Reader comments
Challenging issues and keeping the faith: Part 9

I don't know why I keep reading this series. The logic makes my head hurt

Another great article by Mr. Ash. I thoroughly agree with his thought here:

"The best prevention against an intellectually-damaged testimony is to understand the complexities and potential pitfalls in our ideology before we encounter them."

LDS doctrine teaches that we learn truth BOTH with the mind and the heart, not just the heart (see D&C 8:2).

We must have the Holy Ghost teach us truth, but we MUST study deeper the gospel and church history.

We cannot be afraid of church history. In fact, I love it and embrace it. A fantastic book is "Joseph Smith Rough Stone Rolling" by Richard Bushman. You can find it at Deseret Book.

Please be prepared (and embrace) that church history is not as black and white and as simple as is normally thought by the average member. But that is the truth that is so wonderful - the fact that God is more flexible and mysterious than we realize, and that is just awesome to me.

Comments that are unrepresentative are removed from this site, why aren't articles? I'm sorry, but his explanation about why people leave Mormonism is rather incorrect. I guess did leave because I had unrealistic expectations: I expected not to be lied to.

I guess your comments don't get posted if you don't believe the Church is true.

To : A man's perspective - I have read and enjoyed rough stone rolling but I perceived it as a book that tried to give enough information to be considered accurate while at the same time withholding some of the more devastating facts. I don't find it any more credible than many of the anti-mormon publications (also very slanted) that are out there. It is tough to find credible info from either side of the argument

Mr. Ash makes his living as an apologist for the LDS Church. I don't think his opinion can be trusted as Neutral.

To Anonymous:
I agree with you completely. Both sides of the argument seem to have an agenda that includes leaving out the other side's strongest points and evidences.

I gave up on that route and took my studies to the source. The Book of Mormon, Volumes of the History of the church, the Journal of Discourses, the Ensign, The Millennial Star, The Evening and Morning Star, and other original church publications, writings and journals.

There's plenty there for anyone to draw their own conclusions.

Quoting from the article..."The best prevention against an intellectually-damaged testimony is to understand the complexities and potential pitfalls in our ideology before we encounter them."


Is that code for censor all comments???

The manner in which my testimony came to me makes it perfect,without a one percent room for doubt.It was one of those events that could not ever be denied for to do so would be like saying the sun does not shine when I'm looking up at it.I do not understand why I recieved such a testimony but I did.I find its a personal gift and one that cannot be passed on to others as much as I would desire that.

To Anonymous,

A book that includes "everything" - every nook and cranny is hardly credible either. I am not a historian, but I would think that many issues (especially the more-sensational and "devastating") would be more questionable as to their reliability as historical facts. Joseph Smith had many enemies, and it is reasonable to assume that many things were said about him that were not true or do not pass historical credibility.

That said, Rough Stone Rolling does indeed include many things that people have left the church over. I have a hard time not accepting Rough Stone Rolling as credible. Bushman has a Harvard Ph.D and taught there also - while that doesn't make him the final authority on historical facts, it is plenty good enough for me to accept his writings as credible.

But this is slightly off topic, so I won't say more.

Thanks for your comments (anonymous 11:07),

Apparently comments do get posted irrespective of whether you believe in the church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, or not.

Yes, it is tough to find credible info about historical matters and details. People naturally have different perceptions and recollections about everything. Man doesn't even understand man, and yet he tries to rationalize who God is by consulting man.

I don't think God can be understood by logic alone. No wonder the first poster's head hurts. But the article is simply directing people to ask God in faith.

Don't rely on my post, on this article, on other Church affiliated persons, OR on persons who argue the opposite. If your belief is based on what someone else said or did, than it is more a replica of someone else's belief than it is your own.

"If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him." (James 1:5)

The article concludes that a person is less likely to deny their own spiritual experience; it only advocates one side--God's.

Re: kenny and his testimony. Why does the person in charge of these things make apparent random selections to endow 'iron clad' testimonies to some people, (who always say they are unworthy) while others struggle and try with all their heart to even get so much as a whisper from their god?

To: Who's on the Lord's side

What if my spiritual experience does not lead me to Mormonism? Does that make it less valid? I think Mr. Ash would say that it does. My problem with religion in general (and Mormonism in particular) is that it advocates individual spirituality only if it leads you to agree with the ideals of the group.

What if my personal revelation told me that Mormonism was not true? Would I be told I was answered by a false spirit?

The problem with the LDS doctrine/history is that they are constantly trying to fit a round peg in a square hole. If everything was true with regards to the BOM then everything should just flow. They would know where the history actually took place. Such as knowing exactly where the hill cumorah actually was. Artifacts would be found to support their claims. DNA evidence would be found to support the claims of Joseph Smith with regards to the Lamenites. Instead, excuses and plenty of them, are used to try and explain why things just don't add up.

Mormons are answered by false spirits all the time. Mormons also believe that there are many opportunities given to all of us to embrace as much truth as we can. Just do your best with what spiritual gifts you've been given and stop worry about if the mormons will approve of your choice... and if you're honest and do feel impressed by mormons, then join with them, and good for you.

That's mormon doctrine, that every man honestly pursue a spiritual relationship with God first, then enter into sacred covenants with God, and try your best to stay true to them.

If you can't bring yourself to enter covenants, then do the best you can. God will look upon all men by the faith they exhibit and the truth they embrace.

The are several basic tenets that lead to a true testimony,rather than affecttion of Godly things vs infection(Holy Ghost) of Godly things. 1. Regeneration of ones soul should lead to the exaltation of Christ,(The triune God). 2. I am a sinner(without hope) and need a Savior,the devil would not teach that,and the only thing I add to my salvation is sin.

I agree and applaud the efforts of those individuals who favor a frank and honest study of the history of our Church. We need to have frank discussions with our youth about Joseph Smith and polygamny, how the Book of Mormon was really translated, Kinder Hook Plates, the Book of Abraham, Blacks and the Priesthood, etc., etc. Let's not white-wash our history.

Only good can come from the truth. Truth is light and knowledge.

I completely agree. My question is, what happens when after a frank discussion of some of these issues, the youth in question are left not just intellectually but spiritually dissatisfied with the answers that they receive?

It's been a source of pain to me over the years that when I was struggling with some of these issues, and asking these questions with faith and prayer, the answers I got get me called an apostate.

I may be asking for the impossible here, but it would be nice to have it considered that, just as many of you can best pursue your spiritual growth within the church, and received spiritual confirmation of this truth, I can best pursue my spiritual growth outside of the church, and that the spiritual confirmation I received was just as valid. Insisting that I have been misled by a false spirit seems to me to be a pretty glib way of dismissing anyone whose spiritual experiences don't fit a mold with which you are comfortable (apart from being somewhat personally insulting.)

The LDS Church doesn't NEED to whitewash history! OK, so Joseph Smith did something bad in 1840 and Brigham Young said something strange and horrible in 1860. So these things are supposed to make me somehow believe the covenant of baptism to serve Christ and keep his commandments are wrong?

If I were somehow convinced Mormonism were false, I'd have to be an agnostic. No other religion teaches a God who metes out perfect justice and mercy. That triune god isn't very fair.

Kenny-Are you saying you received a sign? Because as I understand it that's the test, read the book of mormon and sincerely pray and the holy spirit will give you sign (burning in the bossom). How is this different from asking for a sign?

To Anonymous 12:21,

If you pray and ask God, with sincerity and real intent, having studied it out in your mind and in your heart, you would not recieve revelation from God that Jesus of the Bible is not true and that Jesus is not the Christ, your Lord and your Savior. But If you did receive personal revelation that the Bible is not true, then who am I to say that your personal revelation is less valid or of a false spirit. The same goes for the Book of Mormon. Put it to the test.

If God reveals to you that Mormonism is not true, so be it. Your experience is for you to figure out, not for me to question.

But if God reveals to you, like he has to me, both the Bible and the Book of Mormon to be true then you have found His Church. Whereas, those who only find the Bible to be true, still have some narrowing down of truths to do (many churches believe in the Bible). But just as you may not believe my experience I reserve the right to not have to base my beliefs on whatever your experience.