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Plans stir up debate about lake
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wow she has it wrong | 11:47 p.m. July 5, 2009
Atwood is confused about many things. The best thing for the lake is removing
minerals from the north arm. The causeway prevents mixing and makes the north
arm of the lake more salty than it should be. The north end ecosystem suffers.
This scientific fact is well studied and documented. All a person has to do is look at the lake on google maps or search "great salt lake north arm salinity" to see that there is a big human caused problem. The problem is too much minerals and no outlet. The south arm salinity ranges from 3%-16%. The north arm ranges from 16% to 28%. Brine shrimp don't survive well in the north arm so birds don't go there to eat them. The hyper-saline water is toxic to almost all native plants and animals.
Removing minerals and letting more inflow from the south arm ought to reduce salinity in the north arm. That's good for the environment. It's good for the lake, good for the plants and animals. If there's also a financial benefit for somebody for helping heal the lake, so much the better.
This scientific fact is well studied and documented. All a person has to do is look at the lake on google maps or search "great salt lake north arm salinity" to see that there is a big human caused problem. The problem is too much minerals and no outlet. The south arm salinity ranges from 3%-16%. The north arm ranges from 16% to 28%. Brine shrimp don't survive well in the north arm so birds don't go there to eat them. The hyper-saline water is toxic to almost all native plants and animals.
Removing minerals and letting more inflow from the south arm ought to reduce salinity in the north arm. That's good for the environment. It's good for the lake, good for the plants and animals. If there's also a financial benefit for somebody for helping heal the lake, so much the better.
Recreational use | 4:14 a.m. July 6, 2009
There is a lot of potential for recreational use of the GSL and often wondered
why it has not been developed more. The old open air rail cars were enjoyable
and families would travel the rail to visit and swim the lake. The old boardwalk
had many vendors and food stands and souvenir shops.
One person tried to re-establish a recreational use pavilion but he met high resistance and assistance to make it come to fruition. At one time the lake provided most of the Salt Lake area an inexpensive and easy to access use of the lake in summer months.
The lake has been neglected far too long and a loss for the state to ignore it and let it be used as a dumping sight. The road to antelope island needs to be redesigned to allow equalization of the salanity and ecosystem of the entire lake. The state should limit the mineral extractions and reduce hazardous waste going to the lake. We have 2 bodies of water (Utah lake & the GSL) in close proximity of major cities but neither get very much use for recreation. Developement of the lakes should be private but state monitored.
One person tried to re-establish a recreational use pavilion but he met high resistance and assistance to make it come to fruition. At one time the lake provided most of the Salt Lake area an inexpensive and easy to access use of the lake in summer months.
The lake has been neglected far too long and a loss for the state to ignore it and let it be used as a dumping sight. The road to antelope island needs to be redesigned to allow equalization of the salanity and ecosystem of the entire lake. The state should limit the mineral extractions and reduce hazardous waste going to the lake. We have 2 bodies of water (Utah lake & the GSL) in close proximity of major cities but neither get very much use for recreation. Developement of the lakes should be private but state monitored.
Comments continue below
RE: wow she had is wrong | 6:30 a.m. July 6, 2009
Perhaps mineral extraction alone could help the lake's north arm, but GSL
Minerals' process will remove millions of gallons of water from the lake
without altering the chemical composition of the little water that remains. The
solution is to leave more water in the lake, not less. If a GSL Minerals could
employ a process that removed minerals and returned fresh water to the lake,
your argument would make sense.
kd zuch | 6:50 a.m. July 6, 2009
I am glad this discussion is happening. Another concern is Kennecott's
plan to dispose of their toxic plume water into the lake. This water is
currently pumped from Herriman to Magna into collection ponds, but with
Kennecott looking to modify their permit, I am afraid we'll see this toxic
waste end up in the lake.
Out of Control | 7:07 a.m. July 6, 2009
It's not the lake that is out of control, it's this article. The
company wants to make use of an unused portion of the lake. It's not like
they propose draining the lake! Get a grip. If you are so anxious about it,
why don't you invest you millions to buy the land and lock up the mineral
rights. Until you own it, back off and stop trying to take away the rights of
property use of others.
Take the minerals | 7:22 a.m. July 6, 2009
The great salt lake is a resource. It smells the valley up, not its time for it
to pay us back.
Heaven knows we could use the tax dollars.
Heaven knows we could use the tax dollars.
Learn your science | 7:24 a.m. July 6, 2009
The north part of the GSL is to salty for most life anyway. Taking the minerals
our will not only benefit the economy but the ecology as well.
Bonnie F. | 7:37 a.m. July 6, 2009
I rely heavily upon those who have studied and understand the issues and
ramifications involved with GSL development and protection. I prefer a "go
slow" approach so that long-term sustainabiliy is not compromised.
In this instance, it seems to me that Ms. Atwood's pleas for more earnest oversight and management are warranted. We don't have to stop all development, but we do have a responsibility to do it right from the outset.
In this instance, it seems to me that Ms. Atwood's pleas for more earnest oversight and management are warranted. We don't have to stop all development, but we do have a responsibility to do it right from the outset.
Why Not | 8:05 a.m. July 6, 2009
use the resources of the lake. Birds and Shrimp are using the Lake, why not the
people also. I get very tired of hearing a minority few tell the majority what
to do. Good example Legacy Highway.
If the resources are there lets use them. Any more we cannot go on public land without a permit. We cannot see the beauty of the state without paying a fee. You pick up a few rocks on public land and you have the SWAT Team working you over for doing something illegal.
Orwell's 1984 just took a little longer than we thought.
If the resources are there lets use them. Any more we cannot go on public land without a permit. We cannot see the beauty of the state without paying a fee. You pick up a few rocks on public land and you have the SWAT Team working you over for doing something illegal.
Orwell's 1984 just took a little longer than we thought.
Re; Out of Control | 8:13 a.m. July 6, 2009
Exactly. The evironmentalists aren't getting their way, so they're
running to their sympathetic allies in the Media in order to get their
hysterical assertions taken seriously.
SLC gal | 8:29 a.m. July 6, 2009
There are so many recreational possibilities there! Do you know they rent
surfboards at the gift shop?
Linus | 8:35 a.m. July 6, 2009
Just like every environmentalist, Atwood stands opposed to the development of
natural resources, and sees human beings as enemies to native ecosystems. The
truth is that this planet and all its natural resources, if left undeveloped,
unused and unkept, would not support a high quality of life for ANY of its
inhabitants; whatever their genus.
Environmentalists would religiously study every idea to death. The proposed expansion of mineral extraction would improve local quality of life and greatly improve human quality of life GLOBALLY, as it would provide essential nutrients for food production in-and-for the hungry residents of Third-world countries. Selfishness does not become us. Let us share the bounty of this great local resource.
Environmentalists would religiously study every idea to death. The proposed expansion of mineral extraction would improve local quality of life and greatly improve human quality of life GLOBALLY, as it would provide essential nutrients for food production in-and-for the hungry residents of Third-world countries. Selfishness does not become us. Let us share the bounty of this great local resource.
Matthew | 8:42 a.m. July 6, 2009
It is very important to keep in mind that the way in which the minerals are
extracted from the lake is to evaporate water away. They don't just take
out the minerals and then put the water back into the lake. To get more
minerals, you need to evaporate more water. That is not good for the
environment and it doesn't lower the salinity of the lake. It also does
have the effect of "draining the lake" in that it makes it lower than
it would be otherwise.
Also, each and every resident of Utah already owns a share of the lands in question. That is the point here. We are talking about a public resource. Think in terms of your neighborhood park. What would your reaction be to the land being converted to an industrial use? Then add in much further reaching environmental implications due to the scale of the Great Salt Lake.
You may think more evaporation ponds and jobs is a good policy decision, but don't confuse yourself or others about the implications and impacts of such a policy by falsely pretending a superior understanding of the science.
Also, each and every resident of Utah already owns a share of the lands in question. That is the point here. We are talking about a public resource. Think in terms of your neighborhood park. What would your reaction be to the land being converted to an industrial use? Then add in much further reaching environmental implications due to the scale of the Great Salt Lake.
You may think more evaporation ponds and jobs is a good policy decision, but don't confuse yourself or others about the implications and impacts of such a policy by falsely pretending a superior understanding of the science.
Dave | 8:45 a.m. July 6, 2009
Apparently, according to "out of control" at 707am, all us little
people shouldn't be allowed to have an opinion.
Opinions on the GSL should be reserved only for people rich enough to buy huge amounts of real estate, eh? If you're not a multimillionaire, step aside?
You disgust me.
Opinions on the GSL should be reserved only for people rich enough to buy huge amounts of real estate, eh? If you're not a multimillionaire, step aside?
You disgust me.
Anonymous | 9:24 a.m. July 6, 2009
If it's not too much trouble, could someone from the environmental
community either:
1. tell us what laws state officials have broken; or
2. describe in some detail the catastrophe that is occurring, or will occur, if the management scheme isn't changed to the environmentalists' liking?
I am genuinely confused about both matters.
The State says it has its comprehensive management plan, which is up for renewal shortly, and is following the law.
The environmentalists say, effectively, that they have a bad feeling about how things are going and therefore things should be done differently.
They don't say what violations of the law have occurred.
They don't say what terrible things have happened because of the multiple use approach the state uses.
Can someone enlighten us?
1. tell us what laws state officials have broken; or
2. describe in some detail the catastrophe that is occurring, or will occur, if the management scheme isn't changed to the environmentalists' liking?
I am genuinely confused about both matters.
The State says it has its comprehensive management plan, which is up for renewal shortly, and is following the law.
The environmentalists say, effectively, that they have a bad feeling about how things are going and therefore things should be done differently.
They don't say what violations of the law have occurred.
They don't say what terrible things have happened because of the multiple use approach the state uses.
Can someone enlighten us?
Re: Out of Control | 9:36 a.m. July 6, 2009
As residents we are all part-owners of the lake, so it's important for us
to all pay attention to this and make our voices heard.
This is a complicated situation with a large impact going forward, both financially and in terms of what the lake will be like for our grandchildren. Big decisions that are good to think through carefully before decisions are made.
This is a complicated situation with a large impact going forward, both financially and in terms of what the lake will be like for our grandchildren. Big decisions that are good to think through carefully before decisions are made.
L | 9:52 a.m. July 6, 2009
I don't have any special knowledge or information about the proposal, but I
do know Dick Buehler is a compentent land manager and a good administrator. If
additional "help" is needed to give the lake proper evaluation, I
think it would be best to do that rather than to consider a whole new agency or
organization.
The division is governed by laws as to what they can do and cannot do. If they are following the law, don't "bash" them, ... if not correct the problem. If the laws need changing, address your concerns to your elected representatives.
The division is governed by laws as to what they can do and cannot do. If they are following the law, don't "bash" them, ... if not correct the problem. If the laws need changing, address your concerns to your elected representatives.
re: Matthew | 10:14 a.m. July 6, 2009
You don't understand the problem with the north arm of the lake. Because
it has no outlet there is a constant flow of water through the causeway from
south to north. The south arm has an outlet - the gaps in the causeway. This
makes the south arm unnaturally fresh and the north arm unnaturally salty.
Putting more evaporation ponds on the north arm means pulling water out, which
pulls more water through to the north arm, reducing the salinity of the north
arm and perhaps the lake as a whole.
People should go to the lake and look before believing Atwood. Or maybe Atwood should read the research before claiming to be Casandra. Casandra had magical powers and was mythological. Now a days we try to use real life science and policy.
Or maybe the reporter or editor could have done some scientific fact checking.
People should go to the lake and look before believing Atwood. Or maybe Atwood should read the research before claiming to be Casandra. Casandra had magical powers and was mythological. Now a days we try to use real life science and policy.
Or maybe the reporter or editor could have done some scientific fact checking.
Dan | 10:36 a.m. July 6, 2009
Atwood is the last person to "manage" this lake! She is the same one
who said we "needed the pumps" 25 years ago, because she "was
correct" about the increasing level of the lake. Has she ever been on the
causeway and listened to the sound of 3 8' culverts passing water to the
north arm of the lake on a hot day? Her current envionmental alarmist reasons
are founded in "scientific fact" as much now as then.
Evaporation is the only life cycle for the north arm. If we can get paid for it all the better!
Evaporation is the only life cycle for the north arm. If we can get paid for it all the better!
Utz | 10:55 a.m. July 6, 2009
If the mineral company finds a way to remove the chemicals without increasing
evaporation, then let them.
Otherwise they are speeding up the death of the lake. To be a viable resource it needs to have it's salinity level dropped.
Otherwise they are speeding up the death of the lake. To be a viable resource it needs to have it's salinity level dropped.
cwm1969 | 10:59 a.m. July 6, 2009
Please tell me why I should care what Genevieve Atwood thinks. Please also tell
me how my personal pet projects or gripes with government could get a 5-page
online story on the D-News.
Just what we need! | 11:09 a.m. July 6, 2009
In this time of Democrat and treehugger-caused economic catastrophe, we have
another tree-hugger advocating a "go slow" approach to jobs and
development, wanting to "give the lake its due."
FYI -- the lake is a puddle of water. It has no due. It's not a sentient, mystical, mythic creature with some sort of new age soul. It's a resource. If it can be exploited, it should be.
de Frietas said, "The public needs to understand that creating more jobs and more fertilizer isn't the best answer for the state . . . ."
Shows how out of touch these tree huggers are.
Yes, creating more jobs is exactly the best answer for the state.
FYI -- the lake is a puddle of water. It has no due. It's not a sentient, mystical, mythic creature with some sort of new age soul. It's a resource. If it can be exploited, it should be.
de Frietas said, "The public needs to understand that creating more jobs and more fertilizer isn't the best answer for the state . . . ."
Shows how out of touch these tree huggers are.
Yes, creating more jobs is exactly the best answer for the state.
Cosmo | 11:26 a.m. July 6, 2009
Translation:1 Atwood wants to be the Lake Champion,which means she wants
money.
2:Nothing is fragile, that's the scam. Life itself,
is very hardy, and determined to survive.
3.Pretty soon these eco-wack jobs will claim that the Magma below us, is fragile.
2:Nothing is fragile, that's the scam. Life itself,
is very hardy, and determined to survive.
3.Pretty soon these eco-wack jobs will claim that the Magma below us, is fragile.
Lew Jeppson | 11:26 a.m. July 6, 2009
I know for a fact that Atwood is for use of natural resources. She is also
right in her beliefs that there is a whole lot we don't know about the
lake. I took a physical geology class whose TA was doing his dissertation on
the lake, and boy we really got an interesting earful about what is known and
not known about the lake. The fact is, the lake has been thoroughly trashed by
intersts insensitive to it science and potential.
D,Bauer | 1:34 p.m. July 6, 2009
I spend several years during the 90’s on the GSL advisory committee and
made my living on the lake for over eleven years. When the causeway was built
the plan was that the north arm would flow back to the southern lake and mix
the more concentrated brines in the north with the south. Additional extraction
of north arm minerals and renewal of it’s brine by south arm waters will
dilute the brine in the south. The hydrology and the ecology of the lake is
complex and I do not understand it all. But the dilution of the brine in the
south arm will increase the evaporation rate ( water evaporates at a higher rate
than brine) and impact the industries on the southern portion where there are
three times the number of employees than that at Little Mountain in Box
Elder.
Lakeside | 1:37 p.m. July 6, 2009
Contrary to the prevailing (and uninformed) sentiment here, Atwood is no tree
hugger. In fact, she served in the Legislature as a Republican and ran for
Congress as the Republican against Wayne Owens. She has made her love of the
GSL a life-time study, based upon a policy and science approach (both of which
she has professional experience with).
I'm no tree hugger either, but think it is shortsighted to not look at the best way to manage this imporant resource. If this extraction application lowers the lake by two to three feet and increases salinity it seems prudent to understand how that will affect the ecosystem.
I'm no tree hugger either, but think it is shortsighted to not look at the best way to manage this imporant resource. If this extraction application lowers the lake by two to three feet and increases salinity it seems prudent to understand how that will affect the ecosystem.
Matthew | 2:34 p.m. July 6, 2009
Not to put too fine a point on it, but telling me I "don't
understand" is a truly ignorant remark coming from someone one who knows
nothing about me and what I understand. Lots of people know a little about the
lake. I know more than most (although perhaps not more than the responder
above, since he/she doesn't offer any name). Dr. Atwood knows even more
still. You may disagree with her, but arguing that neither of us understands is
really a very lame argument. Not knowing how informed Dr. Atwood is about the
Great Salt Lake does speak volumes about someone who claims she is uninformed or
that she "should read the research." Both are laughable
statements.
The issue here is stewardship. Raising a red flag about whether our stewardship of the Great Salt Lake is adequate isn't wacko, environmental or otherwise. Again, disagreeing about policy conclusions can be done without trying to belittle or vilify opposing parties.
The issue here is stewardship. Raising a red flag about whether our stewardship of the Great Salt Lake is adequate isn't wacko, environmental or otherwise. Again, disagreeing about policy conclusions can be done without trying to belittle or vilify opposing parties.
Mother Nature | 3:26 p.m. July 6, 2009
I am no tree-hugging liberal - but I am truely shocked at some of the comments
being made here.
Do some of you really, honestly believe you can treat the Earth anyway you please, and there is never going to be any consequences for those actions?
Before the EPA - you might not have seen the sun on a cloudless day because of the all the SMOG. [emission reqmnts].
Or, all the rainbows of oil in every open body of water in North America.
Or watched car after car throw garbage out the windows on the freeways before the litter laws.
And trucks driving freely dumping who knows what - because it was a just a desert wasteland.
Maybe none of you are old enough to remember seeing kids in wheelchairs, mentally retarded from Lead and Mercury poisoning.
Give me a break!!!
Some of these comments are more frightening than any so-called enviromentalist scare tactic ever could.
Yes, humans do have an impact on the enviroment.
You don't need to be a scientist, tree-hugger or a Democrat to show some common sense.
Do some of you really, honestly believe you can treat the Earth anyway you please, and there is never going to be any consequences for those actions?
Before the EPA - you might not have seen the sun on a cloudless day because of the all the SMOG. [emission reqmnts].
Or, all the rainbows of oil in every open body of water in North America.
Or watched car after car throw garbage out the windows on the freeways before the litter laws.
And trucks driving freely dumping who knows what - because it was a just a desert wasteland.
Maybe none of you are old enough to remember seeing kids in wheelchairs, mentally retarded from Lead and Mercury poisoning.
Give me a break!!!
Some of these comments are more frightening than any so-called enviromentalist scare tactic ever could.
Yes, humans do have an impact on the enviroment.
You don't need to be a scientist, tree-hugger or a Democrat to show some common sense.
Utz | 4:21 p.m. July 6, 2009
This state has plenty of examples of not taking care of it's resources for
everyone.
I'm not a tree hugger, but I know what happens when business goes unregulated.
I'm not a tree hugger, but I know what happens when business goes unregulated.
Tab L. Uno | 4:31 p.m. July 6, 2009
When Genevieve Atwood speaks, it's with authority. As a Republican, she was
one of the last Republican state representatives from the Avenues and as a
former Director of the Utah Geological Society, she has the solid background to
know what she says. I trust her. Glad to see that she's still active in
the public's interest, a true politician with the best interest of the
State at heart. She's the real deal, not like some Republicans who quit.
Great Salt Pond | 5:49 p.m. July 6, 2009
I remember when the GSL ran along I-5.
Legacy Highway today would have been over a mile out in the middle of the Lake!
Antelope Island is no longer and island in the middle but is now part of the mainland.
Hundreds and Hundreds of new houses are already built out well beyond the lake shoreline.
Accelerating the evaporation will cause to soon disappear.
But, I'm no scientist.
Legacy Highway today would have been over a mile out in the middle of the Lake!
Antelope Island is no longer and island in the middle but is now part of the mainland.
Hundreds and Hundreds of new houses are already built out well beyond the lake shoreline.
Accelerating the evaporation will cause to soon disappear.
But, I'm no scientist.
Anonymous | 6:20 p.m. July 6, 2009
Only Utahans can ruin any treasure god created for its natural beauty. Try to
find a mountain slope that not developed or clear cut for ski runs. Utahans
treat the state like a junkie treats his body. It's all about immediate
gratification and forget about tomorrow.
Ronnie Bray | 8:36 p.m. July 6, 2009
""Only Utahans can ruin any treasure god created for its natural...
"" Anonymous | July 6, 2009 at 6:20 p.m.
==========================
The company proposing to carve out vast tracts of the GSL area is not Utahn, but Kansasasian. That was made clear in the opening paragra[phs of the report.
Have you visited the 'beauty' of the GSL?
==========================
The company proposing to carve out vast tracts of the GSL area is not Utahn, but Kansasasian. That was made clear in the opening paragra[phs of the report.
Have you visited the 'beauty' of the GSL?
All you tree huggers | 10:17 p.m. July 6, 2009
. . . trying to convince us you're not -- you ARE.
Why hide from it? What's your hidden agenda?
Why hide from it? What's your hidden agenda?
lake levels | 10:20 p.m. July 6, 2009
The level of the lake fluctuates with the weather cycle. It may have been near
the freeway at some point, but it's also been low enough that they've
recently found platte developments from the 1800s in what was lake during most
of the 1900s.
Turnpike Dam | 10:24 p.m. July 6, 2009
I envision a turnpike/ dam that will run from Tremonton south along Antelope
Island and end by the airport. This will raise the eastern part of the lake
which over several decades will become a fresh water lake. This will allow the
lake to be used as a water supply source. On the enviromental side I would make
man made deltas to increase the bird habitat. With the dam the lake level could
be controlled. I would move one of the pumps to Utah lake to divert water in
wet weather cycles. What do you think?
RE: Turnpike Dam | 1:43 p.m. July 8, 2009
I totally agree - if demorats insist on spending all of our money why not spend
it on something useful. We could turn the whole place into an amazing garden if
we wanted to. There are a couple of problems with your plan though. First of
all our interference 'could' drive some exotic bacterium or something
that only lives in the great salt lake that none of us knows (or really cares)
about into extinction. The other problem would be that with all of the
additional people out there enjoying it someone might accidentally step on a
snail or something and kill it.
Anonymous | 6:14 p.m. July 22, 2009
RE: Turnpike Dam | 1:43 p.m.
It was to be called "Wasatch Lake" but the repulican Governor Norm Bangeter decided to use that money instead to build pumps out in the west desert.
BTW, Norm had a finacial interest in the company that was awarded to contract, but that is another story.
It was to be called "Wasatch Lake" but the repulican Governor Norm Bangeter decided to use that money instead to build pumps out in the west desert.
BTW, Norm had a finacial interest in the company that was awarded to contract, but that is another story.
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If the state can't manage the lake as it is, how can they be trusted to expand mineral extraction. It is the reduction of natural minerals, and the disposal of human waste which makes the lake -- at many locations -- stink.
I am pro-business, but I am not pro ALL businesses, and I think this one needs to be looked at carefully.