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Readers' forum: Rocky is anti-LDS Church
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Martin in England | 3:24 a.m. Sept. 5, 2007
I'm LDS, and as only as small percentage are members, am used to a diverse
culture. However I have visited SLC 3 or 4 times annually since 1982 and it has
been interesting to watch the constant change in culture and the polarisation of
LDS and non-LDS communities.
As a commited LDS member, of course I want to share my beliefs and values with others; whether it's religion, sport, politics or whatever, we share what we value and what makes us happy. But I don't feel any need to impose my beliefs or values on anyone else and expect the same respect back. I believe we should be able to live in harmony with anyone irrespective of their religious or other values. For example, we have gay people at my office, I don't subscribe to their lifestyle choice, but my relationship with them is the same as with all of my other colleagues.
Therefore, the very fact that this debate is taking place is, in my view, extremely sad.
Rocky has often taken divisive stances and has been a major factor in the LDS/nonLDS polarisation. His predecessor, Deedee showed that a multi-cultural approach is possible. Salt Lake (like every other city) needs a mayor who will unite people to a common cause. Values of peace, tolerance, respect, family are not "LDS" or "non LDS" values, they are values that the majority of people follow in their lives.
Utah is a great place to live, the scenery and recreation is second to none, but more importantly, having visited over 30 countries, and over 35 states in the USA, I can also say the lifestyle is amongst the best anywhere. In England, crime, vandalism and apathy are commonplace, I would love to live in Utah. LDS or not, protect it!
As a commited LDS member, of course I want to share my beliefs and values with others; whether it's religion, sport, politics or whatever, we share what we value and what makes us happy. But I don't feel any need to impose my beliefs or values on anyone else and expect the same respect back. I believe we should be able to live in harmony with anyone irrespective of their religious or other values. For example, we have gay people at my office, I don't subscribe to their lifestyle choice, but my relationship with them is the same as with all of my other colleagues.
Therefore, the very fact that this debate is taking place is, in my view, extremely sad.
Rocky has often taken divisive stances and has been a major factor in the LDS/nonLDS polarisation. His predecessor, Deedee showed that a multi-cultural approach is possible. Salt Lake (like every other city) needs a mayor who will unite people to a common cause. Values of peace, tolerance, respect, family are not "LDS" or "non LDS" values, they are values that the majority of people follow in their lives.
Utah is a great place to live, the scenery and recreation is second to none, but more importantly, having visited over 30 countries, and over 35 states in the USA, I can also say the lifestyle is amongst the best anywhere. In England, crime, vandalism and apathy are commonplace, I would love to live in Utah. LDS or not, protect it!
Kia | 7:10 a.m. Sept. 5, 2007
This is news?!
Comments continue below
See you later Rocky | 9:47 a.m. Sept. 5, 2007
Rocky is the most divisive Mayor in Utah history and whatever success he has had
in office is overshadowed by his failure to bring a community together. Thank
goodness he is almost out of office!!!! Yahoo!
Skip | 9:59 a.m. Sept. 5, 2007
Amy Bjorge,
You have somehow made this post all about you which is just what you wanted. I can just see the selfishness oozing from my screen when I read your posts. You're the one that brought up your dislike for the Church in the first place. No one challenged you about your faith. You just launched in about the 4th and 6th post about south park, blood atonement, etc... no one asked you about those things. No one wrote word one about those things or challenged you until you opened the door.
Your posts are self serving and nothing else. You could care less about the way SLC is run and I doubt that you even live in the city.
Keep your selfish posts about your dislike for the Mormon church out of here. Stick to the topic. Don't open the door to this religious bickering back and forth between yourself and others.
As for Mayor Anderson, he has done what he came in to do. Many things have been improved while he has been mayor. the Jazz Festival has been a stroke of genius. I don't agree with him on social issues or the way he has handled the situation with the LDS Church. He has led in the way i always exected and has had the cities best interests at heart.
You have somehow made this post all about you which is just what you wanted. I can just see the selfishness oozing from my screen when I read your posts. You're the one that brought up your dislike for the Church in the first place. No one challenged you about your faith. You just launched in about the 4th and 6th post about south park, blood atonement, etc... no one asked you about those things. No one wrote word one about those things or challenged you until you opened the door.
Your posts are self serving and nothing else. You could care less about the way SLC is run and I doubt that you even live in the city.
Keep your selfish posts about your dislike for the Mormon church out of here. Stick to the topic. Don't open the door to this religious bickering back and forth between yourself and others.
As for Mayor Anderson, he has done what he came in to do. Many things have been improved while he has been mayor. the Jazz Festival has been a stroke of genius. I don't agree with him on social issues or the way he has handled the situation with the LDS Church. He has led in the way i always exected and has had the cities best interests at heart.
Dale Palmer | 10:13 a.m. Sept. 5, 2007
I come from a different state and culture....were diversity and difference in
religion and state are not only tolerated but encouraged. Living in the state
Utah has been a major eye opener. LDS culture portends to accept different
religion and beliefs, yet whenever someone says or does something that is not in
line with their personal social or religous realm, they get all up in arms about
it. In some ways there is allot of religous and social simularities with the
Muslum culture. If LDS people as a culture will learn to truly accept non-LDS
people's rights to believe differently then allot of the hatered towards
LDS people as a religion would cease. Unfortunatly...history has not been on
the LDS side, as it continues to repeat itself. How long before LDS is no
longer the dominate culture in Salt Lake City and the tide turns. What will LDS
people do then??? Stop judjing others by your LDS boundries. Accept them for
their differences of opinion,thought and diversity. You will be wiser for
it.
Spoken as one who was raised LDS for 45 years....I have seen both sides....
Spoken as one who was raised LDS for 45 years....I have seen both sides....
Anonymous | 11:00 a.m. Sept. 5, 2007
For "Goodbye, Utah :(",
It's fascinating that you name Seattle as some kind of mecca of open-mindedness and diversity of thought. I still live in the Puget Sound and work in Seattle every day, and I have found Seattle to be its own little "bubble", in regards to how and when people look down their noses at you.
Want to be ostracized in Seattle? It's easy! Just express a non-leftist opinion. About anything. That glorious Seattle open-mindedness only works one way.
Hell, my wife and I had a very good friend pretty much kick us out of her life because she couldn't deal with the fact that we weren't "left" in the way she needed us to be "left" in order for her to be able to tolerate us. And by Utah standards, my wife and I are pretty freaking liberal.
So please, before you set Seattle up against Salt Lake, or the Puget Sound against Utah, check yourself. Seattle and the Puget Sound have their own shibboleths, their own "rules", their own cliques and in-clubs and logic, where shutting people out is concerned. They just happen to be prejudiced from a different part of the spectrum, compared to Utahns. That's all.
I for one can't wait to get back to Utah. It's not a perfect state, but it has a much better cost-of-living index, better public schools, you can buy a decent family home for under $500,000 and you don't have to deal with all the obnoxious, wannabe San Francisco North attitude.
It's fascinating that you name Seattle as some kind of mecca of open-mindedness and diversity of thought. I still live in the Puget Sound and work in Seattle every day, and I have found Seattle to be its own little "bubble", in regards to how and when people look down their noses at you.
Want to be ostracized in Seattle? It's easy! Just express a non-leftist opinion. About anything. That glorious Seattle open-mindedness only works one way.
Hell, my wife and I had a very good friend pretty much kick us out of her life because she couldn't deal with the fact that we weren't "left" in the way she needed us to be "left" in order for her to be able to tolerate us. And by Utah standards, my wife and I are pretty freaking liberal.
So please, before you set Seattle up against Salt Lake, or the Puget Sound against Utah, check yourself. Seattle and the Puget Sound have their own shibboleths, their own "rules", their own cliques and in-clubs and logic, where shutting people out is concerned. They just happen to be prejudiced from a different part of the spectrum, compared to Utahns. That's all.
I for one can't wait to get back to Utah. It's not a perfect state, but it has a much better cost-of-living index, better public schools, you can buy a decent family home for under $500,000 and you don't have to deal with all the obnoxious, wannabe San Francisco North attitude.
Paula Cook | 11:13 a.m. Sept. 5, 2007
The thing that I don't like about Utah is that Mormons tend to try and push
their faith down other people's throats because they feel they are the only
true church. We will never, ever have unity in the state of Utah because of
that & because they try to make those not of their religion feel that they
are a lesser people. This is simply wrong and never will bring those closer to
their beliefs. I have lived in this state for over 42 years, have gone through
a 4 year college and still feel a major tension between mormons &
non-mormons. Isn't it sad to see as people drive by, how heads are
intentionally turned the other way just because of faith? The Mormon
church's faith causes clicks, which causes tension and has hurt many people
of other religions. This in turn causes those of other faiths to react. If the
Mormons want state unity they should be willing to except people for who they
are, not for the color of skin, race, or religion. They need to stop pushing
their religous perspective onto others that have just as strong of a stance in
their religion as they do. If we are to start to get along as a society then we
must put religious & other biases aside and look past the outer layer
straight through to the true person on the inside. Rocky Anderson has been a
very good mayor and has done alot of good for the state of Utah for diversity
and many other things. I say quit being quick to judge and start concentrating
on self because that is what we all really need to work on.
Weeps | 11:24 a.m. Sept. 5, 2007
Bednar gets it, he really does.
bjb | 12:22 p.m. Sept. 5, 2007
I got bored reading everyone�s rants so I'm just
adding mine, if it is repetitive, I'm sorry. While I know it must be
frustrating for people who live and worship differently than the LDS church, we
can't forget that the USA, Utah included is a Democracy. The majority of
Utahans are Mormon and therefore Mormon theology will have a very powerful
influence on who gets elected to government offices as well as the policies and
laws that are put in place. This concept is a core principal of our country. I
personally encourage and respect opposing opinions; however it is obvious that
many individuals are too immature to avoid using name calling and bigotry to
express themselves. I personally wouldn't have voted for Rocky, but his
time is almost up, he hasn't destroyed SLC or Utah, lets build on the good
he has done for SLC and look forward to the changes and progress that the new
mayor of SLC will bring.
re: Dale Palmer & Paula | 1:03 p.m. Sept. 5, 2007
Dale, in your comments you don't give any examples of anyone not allowing
people their own beliefs. Is that because you don't have any examples?
You throw out the tired lines of live and let live. On a daily basis that's exactly what I see. I live on a cul-de-sac that has 3 mormons, 2 catholics, 1 baptist and 2 I don't know what they believe and not once in all the parties that we've had have I ever heard someone tell someone else what to believe. In fact, religion rarely if ever comes up.
No matter what you believe or where you live (read the comments here) people will stand up for what they believe. Why is that so hard for those who oppose or have different beliefs than Mormons to understand? You are pushing your beliefs on me. Why can't I defend my beliefs? It's always a one-way street that the Mormons have to bend their beliefs to appease someone else's. Why not the other way? Not fair? Why not?
If I don't believe in abortion and to get to the 'middle ground' why don't those who believe in abortion have to change their point of view? Why must I change mine to get to the middle?
Paula, you live in a sad neighborhood. I've never seen what you describe. Did you know that the Catholics & Baptists believe they are the one and only true church? So do the Seventh Day Adventists who just came to my house yesterday.
You seem to be one who looks to be offended at every turn. That's what is sad. Based on your comments, you aren't very tolerant of those with different beliefs. Are you ready to start with yourself? If so, others will follow.
Rocky was a horrible mayor.
You throw out the tired lines of live and let live. On a daily basis that's exactly what I see. I live on a cul-de-sac that has 3 mormons, 2 catholics, 1 baptist and 2 I don't know what they believe and not once in all the parties that we've had have I ever heard someone tell someone else what to believe. In fact, religion rarely if ever comes up.
No matter what you believe or where you live (read the comments here) people will stand up for what they believe. Why is that so hard for those who oppose or have different beliefs than Mormons to understand? You are pushing your beliefs on me. Why can't I defend my beliefs? It's always a one-way street that the Mormons have to bend their beliefs to appease someone else's. Why not the other way? Not fair? Why not?
If I don't believe in abortion and to get to the 'middle ground' why don't those who believe in abortion have to change their point of view? Why must I change mine to get to the middle?
Paula, you live in a sad neighborhood. I've never seen what you describe. Did you know that the Catholics & Baptists believe they are the one and only true church? So do the Seventh Day Adventists who just came to my house yesterday.
You seem to be one who looks to be offended at every turn. That's what is sad. Based on your comments, you aren't very tolerant of those with different beliefs. Are you ready to start with yourself? If so, others will follow.
Rocky was a horrible mayor.
Regarding Seattle | 1:05 p.m. Sept. 5, 2007
Anonymous, you nailed it regarding Seattle. Maybe Rocky should move there.
I'm sure he would be much happier.
Camilla Parker | 1:10 p.m. Sept. 5, 2007
Guess what? I like Amy! I don't know her one bit, but I respect her and I
like her. Guess what else? I am NOT better than any of you, and none of you are
better than me. But I really want to give a shout out to Amy. "I like &
respect you." Now STOP all the mud slinging. You all should be very
ashaimed of yourselves.
dissl | 1:46 p.m. Sept. 5, 2007
don't be a biased writer. hey has a right to his opinions just like you do
but i don't want to here about you i just want to hear the facts about the
story.
Jimmy's Sneakers | 1:52 p.m. Sept. 5, 2007
Jimmy doesn't dig politics. Jimmy doesn't like Rocky. Jimmy's
cool with chicks though.
Checks and balances | 2:19 p.m. Sept. 5, 2007
The great thing about SLC right now is that the mayor is anti-mormon, but the
slc council is very pro-mormon. The two side are balancing each other out,
creating a great city.
I hope we can keep balance and either elect another mayor like Rocky, or get a new council that won't be persuaded by the LDS church.
I hope we can keep balance and either elect another mayor like Rocky, or get a new council that won't be persuaded by the LDS church.
Harry H.Surya | 2:32 p.m. Sept. 5, 2007
Rocky Anderson is something to the mormon, I think Utah is mormon country. He
does not show no respect to himself or to the mormon Utah is always belong to
the mormon to settel there. I know is big time liberal and will always destory
the faith of the land
Welcome... | 2:43 p.m. Sept. 5, 2007
Hey Joe... Thanks for making such a good point about yourself and far too many
(certainly not all) of your LDS brethren. Many have good intentions, yet are
not even interested in what goes on outside of their beloved bubble. The
secular world where true statesmen like Rocky & your gentile neighbors live
is apparently worthy of the scorn you've displayed. This breeds arrogance,
kind of like when you comment that Utah can't be faulted for not making it
easier for me to 'get a drink and neglect my family.' Almost as if -
ahem - those who don't share your exact values are heathens & should
just shut up and know what's good for them. Sound familiar? That kind of
institutionalized moral grand-standing must be called to account by statesmen
who understand the 1st ammendment. I had at one time a wonderful extended
family and I've never abused the drink. I did, however, get
'dis-fellowshipped' as you call it when the so-called faithful
disgracefully (on cue?) turn their back on someone - even family - who has
committed no other sin than to objectively research and -GASP- point out the
myriad historical half-truths perpetuated within the church. I was never
confrontational... I had legitimate questions about the not-so-pretty facts
being replaced by feel-good parables on the origins of this church. Most simply
don't want to know what exactly has been revised and then spoon-fed to the
masses in benign form... It's scary for them; dangerous to the status quo.
You cite 'integrity' as some sort of pillar of the faith,
"soundness of moral character; honesty", but your history won't
stand up to questions? You state that the 'practice of righteous
things' will never change because 'they come from God.' Familiar
with polygamy? Blacks in the priesthood?
Houston | 2:57 p.m. Sept. 5, 2007
Martin,
One item you state tolerance. To what degree. The prolblems we are experiencing not only in the U.S. but in the world is there is to much tolerance and tolerance leads to apahty
One item you state tolerance. To what degree. The prolblems we are experiencing not only in the U.S. but in the world is there is to much tolerance and tolerance leads to apahty
Tim | 3:06 p.m. Sept. 5, 2007
So "Welcome" how does it feel to think that you have the absolute
truth that nobody else possess. Of course that would mean that somehow you have
some hidden piece of truth proving that you were once a fool in believing what
you did. If that hidden pice of truth existed the Mormon church would have
collapsed. Unfortunately just like good old Sydney Ridgon you don't have a
leg to stand on.
You have obviously missed the fact that the Church from the time of Christ has continued to change to deal with growth. You point out polygamy and black in the priesthood but fail to bring up that Moses went back to talk to god when the Israelites showed how unprepared they were spirtually.
Of course people turned their backs on you. Not because of the fact you chose another path but because you felt that you were so enlightened that you possessed the right to attack their faith because it was no longer your own and because you knew better.
You have obviously missed the fact that the Church from the time of Christ has continued to change to deal with growth. You point out polygamy and black in the priesthood but fail to bring up that Moses went back to talk to god when the Israelites showed how unprepared they were spirtually.
Of course people turned their backs on you. Not because of the fact you chose another path but because you felt that you were so enlightened that you possessed the right to attack their faith because it was no longer your own and because you knew better.
Anonymous | 3:09 p.m. Sept. 5, 2007
Why are you guys so bored as to post 233 things about some rant about a guy who
does not like rocky. Get a l*fe.
The Deseret Spectacle | 3:14 p.m. Sept. 5, 2007
Amy, you go, girl. You've been one of the few voices of humor and reason
the Deseret Morning News' opinion page has known over the last few years.
"LDS are Utah": You are hilarious. We would all be hard pressed to find such an archetypal Utah Mormon that people hate. The "If you don't like it, leave" ... the "The Mormons are the only good thing about Utah.." But my favorite is suggesting that if the GA's had not recommended that members not tell disgruntled or frustrated neighbors to "leave" that it's okay.
What kind of example of your faith do you want to be? 'cause let me tell ya, you really beam spirituality right now. I'm getting all kinds of warm fuzzies at your posts, and can't help but think "Man, I wants me some of dat!"
DS
"LDS are Utah": You are hilarious. We would all be hard pressed to find such an archetypal Utah Mormon that people hate. The "If you don't like it, leave" ... the "The Mormons are the only good thing about Utah.." But my favorite is suggesting that if the GA's had not recommended that members not tell disgruntled or frustrated neighbors to "leave" that it's okay.
What kind of example of your faith do you want to be? 'cause let me tell ya, you really beam spirituality right now. I'm getting all kinds of warm fuzzies at your posts, and can't help but think "Man, I wants me some of dat!"
DS
Mitch Hayden | 3:26 p.m. Sept. 5, 2007
I'll put down a few "facts" and you can debate them rather than
name calling:
1. The LDS church, as an organization, does not in a formal way through church meetings, clergy annoucements or any other day to day type activities involve themselves in politics, political parties, or candidates.
2. The church does offer a public statement once in a while about a given topic about their position. The issue of gambling was the example I can remember right now. There could be others.
3. The influence of the LDS church in government comes about as BJB just said above: The quantity of voters that have LDS-like beliefs elect people who have similar beliefs.
1. The LDS church, as an organization, does not in a formal way through church meetings, clergy annoucements or any other day to day type activities involve themselves in politics, political parties, or candidates.
2. The church does offer a public statement once in a while about a given topic about their position. The issue of gambling was the example I can remember right now. There could be others.
3. The influence of the LDS church in government comes about as BJB just said above: The quantity of voters that have LDS-like beliefs elect people who have similar beliefs.
Welcome... | 3:26 p.m. Sept. 5, 2007
Actually, Tim, backs were turned on me because like you they were brought up
believing that to ask questions is the same as an attack on their faith.
Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
Tim | 4:07 p.m. Sept. 5, 2007
Don't act like you know me or how I was brought up. I have questioned
things before. I also do my homework when I have question and look for answers
across the board instead of sticking to biased sources from either side of an
argument. Then again God is the man with all the answers and I take all my
questions to him and trust him more then any man I know
Acts 26:14 And when we were all fallen to the earth, I heard a voice speaking unto me, and saying in the Hebrew tongue, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.
Oh and "Welcome" I have yet to turn my back on a friend just because they didn't believe the same as me. The only time I turned my back on a friend was when a friend chose to attack me using the normal BS attempts to persuade me I am wrong. My faith is based on my knowledge of the scriptures and the fact that more now then ever there is a need for a prophet. How anyone can believe a prophet was something that was only necessary before Christ is beyond me. Prophets called of god have been the one constant throught time in knowing the true Church, well that and actually calling the Church in Christs name.
Acts 26:14 And when we were all fallen to the earth, I heard a voice speaking unto me, and saying in the Hebrew tongue, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.
Oh and "Welcome" I have yet to turn my back on a friend just because they didn't believe the same as me. The only time I turned my back on a friend was when a friend chose to attack me using the normal BS attempts to persuade me I am wrong. My faith is based on my knowledge of the scriptures and the fact that more now then ever there is a need for a prophet. How anyone can believe a prophet was something that was only necessary before Christ is beyond me. Prophets called of god have been the one constant throught time in knowing the true Church, well that and actually calling the Church in Christs name.
mark | 4:15 p.m. Sept. 5, 2007
Wow, strong work Harry H., nice use of grammar and spelling. Big time
liberals will always destroy the faith of the land? Wow, it sounds like you do
not think that there are liberals who have strong fatih. Way to go. Keep
listening to the conservative pundits.
NLS? A timeless phrase within the Mormon community is that people are inherently and subconsciously miserable because they left the LDS church and that is why people cannot "leave the church alone"? NLS, it is pathetic that some people actually believe such nonsense.
Anonymous in Seattle, your wife had a friend that kicked her out of her life becaused she was not liberal enough? Do you think that does not happen here in Zion. Do you believe that there are not some parents in Utah that will not let their children play with other children because they are not of the 'correct" religion? That friends distance themselves because of political believes?
And to whoever said that SLC is so clean, look up in the sky, look to the horizon, you see that brown gunk? Clean? Are you kidding?
NLS? A timeless phrase within the Mormon community is that people are inherently and subconsciously miserable because they left the LDS church and that is why people cannot "leave the church alone"? NLS, it is pathetic that some people actually believe such nonsense.
Anonymous in Seattle, your wife had a friend that kicked her out of her life becaused she was not liberal enough? Do you think that does not happen here in Zion. Do you believe that there are not some parents in Utah that will not let their children play with other children because they are not of the 'correct" religion? That friends distance themselves because of political believes?
And to whoever said that SLC is so clean, look up in the sky, look to the horizon, you see that brown gunk? Clean? Are you kidding?
Mitch Hayden | 4:24 p.m. Sept. 5, 2007
It is hard to live together in a "group" where we have differing
values. (But in some ways it is good and even entertaining.)
Here are some of my values and see if you agree:
1. Do not go to the lake and fish, you should water ski instead.
2. Do not sneeze in other peoples faces.
3. Do not drive 55mph in a 25mph
4. Do not kidnap kids and then murder them
As you can see these range from choices of taste, to common laws of courtesy to even an item we all agree on is a very serious sin. (cultural and other level)
For the issue of skiing or fishing... I think some of you might disagree with me on that one. But ask yourself "is it really true that he must be dumb, or stupid, or ignorant, or ridculous to prefer skiing over fishing?"
Maybe what we should do, rather than just put someone down for not likeing what we do is compromise a little bit.
Let say you and I go for a boat ride and half of the time we fish and half of the time we ski. And we'll each try a little of both. I might learn that the some of the value of fishing is that there can be some good chit chat about life and telling stories. That would be nice.
Maybe we don't really want to do either - it just isn't in our value set. So how about we share the boat and you take it some times and I'll take it others. To live together we'll have to find a little compromise.
And for Rocky Anderson, I wished he would take a friendlier, more compromising position, esp. a politician. I hope the same for you and me.
Here are some of my values and see if you agree:
1. Do not go to the lake and fish, you should water ski instead.
2. Do not sneeze in other peoples faces.
3. Do not drive 55mph in a 25mph
4. Do not kidnap kids and then murder them
As you can see these range from choices of taste, to common laws of courtesy to even an item we all agree on is a very serious sin. (cultural and other level)
For the issue of skiing or fishing... I think some of you might disagree with me on that one. But ask yourself "is it really true that he must be dumb, or stupid, or ignorant, or ridculous to prefer skiing over fishing?"
Maybe what we should do, rather than just put someone down for not likeing what we do is compromise a little bit.
Let say you and I go for a boat ride and half of the time we fish and half of the time we ski. And we'll each try a little of both. I might learn that the some of the value of fishing is that there can be some good chit chat about life and telling stories. That would be nice.
Maybe we don't really want to do either - it just isn't in our value set. So how about we share the boat and you take it some times and I'll take it others. To live together we'll have to find a little compromise.
And for Rocky Anderson, I wished he would take a friendlier, more compromising position, esp. a politician. I hope the same for you and me.
Raymond Takashi Swenson | 4:27 p.m. Sept. 5, 2007
Mayor Anderson has been notorious for being short-tempered and intolerant of
anyone on the City staff who disagrees with his opinions. His condemnation of
the LDS members of the City Council and LDS candidates for mayor is just another
example of his general intolerance for dissenting opinions.
He uses ad hominem attacks on those who disagree with him, including on issues like global warming, where he criticizes scientists whose opinion he doesn't like, even though he has no particular scientific credentials.
Anderson's posturing based on ignorance is demonstrated by his campaign against bottled water, where he demonstrates that, because of his overwhelming desire to be politically correct on environmental issues, he has been suckered into a cultural hoax akin to the one perpetrated ten years ago by the fake campaign to ban "dihydrogen monoxide"--H2O or water--and popularized by then junior high student Nathan Zohner. His irrationality would be amusing except for the fact that, as mayor, he has power to take away the freedom of city employees, like the fire and police departments. What could be more innocuous than water, yet Anderson has painted it as an environmental villain, and the SL Tribune has hypocritically gone along with his insanity, even though the process of printing and distributing a daily newspaper burns up far more gasoline and creates far more landfill waste than water bottles ever will.
Anderson's condemnation of the election of LDS members to public office is a throwback to the anti-Mormon hysteria of a century ago. Anderson argues that Mormons can't think for themselves, yet his own political positions are so predictable that he could be replaced by a computer program.
Anderson demonstrates an incredible megalomania, partly because the national news media don't understand his city is only a small part of Utah's population.
He uses ad hominem attacks on those who disagree with him, including on issues like global warming, where he criticizes scientists whose opinion he doesn't like, even though he has no particular scientific credentials.
Anderson's posturing based on ignorance is demonstrated by his campaign against bottled water, where he demonstrates that, because of his overwhelming desire to be politically correct on environmental issues, he has been suckered into a cultural hoax akin to the one perpetrated ten years ago by the fake campaign to ban "dihydrogen monoxide"--H2O or water--and popularized by then junior high student Nathan Zohner. His irrationality would be amusing except for the fact that, as mayor, he has power to take away the freedom of city employees, like the fire and police departments. What could be more innocuous than water, yet Anderson has painted it as an environmental villain, and the SL Tribune has hypocritically gone along with his insanity, even though the process of printing and distributing a daily newspaper burns up far more gasoline and creates far more landfill waste than water bottles ever will.
Anderson's condemnation of the election of LDS members to public office is a throwback to the anti-Mormon hysteria of a century ago. Anderson argues that Mormons can't think for themselves, yet his own political positions are so predictable that he could be replaced by a computer program.
Anderson demonstrates an incredible megalomania, partly because the national news media don't understand his city is only a small part of Utah's population.
to the Des News | 4:45 p.m. Sept. 5, 2007
Okay Deseret News, explain it to me why Mormons can criticize Rocky's
Non-mormons supporters here, but Non-mormons can not criticize Mormon Rocky
haters here. Is that unbiased editing?
Dale Palmer | 4:48 p.m. Sept. 5, 2007
To: Re: Dale/Paula
At least have the courage to sign your name!!!
As for persecution...thats what this whole comment is about. Rocky should go because he doesn't support LDS beliefs. That is in itself a form of persecution.
Defending one's belief is different than asking for the removal of an Elected Official because that official doesn't support your religions beliefs.
There is a difference....
It's this kind of difference that got the Mormons persecuted in the first place. Live and accept...don't judge and remove. I never said I wanted to remove Mormons from the State. They are good people...who unfortunately as a culture feel that they are chosen and everyone else is going to Hell....hence my comparison to Muslimism....
When they learn to follow Gordon B. Hinkleys advice to love their neighbors, be an example and most of all stop judging...then things will improve. I know you don't believe it, but if you read through all these comments...there are allot of ex:Mormons who all say the same thing. Mormons are judgemental and non-accepting of others beliefs. They force their beliefs on others...to the extent that they do stupid things like trying to buy public streets so they can access their temple....forget that the rest of the public might want to use that piece of property!!!
You and I could go at this for days...and days and days.
Of course that's the Great Thing about being an American...both you and I can say what we want an we can agree....to disagree!!!
Can I hear one for God bless America???
At least have the courage to sign your name!!!
As for persecution...thats what this whole comment is about. Rocky should go because he doesn't support LDS beliefs. That is in itself a form of persecution.
Defending one's belief is different than asking for the removal of an Elected Official because that official doesn't support your religions beliefs.
There is a difference....
It's this kind of difference that got the Mormons persecuted in the first place. Live and accept...don't judge and remove. I never said I wanted to remove Mormons from the State. They are good people...who unfortunately as a culture feel that they are chosen and everyone else is going to Hell....hence my comparison to Muslimism....
When they learn to follow Gordon B. Hinkleys advice to love their neighbors, be an example and most of all stop judging...then things will improve. I know you don't believe it, but if you read through all these comments...there are allot of ex:Mormons who all say the same thing. Mormons are judgemental and non-accepting of others beliefs. They force their beliefs on others...to the extent that they do stupid things like trying to buy public streets so they can access their temple....forget that the rest of the public might want to use that piece of property!!!
You and I could go at this for days...and days and days.
Of course that's the Great Thing about being an American...both you and I can say what we want an we can agree....to disagree!!!
Can I hear one for God bless America???
Anonymous | 4:52 p.m. Sept. 5, 2007
Why is it so important to label the entire Mormon population for what a single
person, a family, or a small percetage of people behave like?
Never, ever, ever, had the teachings/council of the Mormon church or anything given by clergy said "if somebody you know leaves either by volunteering or by formal excommunication, you should immediately shun them, disown them, act like you don't know them - so for example, you shoule quickly shut the garage door if it looks like they are comming over to get a cup of sugar."
Never, ever, ever.
But people do that sort of thing out of human weakness. Not becuase of training. Not becuase of indoctrination. Not becuase of any teaching by the church. And I believe not even from a secondary condition of any sort.
So why blame the church for something that an imperfect human has done to you in hurtful sort of way?
Never, ever, ever, had the teachings/council of the Mormon church or anything given by clergy said "if somebody you know leaves either by volunteering or by formal excommunication, you should immediately shun them, disown them, act like you don't know them - so for example, you shoule quickly shut the garage door if it looks like they are comming over to get a cup of sugar."
Never, ever, ever.
But people do that sort of thing out of human weakness. Not becuase of training. Not becuase of indoctrination. Not becuase of any teaching by the church. And I believe not even from a secondary condition of any sort.
So why blame the church for something that an imperfect human has done to you in hurtful sort of way?
Mitch Hayden | 5:12 p.m. Sept. 5, 2007
It seems reaonsable that if someone attacks you in some personal way that you
would feel compelled to defend yourself?
That is the reason we get "defensive" - it is natural. Mormons and non-Mormons alike.
And every one of us a a rule set by which we live that it the RIGHT way. That is a fact since that is the way we live whether you are a card-carrying member of any organized religion or not.
So attacking one anothers beliefs is of no value really. Tell me otherwise.
But is it harmful if someone says "hey you should try fishing - it really is a good time. I belive it to be a real benefit in my life. Come with me and try it."
No it isn't harmful and we'd all agree with that :-) Becuase it is not an attack on personal beliefs it is an invite.
An issue brought up earlier in the thread above is "well my visiting teacher won't leave me alone and I've politely asked to be left alone."
If that is the case, then it is human weakness in error again, not the organization of the Mormon Church.
Never, ever, ever has any church teaching/council in which i have participated ever, ever said to continue hometeaching somebody when they have asked for no home teachers. If someone asks to be removed from the home teaching list, i have always witnessed in my actions or those of others to simply grant their request and leave them off the list.
Why condem the whole church for the actions of an imperfect person?
That is the reason we get "defensive" - it is natural. Mormons and non-Mormons alike.
And every one of us a a rule set by which we live that it the RIGHT way. That is a fact since that is the way we live whether you are a card-carrying member of any organized religion or not.
So attacking one anothers beliefs is of no value really. Tell me otherwise.
But is it harmful if someone says "hey you should try fishing - it really is a good time. I belive it to be a real benefit in my life. Come with me and try it."
No it isn't harmful and we'd all agree with that :-) Becuase it is not an attack on personal beliefs it is an invite.
An issue brought up earlier in the thread above is "well my visiting teacher won't leave me alone and I've politely asked to be left alone."
If that is the case, then it is human weakness in error again, not the organization of the Mormon Church.
Never, ever, ever has any church teaching/council in which i have participated ever, ever said to continue hometeaching somebody when they have asked for no home teachers. If someone asks to be removed from the home teaching list, i have always witnessed in my actions or those of others to simply grant their request and leave them off the list.
Why condem the whole church for the actions of an imperfect person?
Welcome... | 5:24 p.m. Sept. 5, 2007
Tim; I don't know where to begin. I don't mean to imply that I know
you or how you were raised. I knew you by your fruits, as someone once said. I
told you I did some objective research which led me to some troubling questions.
It's all out there if you look, you know... and certainly not just from
biased sources. I, just like you, do my homework. I tried - respectfully - to
seek the counsel of family members and those with more knowledge of the church
than I. In truth, they had no answers and for my trouble I was first tolerated,
then shunned. Again, if respectful questioning with a sincere desire to
understand is an attack on a person's faith, or even if it's an
example of the 'normal BS attempts to persuade you that you're
wrong'... well then I guess it sounds to me like it's a shallow faith
indeed.
ex-Salt Laker | 5:47 p.m. Sept. 5, 2007
I have to say that I am absolutely mystified why Rocky Anderson gets so much
attention outside the city of Salt Lake. Why are people from Orem, Logan, Ogden
and Bountiful commenting on his words and actions? Why do you care? After all,
he is not your mayor, you didn't vote for him and he doesn't represent
you in any way. I still have family in Salt Lake, but I now live in Seattle,
and I have to say the the residents of Bellevue, Tacoma and Everett rarely
comment on the politics of Seattle and our Mayor. Why should they? The only
conclusion I can come to is that because your region is the only established
theocracy in the Nation, you feel a vested interest in the politics of the city
where the LDS Inc. Corporation is located. You truly once again have set
yourself apart from the rest of America as a strange anomaly. No wonder Romney
is going to have such a hard time getting elected. Look at yourselves... how
could you possibly wonder when you put yourselves in the shoes of an outsider,
why the rest of America would have grave reservations about a Mormon as
president. You can't even run a city right without the outside influence
of the church. God knows you never could run a country!
Mitch Hayden | 6:02 p.m. Sept. 5, 2007
Dale Palmer,
In your comment you stated - as i see it - that all mormons are judgemental.
It is this kind of blanket statement about women, African Americans, group xyz, etc, that we've been striving to remove for sometime in our society becuase it is an inflamatory and hateful statement.
It is this sort of statement that compels me to defend ("be defensive" i guess.)
I respectfully, do not agree with you.
I have moved around a lot and so i have met a lot of Mormons in my day and they are not - as a rule judgemental. I have met some, no doubt.
And you don't have to be a non-Mormon to see who they are...
The church teachings never, ever, ever, ask us to judge our neighbor (mormon, non-mormon alike) for the purpose of condemning them. We are taught to love our neighbor.
Judging others is an act of human weakness and not a doctrine.
In your comment you stated - as i see it - that all mormons are judgemental.
It is this kind of blanket statement about women, African Americans, group xyz, etc, that we've been striving to remove for sometime in our society becuase it is an inflamatory and hateful statement.
It is this sort of statement that compels me to defend ("be defensive" i guess.)
I respectfully, do not agree with you.
I have moved around a lot and so i have met a lot of Mormons in my day and they are not - as a rule judgemental. I have met some, no doubt.
And you don't have to be a non-Mormon to see who they are...
The church teachings never, ever, ever, ask us to judge our neighbor (mormon, non-mormon alike) for the purpose of condemning them. We are taught to love our neighbor.
Judging others is an act of human weakness and not a doctrine.
Charles | 6:04 p.m. Sept. 5, 2007
Dale, I don't see anyone unaccepting of your beliefs. In fact, it seems to
be a lot the other way, ex-mo's are judgmental and pushing their beliefs on
those they used to associate with. Then the name calling of 'blind
sheep', not loving their neighbors, etc. all come out.
Dale, I don't see much love from you in your comments. I see quite the opposite. I see a lot of judging from you about LDS members and their beliefs.
People vote for people because of the similarities they have, like it or not. You vote for people who you think are similar to you. It's very simple. It has nothing to do with religious beliefs except for the fact that people are what they believe. You are your beliefs. Rocky is his. If we clash on things because of those beliefs so be it. If we agree on things because of those beliefs so be it.
You also misstate beliefs of the LDS Church. If you don't believe them, don't ridicule them or misstate them. Why? Because you don't understand them. If you believe what the LDS Church teaches, then you believe that Christ said that the LDS Church is the only true and living church on the earth. No human claimed it, Christ did. If you want to argue with Him, have at it. But if I believe it, I'm not going to deny it.
Do you ask the Catholics, Baptists, Protestants to denounce that they believe they are the only true church? They all do you know.
You just seem to be offended easily and look for things to continue the great divide. I refuse to live my life that way.
Based on your comments, you could be related to Rocky. Are you?
Dale, I don't see much love from you in your comments. I see quite the opposite. I see a lot of judging from you about LDS members and their beliefs.
People vote for people because of the similarities they have, like it or not. You vote for people who you think are similar to you. It's very simple. It has nothing to do with religious beliefs except for the fact that people are what they believe. You are your beliefs. Rocky is his. If we clash on things because of those beliefs so be it. If we agree on things because of those beliefs so be it.
You also misstate beliefs of the LDS Church. If you don't believe them, don't ridicule them or misstate them. Why? Because you don't understand them. If you believe what the LDS Church teaches, then you believe that Christ said that the LDS Church is the only true and living church on the earth. No human claimed it, Christ did. If you want to argue with Him, have at it. But if I believe it, I'm not going to deny it.
Do you ask the Catholics, Baptists, Protestants to denounce that they believe they are the only true church? They all do you know.
You just seem to be offended easily and look for things to continue the great divide. I refuse to live my life that way.
Based on your comments, you could be related to Rocky. Are you?
to ex-SL'er | 6:49 p.m. Sept. 5, 2007
If you had a clue, just a small one, you'd know that Rocky thinks he runs
the state. If Rocky would just stick to politics within Salt Lake, no one would
say a word. But since he doesn't, he's fair game.
But you would only know that if you weren't an EX-Salt Laker.
As for Romney, he is so heads and shoulders above the rest of the field the dust has settled that he left behind. It's not even close.
If you choose to not vote for Romney for a real reason, so be it. If you choose to not vote for him based on your 'enlightened' intellect reflected in your nonsense written above, then you are pretty shallow my friend.
But you would only know that if you weren't an EX-Salt Laker.
As for Romney, he is so heads and shoulders above the rest of the field the dust has settled that he left behind. It's not even close.
If you choose to not vote for Romney for a real reason, so be it. If you choose to not vote for him based on your 'enlightened' intellect reflected in your nonsense written above, then you are pretty shallow my friend.
To AB | 8:20 p.m. Sept. 5, 2007
My question wasn't an accusation. It was intended as thought provoking.
This is a joke | 8:29 p.m. Sept. 5, 2007
I never knew that so many juveniles responded to short sighted letters. All
people of all denominations, including the LDS, add flavor and diversity to Salt
Lake City. As voters, we elect who represents us and therefore, nobody can
IMPOSE their standards upon us. If we concentrated more on doing what we believe
is best for our city rather than blaming others and overgeneralizing, we might
actually get something accomplished. We will never agree on everything, but we
can be friendly to one another, respect each others opinions, and move forward.
billyum | 1:21 a.m. Sept. 6, 2007
If Utah had been settled by Gays or people of color during the 19th Century,
instead of Mormons, I venture to say that Rocky would be cheering in the aisles,
telling us about the virtues of pluralism and diversity, and holding it up an an
example of minority empowerment.
Martin | 2:53 a.m. Sept. 6, 2007
Houston, my view is that we should be tolerant towards others beliefs that do
not impose on us, or force us to change our lives. Therefore, if you are
Catholic, Baptist, LDS, atheist, Republican, Democrat or whatever, I should be
tolerant. If you want to bomb my office, be violent towards my family, try and
force me to adopt your beliefs etc. etc, then I won't be at all tolerant of
that, You're right, too much tolerance can lead to apathy (and we have
plenty of that where I am) but I don't think that's what this debate
is about. It's about what I see as on one hand, a resentment of some non
LDS people in Utah towards the mormon dominance of a lot of things in the state
(since the state is over 70% LDS, hardly surprising), and on the other hand, an
unrealistic expectation of some LDS people in Utah that everyone should adhere
to their beliefs (hopefully, only a small percetage of the above number). Utah
has so much to offer that it saddens me to see such a wonderful place becoming
divided unnecessarily. People don't need to agree on everything to live
together with peace and respect.
Bryant Ford | 7:42 a.m. Sept. 6, 2007
Rocky has possed as being tolerant when in fact he has been intolerant. Issues
should be judge on their merit not on whether they are proposed by the LDS
Church. He wants to take on the church no matter what their position. It is no
wonder the down town has become a ghost town under his anti LDS life style
promotion.
I still see stupid people | 9:35 a.m. Sept. 6, 2007
I do agree that Rocky is way over the top and is using negative approaches to
get his voice heard. However, the people of Salt Lake City have elected a
democratic liberal mayor for years and its not likely to change. The majority
of you posting on here do not live in Salt Lake City and are defending the
church out of obligation. The facts remain....the church is not the only kid on
the block and we all need to live in harmony without the expectation that one
should conform to the other. So I say to all of you...both LDS and non...GROW
UP AND GET ALONG. There will always be Mormons here and there will always be
Non-LDS, People of Color, Gays, and many other groups that make diversity such a
wonderful thing. The only expectation should be that people can live how they
would like according to law.
Amused Texan | 11:30 a.m. Sept. 6, 2007
As a former Utah resident, please allow me to comment on one of the side topics
discussed here. Apparently not much has changed since I moved away 12 years
ago... when there seemed to be constant complaining and griping about Utah
liqour laws. Maybe most Utahns don't travel much, or at least not enough
to know that in the south and southeast things are even more restrictive. I
live in a Dallas suburb in what's known as a "dry" county. That
means the sale of even beer and wine is not allowed. I think most
"tourists" who actually travel from some places other thasn Nevada and
California understand there are different alcohol nuances in different states.
It's just not a big deal.
WOW | 1:01 p.m. Sept. 6, 2007
I cannot believe the number of grammatical errors in these comments.
What's happened to education in this country?
Robert Keiser | 1:29 p.m. Sept. 6, 2007
Complain, Complain, The good people of the LDS Church that live in Salt Lake
City keep electing this fool. Just look at the past years that he has been in
office and at all the good he has done for the City Of Salt Lake. You expect to
much from a card carring member of the ACLU. Quite complaining and just elect
some one else,DUH!!!!!!!!!!!
Al | 1:35 p.m. Sept. 6, 2007
Please stop complaining if you think Utah is different or this place (SLC)
should be following the mainstream. Let it go and live to the best of it.
It's a waste to be discussing and entertaining subject like Rocky is
anti-LDS. SO WHAT...who is he anyway...just a mayor.
mark | 1:36 p.m. Sept. 6, 2007
Well actually, Amused Texan, I do see it as a big deal, when you still have
counties in 21st century America that base their laws on religious theology.
This country is going backwards, and it is sad and dangerous. I for one see the
true danger to the USA as fundemental religious adherants, and no they are not
the fringe, they are majority. This is evidenced by the majority of this country
that do not believe in rationality, and logic, that treat science as just
opinion. That do not understand how science even works. That use it as a talking
point.
It is depressing to see what the current administration has done to science. And before you ask what they have done, study the issue.
We have veered away from an age of rationality and are sliding toward a dark age. Do you really think there is much difference between the religious of this country and the people that support the theocracies of the Middle East?
The main reason countries of the Middle East have been left behind is because of their reliance on religious superstition in running their governments. Do we really want to go down the same road?
It is depressing to see what the current administration has done to science. And before you ask what they have done, study the issue.
We have veered away from an age of rationality and are sliding toward a dark age. Do you really think there is much difference between the religious of this country and the people that support the theocracies of the Middle East?
The main reason countries of the Middle East have been left behind is because of their reliance on religious superstition in running their governments. Do we really want to go down the same road?
saddened | 2:13 p.m. Sept. 6, 2007
I am so heart-broken by everything I'm reading on here. The idea of telling
someone to leave this state because they aren't LDS and don't agree
with some of it's teachings is, to me, absolutely disgusting.
Wow! | 4:02 p.m. Sept. 6, 2007
Don't like Rocky, don't understand how he continued to get elected.
However, the venom in these comments is mind boggling to me. I could only read
for 10 minutes because most of the comments are irrational. Why do people spend
(waste) their time like this instead of making a difference being involved in a
good cause? Deseret News, I vote get rid of the comments.
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I talked to him once on the radio. I asked why he opened up the whole �sale of the city block issue� if it was a done deal when he came in. His response was that he didn't think it was right to sell it and that in no other city of the US could an institution purchase an entire city block. He then spoke of building bridges between city residents and how important he saw that to be.
I have no reason to question his motives any more than any other politician. He holds different beliefs than I do and I am sure that on some he is right and I am wrong. I find ways that my viewpoints are wrong as I go through life too. (I did look up to see if any city block have been sold, and indeed it does happen.)
As best I can judge Rocky is in line with his ACLU background and likes to have opportunities to make a positive difference in line with his values. Can�t blame him for that.
I do differ with Rocky's approach to handling the religion issue. I see nothing in the behavior of the church leaders that gives evidence of meddling in political affairs. I think that this is a straw man argument (as is commonly used in politics). I can't blame him for being frustrated with a nearly unified front when going against Mormon city council members, but I think that has to do with uniform values and backgrounds(both in experience and religion).
That is the job Rocky signed up to tackle. I just hope he remembers that he brings his values, beliefs and 'Religion' to the table as well. When we see ourselves in others we start to build bridges.