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Readers' forum: SB81 shameful
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@Mr reid | 6:06 a.m. July 3, 2009
There is a difference between your personal and religious responsibilities and
governmental responsibility. You seem to have mixed the two. They are separate
and distinct. Why have borders otherwise?
Talking in code | 6:17 a.m. July 3, 2009
It's OK when liberals like Stuart Reid play the religion card but wrong
when conservatives do it.
Comments continue below
@it is shameful 12:50 | 7:33 a.m. July 3, 2009
You are so right. And how about those illegal businesses washing windows, doing
janitorial work, yard work and construction, who drive out the small blue collar
legitimate businessmen. The legislature finally did something right to protect
the citizens of the state.
Paul | 7:36 a.m. July 3, 2009
I think the failure of SB81 is that it is a weak law. The eVerify program
should be required of all employers. If you knowingly hire someone who is
illegal, you should get a nice, big fine. Hire enough illegals and your
business should be forfeit.
Phantom Panther | 8:31 a.m. July 3, 2009
It sounds like the letter writer believes the LDS people have a responsibility
to teach the supposed descendants of the Lamanites that they are
"special" and can do whatever they want (migrate illegally, commit
document fraud, lie to employers, steal SS#s, etc.)? Outrageous!
Confusion | 8:47 a.m. July 3, 2009
I think Mr Reid is confused.
It is also the desert that is to "blossom as the rose". As far as Lamanites also doing so, I think it incongruent that it would be achieved through illegality and unconcern for existing residents of the various states.
It is true that humble, sincere and converted Lamanites were accepted by the Nephites as residents after consulting with the people (Alma 27). In our case the immigrant situation is much different and also the majority of the people have been ignored. It is not often that the voice of the people will choose wrong but it is common for a minority to choose wrong. We should observe to do our business by the voice of the people.
When scriptures speak of carrying Israelites on their shoulders and in their arms, it refers to gentiles nourishing and nursing all Israel with the gospel in the last days. (1 Nephi, 22:7)
It is also the desert that is to "blossom as the rose". As far as Lamanites also doing so, I think it incongruent that it would be achieved through illegality and unconcern for existing residents of the various states.
It is true that humble, sincere and converted Lamanites were accepted by the Nephites as residents after consulting with the people (Alma 27). In our case the immigrant situation is much different and also the majority of the people have been ignored. It is not often that the voice of the people will choose wrong but it is common for a minority to choose wrong. We should observe to do our business by the voice of the people.
When scriptures speak of carrying Israelites on their shoulders and in their arms, it refers to gentiles nourishing and nursing all Israel with the gospel in the last days. (1 Nephi, 22:7)
Stuart | 10:13 a.m. July 3, 2009
My letter suggest a model legislation of compassion in the law not a model of
bigotry. It is interesting that those responding translate that into supporting
illegal behavior. Their response only demonstrates reflects what they are
really about.
Some others who want to twist the meaning of scripture to justify their attitudes also reveal themselves. It is clear that the Lamanites will inherit this land. This land is given to them and we are to help them blossom in it and if we don't, but instead abuse them in, then in the end when they have the power, they will tear into us like a "lion into a lamb." All of this is prophesied. You can choose what side of this issue you are on, but for me and my family we choose to nurture them and do all we can to support them.
Some others who want to twist the meaning of scripture to justify their attitudes also reveal themselves. It is clear that the Lamanites will inherit this land. This land is given to them and we are to help them blossom in it and if we don't, but instead abuse them in, then in the end when they have the power, they will tear into us like a "lion into a lamb." All of this is prophesied. You can choose what side of this issue you are on, but for me and my family we choose to nurture them and do all we can to support them.
utah, christ like people | 10:30 a.m. July 3, 2009
It is amazing to me the lack of compassion and love in this state founded by
those being exiled by the compassionless. Founded by those looking for their
own compassion and also looking to spread it to others. Remember, we took this
land as immigrants at one time from the Indians who rightfully occupied it. If
you don’t learn from history you’re condemned to repeat it. This
land can be taken from us and given to another if God wishes it. God protects
the humble "Zion" like people. Those who nurse the weak and protect
the poor, not those who’s bias stand in the way of being Christ like.
Well done Utah, we have once again proven like the early members of the church
that we can think we are the chosen people and not realize that we are here to
help those who need. Right now the Latin people are those people. The
Lamanites, those who are to inherit this land. Good luck thinking this land is
only for you. I’m sure the Indians believed that at one time too.
Calling a spade a spade | 10:33 a.m. July 3, 2009
Unfortunately obedience to law by the (gag) minute men is a selective
exercise.
If it was obedience to law that truely motivated them, they would be rallying at the freeways because of the speeders, they would refuse to particiate in 4th and 24th of July celebrations, for both of the actions that make these days a holiday were against the law at the time. They would refuse to be on land that was illegally taken against the Indians in violation of treaty or from Mexicans.
The Americans who moved into Texas agreed as a condition of moving in to obey the law of Mexico. When they were denied trial by jury they decided to revolt,which was against the law.
I heard a local talk show host admitting that he was speeding to work one morning, to get to his work on time. Yet he constantly sticks it to those who crossed the border illegally,
Strict adherence to law is for others, never for ourselves our kind.
Given that we have taken so much land from others illegally and under questionable circumtance it is the height of hypocracy for us to insist that these people especially, obey these laws.
If it was obedience to law that truely motivated them, they would be rallying at the freeways because of the speeders, they would refuse to particiate in 4th and 24th of July celebrations, for both of the actions that make these days a holiday were against the law at the time. They would refuse to be on land that was illegally taken against the Indians in violation of treaty or from Mexicans.
The Americans who moved into Texas agreed as a condition of moving in to obey the law of Mexico. When they were denied trial by jury they decided to revolt,which was against the law.
I heard a local talk show host admitting that he was speeding to work one morning, to get to his work on time. Yet he constantly sticks it to those who crossed the border illegally,
Strict adherence to law is for others, never for ourselves our kind.
Given that we have taken so much land from others illegally and under questionable circumtance it is the height of hypocracy for us to insist that these people especially, obey these laws.
Re: Stuart | 10:55 a.m. July 3, 2009
First of all, you're following the typical liberal practice of falsely
equating truth and justice with bigotry and hate.
And since you're playing the religion card, I have a few religious cards for you:
Article of Faith #12 - "We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law."
and
Mosiah 4:27 - "And see that all these things are done in wisdom and order..."
and
1 Ne. 13:15 - "And I beheld the Spirit of the Lord, that it was upon the Gentiles, and they did prosper and obtain the land for their inheritance;"
And since you're playing the religion card, I have a few religious cards for you:
Article of Faith #12 - "We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law."
and
Mosiah 4:27 - "And see that all these things are done in wisdom and order..."
and
1 Ne. 13:15 - "And I beheld the Spirit of the Lord, that it was upon the Gentiles, and they did prosper and obtain the land for their inheritance;"
Stuart | 12:00 p.m. July 3, 2009
Funny, I have never been called liberal before or that I practiced liberality.
I don't believe for a moment that it is liberal or conservative to call for
crafting legislation that is compassionate. It's just right.
Moreover, I have never suggested that laws should not be followed. I have petitioned that our legislature do better and be an example of higher standards instead of following the base instincts of constituent bigotry, creating laws to justify that bigotry.
As for playing the religion card, I am not doing that either. I am expressing prophecy that warns against this bigoted behavior seen by the prophets centuries ago and what the consequences will be for those who engage in such behavior. As a people we have been warned and instructed to be on the side of helping those who have been given this land for their inheritance.
The Gentile inheritance yoy reference, in the end is conditioned upon helping the Lamanites. If they do not help they will lose their shared inheritance and will be destroyed. Prophecy is given for a reason. The question is will you learn from it or continue in the path of despising God's children.
Moreover, I have never suggested that laws should not be followed. I have petitioned that our legislature do better and be an example of higher standards instead of following the base instincts of constituent bigotry, creating laws to justify that bigotry.
As for playing the religion card, I am not doing that either. I am expressing prophecy that warns against this bigoted behavior seen by the prophets centuries ago and what the consequences will be for those who engage in such behavior. As a people we have been warned and instructed to be on the side of helping those who have been given this land for their inheritance.
The Gentile inheritance yoy reference, in the end is conditioned upon helping the Lamanites. If they do not help they will lose their shared inheritance and will be destroyed. Prophecy is given for a reason. The question is will you learn from it or continue in the path of despising God's children.
Anonymous | 12:28 p.m. July 3, 2009
Again, you falsely accuse those in favor of orderly immigration (remember Mosiah
4:27) of being bigoted, and falsely accuse those who rightly disapprove of
illegals' disdain for U.S. law and sovereignty of being hateful. No, God
does not condone lying, cheating and stealing - which is EXACTLY what illegal
immigrants do in this country. John 10:1 - "Verily, verily, I say unto
you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some
other way, the same is a THIEF and a ROBBER."
Regarding "compassion": You exhibit no "compassion" to American citizens who suffer as a result of the legions of illegal invaders giving the U.S. the finger, nor compassion to the good, prospective immigrants who are seeking to immigrate legally but who must suffer the injustice of the disrespectful trespassers unjustly usurping their rightful opportunity.
Regarding "compassion": You exhibit no "compassion" to American citizens who suffer as a result of the legions of illegal invaders giving the U.S. the finger, nor compassion to the good, prospective immigrants who are seeking to immigrate legally but who must suffer the injustice of the disrespectful trespassers unjustly usurping their rightful opportunity.
All Knowing | 1:11 p.m. July 3, 2009
I don't understand why you're calling shameful a law that helps in
preserving America as a sovereign nation. A nation without control of its
borders and immigration is not a nation.
@Stuart | 1:36 p.m. July 3, 2009
I twisted no scripture.
I will merely say in my heart: May God judge between me and thee and reward us accordingly.
I will merely say in my heart: May God judge between me and thee and reward us accordingly.
Amen Brother! | 1:42 p.m. July 3, 2009
Stuart, I've been called a liberal many time and I love what you wrote
above.
Well said.
Well said.
@utah christ-like people | 1:46 p.m. July 3, 2009
The people of Utah came here legally.
We were fleeing from the compassionless of New York, Massachussetts (persecuted there at the beginning) as well as Ohio, Illinois, and Missouri. We had not, and still not, received any redress of grievances and yet still are loyal subjects in all the lands where we live.
When we came to Utah we followed a policy of friendship with the natives who were here.
Utah fought no "Indian wars". Missionaries have gone out from here to all the world and had great success in Hispanic nations. I came here legally myself, and others can too.
If the people of Utah are righteous they will have nothing to fear from any decent person, and no wicked person either, including those who would behave as predatory lions in the midst of lambs.
I hear all the bigotry on the side of those who wish to call us heartless and the like. Most of us stand for law and order. We teach to honor the law of the land, and expect others to do so too.
The land is for the inheritance of all God's people and all the tribe of Joseph, whether Ephraim or Manesseh.
We were fleeing from the compassionless of New York, Massachussetts (persecuted there at the beginning) as well as Ohio, Illinois, and Missouri. We had not, and still not, received any redress of grievances and yet still are loyal subjects in all the lands where we live.
When we came to Utah we followed a policy of friendship with the natives who were here.
Utah fought no "Indian wars". Missionaries have gone out from here to all the world and had great success in Hispanic nations. I came here legally myself, and others can too.
If the people of Utah are righteous they will have nothing to fear from any decent person, and no wicked person either, including those who would behave as predatory lions in the midst of lambs.
I hear all the bigotry on the side of those who wish to call us heartless and the like. Most of us stand for law and order. We teach to honor the law of the land, and expect others to do so too.
The land is for the inheritance of all God's people and all the tribe of Joseph, whether Ephraim or Manesseh.
Another scriptural reference | 2:09 p.m. July 3, 2009
As long as this thread started because of one man's interpretation of
scripture and LDS doctrine, I offer the following:
D&C 58:21-22
21: Let no man break the laws of the land, for he that keepeth the laws of God hath no need to break the laws of the land.
22: Wherefore, be subject to the powers that be, until he reigns whose right it is to reign, and subdues all enemies under his feet.
I think this is very significant and very clear. Think about what kind of country this could be if we all just simply followed the rule of law like we're supposed to.
D&C 58:21-22
21: Let no man break the laws of the land, for he that keepeth the laws of God hath no need to break the laws of the land.
22: Wherefore, be subject to the powers that be, until he reigns whose right it is to reign, and subdues all enemies under his feet.
I think this is very significant and very clear. Think about what kind of country this could be if we all just simply followed the rule of law like we're supposed to.
Nothing Shameful | 2:43 p.m. July 3, 2009
There is absolutely nothing shameful in protecting our borders and in requiring
and enforcing compliance with the immigration laws. The writer misuses
inapplicable scriptures and ignores the ones that truly speak to the issue (see
"Another scriptural reference" and "Re Stuart above). What's
shameful is that there are so many who advocate lawbreaking out of compassion.
As someone once said, we should be a nation with high fences and wide gates.
Let them get in line to come in legally like everyone else.
What a Joke | 2:51 p.m. July 3, 2009
The writer writes about the Lamanites well guess what the Utahns have shoved the
real "lamanites" onto reservations and treated them with distain from
the day they stole their lands. The and other south of the border are not the
natives of Utah, the American Indian folks are
Passion and Compassion | 2:58 p.m. July 3, 2009
The Book of Mormon teaches that the Lamanites were always a scourge to apostate
Nephites. Yet while the Nephites were humble and obedient they were not
scourged but delivered, in all cases, from their enemies.
In Third Nephi (chapter 16)Jesus taught that there will be a similar scourge for those Gentiles who reject the fullness of the Gospel when they have, to cut it short, become full of pride and wickedness of all kinds. Those Gentiles who repent will, on the other hand, be regarded as a part of Israel, even if they do not already have lineage through Israel.
ALL the proud and ALL the wicked will be destroyed before Christ returns again, regardless of race. Though the wicked may punish the wicked they will not escape punishment themselves.
In Third Nephi (chapter 16)Jesus taught that there will be a similar scourge for those Gentiles who reject the fullness of the Gospel when they have, to cut it short, become full of pride and wickedness of all kinds. Those Gentiles who repent will, on the other hand, be regarded as a part of Israel, even if they do not already have lineage through Israel.
ALL the proud and ALL the wicked will be destroyed before Christ returns again, regardless of race. Though the wicked may punish the wicked they will not escape punishment themselves.
Common sense | 3:02 p.m. July 3, 2009
Simple logic dictates that being law-abiding and hoping others will be as
honorable has nothing to do with bigotry or racism. What is truly shameful is
that puffed-up, self-righteous religious zealots and others have become the
worst kind of bigots themselves with their slanderous and unfounded accusations
of xenophobia and bigotry in their fellow citizens who are wise enough to see
that we all must be subject to the same laws, with no double standards. It is
the willingness of most of us to abide by our laws that preserves our
nation’s cohesiveness and the fabric of our civilized society. We have a
moral obligation to each other to obey the laws for the greater good of all.
You don’t know those you accuse. You don’t know our hearts. My family and large circle of friends (both of which include immigrants and a variety of ethnic groups and faith traditions) are the most compassionate and generous people I know and are every bit as pure-hearted as you claim to be. It is possible to “nurture” others from all over the world without breaking laws; we can and we do. We also support SB81.
You don’t know those you accuse. You don’t know our hearts. My family and large circle of friends (both of which include immigrants and a variety of ethnic groups and faith traditions) are the most compassionate and generous people I know and are every bit as pure-hearted as you claim to be. It is possible to “nurture” others from all over the world without breaking laws; we can and we do. We also support SB81.
Utahns and Utes | 3:06 p.m. July 3, 2009
I would be interested to know when Utahns "shoved Lamanites onto
reservations".
I have never treated Lamanites with disdain and have never ever heard a native American either as an individual or a group talked about, let alone treated with disdain, in the State of Utah.
I have never treated Lamanites with disdain and have never ever heard a native American either as an individual or a group talked about, let alone treated with disdain, in the State of Utah.
Stuart | 3:16 p.m. July 3, 2009
Once again, I have never suggested that laws should not be followed. I am
suggesting Utah above of all states should create a model for the nation on how
to show compassion, doing what's best for all concerned.
It is not about Ephriam and Manasseh. Both are found among these immigrants. It is about whether we will "shield" them against their enemies so they will "shield" us against ours in the last days. Too many who should know better are attacking rather than shielding and they will reap the whirlwind if they do not change.
The facts are they will have this land because they are "the people of promise", and those who assist them will will prosper and those who do not will suffer generationally.
This is the time and this is the issue we were raised up for. Will we make the right choice and fulfill our responsibilities to assist them. This is the great question before the people of Utah. To date, we demonstrated through SB81 we have chosen wrongly creating a law inimical to their mission.
It is not about Ephriam and Manasseh. Both are found among these immigrants. It is about whether we will "shield" them against their enemies so they will "shield" us against ours in the last days. Too many who should know better are attacking rather than shielding and they will reap the whirlwind if they do not change.
The facts are they will have this land because they are "the people of promise", and those who assist them will will prosper and those who do not will suffer generationally.
This is the time and this is the issue we were raised up for. Will we make the right choice and fulfill our responsibilities to assist them. This is the great question before the people of Utah. To date, we demonstrated through SB81 we have chosen wrongly creating a law inimical to their mission.
SB | 3:31 p.m. July 3, 2009
An immigrant is a person who has been formally authorized to live, work and
reside in the United States. The term immigrant when applies to persons entering
the country illegally is a deception because it implies that those who do not
support illegal entry, are, against immigrants. That's a false notion that
needs to be clarified.
I don't think that the Lord provided the 12th Article of Faith for no apparent reason. Compassion includes teaching people to be obedient to the laws of the land as no one will be able to attain the highest glories through disobedience or condoning illegal activity on this earth.
I don't think that the Lord provided the 12th Article of Faith for no apparent reason. Compassion includes teaching people to be obedient to the laws of the land as no one will be able to attain the highest glories through disobedience or condoning illegal activity on this earth.
Stewart | 3:47 p.m. July 3, 2009
I wonder how Stuart would have our immigration officials separate the
"Lamanites" from the rest of the illegal aliens. Illegal aliens are
not a race of people, they are an ethnic group, and they come from every
continent and every race.
There are over 5 billion people poorer than Mexican illegal aliens, that if we had Stuart's compassion we should allow into the United States as well. That would seem a little crowded to me. So, if we have no way of determining who are true Lamanites, where would we draw the line. Most of the people of Brazil and Haiti are not Lamanites, but of course the Hispanic race groups don't include them either. Stuart needs to mix a little logic(what he calls hate and bigotry) with his compassion.
There are over 5 billion people poorer than Mexican illegal aliens, that if we had Stuart's compassion we should allow into the United States as well. That would seem a little crowded to me. So, if we have no way of determining who are true Lamanites, where would we draw the line. Most of the people of Brazil and Haiti are not Lamanites, but of course the Hispanic race groups don't include them either. Stuart needs to mix a little logic(what he calls hate and bigotry) with his compassion.
Re: Common sense | 3:50 p.m. July 3, 2009
Well said Common sense.
Who are the enemies? | 4:03 p.m. July 3, 2009
I have never read anything about being "shielded" from our enemies by
any racial, ethnic or cultural group.
I have read: he [God] will not
suffer that the wicked shall destroy the righteous (1 Nephi:22) and that God will destroy their enemies "even if it so be as by fire."
I don't see racial groups;I see good people and bad people and people torn between good and evil. I have seen people clinging to the truth and people feeling their way towards worldly popularity and wealth.
I have read: God is no respecter of persons: but in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him."
(Acts 10:34-35)
The righteous will be gathered in from all nations and all who qualify are reckoned to be of Israel. The birthright is with Joseph, and was passed on to his son Ephraim. Manasseh are of Joseph also but descent from neither gives anyone a free pass. It all comes down to personal righteousness.
I have read: he [God] will not
suffer that the wicked shall destroy the righteous (1 Nephi:22) and that God will destroy their enemies "even if it so be as by fire."
I don't see racial groups;I see good people and bad people and people torn between good and evil. I have seen people clinging to the truth and people feeling their way towards worldly popularity and wealth.
I have read: God is no respecter of persons: but in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him."
(Acts 10:34-35)
The righteous will be gathered in from all nations and all who qualify are reckoned to be of Israel. The birthright is with Joseph, and was passed on to his son Ephraim. Manasseh are of Joseph also but descent from neither gives anyone a free pass. It all comes down to personal righteousness.
Re: Stuart | 4:10 p.m. July 3, 2009
"Too many who should know better are attacking rather than
shielding..."
No, Stuart, we are not attacking the illegal aliens; rather, the illegal aliens are attacking US. They are violating our borders; they are lying, stealing, and cheating; many of them are consciously intent upon an unjust "Reconquista" of the southwestern United States. Therefore they are an affront to us as citizens of the United States.
You are "looking beyond the mark," Stuart. I exhort you to open your eyes and to unstop your ears to ALL of the words of the prophets, that you be not deceived.
No, Stuart, we are not attacking the illegal aliens; rather, the illegal aliens are attacking US. They are violating our borders; they are lying, stealing, and cheating; many of them are consciously intent upon an unjust "Reconquista" of the southwestern United States. Therefore they are an affront to us as citizens of the United States.
You are "looking beyond the mark," Stuart. I exhort you to open your eyes and to unstop your ears to ALL of the words of the prophets, that you be not deceived.
Anonymous | 4:20 p.m. July 3, 2009
If the federal government passes a law, let the federal government enforce it,
or not.
Its up to each state to enforce its own laws. Not those of other jurisdictions.
Its up to each state to enforce its own laws. Not those of other jurisdictions.
SB | 4:40 p.m. July 3, 2009
Please, Mormon doctrine says nothing about illegal aliens being the Lamanites
and gathering in Utah or the rest of the country to work and live better lives.
This myth has been circulating among some wards and it's notably false.
Elder Russell M. Nelson:
"The Lord has decreed the establishment of Zion in each realm where He has given His Saints their birth and nationality. Scripture foretells that the people shall be gathered home to the lands of their inheritance, and shall be established in all their lands of promise. Every nation is the gathering place for its own people. The place of gathering for Brazilian Saints is in Brazil; the place of gathering for Nigerian Saints is in Nigeria; the place of gathering for Korean Saints is in Korea; and so forth. Zion is the pure in heart. Zion is wherever righteous Saints are."
D&C 58:21
“Let no man break the laws of the land, for he that keepeth the laws of God hath no need to break the laws of the land.”
Associating illegal immigration with the Lamanites is false doctrine.
Elder Russell M. Nelson:
"The Lord has decreed the establishment of Zion in each realm where He has given His Saints their birth and nationality. Scripture foretells that the people shall be gathered home to the lands of their inheritance, and shall be established in all their lands of promise. Every nation is the gathering place for its own people. The place of gathering for Brazilian Saints is in Brazil; the place of gathering for Nigerian Saints is in Nigeria; the place of gathering for Korean Saints is in Korea; and so forth. Zion is the pure in heart. Zion is wherever righteous Saints are."
D&C 58:21
“Let no man break the laws of the land, for he that keepeth the laws of God hath no need to break the laws of the land.”
Associating illegal immigration with the Lamanites is false doctrine.
arj | 5:46 p.m. July 3, 2009
You ignorant fence sitting mormons can hide behind your laws of the land all
day. No one is losing any thing to these beatiful and promise people. Our
economy thrives on explotaion. We exploit them paying them slave labor while
looking down our nose and having them hide in the shadows. Don't you Irish,
African American, Mormons remeber how this feels? We spend our energy building
fences rather that fixing the imigration system and allowing these people to
contribute.
What gives us more right to this land? Because our "Pioneer Ancestors"(another word for illegal alien) stole this land from the indians and the mexicans. You have to hate these people for being on our land before we got here.
Racism has no part in a True Christian. God did not make these borders and does not care. These are the people that your Book of Mormon speaks of inheriting this land. The day will soon come when you will choose to follow your political party and hide behind your bigotry or live your faith. Wheat and the tares my friends. These people are here to stay ...God willing... (HE IS!)
What gives us more right to this land? Because our "Pioneer Ancestors"(another word for illegal alien) stole this land from the indians and the mexicans. You have to hate these people for being on our land before we got here.
Racism has no part in a True Christian. God did not make these borders and does not care. These are the people that your Book of Mormon speaks of inheriting this land. The day will soon come when you will choose to follow your political party and hide behind your bigotry or live your faith. Wheat and the tares my friends. These people are here to stay ...God willing... (HE IS!)
Stuart | 6:47 p.m. July 3, 2009
Once yet Again, I have never suggested laws shouldn't be obeyed rather
compassionate laws should be created. I don't know why that distinction is
hard to understand.
I am also not speaking of a gathering. I am stating this is their land of inheritance. They have been coming here and will continue to come. No hand will stay them. The question is what will our attitudes be towards them and will we create laws to support them in an orderly and compassionate way.
Some have made good points about distinguishing between Lamanites and other immigrants. All immigrants should be treated with compassion, however, there should be exceptional consideration for those of this hemisphere.
Those who suggest I am looking beyond the mark should know that every point I have made can be referenced back to the prophets. They clearly state this is their land; those who fight them will be destroyed; and they will build the city of Zion.
Our test is whether we are willing to carry them on our shoulders and in our arms "assisting and supporting" their mission.
I am also not speaking of a gathering. I am stating this is their land of inheritance. They have been coming here and will continue to come. No hand will stay them. The question is what will our attitudes be towards them and will we create laws to support them in an orderly and compassionate way.
Some have made good points about distinguishing between Lamanites and other immigrants. All immigrants should be treated with compassion, however, there should be exceptional consideration for those of this hemisphere.
Those who suggest I am looking beyond the mark should know that every point I have made can be referenced back to the prophets. They clearly state this is their land; those who fight them will be destroyed; and they will build the city of Zion.
Our test is whether we are willing to carry them on our shoulders and in our arms "assisting and supporting" their mission.
@arj | 6:49 p.m. July 3, 2009
I would love one of these "slave labor" jobs, but have been passed
over for Mexicans. If they were here legally, good luck to them. I have worked
shoulder to shoulder with a number of them. They were a mixed bunch, some good
workers, others not, most unable to communicate much in English.
Don't call me "my friend" when you are falsely accusing me of bigotry, theft, lying, and racism.
Illegals of any nation survive, ironically, by lying and stealing identities, don't they? This sounds like hypocrisy. "True Christians" don't lie and steal, and bear false witness.
Don't call me "my friend" when you are falsely accusing me of bigotry, theft, lying, and racism.
Illegals of any nation survive, ironically, by lying and stealing identities, don't they? This sounds like hypocrisy. "True Christians" don't lie and steal, and bear false witness.
Lands of inheritance | 7:12 p.m. July 3, 2009
If I understand correctly Mexicans generally are half "native
American" and half Spanish. That means, if we are holding fast to old
grievances, one half of such a person is a conqueror of the other half of such a
person.
Is it being suggested that anyone who was here before Europeans, Asians, and others arrived in this hemisphere has a right to live anywhere in North or South America without question?
That was not the case before Europeans and others arrived. It was not the case before the conquistadores arrived. There were internal divisions within nations and diverse nations in Central and South America, and various distinct tribes in North America,with linguistic and cultural differences.
Is it being suggested that anyone who was here before Europeans, Asians, and others arrived in this hemisphere has a right to live anywhere in North or South America without question?
That was not the case before Europeans and others arrived. It was not the case before the conquistadores arrived. There were internal divisions within nations and diverse nations in Central and South America, and various distinct tribes in North America,with linguistic and cultural differences.
All Knowing | 8:26 p.m. July 3, 2009
@Stuart 6:47 p.m.:
"I am stating this is their land of inheritance."
Wrong. There is no Semite DNA in the veins of our neighbors to the south. It's all Asian DNA. If there is European DNA it originates from the invading Spaniards.
"No hand will stay them."
I think you meant to say: "no fence will stay them, nor will any current American politician."
"The question is what will our attitudes be towards them and will we create laws to support them in an orderly and compassionate way?"
We already have laws. But it is not to support them. The laws are to try to keep this nation sovereign by managing who gets to come in.
"I am stating this is their land of inheritance."
Wrong. There is no Semite DNA in the veins of our neighbors to the south. It's all Asian DNA. If there is European DNA it originates from the invading Spaniards.
"No hand will stay them."
I think you meant to say: "no fence will stay them, nor will any current American politician."
"The question is what will our attitudes be towards them and will we create laws to support them in an orderly and compassionate way?"
We already have laws. But it is not to support them. The laws are to try to keep this nation sovereign by managing who gets to come in.
Specifics | 3:36 a.m. July 4, 2009
Stuart,
In your posts you have consistently ignored the fact that these immigrants are here illegally. They broke our laws. The circumstances they are now in, however complex, are a consequence of their decision to enter the USA illegally.
You plead for compassion without offering specific suggestions for how to deal with the situation at hand. Sorry, that approach may make you feel better but it does not solve the problem.
I and others who have posted are asking that our laws be followed and enforced. Those who come to country illegally are placing a tremendous burden upon the country socially and financially. Now they are pawns in a political battle for more power.
I welcome any and all who choose to come to the USA legally. Come as millions of others have and contribute positively to the nation.
In your posts you have consistently ignored the fact that these immigrants are here illegally. They broke our laws. The circumstances they are now in, however complex, are a consequence of their decision to enter the USA illegally.
You plead for compassion without offering specific suggestions for how to deal with the situation at hand. Sorry, that approach may make you feel better but it does not solve the problem.
I and others who have posted are asking that our laws be followed and enforced. Those who come to country illegally are placing a tremendous burden upon the country socially and financially. Now they are pawns in a political battle for more power.
I welcome any and all who choose to come to the USA legally. Come as millions of others have and contribute positively to the nation.
Building City of Zion | 9:35 a.m. July 4, 2009
There are clearly two separate and opposite groups, though.
There are the righteous saints, including righteous "native Americans" who will work together to build this City, and there are the wicked who will tear into the wicked Gentiles.
Those who destroy like lions attacking sheep will, according to Section 87 of the Doctrine and Covenants, "become exceedingly angry" and "vex the Gentiles". Great anger is not the mark of a righteous people.
And righteous saints are not "Gentiles".
There are the righteous saints, including righteous "native Americans" who will work together to build this City, and there are the wicked who will tear into the wicked Gentiles.
Those who destroy like lions attacking sheep will, according to Section 87 of the Doctrine and Covenants, "become exceedingly angry" and "vex the Gentiles". Great anger is not the mark of a righteous people.
And righteous saints are not "Gentiles".
all I can say is: | 4:01 p.m. July 5, 2009
Stuart, you must be on the fringes of the Church because you are preaching
things I have never read or heard in all my years of studying the Gospel, except
from those who eventually get so far out there they either leave the Church
voluntarily or are thrown out. Which are you? I, for one, truly wonder about
your sanity.
Stuart | 5:19 p.m. July 5, 2009
Again, I am not supporting illegal behavior. I believe in sustaining law. I
was once a lawmaker and respect their role.
Second, I have shared ideas with lawmakers. It would be good to review this newspaper's editorial on the subject. I concur with its editorial position.
Third, it is not true that those who will tear into the Gentiles will be wicked. They are the Lord's people (3 Nephi 21, among many other chapters).
Lastly, I am not on the fringe nor am I insane. I am a sitting bishop for the second time. If you read the BofM as through the eyes of a Lamanite you will see things you have never seen before that will cause you to have compassion for these people we are secifically instructed to "nurture" and "shield."
Second, I have shared ideas with lawmakers. It would be good to review this newspaper's editorial on the subject. I concur with its editorial position.
Third, it is not true that those who will tear into the Gentiles will be wicked. They are the Lord's people (3 Nephi 21, among many other chapters).
Lastly, I am not on the fringe nor am I insane. I am a sitting bishop for the second time. If you read the BofM as through the eyes of a Lamanite you will see things you have never seen before that will cause you to have compassion for these people we are secifically instructed to "nurture" and "shield."
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It is shameful that SB81 begins to take a step to encourage employers to use e-verify to protect childrens Id's.
It is shameful that SB81 provides a job protection clause that protects not only a utah citizen, but a LEGAL alien from loosing their job and being replaced by an illegal alien.
It is shamefull that a Jailer is required to verify the status and identity of a person who has 5-10 different Ids and is considered a flight risk.
It is shameful, and ungodly that someone condones and advocates for illegal immigration with its direct ties to Organized Crime which is the network that smuggles and trafficks Human Beings for unbelivable profits.
It is shameful that someone encourages the exploitation of Human Beings for the purpose of Cheap Labor.
It is shameful not to encourage LEGAL immigration, with dignity and respect and security into our nation.