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LDS Church urged to soften gay stance
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John | 11:56 a.m. June 25, 2009
203 comments on story about a petition that now has 162 signatures. Interesting
about the way media works and how the minority gets a louder voice than the
majority. The due process of legislation has taken place and deserves the
respect it got over 200 years ago in founding this country
Rejection? | 12:01 p.m. June 25, 2009
To Suicide 11:41 a.m. June 25, 2009. I can't believe I'm actually
typing a response, but are you really serious? By your logic, anyone who
commits suicide does so because they are a sinner and no unclean thing can enter
the kingdom of heaven. So is God rejecting all sinners and causing them to
commit suicide? Get real, all can repent including anyone with desires,
tendencies, or a disposition to do anything that is less than perfect. Seems
like that includes everyone, not just homosexuals.
Comments continue below
Jake | 12:07 p.m. June 25, 2009
Can we get real? This movement is driven by sexual orientation as a basis for
redefining marriage. It's not the Civil Rights Movement. Civil rights
referred to Constitutional rights guaranteed to all citizens. The right to
attend schools, hold jobs, take up residence, vote, and even participate in
public sporting events like any other citizen, were denied or abused on the
basis of race. Gays already have those rights. If someone loses their job, or
has property damaged or stolen, or is beaten or slandered or unlawfully
harrassed for being gay, that is a gross violation of rights. Even being rude to
someone for being gay is wrong, legal or not. I am appalled when I see those
rights violated, and I will defend them. But gay marriage is not a right,
it's a misnomer. Marriage was given to us by a caring God to be the loving
union between man and woman forever. We are complements to each other, far
beyond physical compatibility, and God knows it. He's trying to help us be
happy, not boss us around. You don't have to take advantage of his gifts,
but don't mock them by creating counterfeits.
re - Jake | 11:07 a.m | 12:08 p.m. June 25, 2009
["Many of the comments in here are addressed specifically to Mormons even
though the vote passed by majority in California and members of many other
churches were involved in the campaign"]
what you fail to address is that over half the money for pro- Prop8 advertising came from mormons, and was donated at the direct request of the mormon church. So in fact, the mormon church paid for ads that were purposely deceitful and full of untruths. I think that is a sin.
["I want to defend marriage and family as the basis of society. Families can succeed in many forms, but a marriage between a man and a woman in love is the strongest possible foundation."]
gays can have families. Gays marrying will not prevent men and women from getting married. 97% of people are heterosexual and if they marry it will be to the opposite sex. You achieve your stated goal. Why are you concerned about the other 3%? Do you really think by preventing them from marrying each other, they will marry someone of the opposite sex instead, to further your goal?
nothing is gained by preventing gay marriage.
what you fail to address is that over half the money for pro- Prop8 advertising came from mormons, and was donated at the direct request of the mormon church. So in fact, the mormon church paid for ads that were purposely deceitful and full of untruths. I think that is a sin.
["I want to defend marriage and family as the basis of society. Families can succeed in many forms, but a marriage between a man and a woman in love is the strongest possible foundation."]
gays can have families. Gays marrying will not prevent men and women from getting married. 97% of people are heterosexual and if they marry it will be to the opposite sex. You achieve your stated goal. Why are you concerned about the other 3%? Do you really think by preventing them from marrying each other, they will marry someone of the opposite sex instead, to further your goal?
nothing is gained by preventing gay marriage.
Re: Jake | 12:08 p.m. June 25, 2009
I have two points to make.
First: Marriage is a right. "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness." I assume your marriage has brought you endless happiness. Please allow me the right to pursue the same happiness that you have found. If the bundle of benefits that come with marriage are not a right, you wouldn't mind if someone came and asked you to give yours up, for the greater good of course.
Second: Where does the church involvement in Prop 8 fall into the three stated missions of the church, proclaim the gospel, redeem the dead, and perfect the saints?
I am guessing that the real reason the church doesn't want gays to marry is so they can keep saying "wickedness never was happiness" If this statement is true, let us get married and be miserable, at least give us the right to pursue happiness.
First: Marriage is a right. "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness." I assume your marriage has brought you endless happiness. Please allow me the right to pursue the same happiness that you have found. If the bundle of benefits that come with marriage are not a right, you wouldn't mind if someone came and asked you to give yours up, for the greater good of course.
Second: Where does the church involvement in Prop 8 fall into the three stated missions of the church, proclaim the gospel, redeem the dead, and perfect the saints?
I am guessing that the real reason the church doesn't want gays to marry is so they can keep saying "wickedness never was happiness" If this statement is true, let us get married and be miserable, at least give us the right to pursue happiness.
re: The Bottom Line | 12:08 p.m. June 25, 2009
"The vast majority of current medical/scientific thinking is that
homosexuality is genetic. I believe that thinking will become virtually
unanimous with genetic advancements in the future."
First, that's your opinion. Second, the vast majority of people believe in God and UFOs, but that doesn't mean they exist.
Here are the facts: heterosexual marriage is the only union that produces offspring (vital for society's survival), people with homosexual urges have exactly the same rights as everyone else, homosexual behavior can be 100% controlled by those experiencing homosexual urges (behavior is, after all, a choice), and "sexual satisfaction," "love," and "the right to be with person one loves" are not guaranteed in heterosexual marriage.
In light of these facts, it is not in society's best interest to encourage any sexual behavior (through marriage or any other kind of union) other than heterosexual. Society should remain completely neutral toward all non-monogamous, non-heterosexual behavior.
First, that's your opinion. Second, the vast majority of people believe in God and UFOs, but that doesn't mean they exist.
Here are the facts: heterosexual marriage is the only union that produces offspring (vital for society's survival), people with homosexual urges have exactly the same rights as everyone else, homosexual behavior can be 100% controlled by those experiencing homosexual urges (behavior is, after all, a choice), and "sexual satisfaction," "love," and "the right to be with person one loves" are not guaranteed in heterosexual marriage.
In light of these facts, it is not in society's best interest to encourage any sexual behavior (through marriage or any other kind of union) other than heterosexual. Society should remain completely neutral toward all non-monogamous, non-heterosexual behavior.
@re: The Bottom Line | 12:53 p.m. June 25, 2009
"Here are the facts: heterosexual marriage is the only union that produces
offspring (vital for society's survival)"
Read the Iowa Supreme court's decision. If you deny homosexuals marriage because they cannot procreate, you MUST deny marriage to any heterosexual couple who also cannot procreate per the 14th amendment to our constitution. Are you ready to stop all infertile couples from "marriage?" All older couples?
" people with homosexual urges have exactly the same rights as everyone else,"
How about their pursuit of happiness? Do you think they have this right?
"homosexual behavior can be 100% controlled by those experiencing homosexual urges (behavior is, after all, a choice), and "sexual satisfaction," "love," and "the right to be with person one loves" are not guaranteed in heterosexual marriage."
Why should they have to control something that is natural and satisfying to them. I know couples that have been together for decades. It is NOT ILLEGAL to have a homosexual lifestyle and, because of that, why should they be punished for YOUR beliefs?
Read the Iowa Supreme court's decision. If you deny homosexuals marriage because they cannot procreate, you MUST deny marriage to any heterosexual couple who also cannot procreate per the 14th amendment to our constitution. Are you ready to stop all infertile couples from "marriage?" All older couples?
" people with homosexual urges have exactly the same rights as everyone else,"
How about their pursuit of happiness? Do you think they have this right?
"homosexual behavior can be 100% controlled by those experiencing homosexual urges (behavior is, after all, a choice), and "sexual satisfaction," "love," and "the right to be with person one loves" are not guaranteed in heterosexual marriage."
Why should they have to control something that is natural and satisfying to them. I know couples that have been together for decades. It is NOT ILLEGAL to have a homosexual lifestyle and, because of that, why should they be punished for YOUR beliefs?
re - Jake | 12:07 p.m | 12:54 p.m. June 25, 2009
["Marriage was given to us by a caring God to be the loving union between
man and woman forever"]
marriage was created by man, and was an agreement between parents to wed their children in exchange for doweries. The people getting married had no say in it.
your problem is you think everything is created and ordained by God, which gives you an easy out and allows you to smugly deny people the same rights you enjoy.
my my - your god must be very proud of you...
marriage was created by man, and was an agreement between parents to wed their children in exchange for doweries. The people getting married had no say in it.
your problem is you think everything is created and ordained by God, which gives you an easy out and allows you to smugly deny people the same rights you enjoy.
my my - your god must be very proud of you...
Imagine | 2:02 p.m. June 25, 2009
Imagine being told at a young age (about 12) that God did not love you because
you were attracted to other men. It happened in a round-about way to me when a
well-meaning mother told her son in a car we were riding in the God did not love
gays.
Imagine trying to hold true to your religious principles for your entire life, while hearing people with whom you worship say demeaning things about people who have same-sex attraction, just like you do.
Imagine going through life knowing that you can't truly experience the type of love and relationships your other siblings have because for you it is wrong.
Imagine keeping secret something that is a part of who you truly are because you know that some of your "brothers and sisters in the gospel" will not accept you if that truth came out.
Imagine hearing the phrase "love the sinner, but hate the sin" over and over knowing that people are judging you a sinner.
How does it make you feel?
Imagine trying to hold true to your religious principles for your entire life, while hearing people with whom you worship say demeaning things about people who have same-sex attraction, just like you do.
Imagine going through life knowing that you can't truly experience the type of love and relationships your other siblings have because for you it is wrong.
Imagine keeping secret something that is a part of who you truly are because you know that some of your "brothers and sisters in the gospel" will not accept you if that truth came out.
Imagine hearing the phrase "love the sinner, but hate the sin" over and over knowing that people are judging you a sinner.
How does it make you feel?
Imagine, continued | 2:14 p.m. June 25, 2009
Imagine getting hit with the double whammy for choosing to abide by the
principles of your church. You choose to live a celibate life, but you also get
judged for being a single man. You hear comment all the time like "you
should just find a nice woman and settle down."
Imagine overhearing comments that it will be unfortunate that I will be missing in the celestial kingdom because I am not married to a woman.
Imagine feeling like a second-class citizen wherever you go because you hear derogatory comments about gays on a daily basis.
Imagine hearing people say you must not have enough faith, because if you did you would have changed by now.
Imagine being grouped together with rapists and child molesters because if you are attracted to other men, you must do those vile things.
Or...
Imagine living around people who have put aside their natural judgmental tendencies and love you for who you are, without feeling the need to remind you whether they think it's natural, right, or wrong.
Imagine overhearing comments that it will be unfortunate that I will be missing in the celestial kingdom because I am not married to a woman.
Imagine feeling like a second-class citizen wherever you go because you hear derogatory comments about gays on a daily basis.
Imagine hearing people say you must not have enough faith, because if you did you would have changed by now.
Imagine being grouped together with rapists and child molesters because if you are attracted to other men, you must do those vile things.
Or...
Imagine living around people who have put aside their natural judgmental tendencies and love you for who you are, without feeling the need to remind you whether they think it's natural, right, or wrong.
Michelle | 3:19 p.m. June 25, 2009
I believe in equal rights and I think consenting adults should have the option
of getting married. However, I don't think the LDS church should change
their stance on homosexuality. If that is what they believe then that is their
issue. I will just keep standing up peacefully for equal rights.
Candide | 4:04 p.m. June 25, 2009
There is nothing wrong with being gay. Why would I want to change my behavior?
My married life is no different that yours. I love my wife, take care of the
kids, mow the lawn, walk the dog. The only reason most people have in rejecting
gay behavior is some old book that is the word of man written by men. Your old
book has no sway with me and shouldn't have in our republic.
Balance? | 4:18 p.m. June 25, 2009
Is there some reason why the moderator(s) seem to allow every pro-gay comment
through but hold up a bunch of those from the opposing viewpoint? I've
tried to post two comments now, one of them twice, and neither has been allowed
through. They were not offensive, off topic, or anything else prohibited. This
site is worthless if the moderators skew the comments toward their own
viewpoints.
re: Balance? | 4:38 p.m. June 25, 2009
You're right. Considering that 5% or less of the population is
"gay," shouldn't the vast majority of comments be
"anti-gay?"
To imagine | 4:49 p.m. June 25, 2009
There are plenty of people with that same issue. I agree, very well put.
Anonymous | 5:04 p.m. June 25, 2009
"You're right. Considering that 5% or less of the population is
"gay," shouldn't the vast majority of comments be
"anti-gay?""
You are assuming that all heterosexuals are against gay marriage. They aren't. It is about a 50-50 slpit.
You are assuming that all heterosexuals are against gay marriage. They aren't. It is about a 50-50 slpit.
What? | 5:26 p.m. June 25, 2009
What started this thread anyway? Oh, it was about the percieved need of some
gays for the L.D.S. Church to apologize. The more productive stance would be to
move forward. It would be to have greater understanding on both sides. I think
that their are a few Mormons who think gays have some things to apologize for.
Asking someone to apologize is also accussing them. That doesn't work
either. Bandage up the wounds and move forward. Seek for understanding. Pity
doesn't help. I am sorry that feelings have been hury on both sides. It is
what it is.
Modern prophets 2 | 7:41 p.m. June 25, 2009
"Marriage between a man and a woman is ordained of God and that the family
is central to the Creators plan for the eternal destiny of His children.
"All human beingsmale and femaleare created in the image of God. Each is a beloved spirit son or daughter of heavenly parents, and, as such, each has a divine nature and destiny. Gender is an essential characteristic of individual premortal, mortal, and eternal identity and purpose.
"We warn that individuals who violate covenants of chastity, who abuse spouse or offspring, or who fail to fulfill family responsibilities will one day stand accountable before God. Further, we warn that the disintegration of the family will bring upon individuals, communities, and nations the calamities foretold by ancient and modern prophets."
- The Family: A Proclamation To The World
Notice the part about how gender is an essential characteristic, with eternal importance?!
And marriage between a man and a woman is ordained of God, and no other type of "marriage" is.
Amen.
"All human beingsmale and femaleare created in the image of God. Each is a beloved spirit son or daughter of heavenly parents, and, as such, each has a divine nature and destiny. Gender is an essential characteristic of individual premortal, mortal, and eternal identity and purpose.
"We warn that individuals who violate covenants of chastity, who abuse spouse or offspring, or who fail to fulfill family responsibilities will one day stand accountable before God. Further, we warn that the disintegration of the family will bring upon individuals, communities, and nations the calamities foretold by ancient and modern prophets."
- The Family: A Proclamation To The World
Notice the part about how gender is an essential characteristic, with eternal importance?!
And marriage between a man and a woman is ordained of God, and no other type of "marriage" is.
Amen.
To Imagine | 9:57 p.m. June 25, 2009
Imagine yourself standing before God and he tells you. I love you my Son and you
shall be rewarded according to your deeds, but I cannot change my commandments.
If I were to do so, what would I say to those who have faithfully kept them?
To: Imagine | 11:38 p.m. June 25, 2009
People throughout history have lacked understanding of differences, and unfairly treated those perceived as "other."
We have progressed from dark ages, and will continue to progress. Study and love will enlighten us.
Follow your inborn light -- you are beloved by your creator.
Vince | 6:32 a.m. June 26, 2009
To Imagine,
Yes, that's pretty much how it is.
re: The Bottom Line | 12:08 p.m. June 25, 2009
You Wrote,
"Here are the facts: heterosexual marriage is the only union that produces offspring (vital for society's survival),"
In fact, it is not.
76% of families in the United States are something other than a heterosexual marriage with a mom and a dad who never divorce and with children.
How do you figure that marriage is a prerequisite to having children? or that having children is a requirement for marriage? Isn't that an individual decision independent of marriage?
Further, you wrote,
"people with homosexual urges have the same rights as everyone else"
How do you figure?
If gay people do not love someone of the opposite sex, but they have the right to say, a gay man marry a straight woman, how is that a right?
It would no more be a right than you, let's say, as a straight man marrying a gay man. It's not for you, so why would you want it?
Yes, that's pretty much how it is.
re: The Bottom Line | 12:08 p.m. June 25, 2009
You Wrote,
"Here are the facts: heterosexual marriage is the only union that produces offspring (vital for society's survival),"
In fact, it is not.
76% of families in the United States are something other than a heterosexual marriage with a mom and a dad who never divorce and with children.
How do you figure that marriage is a prerequisite to having children? or that having children is a requirement for marriage? Isn't that an individual decision independent of marriage?
Further, you wrote,
"people with homosexual urges have the same rights as everyone else"
How do you figure?
If gay people do not love someone of the opposite sex, but they have the right to say, a gay man marry a straight woman, how is that a right?
It would no more be a right than you, let's say, as a straight man marrying a gay man. It's not for you, so why would you want it?
Vince | 7:03 a.m. June 26, 2009
Else, what other options does anyone have?
Current policy does not work.
Most gays within the Church leave the Church, upwards of 80%.
The number alone is indicative that something is amiss. It does not necessarily coincide with "gays are welcome inside the Church."
But we dismiss this as "well, they just need to try harder to keep the commandments." It sounds like a sure recipe for How to Lose Gays in the Church and alienate those outside of it.
Current policy does not work.
Most gays within the Church leave the Church, upwards of 80%.
The number alone is indicative that something is amiss. It does not necessarily coincide with "gays are welcome inside the Church."
But we dismiss this as "well, they just need to try harder to keep the commandments." It sounds like a sure recipe for How to Lose Gays in the Church and alienate those outside of it.
Re: Suicide 11:41 a.m. | 7:45 a.m. June 26, 2009
"The LDS church tells people from birth that they are the only one true
church, and that only marriage gets you to the highest heaven. Gays, who cant
help who they are, are rejected from their lifelong church. Is it any wonder
some commit suicide? The church has sinned by rejecting its children and causing
them to die."
The LDS church teaches that temple marriage is necessary to get to the highest section of the Celestial Kingdom, yes. But it also teaches that there are many people who will not have the chance to marry in this lifetime for one reason or another, and that they will be provided for in the next life. Nobody who lives a faithful life and does their very best in all things, and only fails to marry, will be kept out of the "highest heaven." It will all be taken care of someday. The LDS church has been quite clear on this matter. No, it's not easy or fun to live a life of celibacy, but there are millions of people in the world who do it. Asking single members to live the law of chastity is not rejection by the church.
The LDS church teaches that temple marriage is necessary to get to the highest section of the Celestial Kingdom, yes. But it also teaches that there are many people who will not have the chance to marry in this lifetime for one reason or another, and that they will be provided for in the next life. Nobody who lives a faithful life and does their very best in all things, and only fails to marry, will be kept out of the "highest heaven." It will all be taken care of someday. The LDS church has been quite clear on this matter. No, it's not easy or fun to live a life of celibacy, but there are millions of people in the world who do it. Asking single members to live the law of chastity is not rejection by the church.
To What? | 8:52 a.m. June 26, 2009
"What started this thread anyway? Oh, it was about the percieved need of
some gays for the L.D.S. Church to apologize."
You didn't read the article. It is two MEMBERS of the church that preceive that the church needs to apologize. Geesh.
You didn't read the article. It is two MEMBERS of the church that preceive that the church needs to apologize. Geesh.
Jake | 9:18 a.m. June 26, 2009
To Imagine (and others):
I am appalled that someone told you that God doesn't love gays. God loves each of us - individually. We are his children. He knows our thoughts, our hearts, and our weak spots. He takes everything into account. If my belief in a loving God is correct, then he will work with you for your happiness. Don't turn your back on him for those who claim to despise you on his behalf. My belief in marriage is not meant to put down gays or declare them second-class citizens. I have no desire for the former and no belief in the latter. Gays in the minds of many are often treated as a single-minded counter culture rather than a composition of free-thinking, worthwhile individuals (the same happens to Mormons, incidentally). Gays suffer ridicule, humiliation, prejudice, and even violence for their orientation. Such mistreatment is disgusting, and I will fight it. I vote to uphold my belief in marriage, but I will not add my voice to those who think that gays are disgusting and ought to be scorned. The Church is deeply saddened over those who commit suicide. Please don't do it.
I am appalled that someone told you that God doesn't love gays. God loves each of us - individually. We are his children. He knows our thoughts, our hearts, and our weak spots. He takes everything into account. If my belief in a loving God is correct, then he will work with you for your happiness. Don't turn your back on him for those who claim to despise you on his behalf. My belief in marriage is not meant to put down gays or declare them second-class citizens. I have no desire for the former and no belief in the latter. Gays in the minds of many are often treated as a single-minded counter culture rather than a composition of free-thinking, worthwhile individuals (the same happens to Mormons, incidentally). Gays suffer ridicule, humiliation, prejudice, and even violence for their orientation. Such mistreatment is disgusting, and I will fight it. I vote to uphold my belief in marriage, but I will not add my voice to those who think that gays are disgusting and ought to be scorned. The Church is deeply saddened over those who commit suicide. Please don't do it.
re: Vince @ 7:03 | 9:28 a.m. June 26, 2009
If people who want to or do practice homosexuality don't like the LDS
church's position on homosexual marriage or homosexuality behavior, nobody
is forcing them to belong to the church, adhere to its beliefs, or remain
members.
People who practice adultery and fornication are welcome inside the church, just like people who practice homosexuality. And like the behavior of people who practice homosexuality, their behavior is discouraged too.
The LDS church isn't interested in embracing behavior it considers deviant. It is interested in helping those who struggle with urges to choose to commit behavior it considers deviant, and promoting what it believes are the teachings of God.
The sexual urges a person experiences are not part of that person's identity. A person's identity is determined by his/her inborn characteristics and the choices he/she makes.
People who practice adultery and fornication are welcome inside the church, just like people who practice homosexuality. And like the behavior of people who practice homosexuality, their behavior is discouraged too.
The LDS church isn't interested in embracing behavior it considers deviant. It is interested in helping those who struggle with urges to choose to commit behavior it considers deviant, and promoting what it believes are the teachings of God.
The sexual urges a person experiences are not part of that person's identity. A person's identity is determined by his/her inborn characteristics and the choices he/she makes.
gay vs religion | 10:03 a.m. June 26, 2009
the problem is, and always will be, that the translators of the bible disagreed
with homosexuality. So they wrote their interpretations of certain passages as
anti-homosexual, even though the bible had nothing to do with that. In fact,
several apostles were gay, and some of Jesus' best friends were gay. Even
in the ancient Greek language, there is a specific word for gay, and it
isn't found in any of the old manuscripts.
so your issue is with the translators, not with gays. and God believes in free agency, and loves everyone. So ask yourself - is God going to frown upon gays, or is He going to frown upon those that would persecute gays? Because I believe it is the latter, and by promoting a bias against gays (as most of you here are doing) you are in fact making yourselves worse in God's eyes than the people you are persecuting... in fact, you are sinning.
good luck with that in your "true church".
so your issue is with the translators, not with gays. and God believes in free agency, and loves everyone. So ask yourself - is God going to frown upon gays, or is He going to frown upon those that would persecute gays? Because I believe it is the latter, and by promoting a bias against gays (as most of you here are doing) you are in fact making yourselves worse in God's eyes than the people you are persecuting... in fact, you are sinning.
good luck with that in your "true church".
JAYEG | 10:07 a.m. June 26, 2009
Re: fred | 6:02 a.m. June 23, 2009
The LDS Church once sought to change the definition of marriage from one man and one woman...to one man and many women.
The leaders of the Church, and the general membership once took mighty oaths that they would never abandon the practice of plural marriage, which was the new and everlasting covenant.
They swore this oath, believing that they would suffer eternal damnation should they ever abandon this practice.
Yet they officially abandoned the practice after only 57 years after Joseph Smith first married 16 year old Fanny Alger in 1833.
I'm afraid you're incorrect, Fred, the LDS Church HAS changed it's practices and policies a number of times...and specifically it's stance regarding homosexuality.
The LDS Church once sought to change the definition of marriage from one man and one woman...to one man and many women.
The leaders of the Church, and the general membership once took mighty oaths that they would never abandon the practice of plural marriage, which was the new and everlasting covenant.
They swore this oath, believing that they would suffer eternal damnation should they ever abandon this practice.
Yet they officially abandoned the practice after only 57 years after Joseph Smith first married 16 year old Fanny Alger in 1833.
I'm afraid you're incorrect, Fred, the LDS Church HAS changed it's practices and policies a number of times...and specifically it's stance regarding homosexuality.
JAYEG | 10:21 a.m. June 26, 2009
Re: Think Again | 6:55 a.m. June 23, 2009
So far as Church doctrine and Church policies are concerned...the LDS Church HAS, indeed, abandoned certain policies and practices in the aftermath of pressure from the Federal Government.
Reference plural marriage, and the fact that the Manifesto was 'revealed' shortly after the Federal Government threatened to confiscate all Church lands, finances, properties and buildings unless the practice of polygamy was abandoned.
Reference also Spencer Kimball's 'revelation' regarding restoring priesthood privileges to blacks shortly after he was subpoenaed to appear in court regarding the pending lawsuit in the matter of a black boyscout who was not allowed to hold a position of leadership because he could not hold the priesthood.
So far as Church doctrine and Church policies are concerned...the LDS Church HAS, indeed, abandoned certain policies and practices in the aftermath of pressure from the Federal Government.
Reference plural marriage, and the fact that the Manifesto was 'revealed' shortly after the Federal Government threatened to confiscate all Church lands, finances, properties and buildings unless the practice of polygamy was abandoned.
Reference also Spencer Kimball's 'revelation' regarding restoring priesthood privileges to blacks shortly after he was subpoenaed to appear in court regarding the pending lawsuit in the matter of a black boyscout who was not allowed to hold a position of leadership because he could not hold the priesthood.
LDS4gayMarriage | 10:23 a.m. June 26, 2009
To re - Dear Haters | 11:48 a.m. June 24, 2009 -
"You are a irreligious zealot and you should stop pushing your bizarre ideas onto other people.
Interesting that you're the only one who gets to decide who should state their views and who shouldn't. Ever hear of the First Amendment? It's in the Constitution. You can look it up."
LDS - Unfortunately, the Church hasn't heard of the 14th Amendment which requires that all be given "EQUAL Protection of the laws". Our unique form of marriage was eliminated because the majority decided to impose its version of a what a proper marriage is supposed to be. Now the shoe is on the other foot and we are the ones goring another's ox instead of us having ours gored as was done 120 years ago. I guess it's OK if WE LDS do it as long as no one does it to us.
The Church also seems to have forgotten 1 Cor. 10:29 where Paul condemns those who try to impose their morals on others in opposition to C-I-V-I-L rights. Why are we doing so?
"You are a irreligious zealot and you should stop pushing your bizarre ideas onto other people.
Interesting that you're the only one who gets to decide who should state their views and who shouldn't. Ever hear of the First Amendment? It's in the Constitution. You can look it up."
LDS - Unfortunately, the Church hasn't heard of the 14th Amendment which requires that all be given "EQUAL Protection of the laws". Our unique form of marriage was eliminated because the majority decided to impose its version of a what a proper marriage is supposed to be. Now the shoe is on the other foot and we are the ones goring another's ox instead of us having ours gored as was done 120 years ago. I guess it's OK if WE LDS do it as long as no one does it to us.
The Church also seems to have forgotten 1 Cor. 10:29 where Paul condemns those who try to impose their morals on others in opposition to C-I-V-I-L rights. Why are we doing so?
TO -re: Vince @ 7:03 | 9:28 a.m | 10:26 a.m. June 26, 2009
["A person's identity is determined by his/her inborn characteristics
and the choices he/she makes"]
and a gay person's "inborn characteristics" is to be with someone of the same sex. so it is part of their identity. so your statement "The sexual urges a person experiences are not part of that person's identity" is entirely false.
you contradict yourself when you say both statements together as you did.
and a gay person's "inborn characteristics" is to be with someone of the same sex. so it is part of their identity. so your statement "The sexual urges a person experiences are not part of that person's identity" is entirely false.
you contradict yourself when you say both statements together as you did.
JAYEG | 10:29 a.m. June 26, 2009
Re: Anonymous | 7:08 a.m. June 23, 2009
Are you under the impression that gay people are unable to reproduce?
I'll have to run that one by the lesbian couple who live a few doors down. Between them, they have 3 children.
And I'm sure my mother in law's gay neighbors (one of which is an ex-LDS Bishop and the father of 4) will be interested in knowing this.
Are you under the impression that gay people are unable to reproduce?
I'll have to run that one by the lesbian couple who live a few doors down. Between them, they have 3 children.
And I'm sure my mother in law's gay neighbors (one of which is an ex-LDS Bishop and the father of 4) will be interested in knowing this.
LDS4GayMarriage | 10:30 a.m. June 26, 2009
@ Dave K | 1:20 p.m. June 24, 2009 -
"And that is the reason people don't want gay people to get married. If someone can get married, you can no longer claim its immoral. "
LDS - Exactly...that's why we need to outlaw ALL sin like drinking coffee, shopping on Sundays and wearing bikinis.
"And that is the reason people don't want gay people to get married. If someone can get married, you can no longer claim its immoral. "
LDS - Exactly...that's why we need to outlaw ALL sin like drinking coffee, shopping on Sundays and wearing bikinis.
JAYEG | 10:37 a.m. June 26, 2009
It would be interesting to see what would happen if the situation were somehow
magically reversed and heterosexuality was considered by the majority to be
immoral.
Consider this...a hetero member of the faith must refrain from committing fornication and/or adultery just as a homosexual member must in order to retain full status as a member in good standing.
But the hetero member may marry, thus sanctifying any sexual activities with his spouse...while the homosexual member is forbidden marriage, which would sanctify any sexual activities with his/her partner.
Many heterosexual members, and leaders, advocate that all the homosexual has to do in order to retain their status is to remain chaste, and alone throughout their entire lives.
I find the inequality in these rules to be oppressive.
Consider this...a hetero member of the faith must refrain from committing fornication and/or adultery just as a homosexual member must in order to retain full status as a member in good standing.
But the hetero member may marry, thus sanctifying any sexual activities with his spouse...while the homosexual member is forbidden marriage, which would sanctify any sexual activities with his/her partner.
Many heterosexual members, and leaders, advocate that all the homosexual has to do in order to retain their status is to remain chaste, and alone throughout their entire lives.
I find the inequality in these rules to be oppressive.
JAYEG | 10:49 a.m. June 26, 2009
Re: Acole | 8:34 a.m. June 23, 2009
If you're going to quote from the Book of Mormon...then perhaps you might do well to read what Jacob had to say about plurality of wives, and concubines.
According to Jacob, the Lord considered the practice of taking plural wives and concubines to be an abomination in His sight, and the cause of great unhappiness for the women and children.
Even the Lamanites, at the time, remained obedient in taking one wife per man.
Interesting...how so shortly after publishing the BOM, and also discussing how God ordained marriage to be between one man and one woman...Joseph Smith turned right around and claimed that God was commanding the Saints to practice that particular abomination.
If you're going to quote from the Book of Mormon...then perhaps you might do well to read what Jacob had to say about plurality of wives, and concubines.
According to Jacob, the Lord considered the practice of taking plural wives and concubines to be an abomination in His sight, and the cause of great unhappiness for the women and children.
Even the Lamanites, at the time, remained obedient in taking one wife per man.
Interesting...how so shortly after publishing the BOM, and also discussing how God ordained marriage to be between one man and one woman...Joseph Smith turned right around and claimed that God was commanding the Saints to practice that particular abomination.
LDS4GayMarriage. | 10:52 a.m. June 26, 2009
Jake | 5:09 p.m. June 24, 2009 -
"Every citizen is within his or her rights to stand behind and contribute to causes without fear of retribution."
LDS - I always thought that you are free to choose your actions, but not free to choose the consequences of that action. We LDS fired the 1st shot in Prop. 8. We also threw the first punch regarding Prop.22. Sure, it was wrong for the militants to deface Church property, but we LDS share at least some of the blame.
"Every citizen is within his or her rights to stand behind and contribute to causes without fear of retribution."
LDS - I always thought that you are free to choose your actions, but not free to choose the consequences of that action. We LDS fired the 1st shot in Prop. 8. We also threw the first punch regarding Prop.22. Sure, it was wrong for the militants to deface Church property, but we LDS share at least some of the blame.
JAYEG | 10:54 a.m. June 26, 2009
Re: Absolute | 9:10 a.m. June 23, 2009
While the sins of the cities of the plain included sexual sins of every nature, homosexuality was not the sole reason for God's wrath. Sloth, greed, avarice, failure to share of their wealth and substance with the impoverished among them, and failure to show hospitality to the stranger at the gate were among the sins of S&G which led to God's wrath, and their ultimate destruction.
While the sins of the cities of the plain included sexual sins of every nature, homosexuality was not the sole reason for God's wrath. Sloth, greed, avarice, failure to share of their wealth and substance with the impoverished among them, and failure to show hospitality to the stranger at the gate were among the sins of S&G which led to God's wrath, and their ultimate destruction.
JAYEG | 11:06 a.m. June 26, 2009
Re:Acole | 8:34 a.m. June 23, 2009
When the disciples of Jesus Christ asked Him what the chiefest of all the commandments were...He answered, saying...'That you love one another even as I have loved you.'
He also spoke regarding judgment, and explained that in whatever manner we judged one another...we would also be judged accordingly.
If you are unwilling to be gentle and accepting with those who differ from you...will you still expect the Lord to be gentle and accepting of you?
When the disciples of Jesus Christ asked Him what the chiefest of all the commandments were...He answered, saying...'That you love one another even as I have loved you.'
He also spoke regarding judgment, and explained that in whatever manner we judged one another...we would also be judged accordingly.
If you are unwilling to be gentle and accepting with those who differ from you...will you still expect the Lord to be gentle and accepting of you?
JAYEG | 11:12 a.m. June 26, 2009
Re:bigsamoan | 9:19 a.m. June 23, 2009
The majority of your comment belies your claim that you have nothing against homosexuals.
And even the leaders of the Church have admitted that while some scientific research has indicated that homosexuality does not have genetic causation...other research indicates that it does...and the leaders have admonished the general membership that much more research is necessary before reaching a conclusion either way.
As for me...I don't believe that gay marriage will affect my marriage one way or another.
The majority of your comment belies your claim that you have nothing against homosexuals.
And even the leaders of the Church have admitted that while some scientific research has indicated that homosexuality does not have genetic causation...other research indicates that it does...and the leaders have admonished the general membership that much more research is necessary before reaching a conclusion either way.
As for me...I don't believe that gay marriage will affect my marriage one way or another.
to - LDS4GayMarriage | 10:30 a.m | 11:18 a.m. June 26, 2009
["that's why we need to outlaw ALL sin like drinking coffee, shopping
on Sundays and wearing bikinis."]
you were kidding, right? drinking coffee isn't really a sin for you people, is it? or wearing a bikini? how can shopping on Sunday be a sin?
I would think contributing to a deceptive ad campaign to restrict the rights of others would be a much bigger sin than anything you mentioned. I don't even see how drinking coffee could possibly be a sin...
I guess sin is in the eye of the beholder, cuz God certainly doesn't think coffee is a sin - I imagine Jesus drank coffee, as hard as he worked...
you were kidding, right? drinking coffee isn't really a sin for you people, is it? or wearing a bikini? how can shopping on Sunday be a sin?
I would think contributing to a deceptive ad campaign to restrict the rights of others would be a much bigger sin than anything you mentioned. I don't even see how drinking coffee could possibly be a sin...
I guess sin is in the eye of the beholder, cuz God certainly doesn't think coffee is a sin - I imagine Jesus drank coffee, as hard as he worked...
Stacie | 11:35 a.m. June 26, 2009
It depends on your belief as to what the purpose of life is. In the LDS
community, life has a meaning and a part of that meeting is to raise families to
be with forever and to grow. As of now no homosexual relationship can produce
their own children. Thus, the purpose of life is frustrated.
Individuals are attacking a religious belief because they think that the members are intolerant, but they only see what these individuals are doing, they do not comprehend the actual belief. It is at this misconception that contention rises. Perhaps if this misconception was understood it would be recognized that the first amendment of the LDS community is being greatly attacked.
To clarify: everyone is allowed to maintain their beliefs without persecution. Every individual is allowed to vote according to the dictates of their heart. Bullying those who choose to vote in opposition to an individuals view of 'correct' is unconstitutional and extremely junior-high-ish.
Individuals are attacking a religious belief because they think that the members are intolerant, but they only see what these individuals are doing, they do not comprehend the actual belief. It is at this misconception that contention rises. Perhaps if this misconception was understood it would be recognized that the first amendment of the LDS community is being greatly attacked.
To clarify: everyone is allowed to maintain their beliefs without persecution. Every individual is allowed to vote according to the dictates of their heart. Bullying those who choose to vote in opposition to an individuals view of 'correct' is unconstitutional and extremely junior-high-ish.
LDS4GayMarriage | 11:35 a.m. June 26, 2009
@re: The Bottom Line | 12:53 p.m. June 25, 2009
"Read the Iowa Supreme court's decision. If you deny homosexuals marriage because they cannot procreate, you MUST deny marriage to any heterosexual couple who also cannot procreate per the 14th amendment to our constitution. Are you ready to stop all infertile couples from "marriage?" All older couples?"
LDS - Please read the articles on that ruling on our org's site. I Challenge ANYONE to read the decision and show us why/where it went wrong. Good Luck.
"Read the Iowa Supreme court's decision. If you deny homosexuals marriage because they cannot procreate, you MUST deny marriage to any heterosexual couple who also cannot procreate per the 14th amendment to our constitution. Are you ready to stop all infertile couples from "marriage?" All older couples?"
LDS - Please read the articles on that ruling on our org's site. I Challenge ANYONE to read the decision and show us why/where it went wrong. Good Luck.
LDS4GayMarriage | 11:43 a.m. June 26, 2009
Balance? | 4:18 p.m. June 25, 2009
"Is there some reason why the moderator(s) seem to allow every pro-gay comment through but hold up a bunch of those from the opposing viewpoint? I've tried to post two comments now, one of them twice, and neither has been allowed through. They were not offensive, off topic, or anything else prohibited. This site is worthless if the moderators skew the comments toward their own viewpoints."
That's funny since the moderators deleted 2-3 of my comments in favor of allowing gays to have legal/secular marriage. There was no name calling, foul language, etc... I guess my logic and evidence was too much for them to deal with.
"Is there some reason why the moderator(s) seem to allow every pro-gay comment through but hold up a bunch of those from the opposing viewpoint? I've tried to post two comments now, one of them twice, and neither has been allowed through. They were not offensive, off topic, or anything else prohibited. This site is worthless if the moderators skew the comments toward their own viewpoints."
That's funny since the moderators deleted 2-3 of my comments in favor of allowing gays to have legal/secular marriage. There was no name calling, foul language, etc... I guess my logic and evidence was too much for them to deal with.
To 'LDS apology ' | 11:44 a.m. June 26, 2009
wow. that was quite the stretch. so if I have a Word of Wisdom problem and
I've tried and tried to quit (drinking, smoking, coffee, or whatever) and I
can't beat the addiction because it's become a part of who I am, and
my Bishop being the faithful steward he was called to be denies me my Temple
Recommend because I refuse to keep the basic commandments and I decide to take
my life over it, you're saying it's the Church's fault?!? Holy
Smokes.
Let me ask you, do you sustain the Leaders of the Church?
Let me ask you, do you sustain the Leaders of the Church?
LDS4GayMarriage | 11:49 a.m. June 26, 2009
"Notice the part about how gender is an essential characteristic, with
eternal importance?!
And marriage between a man and a woman is ordained of God, and no other type of "marriage" is.
Amen. "
LDS - and this allows the Church to justify infringing upon the rights and liberties of others? When was the last time the leaders read 1 Cor. 10:29 which condemns that? See also D&C 134:4. I would sure love to hear a GA explain how the Church didn't violate 1 Cor. 10:29 in supporting Prop.8 without it depending upon what the definition of "is" is.
And marriage between a man and a woman is ordained of God, and no other type of "marriage" is.
Amen. "
LDS - and this allows the Church to justify infringing upon the rights and liberties of others? When was the last time the leaders read 1 Cor. 10:29 which condemns that? See also D&C 134:4. I would sure love to hear a GA explain how the Church didn't violate 1 Cor. 10:29 in supporting Prop.8 without it depending upon what the definition of "is" is.
LDS4gaymarriage | 11:59 a.m. June 26, 2009
"people with homosexual urges have the same rights as everyone
else"
huh?..perhaps they are like the people in the South who were not allowed to marry the consenting adult of their choice, if they were of another race.
Banning marriage based on race or orientation comes from the majority imposing their SUBJEECTIVE morality upon society, thereby minimizing freedom and agency. D&C 101:76-80 says that the purpose of the US Constitution is to MAXIMIZE individual agency, choice, and accountability. Laws that prohibit anything that is not OBJECTIVELY wrong (harms the person, property or rights of others) is wrong.
huh?..perhaps they are like the people in the South who were not allowed to marry the consenting adult of their choice, if they were of another race.
Banning marriage based on race or orientation comes from the majority imposing their SUBJEECTIVE morality upon society, thereby minimizing freedom and agency. D&C 101:76-80 says that the purpose of the US Constitution is to MAXIMIZE individual agency, choice, and accountability. Laws that prohibit anything that is not OBJECTIVELY wrong (harms the person, property or rights of others) is wrong.
Re: Vince @ 7:03 | 12:01 p.m. June 26, 2009
Best post on here so far. I see someone tried to refute your logic and facts,
but their argument didn't hold any water. Nice post.
Imagine | 12:12 p.m. June 26, 2009
"Imagine yourself standing before God and he tells you. I love you my Son
and you shall be rewarded according to your deeds, but I cannot change my
commandments. If I were to do so, what would I say to those who have faithfully
kept them?"
I think you missed the entire point of my post. Did I once say that I engage in sexual activity of any kind? I don't think so. What commandments did I mention I am breaking? I am tired of people just assuming that because I am the way I am I must be sinning.
On the flip side, imagine yourself before God, and he says "I love my child, but it was not your place to judge my children. You will get your just reward."
I think you missed the entire point of my post. Did I once say that I engage in sexual activity of any kind? I don't think so. What commandments did I mention I am breaking? I am tired of people just assuming that because I am the way I am I must be sinning.
On the flip side, imagine yourself before God, and he says "I love my child, but it was not your place to judge my children. You will get your just reward."
Anonymous | 12:20 p.m. June 26, 2009
to - LDS4GayMarriage | 10:30 a.m | 11:18 a.m. June 26, 2009
["that's why we need to outlaw ALL sin like drinking coffee, shopping on Sundays and wearing bikinis."] -
"you were kidding, right? drinking coffee isn't really a sin for you people, is it? or wearing a bikini? how can shopping on Sunday be a sin?"
LDS - I was being sarcastic. The fact that we don't campaign to outlaw all vices shows that something being a sin per our doctrine is NOT justification to outlaw it.
"I would think contributing to a deceptive ad campaign to restrict the rights of others would be a much bigger sin than anything you mentioned."
LDS - Agreed. Go to our org's site and see responces to the publicized lies LDS money went to publish. We owe the voters of CA an apology for our deceptions.
["that's why we need to outlaw ALL sin like drinking coffee, shopping on Sundays and wearing bikinis."] -
"you were kidding, right? drinking coffee isn't really a sin for you people, is it? or wearing a bikini? how can shopping on Sunday be a sin?"
LDS - I was being sarcastic. The fact that we don't campaign to outlaw all vices shows that something being a sin per our doctrine is NOT justification to outlaw it.
"I would think contributing to a deceptive ad campaign to restrict the rights of others would be a much bigger sin than anything you mentioned."
LDS - Agreed. Go to our org's site and see responces to the publicized lies LDS money went to publish. We owe the voters of CA an apology for our deceptions.
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I was ex-ed for adultery. That is the way it should be according to scripture. It was the highest price I ever paid for anything in this life and the next, but it is as God said.
That was wrong, and homosexuality is also wrong. God can't be blown around by the winds of grass roots thinking.
He is the same, yesterday,today and tomorrow. Good book said so.
If you don't stand up for what you believe, you don't believe.!