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Apologetics conference Aug. 6-7 tackles alleged controversy
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Anonymous | 10:20 a.m. July 9, 2009
Why would I need to convince myself that the Tooth Fairy is real? The money
under my pillow is all the evidence I need
a fair question for Fair | 10:41 a.m. July 9, 2009
Greek translation: In good Christian bookstores you can buy a critical Greek
Apparatus: example, "New Testament Greek manuscripts"(variant readings
arrange in horizontal lines against Codex Vaticanus).John 4:24, God is Spirit,
The best manuscripts(45)4th century(about 325)to the 15th century, support this
reading,also 2nd century(about 150)Papyrus 66c and 75 confirm this reading as
well,and Clement of Alexandria quotes(about 150)"God is Spirit"(Pneuma
Ho Theos). The fragments are in Geneva.The Mormon Church has said this is a
mis-translation,is there any trustwothy variant reading?
Comments continue below
Ronnie Bray | 10:48 a.m. July 9, 2009
How exquisite that detractors of Mormon Sacred Texts do not apply the standard
they exact from LDS to their own faiths and their own sacred texts.
Cynicism is natural in humanity, but after one has attained majority, then something more that aerated opinion is required to move the discussion forward.
BTW Crocker - an Egyptologist is an Egyptologist wherever he/she may work. Scorning him/her because he/she is employed by the BYU is like refusing roadside assistance and/or life saving medical assistance from a Mormon AAA Towing Company or a Mormon doctor of medicine.
Somethings are just too foolish to consider.
God is love - go in peace.
Cynicism is natural in humanity, but after one has attained majority, then something more that aerated opinion is required to move the discussion forward.
BTW Crocker - an Egyptologist is an Egyptologist wherever he/she may work. Scorning him/her because he/she is employed by the BYU is like refusing roadside assistance and/or life saving medical assistance from a Mormon AAA Towing Company or a Mormon doctor of medicine.
Somethings are just too foolish to consider.
God is love - go in peace.
Anonymous | 11:10 a.m. July 9, 2009
To: Ronnie,
It is not foolish to question the neutrality of the Egyptologist. BYU has a known history of "editing" the opinions and teachings of their scholars.
It is no different that questioning the objectivity of a chiropractor discussing the benefits of his treatments vs. traditional medicine.
Your analogy with a Mormon AAA towing company is worthless. A towing company does not offer opinions, they offer a service.
It is not foolish to question the neutrality of the Egyptologist. BYU has a known history of "editing" the opinions and teachings of their scholars.
It is no different that questioning the objectivity of a chiropractor discussing the benefits of his treatments vs. traditional medicine.
Your analogy with a Mormon AAA towing company is worthless. A towing company does not offer opinions, they offer a service.
Not Church Doctrine | 11:49 a.m. July 9, 2009
On May4,2007, the LDS Church's official website posted "Approaching
Mormon Doctrine," which reads in part:
"Not every statement made by a Church leader, past or present, necessarily constitutes doctrine. A single statement made by a single leader on a single occasion often represents a personal, though well-considered, opinion, but is not meant to be officially binding for the whole Church. With divine inspiration, the First Presidency (the prophet and his two counselors) and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles (the second-highest governing body of the Church) counsel together to establish doctrine that is consistently proclaimed in official Church publications. This doctrine resides in the four “standard works” of scripture (the Holy Bible, the Book of Mormon, the Doctrine and Covenants and the Pearl of Great Price), official declarations and proclamations, and the Articles of Faith."
As such, NOT A SINGLE THING anyone says at this FAIR Conference is Church Doctrine! It is their "personal, though well-considered, opinion" only.
So much of what LDS members base their testimonies on is NOT CHURCH DOCTRINE! And so much of what members say in defense of the Church is NOT CHURCH DOCTRINE!
"Not every statement made by a Church leader, past or present, necessarily constitutes doctrine. A single statement made by a single leader on a single occasion often represents a personal, though well-considered, opinion, but is not meant to be officially binding for the whole Church. With divine inspiration, the First Presidency (the prophet and his two counselors) and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles (the second-highest governing body of the Church) counsel together to establish doctrine that is consistently proclaimed in official Church publications. This doctrine resides in the four “standard works” of scripture (the Holy Bible, the Book of Mormon, the Doctrine and Covenants and the Pearl of Great Price), official declarations and proclamations, and the Articles of Faith."
As such, NOT A SINGLE THING anyone says at this FAIR Conference is Church Doctrine! It is their "personal, though well-considered, opinion" only.
So much of what LDS members base their testimonies on is NOT CHURCH DOCTRINE! And so much of what members say in defense of the Church is NOT CHURCH DOCTRINE!
Marie Devine | 12:09 p.m. July 9, 2009
The God of the whole earth has cross-referenced His word through many prophets.
Muhammad refers to a Book of Moses and Abraham and to parts of God's word
taken out by evil designs. Until Joseph Smith Jr. brought the Pearl of Great
Price forward with those books, Christianity didn't even know about
them.
My questions for the conference is, Why do Christians including Mormans follow the Ten Commandment cut in stone. Exodus 20. The 7th day is the Lord's day appointed unto rest. It is the unifying principle since Muhammad also said to live by the Torah, Gospels and what God has sent down. They should be the same.
The "two witnesses" of Revelation 11 are expected to be Moses and Enoch or Enoch and Elijah. They will come with the same word. Now we have the testamony of Enoch through Joseph Smith Jr. saying even the name Jesus Christ was known in Adam and Eve's time. They were to pray to God in Jesus' name as though he had already come, just as we pray knowing he has come. There is information about other worlds, where God is, etc; it should interest many.
My questions for the conference is, Why do Christians including Mormans follow the Ten Commandment cut in stone. Exodus 20. The 7th day is the Lord's day appointed unto rest. It is the unifying principle since Muhammad also said to live by the Torah, Gospels and what God has sent down. They should be the same.
The "two witnesses" of Revelation 11 are expected to be Moses and Enoch or Enoch and Elijah. They will come with the same word. Now we have the testamony of Enoch through Joseph Smith Jr. saying even the name Jesus Christ was known in Adam and Eve's time. They were to pray to God in Jesus' name as though he had already come, just as we pray knowing he has come. There is information about other worlds, where God is, etc; it should interest many.
Forests and Trees | 12:17 p.m. July 9, 2009
Crock, Anonymous, and so forth--I think you're failing to see the forest
because you're paying too much attention to some leaves falling off some of
the trees. It seems like Mormons can't win in your eyes. Either we're
disregarding "facts," or when we consider "facts,"
we're skewing something.
Consider this, OK? To YOU, those "facts" indicate contrary evidence. To ME, those "facts" are indicative of such things as logical flaws, misinterpretations, miscommunications, misunderstandings, opinions stemming from uninspired thought (remember, our church leaders' *personal/political/social beliefs* are potentially fallible), or other human errors. Also don't forget outright fabrications by people misrepresenting the Church in some way--no shortage of those, either.
From my perspective, the Mormon interpretation is also a lot more open-minded and tells us a lot more about ourselves as people than the method you're using. Maybe you negative commenters might want to expand your own intellectual frameworks just a bit? Just a thought.
Consider this, OK? To YOU, those "facts" indicate contrary evidence. To ME, those "facts" are indicative of such things as logical flaws, misinterpretations, miscommunications, misunderstandings, opinions stemming from uninspired thought (remember, our church leaders' *personal/political/social beliefs* are potentially fallible), or other human errors. Also don't forget outright fabrications by people misrepresenting the Church in some way--no shortage of those, either.
From my perspective, the Mormon interpretation is also a lot more open-minded and tells us a lot more about ourselves as people than the method you're using. Maybe you negative commenters might want to expand your own intellectual frameworks just a bit? Just a thought.
To fair question | 10:41 | 12:18 p.m. July 9, 2009
God is spirit? Of course He is. So are you. So am I.
I -- that is, my spirit -- resides in a physical body, for now. So do you.
God -- that is, His spirit -- resides in an immortal body. Forever. Someday you and I will, too. But that doesn't mean He's not spirit. And, when I worship him, I must do so in spirit and truth, as John 4:24 says. My spirit to His.
That was easy.
I've been a member all my life and have never heard John 4:24 referred to as a mistranslation.
I -- that is, my spirit -- resides in a physical body, for now. So do you.
God -- that is, His spirit -- resides in an immortal body. Forever. Someday you and I will, too. But that doesn't mean He's not spirit. And, when I worship him, I must do so in spirit and truth, as John 4:24 says. My spirit to His.
That was easy.
I've been a member all my life and have never heard John 4:24 referred to as a mistranslation.
Anonymous | 12:43 p.m. July 9, 2009
To: Forest and Trees
It is true, my opinion is no more objective than that of an apologist. We must always consider the source when we decide whether or not to accept any truth. Finding unbiased facts is nearly impossible
It is true, my opinion is no more objective than that of an apologist. We must always consider the source when we decide whether or not to accept any truth. Finding unbiased facts is nearly impossible
tim | 1:39 p.m. July 9, 2009
FAIR fills peoples heads with pseudo-intellectual rubbish that is NOT doctrine
of the Church.
To Not Church Doctrine,
Thank you for the quote. I did not know about that statement.
To Not Church Doctrine,
Thank you for the quote. I did not know about that statement.
RE: 12:18 to fair question | 1:43 p.m. July 9, 2009
Creeds teach that God is a spirit essence that fills the immensity of of space
and is everywhere and no where in particular present. In a vain attempt to
support this doctrine....,it is common for apologists to point to the statement
in the KJV,which says God is a spirit (John 4:22-24)The fact is that this
passage is mis-translated. (Mormon Doctrine p 318) Judaica Hebraica, GOD is
incorpreal,(no body)infinite,first cause of creation. I suggest you study
Mormonism better.
Larry J | 2:12 p.m. July 9, 2009
I used to think truth will prevail, but, I now believe it may not for everyone.
There are still people who believe the earth is flat, the moon landing was a
hoax, evolution is completely false, the oceans tides are caused by the earth
breathing and not the gravity of the moon, and etc.
I wonder if this conference will approach challenging subjects from the stand point, "I already KNOW the 'truth' and all the evidence (not matter what it reveals) supports my position.
Can we handle the truth?
I wonder if this conference will approach challenging subjects from the stand point, "I already KNOW the 'truth' and all the evidence (not matter what it reveals) supports my position.
Can we handle the truth?
LDS Theology? | 3:11 p.m. July 9, 2009
Mormons don't really know what they believe about God.
Lectures on Faith says,
“There are two personages who constitute the great, matchless, governing, and supreme power over all things - …They are the Father and the Son: The Father being a personage of spirit, glory, and power, possessing all perfection and fullness.
The Son, who was in the bosom of the Father, a personage of tabernacle, made or fashioned like unto man, or being in the form and likeness of man - or rather, man was formed after his likeness and in his image. …[He] is called the Son because of the flesh - …And he being the Only Begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth, and having overcome, received a fullness of the glory of the Father - possessing the same mind with the Father; which Mind is the Holy Spirit, that bears record of the Father and the Son; and these three constitute the Godhead and are one: the Father and the Son possessing the same mind, the same wisdom, glory, power, and fullness;”
This was official LDS-Church Doctrine from Joseph the Prophet and for 90 years after!
And Holland said the Nicean Creed was incomprehensible? LOL!
Lectures on Faith says,
“There are two personages who constitute the great, matchless, governing, and supreme power over all things - …They are the Father and the Son: The Father being a personage of spirit, glory, and power, possessing all perfection and fullness.
The Son, who was in the bosom of the Father, a personage of tabernacle, made or fashioned like unto man, or being in the form and likeness of man - or rather, man was formed after his likeness and in his image. …[He] is called the Son because of the flesh - …And he being the Only Begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth, and having overcome, received a fullness of the glory of the Father - possessing the same mind with the Father; which Mind is the Holy Spirit, that bears record of the Father and the Son; and these three constitute the Godhead and are one: the Father and the Son possessing the same mind, the same wisdom, glory, power, and fullness;”
This was official LDS-Church Doctrine from Joseph the Prophet and for 90 years after!
And Holland said the Nicean Creed was incomprehensible? LOL!
Anonymous | 4:42 p.m. July 9, 2009
The problem with the LDS doctrine/history is that they are constantly trying to
fit a round peg in a square hole. If everything was true with regards to the BOM
then everything should just flow. They would know where the history actually
took place. Such as knowing exactly where the hill cumorah actually was.
Artifacts would be found to support their claims. DNA evidence would be found to
support the claims of Joseph Smith with regards to the Lamenites. Instead,
excuses and plenty of them, are used to try and explain why things just
don't add up. The book of abraham transcription would all come into place.
Instead, their needs to be apologetics for everything. That should tell you
something.
Fredd | 4:47 p.m. July 9, 2009
Very interesting posts. If the satement about "Not Church Doctrine"
came after Brigham was Prophet and he spoke as if he was prophecizing and people
accepted it as prophecizing and he didn't correct them, wouldn't it
follow he thought he was prophecizing? If the Prophet is prophecizing
isn't that prophecy?
RE: a fair question for Fair | 4:48 p.m. July 9, 2009
It says God IS spirit,
NOT God is "A" spirit,
ponder that.
NOT God is "A" spirit,
ponder that.
Honesty | 5:04 p.m. July 9, 2009
FAIR has NEVER claimed they are divining CHURCH DOCTRINE.
they are simply pondering the mysteries of God, of past events, and claims,
and trying to figure things out with the best they can, and with the information and the best methods they have,
the same as you.
Just because YOU REFUSE TO LISTEN or consider a view point other than your own, or consider the possibilities, or see that there are reasonable explanations,
or you just disagree,
does NOT make them wrong,
or right.
But that is the danger in exploring these things,
particularly the mysteries of God, and things we just do not really know about or have very little information of,
and for the need to have the spirit with you, the Holy Ghost, which WILL testify/teach/guide you to what is truth.
they are simply pondering the mysteries of God, of past events, and claims,
and trying to figure things out with the best they can, and with the information and the best methods they have,
the same as you.
Just because YOU REFUSE TO LISTEN or consider a view point other than your own, or consider the possibilities, or see that there are reasonable explanations,
or you just disagree,
does NOT make them wrong,
or right.
But that is the danger in exploring these things,
particularly the mysteries of God, and things we just do not really know about or have very little information of,
and for the need to have the spirit with you, the Holy Ghost, which WILL testify/teach/guide you to what is truth.
RE: fair question for fair 4:48 | 6:01 p.m. July 9, 2009
God is Spirit not God is a Spirit.
1. you cannot literal translate the Greek to English here.
2. In Greek there are no indefinite articles (A or An) The KJV added the "A" for truthful understanding
3 God is spirit(Pneuma Ho Theos),the subject has the article and the predicate has it not; (word order)
$. The best literal I an do is"The God-Spriit"
1. you cannot literal translate the Greek to English here.
2. In Greek there are no indefinite articles (A or An) The KJV added the "A" for truthful understanding
3 God is spirit(Pneuma Ho Theos),the subject has the article and the predicate has it not; (word order)
$. The best literal I an do is"The God-Spriit"
Re: What a Crock | 7:15 p.m. July 9, 2009
Each time I browse these Mormon forums, I expect the Mormon-haters to have
something semi-intelligent to say.
Guess I better keep tying.
Guess I better keep tying.
Intelligent??? | 9:40 p.m. July 9, 2009
Every time something intelligent is said, it doesn't get posted. I have a
few comments that are not disparaging in the least, but are honest questions and
for some reason they seem to not get posted.
Bill | 10:21 p.m. July 9, 2009
FAIR is not Church Doctrine nor do they actually teach any doctrine. They try
to explain things in the same manner as any man or woman may. The truth is that
if you really want to know the truth, you must as with a broken heart and a
contrite spirit. There are many here that wouldn't recognize a knock at
their door of the saviour is he suddenly appears. Christ lives as a resurrected
being. It is known in all Christendom that Christ died for each of us and was
resurrected the third day. He defeated death so that each of us would be
reunited with our bodies. When we die our spirits leave the body and go to
either paradise or spirit prison. Read the NEW TESTAMENT and you will gain an
understanding of this. Paul relates what the Saviour did for those three days.
Modern day revelation reveals more of it but testifies of what Paul says. it is
also stated that in the resurrection we will have a perfect body without scars
or blemishes. Ask yourself then why does the Saviour have the prints in his
hands, wrists, feet and side?
Logic | 10:31 p.m. July 9, 2009
One day two men were walking down a path and they saw a treasure chest on the
side of the path. One man opened the chest and discovered immeasurable spritual
truths inside and rejoiced at his discovery. The other man refused to examine
the contents of the chest and only wanted to debate possible origins of the
chest. Which approach is more logical?
Apologetics | 11:59 p.m. July 9, 2009
My understanding of what FAIR is trying to do, is to provide well thought out
reasons to believe in Mormonism. FAIR can't prove something is true or
correct, just as Mormonism's detractors can't prove something is false
or incorrect. There simply isn't enough objective evidence to prove, or
disprove, Mormonism beyond a reasonable doubt. So we are left with a choice.
We can believe, or not believe. If we choose to believe, that is called faith.
However, to be a real choice, both alternatives must seem reasonable to
reasonable people. FAIR provides reasonable explanations to answer the unfair
attacks on Mormonism. This is called apologetics. The goal of Mormon
apologetics is to allow honest, thinking men and woman the intellectual room to
make the choice to believe.
Once we make the choice to believe, the Holy spirit can work miracles in our lives.
Once we make the choice to believe, the Holy spirit can work miracles in our lives.
correct doctrine | 2:37 p.m. July 10, 2009
The 3:11 pm poster has spoken the truth every whit.
This is the same doctrine that we in The Church of Jesus Christ (whq: Monongahela, Penn.) have steadfastly believed for almost 150 years now.
well done 3:11pm poster.
This is the same doctrine that we in The Church of Jesus Christ (whq: Monongahela, Penn.) have steadfastly believed for almost 150 years now.
well done 3:11pm poster.
RE: correct doctrine | 3:47 p.m. July 10, 2009
Correct doctrine?
If Christ is a "SON of the FLESH",
wouldn't the father NEED flesh, a body, also?
I believe genetics and biology say so.
PLus there is NOTHING said in it that doesn't say the Father doesn't have a body.
If Christ is a "SON of the FLESH",
wouldn't the father NEED flesh, a body, also?
I believe genetics and biology say so.
PLus there is NOTHING said in it that doesn't say the Father doesn't have a body.
RE: no body | 6:12 p.m. July 10, 2009
Deut $:15,16 "So watch yourselves carefully,since you did not see any form
onthe day theLord spoke to you at Horeb from the midst of the fire ,so that you
do not act corruptly and make a graven image for yourselves in the form of any
figure,the likesness as male or female.'
Hosea 11:9 "I am God not a man.
Hosea 11:9 "I am God not a man.
RE: 3:47pm | 6:55 p.m. July 10, 2009
to your question - no to first part, yes to 2nd part. Christ is the Son of God,
not the Son of the flesh. The phrase "Son of the flesh" occurs nowhere
in the KJV or the BOM.
God The Eternal Father (Jehovah) is a Spirit Personage. He has a Spirit Body with arms, hands, legs, feet, head, eyes, ears nose, but it is not flesh, but all Spirit. He does not have glorfied muscle and bones as does the resurrected Lord (Jesus Christ).
God The Eternal Father (Jehovah) is a Spirit Personage. He has a Spirit Body with arms, hands, legs, feet, head, eyes, ears nose, but it is not flesh, but all Spirit. He does not have glorfied muscle and bones as does the resurrected Lord (Jesus Christ).
Bill to RE: 6:55 pm | 8:31 p.m. July 10, 2009
Your doctrine is incorrect. Jehovah of the Old Testament is JESUS Christ not
God the Father. Reread Genesis and you will see that God the Father and Jesus
Christ made man (Adam and Eve) in their own image. Since, each child born to a
mother and a father is in many ways a SPLITTING image of the parents then it is
reasonable to understand that God the Father and the Son, Jesus Christ each has
a body of flesh and bones. Every individual prior to coming to earth is a
spirit child of our Heavenly Father. That spirit then incorporates itself into
the body given here on earth. Once the body dies the spirit once more leaves
the body until the resurrection in which everyone will attain immortality but
eternal life is entirely different. Moses saw God the Father and Jesus Christ,
Abraham saw both, Isaac saw both and Enouch saw both. Paul saw Jesus Christ as
a resurrected being just as our Father in Heaven is a resurrected being. The
only other individual I'm aware of seeing both the father and the son is
Joseph Smith.
RE: RE: 3:47pm | 6:55 p.m | 10:20 p.m. July 10, 2009
I am replying a poster who was using the "lectures on faith",
not scripture.
And By the way HAVE YOU SEEN GOD?
Then you do not really know.
And you are only proferring your opinion and interpretation.
IF the Father is the FATHER why wouldn't have a body?
Jehovah, God of the old testament, was Jesus the Christ, and did not have body until he was born in meridian of time.
not scripture.
And By the way HAVE YOU SEEN GOD?
Then you do not really know.
And you are only proferring your opinion and interpretation.
IF the Father is the FATHER why wouldn't have a body?
Jehovah, God of the old testament, was Jesus the Christ, and did not have body until he was born in meridian of time.
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