Having lived in Central Arizona it's a sight I've grown accustomed to. It's worth noting in places where firearms are carried openly petty crimes like purse snatching are virtually unheard of. My only objection to this conduct would be if an armed person attempted to intimidate me or anyone else from open exercising free speech. In 12 years of living in a well armed community I've never once witnessed this. One area worth addressing would be the use of deadly force by armed bystanders during incidents like the Trolley shootings. The law should be concise in its protection of bystanders who may find themselves in a situation like that. Citizen gun handlers should also be cautioned that they are not the police and their actions should never interfere with them. A bystander engaging an armed criminal could easily be mistaken for a shooter themselves, as was the case at Trolley. Under these circumstances citizens should be trained and prepared to be proned out at gunpoint by the police until their role in the incident is clearly assertained.

Wayne | 7:24 a.m. Oct. 22, 2007

It's about time we all start to protect and deture crazies. Thank you for this story.

Joe | 7:52 a.m. Oct. 22, 2007

Sweet!!! You guys are great and an inspiration!! Rock on!!!

Gag | 7:55 a.m. Oct. 22, 2007

Give me a break. This ain't Dodge City and you ain't Bat Masterson. I don't want some trigger-happy, untrained Matt Dillon wannabe deciding to take me out if I argue with the clerk at the checkout stand at the grocery store.

Al R | 8:06 a.m. Oct. 22, 2007

Good for them. I've carried for many years although I conceal my weapon (legally) I have no problem with open carry. More people need to feel comfortable around guns and by open carrying your weapon you get people used to the fact that normal people carry weapons and not just the criminals. As a matter of fact crime is held at bay when they think that they might not make it out alive. As a civilian I've never had to draw my weapon or present it, although at one time I did flash it in order to save a young lady that was being dragged into a truck by her estranged boyfriend. The police can't be everywhere, at times we need to be ready to protect ourselves and others.

Chuck Farley | 8:09 a.m. Oct. 22, 2007

If one of these people decides to go Dirty Harry in public, and one of my loved ones is shot, I will sue them for everything they own including the gun - with no apologies. These guys have no clue on how to use a gun in public.

Pally | 8:29 a.m. Oct. 22, 2007

To paraphrase a quote from the Columbine time: If these people are this paranoid, they don't need the gun, they need counselling.

N. B. White | 8:30 a.m. Oct. 22, 2007

I wish I were gun savy enough to carry one. I support those who carry openly, and those who carry hidden guns. When there are enough of these people to make an impact, crime will decrease.

Disagree | 8:34 a.m. Oct. 22, 2007

People that carry guns for that one time in their life they want to protect their family are the same as the guys with giant trucks that put a 18,000 pound winch on it for the one time in their life they'll actually need it. The difference, though, is the guy that uses the winch incorrectly will just take out his radiator with a broken cable, but the cluless guy or gal with the gun could take out a bunch of innocent people.

Would that young petite lady in the story with the infant in her arms be able to overpower a criminal that needs a weapon and tackles her because she's an easy target?

We're lucky in this state that we haven't had a serious incident with a Wyatt Earp wannabe killing someone. I dread the day a plain clothed police officer gets killed in the line of duty by one of these vigilantes.

Have any of you gun rights fanatics ever lived in a country that has total gun control? I have, and it's the safest place I've ever been. People still have guns there, but it's extremely rare and difficult to get them.

Dave | 8:36 a.m. Oct. 22, 2007

What was their motto? "A right unexercised is a right lost?" or something like that? (Not on my screen anymore, but you get the point.)

Feh. What alarmist nonsense.

So I choose to go out in public unarmed. That would in no way mean that I've lost the right to do so in the future. Get real, people.

Oh, and just for the record - I don't hate guns, nor gun owners. I don't hate the NRA, though some of their members are a little out there. I love the Second Amendment as much as I love the First.

But I hate foolish, non-fact-based, propaganda thrown out at the public in the hopes that some of it will stick with the people who think in 5-second soundbites.

Thanks for contributing even more to the dumbing-down of America, guys. Or more accurately, trying to capitalize on it.

Al R | 8:41 a.m. Oct. 22, 2007

Bob G., great point, I have 4 children ages from 8-7months and as part of our periodic safety night as a family we go over gun safety. My children know how to respect the weapons that I own and my 8 and 6 year olds have fired them and are quite good at it.
Children get into trouble with guns when they don't understand them and all they see is what is portrayed in the movies and video games.

Tumbleweed Tom | 8:46 a.m. Oct. 22, 2007

You naysayers don't know what you are talking about. Do you know any of these people mentioned in this story? I do. They are well trained in the law and and practice shooting continually. I have to laugh when people say that Utah's concealed weapon permit holders are not as well trained as police officers. Many police officers only shoot as often as they are required to and no more. I've been to handgun competitions where police officers and civilians compete. Many times the civilians outshoot the officers because they practice more. These people know full well the legal risks of carrying a gun and they accept it. You should know that it's rare that a gun is ever fired in self defense. Bad guys are looking for a "safe place to work." Once they discover there are civilians w/ guns, they leave w/o a shot ever being fired 98% of the time. The people in this story are brave, responsible citizens and should be congratulated.

Mike | 8:46 a.m. Oct. 22, 2007

If openly-carried weapons deterred all crime, police officers would never be killed or harmed in the line of duty. Carrying weapons like this will simply encourage a shoot first mentality among real criminals. And the first person who uses their weapon to bring down a purse snatcher will likely find him or herself in jail.

Sheriff? | 8:55 a.m. Oct. 22, 2007

"He always assesses the situation and looks for the exits when he walks into a room." You are not a Sheriff and you are looking to be a hero. Those type of people scare me. If you are looking for a situation for you to be a hero, you are going to find it. And in Bubba's own words; "There's so many lunatics and crazies out there, you never know when something's going to happen." So when I am in the room and something goes down, I don't want you anywhere near me!!!!

Anonymous | 8:58 a.m. Oct. 22, 2007

I'd rather have the bad guy unsure whether I am carrying or not than to have the thing out on my belt where any nut behind me can get the gun unholstered before I have a chance to turn around.

I often been behind police officers whose guns are held on by a small strap with a small snap. How easy it would be to take a gun off an ususpecting cop.

Unless you're working behind a counter, keep it concealed, it's probably safer for you and everyone else.

Anonymous | 9:02 a.m. Oct. 22, 2007

Is it just me or just the Billy The Kid in the group picture have a pistol on both hips? This is how I see the situation: these are the kind of people that get off by intimidating others. These seem to be those that have an inferiority complex that feel like they always have something to prove. I for sure don't want to be there when they decide to get "brave" enough to make their point. I would never carry a gun in public and no one has ever messed with me either. Here's a question to ask yourself, would you be just as comfortable with seeing people carrying openly in public if their skin color and lifestyle didn't look so close to your own?

Pether | 9:04 a.m. Oct. 22, 2007

"An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life."
Robert A. Heinlein
-----------------------------------------------------
I Believe that We ALL have the Right too defend ourselves Equally. I Carry beacuse I feel that my Life is Valueble Enough and so is my Wife's and Families Lifes.
I Carry because I Believe in the Right to Defend You (Chuck Farley). I Believe that EVERY Mother,Father,Daughter,Son ETC are VALUEBLE and that they need to stand the chance of Survival if Facing the Claws of Death.
I will NEVER deny You the Right NOT to Defend Yourself and Your Loved Ones. So PLEASE...Do NOT Deny me the RIGHT to Defend Myself, My Wife and MY Loved Ones.
IF You decide NOT to Carry I WILL Respect that.It's your Right NOT to.

The opening of the Declaration of Independence written by Thomas Jefferson in 1776, states as follows:

ï¿½ We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness.

Thank You and Stay Safe

Az Pete | 9:05 a.m. Oct. 22, 2007

I have a concealed carry permit. Sometimes I carry, sometimes I don't. Having gone through the proper training, I am more aware of my surroundings. If I think there is going to be a problem, I get out of there, even if I have my gun. Now, for you anti-gun folks. If you will substitute the word "car" instead of "gun" in any of your arguments, you will find they don't hold water. Yet, a car is every bit as dangerous as a gun. More people are killed and injured with cars than ever will be with guns. There is no substitute for common sense, which isn't very common any more.

Donald | 9:07 a.m. Oct. 22, 2007

To these hand wringers out there that worry about Permit holders going looney or that don't want to be in the same area as a permit holder with a gun,or, my favorite, if a permit holder , while in self-defense, hits one of your loved ones.

You best lock yourselves in your home because law enforcement is more likely to hit innocents and go a bit looney per capita than are permit holders.

Utan's have been doing this for a dozen years, some of the anti self-defense types in this forum still can't come to grips that permit holders have not caused "blood to run in the streets". Is this what you actually want to happen to fufill your 12 year old unmet predictions?

Jason croft | 9:07 a.m. Oct. 22, 2007

Gosh, all those people carrying guns and not one of them has had to shoot a bunch of people? It's like they have self control and can be trusted or something.

I bet if this was more common all over America we'd see much lower crime.

Nate | 9:16 a.m. Oct. 22, 2007

I salute and respect those Americans and their decision to open carry.

Jared | 9:20 a.m. Oct. 22, 2007

Mike, so you're saying we should disarm officers and that would make them safer?

Who would not want the option of protecting themselves and their family? Carrying a gun (as I do every day) is a big decision. Most of the commenters here seem not to desire this responsibility - and that's fine. I pray you're never in a situation like Trolley Square (which, by the way had a no guns policy).

For me and mine, I choose to have the option of defending with a gun, the great equalizer. No other tool would allow an old woman with a gun to be equal to her carjacker. A 90 pound woman in a wheelchair can pull the trigger on a gun and be completely capable of winning a fight with her 200 pound potential rapist.

Most of you that are against these people's right to carry would have no problems calling a police officer to shoot the intruder in your home. How hypocritical!

Patriot | 9:20 a.m. Oct. 22, 2007

I'd like to thank Deseret News for printing this and for making it a fair and balanced article. I feel bad for the rest of the confused sheep who have to tout misguided statistics and flawed logic from the anti-gunners. You may not like the fact that people like me carry but I refuse to be a victim. Maybe we just remind you that bad things can happen. Maybe you're just ignorant. Each one of us is responsible for our own safety and some of us take that a little more seriously.

Franky | 9:24 a.m. Oct. 22, 2007

You have to look at it this way though, with them openly carrying their firearms they give everyone around them the option of leaving the room or store. You've got to wonder how many times you've been in the same situation but the weapon was concealed and you didn't even know.

A | 9:28 a.m. Oct. 22, 2007

MIKE - I totally agree with you!
Take it from one who actually knows...People who go around sporting guns are more of a PROBLEM to law enforcement than a deterent to crime.
Maybe it's more a "macho thing" than anything elsE. I think it is very foolish and dangerous! They should re-think this whole idea.

Gary | 9:29 a.m. Oct. 22, 2007

When every second counts... the police are just minutes away.

Anonymous | 9:29 a.m. Oct. 22, 2007

This sounds like the Wild West. What does happen if these people see something happening and accidentally kill someone? If they were to accidentally kill one of my family members they'd need more than a gun to protect themselves. They'd need a darn good lawyer.

Wife of a police officer... | 9:34 a.m. Oct. 22, 2007

Hey tumbleweed tom,
Are these civilians that you speak of also trained in high stress situations, tactical manuvers, self defense without using a weapon and most importantly, how to NOT have your gun taken away from you? You may want to get your facts straight before you go comparing the skills of a civilian to those of a police officer. Officers are trained in far more than target practice, a thing VERY critical in protecing our communities. I am not against those who choose to carry guns, I am however for training in complete gun saftey. That includes making sure your gun doesnt end up in the wrong hands.

Mark | 9:37 a.m. Oct. 22, 2007

I am also a gun owner (Colt Frontier Scout-single six)and do not plan walking around in public with it at my side. I depend on trained law-enforcement officers for peacemaking - armed. Let those who are trained to carry guns do so.We live in a free country and a gun permit is a privelege for those who can show maturity and safety training as well as some justification for carrying a deadly weapon in public. Carrying a firearm, should make the armed person constantly aware of being alert to being disarmed and having the weapon turned on themselves or a loved one. I am not ready for that!

ThaddeusSnarky | 9:37 a.m. Oct. 22, 2007

I've never been a fan of open carry, even if it's legal. I prefer that "open carry" be a permitted(licensed) process, much like the CWP. Most of these folks have never taken courses or trained in weapons retention, and have never ever been in a fight for their life with a thug trying to get thier handgun. Most of them will lose that contest.
Whiloe it may be legal, it is definitely an invitation to "SHOOT ME FIRST" when the bad guy start looking for targets. These folks will be the first to die, and most of them will have no idea they have even been targeted.(watching movies, television and other "training media" is no substitute for professional weapons retention.
I prefer to NOT draw attention to myself, having served more than 25 years patrolling the streets in Southern California, most of these folks have faced nothing more menancing than a credit card payment.

Roscoe | 9:41 a.m. Oct. 22, 2007

Those folks have a loose screw. They say they pack guns to be more safe, but their odds for being involved in a violent situation increase by doing it. Have they ever heard of escalating the violence? I can't believe the number of people writing in support of this. We should all start packing heat everywhere we go - yea right. That's a good goal for our society.

AC | 9:59 a.m. Oct. 22, 2007

Its just sad when people feel like they have to be armed to go out with their family. I really don't like the idea of going out to dinner and having someone sitting beside me with a gun. Don't tell me its protection for me too, because I don't want that kind of protection. I'll take my chances!

crich | 10:00 a.m. Oct. 22, 2007

"An armed society is a polite society." Yep -- just look at Iraq!

Fed_Up_In_Dallas | 10:01 a.m. Oct. 22, 2007

According to Statistics (Which Every One Loves To Quote)people with a carry permit are 7 times less likely to commit a violent crime than the average gun owner without a permit. I've hunted all my life, carried a 45 in the service as an MP and I have a CHL(Concealed Handgun License)I carry everyday and thank God have never had to pull my weapon for anything other than puting it in my safe at night. Here in Texas people were saying that the streets would run with blood if they could carry guns legally. Well it hasn't happened in the 10 years it's been leagal to do so. So what are all of you that are against people having guns really afraid of?? Maybe you don't trust yourself with the responsibilty of gun ownership and all that that entails. When the U. S. Supreme Court said the police are only obligated to protect the general public, I decided to protect myself and family from harm if possible. Just my .02 and YMMV.

Jared from CT | 10:08 a.m. Oct. 22, 2007

The right to keep and bear arms is a constitutional right. Anyone who tries to deny law-abiding citizens that right should be willing to relinquish their right to free speech. It is the right to bear arms that purchased that free speech in the first place, and it will be the loss of the right to bear arms that will be a precursor to the loss of the right to free speech.

tarzan1888 | 10:19 a.m. Oct. 22, 2007

I get a kick out of some of the responders. they say thesese people this and these people that.

They don't know me or how I have been trained.

T right to self protection is aod given right, protected by the 2nd amendment so deal with it.

This was a great story.

Tarzan

fsilber | 10:25 a.m. Oct. 22, 2007

Laws against concealed carry passed a hundred years ago were justified by saying that only the mode of carry was restricted -- and therefore the right to bear arms was not infringed. But after armed citizens tamed the west, they got lazy and left their guns at home. Seven decades later crime increased, but society no longer tolerated open carry (though legal, people were charged with "disturbing the peace"). Hence the demand for concealed-carry permits.

Though I see some tactical advantages to concealed-carry, I salute the open-carry people for reminding people that we still have this right.

Miltiades | 10:41 a.m. Oct. 22, 2007

I have a Utah concealed carry permit and often carry concealed. I avoid open carry because I don't want to attract attention to myself. I have never yet had to defend myself with the gun, and would only draw it if I felt that my life (or my companion's life) was in immediate danger.

I don't object to honest citizens open carrying, since the real threat to safety is from criminals who carry concealed. And I admire the state of Utah for its enlightened attitude towards the right of its citizens to have the means to defend themselves. I wish all states would do likewise.

Sly | 10:59 a.m. Oct. 22, 2007

Doesn't the 2nd Ammendment say something about a well regulated militia?

Robert Goble | 10:59 a.m. Oct. 22, 2007

I would have to agree with Thaddeus. Perhaps someone without weapons retention training could make himself a target for the bad guys, but this silly notion that civilians being disarmed would somehow make our society better seriously needs to be reexamined. I would bet that most of the anti-gun bunch have never faced a killer with a gun, stood unarmed looking from the barrel to his eyes. I have, and have lived through it. I was the lucky one. What you find out is that the killer isn't crazy; he is utterly selfish and has rationally decided that you are worth more to him dead than alive. He's not stupid either.
Gun owners recognize the peculiar position where they stand. The right to bear arms is a right to protect oneself from government and social tyranny, and bloody criminals. I know first hand that the police arrive mostly AFTER the crime has been committed. So the American gun owner is pinned between a powerful group (government and social) who wants him disarmed, and a cold, rational knowledge that bad people violently rob and kill every day, and when that happens its just you and the criminal.

Ava from Ada Co | 11:03 a.m. Oct. 22, 2007

I am uncomfortable with anyone not trained and certified as a law enforcement officer carrying side arm weapons in public. I am an excellent shot with an automatic. I went through "shoot/no shoot" simulation training with the Boise police and under the simulated stress of the full wall video, I missed every "bad guy" target. I sprayed bullets when I thought I was "calmly and cooly" aiming. I shot one good guy. Civilians should think carefully before putting themselves in a potential fire fight in a public area.

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