Deseret News | 2 men cited in trespassing on LDS plaza

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2 men cited in trespassing on LDS plaza

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Outsider | 4:38 p.m. July 11, 2009

I have visited your city and thank Almighty God that I do not live in such a theocratic place. I do wish Utah would just secede and avoid embarassing the rest of the United States. You are so intolerant of anything that does not conform to your really weird beliefs, you will do anything to rid yourselves of anyone you deem unworthy. So two gay guys walked on your "sacred place". I don't blame them for reacting the way they did. I really think this article sounds like it came from Tehran, not the U.S. And no, I am not gay, am not an "anti" or whatever you folks use to put everyone in their place. I am just a man who is embarassed to know that there is a place where religion has warped so many people.

It happens | 4:54 p.m. July 11, 2009

WE need to start calling the cops on our neighbors too.

the observer | 4:56 p.m. July 11, 2009

the guys were expressing love. This is a Christ-like thing to do. If they keep expressing that they are the true church then why do they not want people to not act in a Christ like way. Good grief! What would Jesus do? He would not have them arrested. Mormons are acting more like the anti-Christ, not the true ambassadors of Christ that they claim.

Comments continue below

r | 5:06 p.m. July 11, 2009

You all know they just wanted a reaction! I know it, and especially they know it! In order to hug someone, you would have to slow down and stop. They knew what they were doing when they stopped in a place where they'd get a reaction. It seems that some gay people have become what they hate: intolerant and unreasonable. None of us are perfect, but could we at least have some common courtesy?

By the way, years ago a hetero-friend of mine was asked to leave Temple Square because she was kissing her boyfriend. Instead of being angry at the Church, they were just embarrassed and did leave the property.

Homosexual Immaturity | 5:22 p.m. July 11, 2009

Private property means the owners can set the rules of what kind of behavior they will allow. The First Amendment doesn't apply on private property.

The homosexual crowd talks about being understanding, compassionate, etc but if you cross the line that THEY choose they unload on you like a ton of bricks.

This is because evil knows no bounds.

How disgusting. | 5:30 p.m. July 11, 2009

I just hate to see couples kiss in public, oh I am talking about hetrosexual. So if I am repulsed by a guy and girl kissing in public, then I am also repulsed to see gays kissing in public. I feel that public displays of affection are imposing on strangers, don't they have places where people can be in public and neck, like make out hill and such? They have nude beaches, I won't go there, well, I won't go to a beach, ha ha. But they have places where smokers can smoke, drinkers can drink and they need to offer a place for kissers to kiss. The church has every right to tell anyone to leave, and I don't buy it that these guys were acting like angels, as I don't buy that security acted perfectly either.

Maybe this was not a planned thing, but based on the actions of the gay population, I would say that it was very calculated. Guilty by association.

Cougar Blue | 5:34 p.m. July 11, 2009

Is this the same web site that contains so many posts about the seminary teacher arrested for his actions? You surely couldn't tell it, the tenor is completely different. The Saints have a hard time accepting the fact that they judge daily, even when they don't know everything. Read the Trib account of this and some of your posts will seem very silly. Yes, we are a very bigoted people.

The Truth | 5:40 p.m. July 11, 2009

All one needs to do is read the majority of comments on this blog to see why the L.D.S. Church continues to be a third-rate religion in the eyes of everyone but Mormons. As the rest of the world - more and more - accepts and embraces the diversity of cultures, perspectives, and, yes, lifestyles, that make up the human race, too many Mormons (especially Utah Mormons) continue to be narrow-minded bigots in a Church, that, if it truly wanted to be taken seriously would recognize and condemn bigotry in all of its forms, as well as ex-communicate its bigots. Until it does, the LDS Church doesn't deserve to be taken seriously and, in the eyes of most people in the world, won't be taken seriously.

I smell California | 5:49 p.m. July 11, 2009

emanating from a great majority of these comments. Always trying to twist something into something it is not. I would guess that 40+ of these anti-Utah and anti-LDS comments are from the same person-multiplying him or herself in anonymity. Making them seem like more than they really are. A lot like the gay agenda-declaring that they are many more than they really represent demographically. Tell the world that 10% or more of the population is gay-when in reality it is more like 3%-4%

Amazing how much noise this tiny proportion of Americans can make. Seems like a lot more sometimes, eh? Even more amazing how they are so bold in calling themselves good and the rest of us bad. Calling us the haters-when it is they that propogate hate at every opportunity.

A lot of noise, but this too shall pass!!

OK | 5:51 p.m. July 11, 2009

To the visitors to Utah who have said that they had tickets and now have given them up, I call you out as liars. But if it is true, then GOODBYE! If your narrow-mindedness on this issue drives you nuts then you have serious issues. The two men in question were obviously doing more than just "pecking" on the cheeks. If they were "grinding" as asserted then they were obviously acting in a lewd way and should face jail time for lewdness. It isn't about being gay it is about proper public behavior on private property that is open, in a generous way, to the public. Why can't this be understood by all?

Whatever | 6:00 p.m. July 11, 2009

Unless these men have been hiding in a cave for the last year they were well aware of the result they would get from such displays on LDS property. They were obviously seeking media attention for gay rights and broke the law to do so. Low.

Ernest T. Bass | 6:13 p.m. July 11, 2009

The Church is just so true. Can't these people see that?

re: Ernest Bass | 6:34 p.m. July 11, 2009

I picked up on the sarcasm.

True or not, the Church has a right to its beliefs and to set rules on its private property.

Numbers | 7:00 p.m. July 11, 2009

To "I Smell California," who brilliantly made the following comment a few blogs back: "Tell the world that 10% or more of the population is gay when in reality it is more like 3%-4%."

I guess this 3%-4% number is supposed to discount gay people.

By the way, for the record, only 2%-to-3% of the American population (and an even smaller percentage of the world population) is Mormon.

Hey Visitor--- | 7:23 p.m. July 11, 2009

Glad your not coming to visit us-- we have enough radicals and shallow people that live here without adding another one to the group.
What little you would spend would never make up for the bad feelings I am sure you would bring with you as well--- I believe you made a wise decision-- stay home.....

To Hey Visitor | 7:38 p.m. July 11, 2009

Utah makes most of its money on tourism, so you aren't helping any.

Mc | 7:41 p.m. July 11, 2009

In a public place the rules have to be the same for all people, but that is not true on private property. The Church can allow a bride and groom to kiss for pictures while telling a homosexual couple that they cannot kiss on Church property.

FYI: The Church never said they would support civil unions in Utah. They said they would not actively fight them. They have been accused of lying because they did not come out in support of laws allowing civil unions in Utah. There is a big difference between saying nothing and making a public statement in support of civil unions. The Church kept its word by saying nothing against the proposed law.

I sure appreciate the many people of Utah who are not LDS, but are good-natured enough to put up with our quirks and respect our beliefs even though they do not share them. We can all live in peace if we want to. Some people don't want to.

Utah is Great | 8:42 p.m. July 11, 2009

Mc, many people in Utah are not LDS. Utah was once the home of the Freedom from Religion Foundation.
I've always enjoyed my trips there, and will likely move to Utah from Colorado. You just need to find the right town.

Nothing wrong with a chaste kiss | 8:54 p.m. July 11, 2009

be it heterosexual or homosexual. You can rest assured that this was more than a simple innocent peck on the cheek or even a lover's kiss, but nothing more than a contrived publicity stunt as a part of the gay community's well-thought out agenda to demonize the LDS Church. They know that as long as they keep yelling loud enough and long enough that Mormons are "haters" that a few will actually begin to believe.

The security police put up with a lot and are not easily provoked-so there was more going on than was reported by the media. Any body that starts swearing and fighting is going to receive the same treatment-gay, straight, young or old.

To all my GLT friends out there, get over yourselves. Nobody hates you or is trying to impose their lifestyle on you. You can do anything you choose to do in the sanctity of your home, bedroom, hotel, wherever. In reality it is you that would try to impose your lifestyle on all the world. Fortunately, the overwhelming majority of the world rejects your lifestyle totally.

Go and live in peace, but leave us alone as well.

re: Numbers | 9:08 p.m. July 11, 2009

No one is trying to discount gays whatsoever. The intent of pointing out the 3%-4% number was only to offer a whiff of reality. Demographic studies show that current U.S. population is comprised of about 3% homosexuals. Although gay apologists continue to insist that the true number is 10%+.
Only saying that that little segment among us sure sounds like a whole lot more than it really is

What is truly amazing is how much good the 2% LDS population continues to do in the U.S. and around the world on a daily basis. Now there is an interesting assignment: Compare and Contrast how these two small communities (LDS and Gays) make the world a better place. One espousing love door to door around the globe-preaching peace. While the other seeks to serve it's own cause and perpetuate (an oxymoron) itself by calling the other hateful and bigoted. A classic example of a the old football strategy: The best defense is a good offense.

Proposition 8 | 9:09 p.m. July 11, 2009

California's Prop 8 was overwhelmingly rejected by African Americans and Hispanics. Why is there no gay backlash against these groups. It appears that Mormons, arguably even a smaller demographic than LGBTs, is simply being targeted because they're an easy mark. Talk about tolerance of minorities.

@ To Visitor and Outsider | 9:18 p.m. July 11, 2009

Got along without you before I read your post and I'll get along without you now!!!!
Stay home----

Anonymous | 9:37 p.m. July 11, 2009

So, if any mormon couples come on my property, this means I can push them to the ground, restrain them and press charges right?

intolerant ignorance | 10:29 p.m. July 11, 2009

To the person who commented that those who disagree with how the situation was handled must be gays from California: what intolerant ignorance to believe that only California gays are disturbed by how church security responded to a trespass violation. I am a 7th generation Mormon, served a mission, am heterosexual, supported the Church's position on Prop. 8, and think the men should have left when asked, but I believe the response by church security was inappropriate.

To intolerant | 10:29 | 11:17 p.m. July 11, 2009

Speaking of intolerant -- since you know nothing more than what you read in the paper about how the situation was handled, don't you think your assumptions and conclusions are best characterized as "intolerant ingnorance?"

Deliberate Offense | 11:32 p.m. July 11, 2009

Homosexual activists and sympathizers talk about "intolerance," but this was an act of intolerance against the LDS church, its teachings, and its members. The two men went to the plaza to offend people. They knew that most of the people there would be LDS and would be offended by their conduct, which is why they did it. It was akin to parading around a Jewish synagogue with a Nazi flag.

Here is the truth, for any who care to read it:

“The unholy transgression of homosexuality is either rapidly growing or tolerance is giving it wider publicity. The Lord condemns and forbids this practice with a vigor equal to his condemnation of adultery and other such sex acts. The fact that some governments and some churches and numerous corrupted individuals have tried to reduce such behavior from criminal offense to personal privilege does not change the nature or the seriousness of the practice. Good men, wise men, God-fearing men everywhere still denounce the practice as being unworthy of sons of God; and Christ’s church denounces it and condemns it so long as men have bodies which can be defiled.” LDS President Spencer W. Kimball

Re: Deliberate Offense | 12:01 a.m. July 12, 2009

Spencer W. Kimball speaks for the mormon church, not for the nation, not for the world. So quoting his words about the "unholy transgression of homosexuality" means nothing to those of us who aren't mormons.

rights and intolerance | 12:40 a.m. July 12, 2009

Property rights were used to justify discrimination against blacks throughout much of American history. Blacks were considered trespassing when they demanded equal access to restaurants, hotels, drinking fountains, and voting booths. Black slaves were considered property, and slavery and segregation continued until our nation recognized that property rights cannot be a justification for injustice.

The Salt Lake police spokesperson gave an example of a restaurant owner asking someone to leave. However, a restaurant owner is not allowed to handcuff and to push someone to the floor who refuses to leave.

John Pack Lambert | 12:49 a.m. July 12, 2009

I think it is just terrible. Terrible. The homosexual is now coming onto our private property. Property that was purchased using the freely given tithes of our fellow brethren and sistren. They should be prosecuted to the full extent of the law. That is just how I feel at this time. Later, I might change my mind.

Indiana | 7:01 a.m. July 12, 2009

Bravo!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Great big kudos to the security guard and SLPD for doing what is right. For a hetero couple to hug and kiss and display NATURAL affection is one thing, but the over message-sending of kissing and bumping and grinding is UNNATURAL and God loving people everywhere need to say enough is enough... Thank GOd I belong to a Church not afraid to stand and be counted.

No discrimination | 7:18 a.m. July 12, 2009

This is not a matter of discrimination!! My daughter and her boyfriend were attending an event on Temple Square where they were hugging and kissing. They were also asked to please stop because PDA was unacceptable. If you don't like what the property owner's rules, don't go there.

Go Security! | 9:04 a.m. July 12, 2009

Finally someone stands up for morals! Even better is the couple insisted they shouldn't have to stop and wouldn't leave, so they get arrested! This is great!

Good for church security and the SLPD.

Chris | 1:58 p.m. July 12, 2009

A couple of points. First, the News article leaves out some important information. The incident took place at around 10:30 on a weeknight. If the couple was really looking to make a statement they could have picked a much better time. The News also fails to mention that one of the two was forced to the ground and both were cuffed. They were obviously not going anywhere, the police could have been called and no physical force would have been needed. Second, I'm sure the church as plenty of security film of the incident, if there was "bumping and grinding" as some have said it would be easy to confirm with that film.

Contrary to many member's view, you are not the center of the universe and everything that happens in this world isn't an attack on you or your "beliefs." Some people just want to live their lives, to love and be loved.

To Chris | 1:58 | 3:42 p.m. July 12, 2009

"Some people just want to live their lives, to love and be loved."

Yes, we Mormons do. So why can't the LGBT community just leave us alone to do so?

What happend to respect? | 4:05 p.m. July 12, 2009

Didn't your mama ever teach you to mind your manners when you went to visit a friends house?

If my childs friends behaved in an inappropriate way at my house, they would be told to stop and would not be invited back.

hippocrites | 6:13 p.m. July 12, 2009

What would Jesus have done? There's a lot of anger and hate in these comments. You are not true followers of Him.

re: hippocrites | 10:13 p.m. July 12, 2009

While I'm not sure what a "hippocrite" is, I can tell you exactly what Jesus would do. He would tell them to "go and sin no more," and He would expect them to follow the law peacefully - which means leaving the plaza when asked, and not shouting profanities at the guard who was only doing his job.

Bill | 11:34 p.m. July 12, 2009

PDA is not permitted on the property. It is not permitted on any Church Property at any time. Smokinging, drinking, PDA, and other activities the Church feels is inappropriate the individuals will be asked to stop or to leave the premises. That is a fact.

This has nothing to do with civil rights, gay rights or love, it has to do with property rights, especially private property. Most LDS members for the most part are very tolerant and will say very little to anyone even if they are displaying unwanted acts. The chapels do not have security guards present all the time.

This was private property, they were asked to leave. That is the end of the story. Anyone who disagrees with that are totally wrong. For the person who says no to LDS Missionaries repeatedly needs to understand that people move and the missionaries only serve for two years. They are only in an area for six months maximum in most cases and less in others. They leave and go on to the next house. Maybe you really should welcome them in sometime. They really are quite human.

Casting stones | 12:10 a.m. July 13, 2009

Hey! until god has found these people guilty of sin it not up to any Mormon to cast stones at them. It is God who will decide which of us he wants to do away with.... So he who is with out sin cast the first stone.

BobP | 7:45 a.m. July 13, 2009

In my more "in your face days" I had a bumper sticker that said "if you don't like the way I drive, get off of my sidewalk".

In essence these two activists were doing the same thing. They were being "in your face" and obnoxious about they public displays of homosexual affection. When asked to leave, they objected and got evicted.

I am active LDS and still hold to "my place, my rules. If you don't like them - go away.

Anonymous | 9:31 a.m. July 13, 2009

This is silly. I am active LDS, too. So what? This is wrong. The Church's security made a big mistake here because they lack good sense and judgment.

Gen.27:26
And his father Isaac said unto him, Come near now, and kiss me, my son.

Gen 29:13
And it came to pass, when Laban heard the tidings of Jacob his sister’s son, that he ran to meet him, and embraced him, and kissed him, and brought him to his house.

Song.1:2
Let him kiss me with the kisses of his mouth: for thy love is better than wine.

Gen.33:4
And Esau ran to meet him, and embraced him, and fell on his neck, and kissed him: and they wept.

Ex.4:27
And the Lord said to Aaron, Go into the wilderness to meet Moses. And he went, and met him in the amount of God, and kissed him.

Rom.16:16
Salute one another with an holy kiss. The churches of Christ salute you.

1Cor. 16:20
All the brethren greet you. Greet ye one another with an holy kiss. (2 Cor.13:12; 1Thes.5:26; 1Pet.5:14)

Desert Rat | 9:47 a.m. July 13, 2009

At a macro level, people being asked to leave private property, this was fine.

What bothers me is the handcuffing by the Church rent-a-cops. That is beyond accpetable. I expect that alone will generate a lawsuit that the Church will and should lose. They clearly overstepped their authority.

To Outsider | 4:38 | 10:42 a.m. July 13, 2009

I'm glad you don't live here either. Wow, you are an angry and confused person.

To It happens | 4:54 | 10:44 a.m. July 13, 2009

Well, if your neighbors are trespassing on your property and won't leave after you asked them too then you should call the cops. Common sense.

To Anonymous | 9:37 | 10:48 a.m. July 13, 2009

You forgot the part where you ask them politely to leave first. Most LDS couples have more common sense than the gay couple in the article and would leave when asked.

Classic | 11:02 a.m. July 13, 2009

Some of the comments are so laughable. A gay couple breaks the law and is arrested. Now the LDS Church is the villain. There are some really confused people in this world. Anyone with an ounce of common sense can see through this.

JJ | 11:06 a.m. July 13, 2009

If this type of intolerance continues I think the LDS Church should just close the plaza. If people can't be respectful towards others wishes on their own private property then close it off. Obviously the citizens of SLC are to immature to be allowed to pass though the area.

Queezy... | 11:35 a.m. July 13, 2009

Leave the religion at the door... The sight of two people of the same sex kissing and holding hand makes me queezy....who's with me?

Lame | 11:49 a.m. July 13, 2009

Chris | 5:40 a.m. July 11, 2009

I know you think you are making some sort of point - what that point is, none of us will ever know.

Native Utahn | 12:01 p.m. July 13, 2009

It seems to me there will be never be peace and unity in this most religiously divided of states until this organization ceases to stop treating it as their own private kingdom and it's citizens as their own personal subjects.

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