Deseret News | Couples pucker up to make positive point

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Couples pucker up to make positive point

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John Pack Lambert | 12:23 p.m. July 13, 2009

A supportive note to Paul S.,
I really appreciate your posts.
It appears that there are too many parks in downtown Salt Lake City and so people can't keep them straight. The Church has done too much to beutify the area, so people get confused about the details behind the various projects.
I had a roommate whose in-laws who were not members became more sympathetic to the Church after seeing the tactics used by the protestors on the plaza.
One more tought, I think the real reason the ACLU waited until after the plaza was finnished to bring suit was because they much prefered to protest in a park than on a street where they had to watch for cars.

Sam BeGoode | 12:26 p.m. July 13, 2009

Whatsoever you do to the least of my brethren - so you do unto me. Judge not, lest ye be judged. Before worrying about the splinter in your brother's eye, take the plank out of your own. Turn the other cheek. Love others as well as you love yourself. Why are these commandments so routinely broken by Christians?

@john pack lambert | 12:45 p.m. July 13, 2009

Wait I don’t understand something John if the LDS church is a religious institution why are the in the for profit sector of running malls. Oh that’s right they are "separate" until you need to argue they "do pay taxes" silly me. by the way this is the third time I have tried to make a comment about the churches little slight of hand when it comes to this but funny thing the DN keeps failing to post it. Oh that’s right they are another for profit owned by the LDS church. well probably wont see this one posted either but at least the moderator gets another point of view.

Comments continue below

to brother chuck | 12:48 p.m. July 13, 2009

the day you only have "one more thought" will be the day.

To Thanks You - Pres. Monson | 12:54 p.m. July 13, 2009

And Thank YOU for showing how discriminatory YOU are. Until the day where members of the Church come onto YOUR property to show acts of hate, mind your own business and get on with your life. Go ahead and find something else to cry about

Get a life, k? | 1:12 p.m. July 13, 2009

A lot of comments on here are stating that the Church "Attacked" the Gay/lesbian communities? How so? Because they didn't give in and go against everything they stand for regarding gay marriage? Well, if that is what you concider "attacking" What do you call the kind of hatred that is coming from you? It seems to me that all of the "attacking" has come from anti-LDS people who feel the need to step onto church property and cause unnessesary disturbances. When the day comes that they are actually in front of your homes wearing their stupid little pink hearts protesting some stupid issue, then you will have something to complain about

Really.. | 1:33 p.m. July 13, 2009

A "Kiss-in"? Really? 60 people attended? What a joke...

Waste | 2:52 p.m. July 13, 2009

This is what LDS did. They went out and won support for their position on Gay Marriage. They fought and won the support they needed in California and passed the bill. This is what the Gay community did, they had a tantrum because they lost and now want to break the law to show their disapproval. Basically blaming everyone for why they lost. Gays are working hard with stunts like this so next time this comes to a vote they can have even less support then they currently have.

Anonymous | 2:54 p.m. July 13, 2009

These two kissing dudes knew exactly what they were doing. It is not like they did not understand the LDS church's stance on the gay situation. They were there to make a statement. The church doesn't force its values on all people, they had the right to chose to react however they wanted, but remember there are consequences to actions. There has to be an accountability factor here. Those gay men got what they chose, that was thier choice. They knew what they were doing. This was not ignorance. This was a slap in the face.

re: What the solution will be | 2:56 p.m. July 13, 2009

The church isn't standing against "gay" men, it's standing against "gay" behavior. Each person has a CHOICE as to what behavior to engage in, so there is no hate directed toward any individuals, which would be wrong if there was.

Naruto | 3:02 p.m. July 13, 2009

Isn't all this controversy fun!!!?
I'm not mormon but I'm glad I live here, so much entertainment! It's like everyone that lives here acts like teenagers!

Does anyone | 3:16 p.m. July 13, 2009

Does anyone have a list of all LDS properties and businesses so I can take my money somewhere else?

Positve Point???? | 3:21 p.m. July 13, 2009

What was positive about this demonstration? Trespassing on private property to stick your finger in the eye of the church? Trying to bread discont and discord among individuals? I don't see anything positive about this.

re - Positve Point???? 3:21 p.m | 4:05 p.m. July 13, 2009

the positive point was showing the stuffy mormons that even when 2 women make out in the street in front of the church, the sky doesn't open and the world doesn't fall apart.

so all your paranoia about gays is just your little willy-nilly way of trying to make everyone just like you. And you know what? no one wants to be like you. what a boring place the world would be if we were just like you....

andrea | 4:19 p.m. July 13, 2009

You wouldn't go to a Jewish Synagogue and start eating pork would you? And if you did no one would blame them for asking you to leave. If they wanted to kiss, they only had to walk out of church property and no one would care. People need to understand that the church isn't a democracy. You can protest all you want but God isn't going to change his mind just because you disagree.

Hey Noorvik: | 4:28 p.m. July 13, 2009

It's true the church doesn't pay taxes on all of it's holdings. But they more than make up for it with the millions upon millions they contribute annually in Humanitarian relief, both in materials and volunteer manpower hours.

BTW, Gay rights organizations are non-profit and don't pay taxes either yet I don't remember hearing about them sending thousands of volunteers or millions of dollars in food, clothing, etc during the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina. Why aren't you clammering for them to pay their fair share of taxes?! They don't contribute anything to make the world a better place, they apparently just go around causing trouble for others.

Dear Jeff: | 4:42 p.m. July 13, 2009

You Moron. The Mormon Church didn't turn this into a political issue. The publicity seeking idiot gay guys with the hidden agenda did.

The church didn't call a press conference or attempt to further antagonize the situation by organizing a protest rally the next day.

Did a bunch of missionaries show up at the 2 gay guys house and start reading "The Family: A Proclamation to the World" by megaphone while standing in their front yard? Or circle up hand in hand and start singing, "I am a Child of God" or "Keep the Commandments"?

A public plaza on private property is just that, private. Using the word "Public" doesn't give you the right to behave boorishly, inappropriately or in bad taste. If you go to a public park or a school playground you have rules to follow, if you walk through naked, drinking alcohol or shouting profanities, you will be asked to leave. it's not that hard to figure out.

and who cares about Europeans? They have nothing to do with anything.

Arizona | 4:45 p.m. July 13, 2009

Well, OF COURSE it was staged!

They were filming for Bruno II.

Oh brother.... | 5:18 p.m. July 13, 2009

I'm sick of people attacking the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints because of their position on homosexuality. Temple Square security politely asked the gay couple to refrain from their behavior. Instead, they decided to make a demonstration out of it. They made a scene and shouted obscenities. Perhaps security blew the whole situation out of proportion, but remember that this is private property. This means that you need to follow certain guidelines. Clearly the gay couple was at fault.

Re: Does anyone | 3:16 | 5:24 p.m. July 13, 2009

Yes, I agree. Lets get a list. Then I can make sure I spend my money at LDS owned businesses. And while we are at it I'd like to get a list of businesses that support gay rights so I can make sure I don't spend my money there.

To Naruto | 5:27 p.m. July 13, 2009

That includes you. I think it is funny when Utahans make fun of Utahans. You are making fun of yourself. hahahahahah

Paul S. | 5:31 p.m. July 13, 2009

Well Philly

Come to the table with facts and not your unitelligible drivel, and you won't have to be put in your place.

You're Gay and you don't like the fact that the LDS Church does not condone your way of life.

Don't pretend you know what you are talking about regarding the Church Plaza when you don't. When you state falsehoods, expect to be challenged.

Live and let live, I say.

The gauntlet was thrown down by 2 gay guys who sought and attained an altercation. The provacaters here was not the Church but your buddies.

If anyone arrives on your porch and you ask them to leave, I will will defend your right with you, to have them arrested for trespassing.

Private property is sacred is this Country. Respect it, no matter who it belongs to, or be held accountable. That applies to everyone of us.

pat | 6:06 p.m. July 13, 2009

I am sure there are many good people who are gay. I have a feeling though that those who were heading up this happening on Temple Square were paid radicals not Gays wanting to stir up trouble.
Sad but true this happens quite often in other incidents.

Waste | 6:42 p.m. July 13, 2009

Religion is not a democracy. We do not get to vote on what we are going to follow. Either you are down with it or you find a new gig. If their bible tells them homosexuality is wrong that's the end of discussion no changing their minds. You would no more want them trying to go to your place of work or your home trying to change your mind to save your soul. Just like they do not want you trying to educate them to the benefits of the Gay lifestyle. This is not a dictatorship and people are not obliged to support homosexuality. We are in a democracy so we can always agree to disagree and leave it at that. And that means they can fight for their side just as you can fight for yours.

Funny Stuff | 6:44 p.m. July 13, 2009

This is so funny....

Re: Does anyone | 3:16 | 5:24 p.m. July 13, 2009
Yes, I agree. Lets get a list. Then I can make sure I spend my money at LDS owned businesses. And while we are at it I'd like to get a list of businesses that support gay rights so I can make sure I don't spend my money there.

OK | 8:44 p.m. July 13, 2009

Gay Rights Peaceful Demonstration - What an Oxymoron

Waste | 5:01 a.m. July 14, 2009

People might wonder why churches are not more vocal of the Gay lifestyle. I am pretty sure I know the most vocal protest against that lifestyle are the Gays themselves you just sit back let them be them and enjoy the show. You just cue up tape like those two gentlemen and you just say enough said.

I cannot believe they refuse to learn from history and how others have conducted civil rights fights. Oh well those that do not learn from history are doomed to not only repeat it but in all likely hood fail. History smimish we got our own way.

Matthew S | 6:09 a.m. July 14, 2009

Maybe it is time for the city of Salt Lake to use its power of eminent domain to relieve the church of said plaza

awsomeron | 6:19 a.m. July 14, 2009

Our House. Our Rules. Follow The Rules. No Displays of Public Affection on the Plaza, Means Just That.

You cannot warm up your Hetro Honey for the trip back to the Marriot either.

The Church wants the area Uptight and Affection Out of Sight.

It is Church Property, bought and Paid for, Plain and Simple.

The couple was asked to leave, then they needed to leave.

Common Since should have said to simply leave them alone and let them move on through the Plaza. However The Church did Nothing Wrong in asking them to leave or having them arrested when they did Not Leave.

They where Breaking The Rules which I assume are Posted Somewhere.

Why I would want to be Gay, and live in Utah is beyond me, but that is the couples legal right. However they cannot break the Rules Gay or Not.

Most people to include me should have better things to do then even be remotely concerned about this topic.

AOL Says it was 100 people. They have thousands of comments none of them mine, because their board moves way to fast.

Waste | 8:56 a.m. July 14, 2009

"Maybe it is time for the city of Salt Lake to use its power of eminent domain to relieve the church of said plaza" Maybe it's time the state used its power of eminent domain and relieve the LGBT organizations of their buildings. Or maybe they can foreclose on all houses owned by Gays???? Yeah is that discrimination yes it is just like the state using eminent domain on that church is discrimination. Remember do onto others as you would have them do onto you. The church respects your right to believe as you do and to fight for it. But when the church does the same they are not afforded the same respect.

I believed | 10:38 a.m. July 14, 2009

it would be a "little bit of Paris" just like they said. Silly me.

Anonymous | 10:44 a.m. July 14, 2009

To Waste,

How is depriving gays and lesbians of equal protection under the law "respecting" their rights to believe AND LIVE as they would like???

You Mormons have the most twisted logic I have ever seen!

Anonymous | 10:51 a.m. July 14, 2009

To John Pack Lambert,

"I had a roommate whose in-laws who were not members became more sympathetic to the Church after seeing the tactics used by the protestors on the plaza."

That's funny. I was an active, Temple-recommend-holding member of the Church until I saw how the Church is attacking the civil liberties of gays and lesbians. Now I am much more sympathetic to gays and lesbians and am thinking I don't want to waste my time in a Church filled with bigots.

Anonymous | 11:19 a.m. July 14, 2009

I am an active member of the LDS Church, and I support this "kiss-in". I don't believe the actions of LDS security were appropriate. I would much rather see a public display of affection between two men than a public display of bigotry.

Anonymous | 11:38 a.m. July 14, 2009

good anonymous, because us bigots didn't want you to waste your time with us either. I guess everybody is happy then?

really? | 11:40 a.m. July 14, 2009

This private property argument is tired and ill-informed. If you provide public access to your private property, you can't then discriminate either in policy or in application of it. Businesses own (or at least own the rights to use) their buildings. Is it legal -- not to mention moral -- to prohibit black people from eating at your private diner? No. This isn't any different.

Anonymous | 12:15 p.m. July 14, 2009

Do Utahans have a basic understanding of law?

"...I think the real reason the ACLU waited until after the plaza was finished to bring suit was because they much preferred to protest in a park than on a street where they had to watch for cars."

Could the reason have been the UCLU has no cause for a suit until the plaza was built. You can't sues for what hasn't happened anymore than you can't be arrested until you commit a crime.

You have a group that purchases an public easement over 150 years old. No other church in Utah or our nation has been able to do this. You wonder why those you oppress don't like you.

I feel more empathy for the people of Missouri daily. Mormons can't get a long with others. They lack empathy to others.

This is getting ridiculous | 12:37 p.m. July 14, 2009

Comparing this incident to racial discrimination in a private diner is unnecessary and a bad argument. Doesn't the Church allow everyone to see Temple Square regardless of their race, religion, or sexual orientation? Yes. This IS different. Once the gay couple didn't adhere to the property's guidelines, they gave up the privilege to be there.
Also, why do people always turn incidents where they assume the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints is at fault into a bashing frenzy? If others who commented only knew how much it hurts when they call my church "a Church full of bigots."

Waste | 12:44 p.m. July 14, 2009

Anonymous Mormons are not in Government at any level. There is a separation of church and state so they are litteraly in capable of that charge. You are basically lying on them. They cannot deny you of anything they do not have the power to do. Which individual right have they denied you of Anonymous? Name me one thing the law specifically says you cannot do that someone else can do? I.E vote? What about the right to assemble? What about the right to fair trial? Maybe they are allowed to speak to their representatives and you can't? Maybe they are allowed to petition the people for their support and you can't? Maybe they are allowed to raise money for their cause and you can't? Help me out here or are you just throwing a tantrum spouting off talking points? Show me the exact law in the constitution tell me what amendment or shut it...

Dear Waste, | 1:01 p.m. July 14, 2009

Thank you.

Anonymous | 1:08 p.m. July 14, 2009

"Comparing this incident to racial discrimination in a private diner is unnecessary and a bad argument. Doesn't the Church allow everyone to see Temple Square regardless of their race, religion, or sexual orientation? Yes. This IS different. Once the gay couple didn't adhere to the property's guidelines, they gave up the privilege to be there."

Let's compare it to the white only lunch counter. Blacks could use the luncheonette too, but not the same way that whites could.

Heterosexuals kiss and hug all the time in the plaza. It is only the gays that must walk through without holding hands or kissing.

See?

Anonymous | 1:13 p.m. July 14, 2009

" Which individual right have they denied you of "

How about the Full Faith and Credit Clause (Article IV, Section 1, US Constitution.)

I have been married in Massachusetts yet I am denied the privilege of enjoying the benefits of that union here in Utah. Totally unconstitutional, yes?

Anonymous | 1:16 p.m. July 14, 2009

If church security asks all couples to stop kissing, than it may be heavy-handed but its not really an issue. But, if they only ask same-sex couples to stop kissing, than its discrimination.

I really don't understand why the LDS church continues to give itself a black eye over this issue. Same-sex marriage is coming: look at the public opinion by age group. A decade or two from now the church will be embarrassed about its anti-gay stance and will try to spin, deny or cover it up.

To Anonymous at 1:08 pm | 1:49 p.m. July 14, 2009

You have a point, but you are forgetting that Temple Square has the right to set their guidelines. Whether you like it or not, what the Church did was completely appropriate.

Anonymous @ 1:16 pm, the Church will never back down on it's view of the family. You also say that the Church is "anti-gay." You make it sound like the Church hates gays, which they don't. They simply believe that the family is essential and marriage should be between a man and a woman. If you don't like Utah's definition of a civil union, there are several states that will recognize your rights. I don't have anything against gay people. I just don't approve of their choice of sexuality.

Joe | 1:58 p.m. July 14, 2009

I know my taxes are used to promote homosexuality and gay pride in liberal dominated Salt Lake City, but I still should have the right to go there, on private property,and not have my children visually raped by those who would force us to watch and explain their homoSEXUAL activities. You're free to do what you want in your rooms, but the LDS people still have some dwindling rights. And, while our rights to free speech have been taken away by the ACLU and other hateful activists (even in the deserts of Wyoming, on property which we have leased with no people for miles, Big Brother is still watching and censoring out religion, while on and around our property people freely vandalize, desecrate, and disrupt with malice-megaphones)yet, we still own property, and, have a small right to request that people not participate in SOME hateful, sexual, and other activities on our property. (And, if you think they were there because they love Mormons you have a lot to learn.) I can't see the "positive" message in lawberaking and promoting the intended hatred against Mormons that you see here in the comment section.

Yeah! | 2:09 p.m. July 14, 2009

Looks like this gay couple got exactly what they were looking for...
1- Their names in the papers.
2- Sparking up the controversy again over gay rights.
I would say with all the hoo-hah that has been done about this story, it was well worth their time.

Waste | 2:49 p.m. July 14, 2009

The church is no more discriminating against you then Robert who has 10 wives or Ned who is married to his estranged sister Nilda. They do not believe in Polygamy, Incest, Homosexuality, and a whole host of other things.

You cannot even claim a protect status as a group until you can prove scientifically how I would tell if a new born baby is Gay or not. Maybe you can answer why 20 and 30 year old people say I thought I was Gay but then I found out I like women too. I have seen the questions myself and had no answer.

The truth be told no one is for sure how sexuality is determined. So calling yourself a group is putting the cart before the horse. First you need to be able to tell us how you can tell if people are Gay.

Anonymous | 3:05 p.m. July 14, 2009

Please read the police report. They thought they were on public property. They did not know that they were being confronted by security guards at first. They admit that they became agressive in their speech. They had seen plenty of other couples hug and kiss and thought they were being singled out for being gay. They admit they had been drinking, but NO ONE was arrested for being drunk.

Anonymous | 3:10 p.m. July 14, 2009

" If you don't like Utah's definition of a civil union, there are several states that will recognize your rights."

Utah does NOT have civil unions! They will not even pass non discrimination legislation.

Either you have rights by the US Constitution, or you don't. The constitution says that every state must honor the public acts, records and judicial proceedings of every other state. Tell me why this is not happening...

Solution | 3:28 p.m. July 14, 2009

Put a Sign up saying No Same Sex Affection of any Kind allowed. Either that or wall the doggone thing up.

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6 photos

Brendan Sullivan, Deseret News

Frank Armstrong, left, Daniel Lara, former Salt Lake Councilwoman Deeda Seed and Laura Bradford take part in "kiss-in'' Sunday near Main Street Plaza.

Gallery (6 photos)