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2 men cited in trespassing on LDS plaza
231 comments | Read story
Who will shop there? | 12:20 p.m. July 13, 2009
Not great advertising for the upcoming City Creek Center Mall across the street.
John Pack Lambert | 12:39 p.m. July 13, 2009
I again, as I have many times before, call for a restricted name use
policy.
I did not make the 12:49 AM comment on July 12th. I was in bed at that point since it was 2:49 then.
I know some people accuse me of being a liar or a winer, but I do not appreciate people stealing my identity.
Have I ever stated I think "the homosexual" should be banned from property. I try to even avoid this phrase, for it is a false one. Homosexual describes behavior not a state of being.
While people struggle with same-gender attraction, that does not make them homosexual.
I really do not appreciate whoever is stealing my name and trying to force false words into my mouth.
My only consolation is that they do it in ways that are so obviously out of line.
It is amazing to me how meanspirited some of the comments are here.
I did not make the 12:49 AM comment on July 12th. I was in bed at that point since it was 2:49 then.
I know some people accuse me of being a liar or a winer, but I do not appreciate people stealing my identity.
Have I ever stated I think "the homosexual" should be banned from property. I try to even avoid this phrase, for it is a false one. Homosexual describes behavior not a state of being.
While people struggle with same-gender attraction, that does not make them homosexual.
I really do not appreciate whoever is stealing my name and trying to force false words into my mouth.
My only consolation is that they do it in ways that are so obviously out of line.
It is amazing to me how meanspirited some of the comments are here.
RE: Native Utahn | 12:42 p.m. July 13, 2009
So Native Utahn...if brokeback mountain were goin' on in your front yard
and you asked them to leave and they didn't you wouldn't call the
cops?
This isn't a gay rights issue but a private property issue. If you don't leave when asked to you can be charged with trespassing.
And by the way, the main street plaza is the Church's own "private kingdom". That's the beauty of property rights.
This isn't a gay rights issue but a private property issue. If you don't leave when asked to you can be charged with trespassing.
And by the way, the main street plaza is the Church's own "private kingdom". That's the beauty of property rights.
Comments continue below
Yvonne | 12:43 p.m. July 13, 2009
These men were obviously trying to get on the news, they were actually making
out heavily, no peck on the cheek. The plaza is a place that is full of
families, many with small children. Most people do not want their children
exposed to homosexual behaviors, especially when they are very young. The
security guards asked the men to leave, they refused and became beligerant.
Only then were they handcuffed and police called. The Homosexual agenda has
shown their true colors already, with vandalism and violence. They are the ones
who are trying to force their views on everyone else. They went to an LDS owned
property and began very inappropriate behavior to try to force their views on
the people there. Religious freedom is under attack, and the militant
homosexuals areleading the charge.
Stone caster | 12:56 p.m. July 13, 2009
I agree that THE church can set the rules on Their property.
Though, Outsider @ 4:38 p.m. on July 11, 2009 said it best,"... You are so intolerant of anything that does not conform to your really weird beliefs, you will do anything to rid yourselves of anyone you deem unworthy." ... "I am just a man who is embarassed to know that there is a place where religion has warped so many people."
Funny things happen when one group has been in power for so long it warps their collective perspective. The outlandish and juvenile behavior of the so-called oppressed and/or minority is equally shameful.
Blind conformity and willing anti-social behavior are the ultimate sins.
Though, Outsider @ 4:38 p.m. on July 11, 2009 said it best,"... You are so intolerant of anything that does not conform to your really weird beliefs, you will do anything to rid yourselves of anyone you deem unworthy." ... "I am just a man who is embarassed to know that there is a place where religion has warped so many people."
Funny things happen when one group has been in power for so long it warps their collective perspective. The outlandish and juvenile behavior of the so-called oppressed and/or minority is equally shameful.
Blind conformity and willing anti-social behavior are the ultimate sins.
s.a. | 1:06 p.m. July 13, 2009
It is private property. It had nothing to do with the fact that these men were
gay. They were asked to leave. And they didn't. ANd then they started using
profanity. Security was allowed to act the way they did. It's not about
these people being gay. I hope that security would do the same thing if they saw
two heterosexuals engaging in the same disruptive behavior. It's WHAT they
were doing, not who they were.
sutton | 1:14 p.m. July 13, 2009
S. A first of all how do you know they used profanities???
Secondly... I have no problem with the church kicking these men off their property. I do though have a problem with the church lying... Hetero couples kiss, hold hands, ect... all the time, with "NO" issues what-so-ever and anyone who says otherwise has their pants on fire.
I would have had more respect for the church if they would have just said we don't allow Homosexual behavior... at least it's honest.
Secondly... I have no problem with the church kicking these men off their property. I do though have a problem with the church lying... Hetero couples kiss, hold hands, ect... all the time, with "NO" issues what-so-ever and anyone who says otherwise has their pants on fire.
I would have had more respect for the church if they would have just said we don't allow Homosexual behavior... at least it's honest.
ktothel | 1:21 p.m. July 13, 2009
RE: sutton
We know they used profanity because that's what the statement from the Church spokesman said. Did you not read the article?
We know they used profanity because that's what the statement from the Church spokesman said. Did you not read the article?
KtotheL | 1:27 p.m. July 13, 2009
RE: John Pack Lambert
Sorry that people have been using your name, but you kinda made it really easy. Sometimes a little anonymity when posting is a good idea....just sayin'
Sorry that people have been using your name, but you kinda made it really easy. Sometimes a little anonymity when posting is a good idea....just sayin'
sa | 1:48 p.m. July 13, 2009
re: sutton
the article says they used profanities. i didnt say the church does kick heterosexuals off the property. i just said that i would support that too! not too many people are that big of fans of pda.
the article says they used profanities. i didnt say the church does kick heterosexuals off the property. i just said that i would support that too! not too many people are that big of fans of pda.
Re: Yvonne | 2:15 p.m. July 13, 2009
Great comment. Glad my children where not around.
Arizona | 4:46 p.m. July 13, 2009
Well, OF COURSE it was staged!
They were filming for Bruno II.
They were filming for Bruno II.
To "To hey tourist" | 8:28 p.m. July 13, 2009
You really think people actually want to visit Utah??!?!?! Hahahaha! Come on!
You're joking. Right? Joking?
Jazz fan | 9:06 p.m. July 13, 2009
They were Laker fans! lol
Dear Miind Readers | 4:23 a.m. July 14, 2009
I read the story several times and nowhere does it say they were pushed to the
ground. It also doesn't state in the article how affectionate they were.
As a former missionary serving at Temple Square I had to ask on a number of
occasions for people to leave who where getting a little too excessive in their
display of affection. It was way beyong a kiss and a hug. There is a time and
a place for such affection. IT is private property and the Church has its
standards as to what it appropriate on their property. I would have the same
rights on my property if two gays came onto my property and started doing that.
Such behavior by a gay person violates those standards.
I have dealt with people similar to this as a school administrator. You make a simple request for a student to move on to class or they will be late and they stop and argue and complain, and become belligerent. Then they challenge you to do something to justify their actions.
I have dealt with people similar to this as a school administrator. You make a simple request for a student to move on to class or they will be late and they stop and argue and complain, and become belligerent. Then they challenge you to do something to justify their actions.
Anonymous | 10:55 a.m. July 14, 2009
To Dear Miind Readers,
"There is a time and a place for such affection. IT is private property and the Church has its standards as to what it appropriate on their property. I would have the same rights on my property if two gays came onto my property and started doing that."
Do you openly invite the general public to come and visit your property? No. But the Church DOES! The Church actively advertises for people to come to Temple Square! The Church has missionaries - like you used to be - who solicit people to come in and look around!
If your Church is going to welcome people and solicit people and invite people onto their property, you are going to have to tolerate a wide variety of behaviors from those people.
If you don't like all the "bad behavior", then STOP RECRUITING AND INVITING AND SOLICITING PEOPLE TO COME ONTO YOUR PROPERTY!
"There is a time and a place for such affection. IT is private property and the Church has its standards as to what it appropriate on their property. I would have the same rights on my property if two gays came onto my property and started doing that."
Do you openly invite the general public to come and visit your property? No. But the Church DOES! The Church actively advertises for people to come to Temple Square! The Church has missionaries - like you used to be - who solicit people to come in and look around!
If your Church is going to welcome people and solicit people and invite people onto their property, you are going to have to tolerate a wide variety of behaviors from those people.
If you don't like all the "bad behavior", then STOP RECRUITING AND INVITING AND SOLICITING PEOPLE TO COME ONTO YOUR PROPERTY!
ask yourselves ... | 4:46 p.m. July 14, 2009
Why don't we see stories about the Mormons going to gathering places for
Gays? Does it happen?
Why aren't the Mormons publishing the names and location of individual supporters of Gay lifestyles?
Do the Mormons claim the members are perfect in following it's teachings?
Did these 2 young men not realize they were on temple square in SLC? How can ANYone in SLC possibly not know the Mormons position on basic issues?
Did the Security Guards say "Gays are not allowed to kiss here?"
Has anyone ever noticed the standards the Mormons expect of their own members at other properties (BYU campus', meetinghouses, etc)?
How did this situation move from "please leave" to "you're under arrest?"
If Gays hate the Mormons so much why were they there? If my wife and I were on someone's property that I knew didn't like my lifestyle, I wouldn't feel like kissing. I'd walk around it.
If Mormons are so old fashioned, why is it one of the fastest growing religions in the world?
Just take a few minutes and ask yourself a few of these questions. Do a little research...
Why aren't the Mormons publishing the names and location of individual supporters of Gay lifestyles?
Do the Mormons claim the members are perfect in following it's teachings?
Did these 2 young men not realize they were on temple square in SLC? How can ANYone in SLC possibly not know the Mormons position on basic issues?
Did the Security Guards say "Gays are not allowed to kiss here?"
Has anyone ever noticed the standards the Mormons expect of their own members at other properties (BYU campus', meetinghouses, etc)?
How did this situation move from "please leave" to "you're under arrest?"
If Gays hate the Mormons so much why were they there? If my wife and I were on someone's property that I knew didn't like my lifestyle, I wouldn't feel like kissing. I'd walk around it.
If Mormons are so old fashioned, why is it one of the fastest growing religions in the world?
Just take a few minutes and ask yourself a few of these questions. Do a little research...
Anonymous | 5:19 p.m. July 14, 2009
To ask yourselves ...,
"Why don't we see stories about the Mormons going to gathering places for Gays? Does it happen?"
Because gays are not trying to oppress Mormons with uncivil legislation. Duh.
"Why aren't the Mormons publishing the names and location of individual supporters of Gay lifestyles?"
They just excommunicate them or send them to shock therapy to "un-gay" them!
"If Gays hate the Mormons so much why were they there? If my wife and I were on someone's property that I knew didn't like my lifestyle, I wouldn't feel like kissing. I'd walk around it."
If your wife and you went onto a PUBLIC THOROUGHFARE that had been designated as a PUBLIC EASEMENT for 150 years, and is the shortest route through a part of the city... well, you would go through it! Your comparison is stupid. Are you?
"Why don't we see stories about the Mormons going to gathering places for Gays? Does it happen?"
Because gays are not trying to oppress Mormons with uncivil legislation. Duh.
"Why aren't the Mormons publishing the names and location of individual supporters of Gay lifestyles?"
They just excommunicate them or send them to shock therapy to "un-gay" them!
"If Gays hate the Mormons so much why were they there? If my wife and I were on someone's property that I knew didn't like my lifestyle, I wouldn't feel like kissing. I'd walk around it."
If your wife and you went onto a PUBLIC THOROUGHFARE that had been designated as a PUBLIC EASEMENT for 150 years, and is the shortest route through a part of the city... well, you would go through it! Your comparison is stupid. Are you?
Haven't read all the Comments | 5:40 p.m. July 14, 2009
But Myself and a friend of mine were filming a home video and being a little
loud and "irreverant" by the reflection pond inbetween the temple and
the JS memorial building and the same thing happened to us. We were asked to
leave, argued and got handcuffed and cited.
IMO many posted here are making this more of an issue than it is. There was no hate intended and nothing done wrong on the part of the security guards.
I have close friends who work security on the church grounds and these things happen EVERY day. Why is this a big deal? Because the Gay community makes it one. Check yourselves and start practicing the "stop the hate" that you preach.
IMO many posted here are making this more of an issue than it is. There was no hate intended and nothing done wrong on the part of the security guards.
I have close friends who work security on the church grounds and these things happen EVERY day. Why is this a big deal? Because the Gay community makes it one. Check yourselves and start practicing the "stop the hate" that you preach.
To Anonymous @ 5:19 pm | 5:44 p.m. July 14, 2009
The comparison was definitely not stupid. It was very rude to say that.
By default, you are also saying that Mormons are trying to oppress gays with uncivil legislation. They are NOT! They are defending traditional marriage. Family is one of the most important things. Homosexuality causes the family to be nonexistent. I would definitely not want to be raised by a gay couple. Think of the harassment and ridicule a child would face.
We need to preserve the family in it's true form.
By default, you are also saying that Mormons are trying to oppress gays with uncivil legislation. They are NOT! They are defending traditional marriage. Family is one of the most important things. Homosexuality causes the family to be nonexistent. I would definitely not want to be raised by a gay couple. Think of the harassment and ridicule a child would face.
We need to preserve the family in it's true form.
Re: Anonymous | 10:55 a.m. | 8:54 a.m. July 15, 2009
"If your Church is going to welcome people and solicit people and invite
people onto their property, you are going to have to tolerate a wide variety of
behaviors from those people."
Guess what? Public and national parks, libraries, grocery stores, restaurants, even gas stations, all invite people to come onto their private property, and yet they all have rules of conduct that must be followed while on that property. If you don't follow the rules, they'll ask you to leave, the same as this couple was asked to leave when they didn't follow the rules of etiquette expected on LDS church property.
You don't expect libraries to close their doors to the public just because they expect you to keep your voice down while inside, and you don't get huffy when gas stations demand that you wear shoes and a shirt when you go inside, so why are you complaining about this? There's absolutely no difference. They're all organizations that own private property that is open to the public so long as the public follows basic rules of conduct while visiting the property.
Guess what? Public and national parks, libraries, grocery stores, restaurants, even gas stations, all invite people to come onto their private property, and yet they all have rules of conduct that must be followed while on that property. If you don't follow the rules, they'll ask you to leave, the same as this couple was asked to leave when they didn't follow the rules of etiquette expected on LDS church property.
You don't expect libraries to close their doors to the public just because they expect you to keep your voice down while inside, and you don't get huffy when gas stations demand that you wear shoes and a shirt when you go inside, so why are you complaining about this? There's absolutely no difference. They're all organizations that own private property that is open to the public so long as the public follows basic rules of conduct while visiting the property.
it isn't working | 9:36 a.m. July 15, 2009
Since prop 8 passed the gay agendaists have been grating, annoying, hateful and
flamboyant. Guess what its gotten them. Support for gay marriage has dropped
10 points. Keep it up.
Anonymous | 10:07 a.m. July 15, 2009
The rules of conduct are clearly posted in National Parks and Libraries.
Show me a National Park that will kick you out and cite you for kissing!
Show me a Library that will kick you out for holding hands!
Guess what? Your argument is flawed, just like your bigoted homophobia! I only hope some day your blinders come off and you understand the full weight and import of the fascism in which you are trapped!
Show me a National Park that will kick you out and cite you for kissing!
Show me a Library that will kick you out for holding hands!
Guess what? Your argument is flawed, just like your bigoted homophobia! I only hope some day your blinders come off and you understand the full weight and import of the fascism in which you are trapped!
RE: Anonymous @ 10:07 am | 12:23 p.m. July 15, 2009
I don't recall ever being at a library or national park where the rules of
conduct were CLEARLY posted. If you live in Salt Lake City and you don't
know the standards of the Church, then you must be either very closed-minded or
stupid.
Guess what? Your argument is flawed!
Guess what? Your argument is flawed!
anonymous | 1:01 p.m. July 15, 2009
to: Anthony | 2:19 a.m. July 11, 2009
"You presume, simply because they were gay, that they were trying to "stir something up" and "get on the news"? Isn't that somewhat of a narrow minded assumption?"
what a pathetic argument. yes, it was done intentionally. if gay man throw a mormn out of his retaurant, do you think there would be so much coverage? no. the owner would say it was his property and that the mormon was being inappropriate because he didn't agree with his views. there is nothing big about this incident. it is a horrible excuse to turn two con artists into some kind of victims just because they are gay. gays are always saying how notmal they are, well fine. if they are capable of being decent, they are also capable of being indecent. that was the case here.
"You presume, simply because they were gay, that they were trying to "stir something up" and "get on the news"? Isn't that somewhat of a narrow minded assumption?"
what a pathetic argument. yes, it was done intentionally. if gay man throw a mormn out of his retaurant, do you think there would be so much coverage? no. the owner would say it was his property and that the mormon was being inappropriate because he didn't agree with his views. there is nothing big about this incident. it is a horrible excuse to turn two con artists into some kind of victims just because they are gay. gays are always saying how notmal they are, well fine. if they are capable of being decent, they are also capable of being indecent. that was the case here.
Re: Anonymous 10:07 a.m. | 1:45 p.m. July 15, 2009
Could you please tell me why non-members feel the constant need to explain to
Mormons how they need to wake up and realize how wrong the church is about
everything? Whenever somebody who isn't LDS finds out that I am, they feel
the great urge to sit me down and tell me to read my church's history and
find out the truth, just like you're doing.
Well, I've read the history and I've listened to all the arguments anybody can come up with, and I have found out the truth for myself. That's precisely why I am a member.
Well, I've read the history and I've listened to all the arguments anybody can come up with, and I have found out the truth for myself. That's precisely why I am a member.
Touche | 5:12 p.m. July 15, 2009
To Re: Anonymous 10:07 a.m. | 1:45 p.m.,
Coul YOU please tell me why LDS MEMBERS feel the constant need to explain to non-Mormons how they need to repent and realize how wrong their churches ALL are? Whenever somebody who IS LDS finds out that I am NOT, they feel the great urge to sit me down and tell me to read the Book of Mormon (fiction) and PRAY about it!
Well, I'VE read the Book of Mormon AND the history and I've listened to all the arguments anybody can come up with, and I have found out the truth for myself. THAT'S PRECISELY WHY I AM NOT A MEMBER!
Coul YOU please tell me why LDS MEMBERS feel the constant need to explain to non-Mormons how they need to repent and realize how wrong their churches ALL are? Whenever somebody who IS LDS finds out that I am NOT, they feel the great urge to sit me down and tell me to read the Book of Mormon (fiction) and PRAY about it!
Well, I'VE read the Book of Mormon AND the history and I've listened to all the arguments anybody can come up with, and I have found out the truth for myself. THAT'S PRECISELY WHY I AM NOT A MEMBER!
One Human Family | 7:59 p.m. July 15, 2009
Wow, there sure is a lot of judgement and hatred towards gay people in these
comments! We don't know the whole story, so stop making judgements on what
happened.
If the security guards harrassed this gay couple for a simple kiss on the cheek, then shame on the security guards. If the gay couple was doing something that would also get a heterosexual couple harrassed, then shame on the gay couple.
If the security guards harrassed this gay couple for a simple kiss on the cheek, then shame on the security guards. If the gay couple was doing something that would also get a heterosexual couple harrassed, then shame on the gay couple.
Re: Touche | 9:05 p.m. July 15, 2009
Nobody's saying you have to become a member. Your beliefs are between you
and God. But there's a fundamental difference between Mormons suggesting to
others that they read the Book of Mormon and study it out for themselves and
non-members doing their best to sway members from their testimonies, and that is
this: LDS members are trying to build people up by giving them the greatest gift
we members have to offer. They're trying to bring love and joy and every
good thing into the other person's life. The people who come out and make
comments like the ones I was referring to are only trying to tear down the
people they're talking to, and to bring them misery and contention.
The LDS church does NOT believe that all other churches are entirely wrong about everything. That's not even close to what we believe. We believe that other churches have a lot of wonderful things about them, and that they have some very important truths to teach. But people will hear what they want to hear, and insist it's the truth when it's not.
The LDS church does NOT believe that all other churches are entirely wrong about everything. That's not even close to what we believe. We believe that other churches have a lot of wonderful things about them, and that they have some very important truths to teach. But people will hear what they want to hear, and insist it's the truth when it's not.
No Longer in SLC | 5:23 p.m. July 23, 2009
I'm a gay Mormon and lived in Utah for a time during college years.
It's no secret that the LDS church finds any GLBT activity or PDA
inappropriate. Certainly I'm not shocked when anyone gives anyone a peck on
the cheek, some people were, it's private property. Although I'm all
for equal rights, and can understand why the gay couple was upset, private
property is not the venue for such arguments. Both sides overreacted. It's
hard to deny the humor in the arrest and later with the protest, but in all
honesty it is a shameful way for the GLBT community to react and does not
represent the whole as rational, decent, human beings. This is not the higher
road to equal rights. Such a protest should have taken place at the capital
building, in a political arena, not on private property. Just as GLBT should
have equal rights, so should the LDS have the right to determine appropriate
behavior on their own property. 'Nuff said.
Refused? | 12:24 p.m. Nov. 30, 2009
How could they leave, if they were detained and handcuffed? Why arrest, if they
never been issued a tresspass warning before?
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